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Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Anty
- Start date
Not a fan of Acid Armor personally, as Mono Psychic coverage sucks. I'd rather use Signal Beam or HP Ground in that slot.
i mean mono psychic coverage isn't bad when there's only one dark type and you beat every steel type bar maybe klang anyway
anyway update time:
Probopass from A to A-
Dwebble from B to C
Zweilous from B to B-
Metang from B- to B
Politoed from B- to B
Purugly from B- to B
Heatmor from C+ to C
Tropius from D to E
Wailord from E to D
anyway update time:
Probopass from A to A-
Dwebble from B to C
Zweilous from B to B-
Metang from B- to B
Politoed from B- to B
Purugly from B- to B
Heatmor from C+ to C
Tropius from D to E
Wailord from E to D
Vigoroth B+ --> A- (probably above clef at least)
It's not uncommon to see someone say "oml vigoroth is broken", and for good reason. This thing is a monster to deal with, and can absolutely destroy balance teams that aren't really prepared for it. Taunt+Bulk up is pretty godly and breaks past like everything not ghost, can help with both physical and special tanking of tons of stupid random hits, beats fucking ursaring if it bulks up 1v1 with no defense investment...it's dumb. It does suffer from not being able to touch ghosts, being vulnerable to status and strong attackers, and needing to set up, but you can PP stall slower missy if you really want and run facade and it'll still put in work for you. I'm too tired to make a good post, but it basically took me right through the suspect tour ez so yeah this should rise
mag edit: i think that's just me lol
It's not uncommon to see someone say "oml vigoroth is broken", and for good reason. This thing is a monster to deal with, and can absolutely destroy balance teams that aren't really prepared for it. Taunt+Bulk up is pretty godly and breaks past like everything not ghost, can help with both physical and special tanking of tons of stupid random hits, beats fucking ursaring if it bulks up 1v1 with no defense investment...it's dumb. It does suffer from not being able to touch ghosts, being vulnerable to status and strong attackers, and needing to set up, but you can PP stall slower missy if you really want and run facade and it'll still put in work for you. I'm too tired to make a good post, but it basically took me right through the suspect tour ez so yeah this should rise
mag edit: i think that's just me lol
I don't want to make changes based on the suspect vote so here is this:
Trapinch unranked to D:
The other day when I jokingly mentioned diglett in the chat as a dodrio partner, Tect mentioned trapinch and since I have heard several people before talk about and use it I felt like I should try it and weirdly enough it isn't that awful. The set is eq/crunch/quick attack/toxic and max hp and sdef EVs + adamant (or a more offensive set could be used iirc), and with eviolite it is surprisingly bulky (it has 45 defensive stats compared to vibrava's 50). Calcs for reference:
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 110-131 (37.4 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 110-131 (37.4 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And that is w/o careful :O. It can trap a ton of things like non-rotom electric types, stunfisk, probo, grumpig, and kadabra. Some of these it can even switch in on (basically all of those other than offensive grumpig), and it can even weaken more pokes like golem, etc. I have found it pairs nicely with dodrio (and most likely other flying and electric types) since it can trap electric/rock/steel types. Although it might often only get one trap a game, that is often enough for a specific team mate to put in a lot more work. Trapinch perfectly fits in d-rank, as it is a very niche pokemon capable of removing specific threats for team mates to sweep. I tried it a bit on the ladder and its a great charmelon check! (Well one game I managed to bop a raichu which meant dodrio could spam scarf brave bird)
Also some of the lower ranks could be reshuffled a bit, as like cherrim/illimuse are really niche so aren't on the level of like wigglytuff which actually has a much more defined niche.
Trapinch unranked to D:
The other day when I jokingly mentioned diglett in the chat as a dodrio partner, Tect mentioned trapinch and since I have heard several people before talk about and use it I felt like I should try it and weirdly enough it isn't that awful. The set is eq/crunch/quick attack/toxic and max hp and sdef EVs + adamant (or a more offensive set could be used iirc), and with eviolite it is surprisingly bulky (it has 45 defensive stats compared to vibrava's 50). Calcs for reference:
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 110-131 (37.4 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 110-131 (37.4 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And that is w/o careful :O. It can trap a ton of things like non-rotom electric types, stunfisk, probo, grumpig, and kadabra. Some of these it can even switch in on (basically all of those other than offensive grumpig), and it can even weaken more pokes like golem, etc. I have found it pairs nicely with dodrio (and most likely other flying and electric types) since it can trap electric/rock/steel types. Although it might often only get one trap a game, that is often enough for a specific team mate to put in a lot more work. Trapinch perfectly fits in d-rank, as it is a very niche pokemon capable of removing specific threats for team mates to sweep. I tried it a bit on the ladder and its a great charmelon check! (Well one game I managed to bop a raichu which meant dodrio could spam scarf brave bird)
Also some of the lower ranks could be reshuffled a bit, as like cherrim/illimuse are really niche so aren't on the level of like wigglytuff which actually has a much more defined niche.
I would like to see a bit of gameplay on this. It sounds like Trapinch requires a bit of prediction or a bit of sacrifice. It has a nice attack stat though.
So, heres a replay of RawMelon and I involving Trapinch...First turn hax were a bit of a pain, but Trapinch did as advertised. Taking a crit super effective HP from Zebstrika at that!!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-258442418
#Free Free for C, sí?
Butterfree is currently very underrated and I can see why. It doesnt have the best speed tier and its rock weakness demands proper team support. But, with all this said, the Pro's may outway the Con's in many situations.
I've been using two sets: Sleep+Quiver and SubRoost. Both are very effective sets and honestly aren't too difficult to set-up. Tinted Lens is pretty good as abilities go and is Free's main niche, allowing it to tear through many pokemon with only certain spdef walls such as Swalot @ AV, Lickilicky and Regice being able to stand up to a +1 Bug Buzz.
There isnt anything else that can truly do what Butterfree does (lol Mothim). With a timid nature at +1, Free outspeeds every pokemon besides scarfers/Ninjask/Electrode(lol). It deserves a little more love then its given, in my opinion.
Credit to Tect for helping me out with the post
Butterfree is currently very underrated and I can see why. It doesnt have the best speed tier and its rock weakness demands proper team support. But, with all this said, the Pro's may outway the Con's in many situations.
I've been using two sets: Sleep+Quiver and SubRoost. Both are very effective sets and honestly aren't too difficult to set-up. Tinted Lens is pretty good as abilities go and is Free's main niche, allowing it to tear through many pokemon with only certain spdef walls such as Swalot @ AV, Lickilicky and Regice being able to stand up to a +1 Bug Buzz.
There isnt anything else that can truly do what Butterfree does (lol Mothim). With a timid nature at +1, Free outspeeds every pokemon besides scarfers/Ninjask/Electrode(lol). It deserves a little more love then its given, in my opinion.
Credit to Tect for helping me out with the post
Ok so I'm gonna go ahead and make some noms of my own
&
--> A+
So these two have basically gotten so much better with the banning of Barbaracle and Carracosta, as they don't really have to worry about locking themselves into their STAB moves just to be swept by a smasher. Pretty self explanatory tbh.
--> C or C+
So this nom most likely isn't going through since Mag and Anty have a hatred for Krokorok for reasons unknown by me, but this thing has honestly always been a pretty great mon, as it has an awesome ability in Intimidate, it has a strong dual STAB combo with Earthquake and Knock Off, it sits in a decent Speed tier in respect to other Stealth Rock users, and can Taunt them to prevent opposing Stealth Rock. Also, with the departure of Pawniard, Krokorok is the only relevant Dark-type with Knock Off and Pursuit, making it a decent candidate for Dark spam, as it does a great job of crippling things like Tangela and Machoke, making it easier to sweep for Mightyena. This thing also does a great job of dealing with Duosion, which has become one of the harder things to check in the meta thanks to the rise of Pawniard. I would honestly be willing to nom this for B-, but I know that definitely wouldn't happen, so I'm good with this being C+ or C for now.
--> A-
As I stated above, this thing has gotten much better since the rise of Pawniard, which was one of the biggest Dark-types it had to worry about. Now, Duosion can actually run CM + Acid Armor or CM + Thunder Wave, making it so much more threatening to teams without a Dark-type, as it can actually set up on some of the stronger physical wallbreakers of the tier such as Stoutland. Mightyena, the most relevant Dark-type at the moment, actually loses to Duosion if it's able to get up an Acid Armor, since it can Life Orb stall Mightyena fairly easily, which forces Mightyena to either run Taunt or Black Glasses. This is just an overall really good mon in the tier at the moment, and it definitely deserves a rise.
--> C+
So since the banning of Carracosta, checks to Dodrio and Stoutland haven't really been too easy to find, but Relicanth, with 2xTheTap's defensive set, this can somewhat fill defensive Carracosta's role, as it can set up Stealth Rocks, maintain a ton of physical bulk, and counter things such as Dodrio and Stoutland. If you need a better explanation of what the set does, check out this post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-will-be-deleted.3522046/page-12#post-6410787
--> B-
This, like Krokorok, probably won't rise either, but I'm posting about it because I honestly think Solrock is a great mon in the current meta that is definitely worthy to be in the B ranks. Solrock is a great support mon, and its access to Stealth Rock, Will-O-Wisp, and Morning Sun along with Levitate make it worthy of a spot on a lot of teams. It's able to check / counter a lot of pretty common physical attackers such as Stoutland, Dodrio (with Colbur), Rapidash (if it doesn't have Megahorn), Machoke, Arbok, Piloswine, Golem, etc. It also synergizes really well with a lot of the better Pokemon in the tier, such as Piloswine and Roselia, whom it forms a great defensive core with.
--> B
Vullaby is arguably one of the best defoggers in the tier, as it has great bulk, access to a nice movepool (Knock Off, Foul Play, Taunt, U-turn, Roost), and it can check a ton of threats in the tier, including Linoone (it eats a +6 espeed ez), Piloswine (do the calcs if you don't believe me, it has to already have had rocks up, get 5 hits, then finish with ice shard), Fraxure, Jumpluff, Kadabra, Grumpig, Rapidash, Ursaring, Sawsbuck, Simisage, Arbok, Duosion, Gogoat, etc. Honestly just a great mon in general that deserves B.
--> C+
This thing is honestly just super underwhelming in this meta, as its worn down like no other, is checked by a ton of things, and gets bopped my common mons like Piloswine, Zebstrika, and Stunfisk. Pretty simple choice here.
--> C
Pretty big jump here, but the reason Huntail was dropped to E is because there was no reason to use it over Barbaracle or Carracosta, but being the best offensive smasher in the tier at the moment with access to priority and a way to beat Pokemon such as Tangela with Ice Beam is a strong enough niche to move this thing back up out of E.
So these two have basically gotten so much better with the banning of Barbaracle and Carracosta, as they don't really have to worry about locking themselves into their STAB moves just to be swept by a smasher. Pretty self explanatory tbh.
So this nom most likely isn't going through since Mag and Anty have a hatred for Krokorok for reasons unknown by me, but this thing has honestly always been a pretty great mon, as it has an awesome ability in Intimidate, it has a strong dual STAB combo with Earthquake and Knock Off, it sits in a decent Speed tier in respect to other Stealth Rock users, and can Taunt them to prevent opposing Stealth Rock. Also, with the departure of Pawniard, Krokorok is the only relevant Dark-type with Knock Off and Pursuit, making it a decent candidate for Dark spam, as it does a great job of crippling things like Tangela and Machoke, making it easier to sweep for Mightyena. This thing also does a great job of dealing with Duosion, which has become one of the harder things to check in the meta thanks to the rise of Pawniard. I would honestly be willing to nom this for B-, but I know that definitely wouldn't happen, so I'm good with this being C+ or C for now.
As I stated above, this thing has gotten much better since the rise of Pawniard, which was one of the biggest Dark-types it had to worry about. Now, Duosion can actually run CM + Acid Armor or CM + Thunder Wave, making it so much more threatening to teams without a Dark-type, as it can actually set up on some of the stronger physical wallbreakers of the tier such as Stoutland. Mightyena, the most relevant Dark-type at the moment, actually loses to Duosion if it's able to get up an Acid Armor, since it can Life Orb stall Mightyena fairly easily, which forces Mightyena to either run Taunt or Black Glasses. This is just an overall really good mon in the tier at the moment, and it definitely deserves a rise.
So since the banning of Carracosta, checks to Dodrio and Stoutland haven't really been too easy to find, but Relicanth, with 2xTheTap's defensive set, this can somewhat fill defensive Carracosta's role, as it can set up Stealth Rocks, maintain a ton of physical bulk, and counter things such as Dodrio and Stoutland. If you need a better explanation of what the set does, check out this post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-will-be-deleted.3522046/page-12#post-6410787
This, like Krokorok, probably won't rise either, but I'm posting about it because I honestly think Solrock is a great mon in the current meta that is definitely worthy to be in the B ranks. Solrock is a great support mon, and its access to Stealth Rock, Will-O-Wisp, and Morning Sun along with Levitate make it worthy of a spot on a lot of teams. It's able to check / counter a lot of pretty common physical attackers such as Stoutland, Dodrio (with Colbur), Rapidash (if it doesn't have Megahorn), Machoke, Arbok, Piloswine, Golem, etc. It also synergizes really well with a lot of the better Pokemon in the tier, such as Piloswine and Roselia, whom it forms a great defensive core with.
Vullaby is arguably one of the best defoggers in the tier, as it has great bulk, access to a nice movepool (Knock Off, Foul Play, Taunt, U-turn, Roost), and it can check a ton of threats in the tier, including Linoone (it eats a +6 espeed ez), Piloswine (do the calcs if you don't believe me, it has to already have had rocks up, get 5 hits, then finish with ice shard), Fraxure, Jumpluff, Kadabra, Grumpig, Rapidash, Ursaring, Sawsbuck, Simisage, Arbok, Duosion, Gogoat, etc. Honestly just a great mon in general that deserves B.
This thing is honestly just super underwhelming in this meta, as its worn down like no other, is checked by a ton of things, and gets bopped my common mons like Piloswine, Zebstrika, and Stunfisk. Pretty simple choice here.
Pretty big jump here, but the reason Huntail was dropped to E is because there was no reason to use it over Barbaracle or Carracosta, but being the best offensive smasher in the tier at the moment with access to priority and a way to beat Pokemon such as Tangela with Ice Beam is a strong enough niche to move this thing back up out of E.
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I personally think that the jump of this one should be bigger... It is strong enough to go mixed and it can just run 190 speed to outspeed 45 base speed things like Golem (That its going to be a HUGE need to kinda deter normal spam) and beat them with a Water move (Scald or Waterfall) + Sucker Punch...Ok so I'm gonna go ahead and make some noms of my own
--> C
Pretty big jump here, but the reason Huntail was dropped to E is because there was no reason to use it over Barbaracle or Carracosta, but being the best offensive smasher in the tier at the moment with access to priority and a way to beat Pokemon such as Tangela with Ice Beam is a strong enough niche to move this thing back up out of E.
I would use something like this:
Huntail @ White Herb
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 56 Atk / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Rash Nature
- Ice Beam
- Scald
- Shell Smash
- Sucker Punch
That will help the damage input of Sucker Punch while maximizing Special Attack and giving it the benchmark of 190 Speed... If you just want to outspeed Max Speed Zebstrika after a Smash, you can get a 84/252/172 spread...
+2 252+ SpA Huntail Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 278-328 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Huntail Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 298-352 (79.8 - 94.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And those were supposed to be two of the best counters to the smashers... Also, its really hard to find Tangelas and Gourgeists investing THAT much in Special Defense, which will means that commonly Huntail can easily break through them...
Against Machoke that was a huge pain for both Costa and Barba:
+2 252+ SpA Huntail Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 231-273 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Huntail: 144-171 (57.3 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Of course, confuse Hax can still beat Huntail, but isn't as realiable to beat it like it could with Costa or Barba...
Another kinda troubling poké was Piloswine:
+2 252+ SpA Huntail Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 462-546 (114.3 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Huntail: 144-171 (57.3 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Huntail: 29-34 (11.5 - 13.5%) -- possible 8HKO
Which means that even with max rolls (81,6%) plus SR (94,1% in total), Huntail can Smash on Piloswine and beat it reliably...
Another Bulky things are:
+2 252+ SpA Huntail Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 144-171 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (one that can check it)
+2 252+ SpA Huntail Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 192-226 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (not bad considering the investment, and obviously no one will try to SS on Rose or any other Grass or Electric type)
+2 252+ SpA Huntail Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 250-295 (80.3 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 56 Atk Huntail Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 356-420 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Huntail Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grumpig: 154-183 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Huntail Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Articuno: 189-223 (58.8 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And some non bulky resists:
+2 252+ SpA Huntail Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Simipour: 167-197 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Huntail: 105-123 (41.8 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Huntail: 208-246 (82.8 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Huntail Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Floatzel: 199-234 (63.9 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not bad right?
Also... for those that could tell: "Huntail isn't as bulky as Costa or Barba" I would say... yep it's true... just comparing:
Huntail: 55/105/75
Costa: 74/133/65
Barba: 72/115/86
However 55/105 isn't that bad for PU, considering that Huntail has two less weaknesses (without any 4X) and just one less resistance... Also, like Costa, Huntail does have Sucker Punch for Priority to take down some stray Scarfers like Mr Mime or Raichu:
+2 56 Atk Huntail Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 203-239 (77.7 - 91.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 56 Atk Huntail Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 178-210 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's why I personally feel that Huntail deserves some more than just a C and something more like a B+
It still needs support, but it can be a huge pain to deal with if it manages to SS that it can agaisnt a lot of physical attackers...
See ya!
Agree with this post 100%, except the jump for Relicanth should be even higher. B would be a good place for it. Not only is the defensive set very strong, being one of the best checks to normal spam, Dodrio, and Rapidash, but the Choice Band set and the Rock Polish sets are now much better as well due to not being outclassed by the smashers.Ok so I'm gonna go ahead and make some noms of my own
&--> A+
So these two have basically gotten so much better with the banning of Barbaracle and Carracosta, as they don't really have to worry about locking themselves into their STAB moves just to be swept by a smasher. Pretty self explanatory tbh.
--> C or C+
So this nom most likely isn't going through since Mag and Anty have a hatred for Krokorok for reasons unknown by me, but this thing has honestly always been a pretty great mon, as it has an awesome ability in Intimidate, it has a strong dual STAB combo with Earthquake and Knock Off, it sits in a decent Speed tier in respect to other Stealth Rock users, and can Taunt them to prevent opposing Stealth Rock. Also, with the departure of Pawniard, Krokorok is the only relevant Dark-type with Knock Off and Pursuit, making it a decent candidate for Dark spam, as it does a great job of crippling things like Tangela and Machoke, making it easier to sweep for Mightyena. This thing also does a great job of dealing with Duosion, which has become one of the harder things to check in the meta thanks to the rise of Pawniard. I would honestly be willing to nom this for B-, but I know that definitely wouldn't happen, so I'm good with this being C+ or C for now.
--> A-
As I stated above, this thing has gotten much better since the rise of Pawniard, which was one of the biggest Dark-types it had to worry about. Now, Duosion can actually run CM + Acid Armor or CM + Thunder Wave, making it so much more threatening to teams without a Dark-type, as it can actually set up on some of the stronger physical wallbreakers of the tier such as Stoutland. Mightyena, the most relevant Dark-type at the moment, actually loses to Duosion if it's able to get up an Acid Armor, since it can Life Orb stall Mightyena fairly easily, which forces Mightyena to either run Taunt or Black Glasses. This is just an overall really good mon in the tier at the moment, and it definitely deserves a rise.
--> C+
So since the banning of Carracosta, checks to Dodrio and Stoutland haven't really been too easy to find, but Relicanth, with 2xTheTap's defensive set, this can somewhat fill defensive Carracosta's role, as it can set up Stealth Rocks, maintain a ton of physical bulk, and counter things such as Dodrio and Stoutland. If you need a better explanation of what the set does, check out this post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-will-be-deleted.3522046/page-12#post-6410787
--> B-
This, like Krokorok, probably won't rise either, but I'm posting about it because I honestly think Solrock is a great mon in the current meta that is definitely worthy to be in the B ranks. Solrock is a great support mon, and its access to Stealth Rock, Will-O-Wisp, and Morning Sun along with Levitate make it worthy of a spot on a lot of teams. It's able to check / counter a lot of pretty common physical attackers such as Stoutland, Dodrio (with Colbur), Rapidash (if it doesn't have Megahorn), Machoke, Arbok, Piloswine, Golem, etc. It also synergizes really well with a lot of the better Pokemon in the tier, such as Piloswine and Roselia, whom it forms a great defensive core with.
--> B
Vullaby is arguably one of the best defoggers in the tier, as it has great bulk, access to a nice movepool (Knock Off, Foul Play, Taunt, U-turn, Roost), and it can check a ton of threats in the tier, including Linoone (it eats a +6 espeed ez), Piloswine (do the calcs if you don't believe me, it has to already have had rocks up, get 5 hits, then finish with ice shard), Fraxure, Jumpluff, Kadabra, Grumpig, Rapidash, Ursaring, Sawsbuck, Simisage, Arbok, Duosion, Gogoat, etc. Honestly just a great mon in general that deserves B.
--> C+
This thing is honestly just super underwhelming in this meta, as its worn down like no other, is checked by a ton of things, and gets bopped my common mons like Piloswine, Zebstrika, and Stunfisk. Pretty simple choice here.
--> C
Pretty big jump here, but the reason Huntail was dropped to E is because there was no reason to use it over Barbaracle or Carracosta, but being the best offensive smasher in the tier at the moment with access to priority and a way to beat Pokemon such as Tangela with Ice Beam is a strong enough niche to move this thing back up out of E.
Also,
I didn't run Rapidash on most of my teams during smashers meta as it was easy set up bait for both Costa and Barb. This forced me to put a dedicated counter to both of them on my team when I used dash and heavily constrained my teambuilding. Now that the smashers are gone, Rapidash returns as one of the most splashable mons to put on teams. It is also very difficult to counter and most balanced teams simply will not have a dedicated switch-in, and has a very versatile 3rd and 4th slot in its movepool, letting it put work in any match-up. Will-o-wisp can cripple Fraxure trying to set up on it, Baton Pass can retain momentum easily when opponents switch to Reli/Solrock, and Megahorn can deal with both Solrock and Zweilous. All of this is incredible for a pokemon who sits at an amazing 105 speed tier.
I can attest to the effectiveness of this mon as a decent pursuit trapper/rocker/taunter/etc. I feel like its pretty underrated and certainly serves a role in the meta for reasons I previously stated. With STAB EQ, Knock Off, Pursuit and access to utility such as Taunt and decent coverage to hit likely switch-ins, I think it speaks for itself.--> C or C+
So this nom most likely isn't going through since Mag and Anty have a hatred for Krokorok for reasons unknown by me, but this thing has honestly always been a pretty great mon, as it has an awesome ability in Intimidate, it has a strong dual STAB combo with Earthquake and Knock Off, it sits in a decent Speed tier in respect to other Stealth Rock users, and can Taunt them to prevent opposing Stealth Rock. Also, with the departure of Pawniard, Krokorok is the only relevant Dark-type with Knock Off and Pursuit, making it a decent candidate for Dark spam, as it does a great job of crippling things like Tangela and Machoke, making it easier to sweep for Mightyena. This thing also does a great job of dealing with Duosion, which has become one of the harder things to check in the meta thanks to the rise of Pawniard. I would honestly be willing to nom this for B-, but I know that definitely wouldn't happen, so I'm good with this being C+ or C for now.
C+ seems fine in my mind. I've been using a CB set, but Scarf Moxie is also very nice for late game clean ups/luring RKers who otherwise assume Krokorok is slower. Being a stop to Volt Switch with its ground typing is also very nice in this meta, as Zebstrika has a field day with all of these waters running around. Scarf being able to switch in and RK or Pursuit Zeb on its way out for good DMG is notable in my mind. Anyway, here's a replay of a match on ladder where CB Pursuit+good doubles on my part came into play, changing the course of the game in the process.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-267530712
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Chatot B to B+
Modest Scarf Chatot is one of the scariest pokes for offense as many teams can't kill it before it gets killed. Boomburst is a ridiculously spammable move as the only solid resists are probopass and missy (stuff like golem gets 2HKOd and the other good ghost type doesn't want to risk a heat wave). Although bulkier teams are not troubled by scarf as much (often they will run something like clefairy that avoids the 2HKO), specs will destroy their defensive cores which will ultimately lead to their team collapsing. Its 'versatility' with choice scarf and specs is really nice and it isn't too hard to bluff. The main reasons i'm not nomming it higher is because it is really weak to priority as its warn down by rocks, probopass is rising in usage due to dodrio (however this means more stunfisk are going phdef), and the two sets will only perform very well depending on matchup.
Leavanny B to B+ (maybe A-)
Sticky webs is a really cool playstyle right now as hazard control is pretty low recently especcially for offensive teams which really struggle with the speed drop. Defog users can also be pressure by purugly/servine, and even the rare rapid spin user might be troubled by missy (webs is one of the few times np missy is good). Well built webs teams aren't weak to the popular dodrio and jumpluff as they are the two biggest threats, so often webs run tank golem/probo as their rocker or even something like ebuzz (defo a faster thing than jumpluff). Most offensive teams aren't prepared for webs as they assume dodrio will just sweep, and bulkier teams aren't harder to wear down. The main issues i have been finding are scarf chatot and rotom but often being locked into the wrong move can leave the opposing team open to a strong breaker. For the record the teams which are leavanny + 5 breakers aren't good, rather ones which are able to take on flying mons and work outside of webs (you should use at most 1 of the rampardos-like wallbreakers).
Also I disagree with murkrow dropping as it hits really hard and can also break several of the pokes dodrio hates, while having stronger priority meaning (for example) a zebstrika after taking hazard damage and volt switching cannot that switch back into rocks and revenge kill. Obviously it does have flaws like being warn down, but it has a really solid niche.
I wouldn't mind huntail going further up either (further up than C), but I don't see why you would run scald on it. Your reasoning, rennyjesus, is even more confusing as sdef tang/gourg aren't very relevant, and not getting the OHKO on an offensive poke like stoutland seems really underwhelming, but running waterfall it a lot better for that reason (or even hydro/surf lol) as a stronger STAB/sucker punch is more important than a stronger ice beam IMO as ice beam is mainly there for specific targets. Also huntail is nice on set up spam teams as a barb replacement as it loves memento support and also can beat (most) choice scarf users.
And just because me and mag have a different opinion to you dundies, doesn't mean we have a random bias, I don't even get the krokorok one as I agreed that it should leave D-rank (to put this in perspective 'you want murkrow to go down but I don't - you must have a bias against it!').
Modest Scarf Chatot is one of the scariest pokes for offense as many teams can't kill it before it gets killed. Boomburst is a ridiculously spammable move as the only solid resists are probopass and missy (stuff like golem gets 2HKOd and the other good ghost type doesn't want to risk a heat wave). Although bulkier teams are not troubled by scarf as much (often they will run something like clefairy that avoids the 2HKO), specs will destroy their defensive cores which will ultimately lead to their team collapsing. Its 'versatility' with choice scarf and specs is really nice and it isn't too hard to bluff. The main reasons i'm not nomming it higher is because it is really weak to priority as its warn down by rocks, probopass is rising in usage due to dodrio (however this means more stunfisk are going phdef), and the two sets will only perform very well depending on matchup.
Leavanny B to B+ (maybe A-)
Sticky webs is a really cool playstyle right now as hazard control is pretty low recently especcially for offensive teams which really struggle with the speed drop. Defog users can also be pressure by purugly/servine, and even the rare rapid spin user might be troubled by missy (webs is one of the few times np missy is good). Well built webs teams aren't weak to the popular dodrio and jumpluff as they are the two biggest threats, so often webs run tank golem/probo as their rocker or even something like ebuzz (defo a faster thing than jumpluff). Most offensive teams aren't prepared for webs as they assume dodrio will just sweep, and bulkier teams aren't harder to wear down. The main issues i have been finding are scarf chatot and rotom but often being locked into the wrong move can leave the opposing team open to a strong breaker. For the record the teams which are leavanny + 5 breakers aren't good, rather ones which are able to take on flying mons and work outside of webs (you should use at most 1 of the rampardos-like wallbreakers).
Also I disagree with murkrow dropping as it hits really hard and can also break several of the pokes dodrio hates, while having stronger priority meaning (for example) a zebstrika after taking hazard damage and volt switching cannot that switch back into rocks and revenge kill. Obviously it does have flaws like being warn down, but it has a really solid niche.
I wouldn't mind huntail going further up either (further up than C), but I don't see why you would run scald on it. Your reasoning, rennyjesus, is even more confusing as sdef tang/gourg aren't very relevant, and not getting the OHKO on an offensive poke like stoutland seems really underwhelming, but running waterfall it a lot better for that reason (or even hydro/surf lol) as a stronger STAB/sucker punch is more important than a stronger ice beam IMO as ice beam is mainly there for specific targets. Also huntail is nice on set up spam teams as a barb replacement as it loves memento support and also can beat (most) choice scarf users.
And just because me and mag have a different opinion to you dundies, doesn't mean we have a random bias, I don't even get the krokorok one as I agreed that it should leave D-rank (to put this in perspective 'you want murkrow to go down but I don't - you must have a bias against it!').
I agree with all of your noms! Chatot can get the normal spam on PU even further, and while isn't as splashable/bulky as Dodrio or Stoutland, it can still deal HEAVY damage... Also Leavanny has been pretty useful to me as an offensive Webber with KOff, Leaf Storm and X-Scissor (that boosted by swarm after getting down to Sash can OHKO things like Rai, Zeb, standard Rose, etc)...
What I was trying to explain with my Huntail nom was that a Special Huntail (of course Hydro Pump is better to deal with Stoutland and a lot more bulky threats, but I prefer Scald just because it usually has enough power to deal heavy damage against offense and complements its decent Physical defensive prowess and I TRULY HATE missing) is better IMO in this meta because a lot of bulky things in PU tends to be Physically defensive... And even if those calcs could be irrelevant, at least shows how Huntail can deal with Tangela and Gourgeist, no matter how heavily they invest on Special Defense...
Waterfall with a Physical set is an obviously valid set but I feel that hitting Rose-Tang-Geist supereffectively and having a really nice chance to OHKO Physically Defensive Pelipper after SR (62,5%) is Better than investing on Physical attack...
Sorry about my messy posts... U_U
See ya!
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I have been using Electabuzz for a while now and it is actually pretty good. It faces a lot of competition from Zebstrika and especially Raichu, but the extra bulk Eviolite provides helps a ton with Pokemon such as Simipour and a whole bunch of Flying-types. Being a decent offensive check to Flying-types also makes Electabuzz a very nice choice on Sticky Web teams because they really struggle against fast Flying-types such as Dodrio and Jumpluff. Its strength is nothing special but it doesn't really matter that its countered by lots of special walls as long as it can maintain momentum with Volt Switch.
With Barbaracle and Carracosta banned I think Kadabra should drop to A again as there is less need for a guaranteed one time revengekiller, and revengekillers with some actual defensive worth are much better to use than an easily walled and Pursuit weak (not that nice with Stoutland gaining popularity again) Kadabra.
Grumpig is an amazing Pokemon at the moment, providing excellent defensive utility with its many resistances, bulk and great stallbreaking ability with offensive Taunt or SubCM sets. Grumpig can fullfil lots of roles in a team and does them all very well, so I think a rise to A+ is plausible.
Also Solrock has its issues but it's much much better than most of the garbage in C+ lol.
Venipede B----->C Venipede doesn't really have too much going for it, aside from an awesome ability in Speed Boost. Its stats are truly pitiful, and to succeed it often relies on having multiple Speed Boosts under its belt. Venipede throws itself into the ring with many counters and weaknesses, including, but not limited to: Absolute setup bait, Pokemon that carry Taunt, status, frailty, and knock off users (even though it's not very effective, it will still leave a big dent in Venipede's HP). Overall, if you're looking for a suicide lead, pick the underrated Dwebble, who has sturdy, access to custap berry, stealth rock AND spikes, knock off, and even counter to catch opponents off guard.
It's a suicide lead though, that's its point. It works as one far better than dwebble because lack of endeavor + speed boost makes it far easier to set up on. Overall I'd prefer leavanny as a suicide lead and I could maybe see dropping one sub rank to B-, but C is huge when it's definitely better than dwebble. Plus it puts it under whirlipede, which would need to go to c-. If we're dropping veni, whirl needs to drop too because it does the same thing but worse.
252 Atk Golem Rock Blast (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Whirlipede: 124-148 (55.8 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Golem Rock Blast (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Venipede: 168-204 (83.5 - 101.4%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
I thought this was something niche-like aswell, but i mean this then brings Golem's relevance into discussion..
Also, #FreeTrapGod
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Lapras to B- Lapras is a Pokémon who can wall off a pokemon as Floatzel, basculin and simipour, also thanks to its decent defenses can withstand many hits this Pokémon has access to a decent movement to defeat the water rates which is to freeze-dry which can easily defeat the other type grass also has priority access to ice shard with which can hit first most of the time the bad points are that is weak to Stealth Rock and low speed so I think it should be in this rank.
Perhaps go into detail on what lapras does that other special waters/ices don't do. Also back up your statements with calcs and comparisons. Lastly, state the set that you a nominating so we can get a better idea of what you are talking about.
Banded basculin does 93 - 109.4% with superpower and at +2, a life orb focus blast from Simipour does 76.3 - 89.8%, which is a guaranteed 2HKO on AV Lapras after rocks. So, Lapras does not wall either of these mons. Freeze dry and water absorb are selling points for Lapras. Try basing your argument around these features.
EDIT: Simipour does 76.3 - 89.8%, which is a guaranteed OHKO after rocks
mag edit: i mean no one uses focus blast on simipour
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Ditto B- to B! Ditto has made a name for itself as the premier revenge killer when holding choice scarf, and with all the success and potential that Ditto has, it's a wonder that it doesn't get higher rankings. I don't just see Ditto as a revenge killer, though, as it also works well as a lead, with an item corresponding to what your playstyle is. I've already made a statement against Venipede, but it is still a popular choice, and if used as a lead, Ditto basically becomes a Venipede with more HP. Not to mention how little Ditto is seen as a lead, adding more of a surprise factor. As it has shown, Ditto can be anything, a ruthless revenge killer, or a more unexpected lead. Plus, Ditto can fill an infinite number of roles, adding a chance for more diversity on your team, and room for some Pokemon that just couldn't make the cut before. Much like Missingno in Gen 1, Ditto is basically your placeholder, but with everything it brings to the table, and an HP stat that is somewhat viable, Ditto can be the source of many headaches for your opponent's team.
Definitely rank D- or D.
I agree that Huntail should increase, since Huntail was only E because of Carracosta / Barbaracle, but Torkoal isn't really good. It is the second best shell smasher because it is the only second shell smasher, and isn't very effective. Also, due to the new Baton Pass Clause, Masquerain now doesn't have its best niche, quiver pass. Without that, there is no reason to use it over beautifly or something like that (not saying beautifly is good, but it is better than masquerain meaning that there is no niche for masquerain).and
should definitely be C+ or C rank as the two best and unique shell smashers.
all wonder why I say that this pokemon should gain good rank here I have them the answer and is very simple in spite of having a very pesima statistics is the niche of being the only pokemon bug guy with access to very good rate movements water and that can perfectly suit your weaknesses fire type and rock which is great despite being weak to stealth rocks and have a very dismal statistics this pokemon has also great ability and access to decent and wonderful movement booster quiver dance which is to intimidate which make a wonderful combination.
Definitely rank D- or D.