Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

I'd like to disagree, chinchou stops the other team's momentum and has the option of volt switch to gain your own momentum. Eel does not stop the volt switch, hence things like zebstrika can pivot on it as well as rotom-f, which is also hard walled by chinchou. Comparing these two for the same role, i would rather use chinchou 99% of the time for the fact it blocks the volt switch, hence just by it being on your team, it can force the opponent to make uncomfortable plays by not clicking volt switch and hence you gain more momentum.
Secondly, you're advertising its variety of moves, hence would not be running recovery rest-talk? Hence can't act as a status absorber, whilst also getting worn down through the duration of the match rather easily. So not only will things be volt switching on it (that is what you're advertising it for right?), it can also be taking hazard damage and chip damage with no way of recovering it back, whilst also being a weak pos.
Hence I'd like to disagree with this nomination.
Yeah, Volt Switch immunity is nice and all, but Chinchou doesn't really threaten electric types if they don't rely on Volt Switch. I also didn't say that Eeletrik stops Volt Switches or even electric types in general. Honestly I use it more as a check for Steel, Ground, and Water types more than anything.

For example, NP Raichu wins against Chinchou if it switches in on a Nasty Plot. Rotom-F Sub is not broken by Scald 99% of the time, Volt Switch won't kill any water type, etc.

I'm also advertising moves because as I said, Eeletrik has versatility. It can be a pivot OR can use a really good Coil set. Chinchou is a one trick pony meanwhile Eeletrik is not.

Eeletrik is also harder to switch into. Bulky pokemon like Machoke, Bouffalant, Stunfisk, etc. won't like losing 50% of their health on switch in because that is health they aren't likely to get back. Chinchou is also heavily reliant on Volt Switch to do anything itself, and Scald doesn't even 4HKO Stunfisk, does even less against Gabite, doesn't OHKO Marowak, 7HKOs Vibrava....Hell, even Minun can block you and can baton pass a sub because Scald can't break it.
 

MZ

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Yeah, Volt Switch immunity is nice and all, but Chinchou doesn't really threaten electric types if they don't rely on Volt Switch. I also didn't say that Eeletrik stops Volt Switches or even electric types in general. Honestly I use it more as a check for Steel, Ground, and Water types more than anything.

For example, NP Raichu wins against Chinchou if it switches in on a Nasty Plot. Rotom-F Sub is not broken by Scald 99% of the time, Volt Switch won't kill any water type, etc.

I'm also advertising moves because as I said, Eeletrik has versatility. It can be a pivot OR can use a really good Coil set. Chinchou is a one trick pony meanwhile Eeletrik is not.

Eeletrik is also harder to switch into. Bulky pokemon like Machoke, Bouffalant, Stunfisk, etc. won't like losing 50% of their health on switch in because that is health they aren't likely to get back. Chinchou is also heavily reliant on Volt Switch to do anything itself, and Scald doesn't even 4HKO Stunfisk, does even less against Gabite, doesn't OHKO Marowak, 7HKOs Vibrava....Hell, even Minun can block you and can baton pass a sub because Scald can't break it.
I still think you misunderstand what it does. Chinchou has a very simple role: completely walling the hell out of Rotom-F, Swanna, Zebstrika, and Electrode, and checking Regice, Simisear, Floatzel, Raichu, and a couple of other things. It dies to pretty much the rest of the meta, sure. But all of its utility comes in at beating these very specific threats, which gives it a solid niche. For example, you talk about not breaking Rotom's sub. Rotom can't do anything back to you though. Eelektrik doesn't have that. It can check a different select group of mons, but it doesn't really just beat any particular subgroup, and the reason people are so against ranking it is because it's unclear why you'd really want to use it. I'm assuming like Super Fang/U-Turn/Knock Off/filler maybe STAB move but you can only check a couple of things while not being terribly bulky and lacking recovery. Replays versus good teams would be the best way to demonstrate its niche here, as I'm just not sure why I'd want some mediocre, not terribly bulky pivot when there's shit like Chinchou, Furfrou, even defensive Luxray or something.
 
you're normally not allowed to nominate mons to move with ranks in the thread VeryPinkPancakes because we (the council) normally just do it on our own but since your post was well thought out I don't particularly mind
 

pancake

movement and location
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Magnemite said:
you're normally not allowed to nominate mons to move with ranks in the thread VeryPinkPancakes because we (the council) normally just do it on our own but since your post was well thought out I don't particularly mind
Weird, I guess the PU chat was wrong.

OK, thanks.
 
I still think you misunderstand what it does. Chinchou has a very simple role: completely walling the hell out of Rotom-F, Swanna, Zebstrika, and Electrode, and checking Regice, Simisear, Floatzel, Raichu, and a couple of other things. It dies to pretty much the rest of the meta, sure. But all of its utility comes in at beating these very specific threats, which gives it a solid niche. For example, you talk about not breaking Rotom's sub. Rotom can't do anything back to you though. Eelektrik doesn't have that. It can check a different select group of mons, but it doesn't really just beat any particular subgroup, and the reason people are so against ranking it is because it's unclear why you'd really want to use it. I'm assuming like Super Fang/U-Turn/Knock Off/filler maybe STAB move but you can only check a couple of things while not being terribly bulky and lacking recovery. Replays versus good teams would be the best way to demonstrate its niche here, as I'm just not sure why I'd want some mediocre, not terribly bulky pivot when there's shit like Chinchou, Furfrou, even defensive Luxray or something.
Does it really hard counter those threats? Swanna sure, Rotom-F can trick or go into PP Stall War with Pain Split. I'm not sure if it would actually win but you would lose a lot of Rest PP in the process and surely be at least weakened by Pain Split. At full health Electrode actually beats SpD Chinchou with Life Orb Explosion after two signal beams and two Scalds only do abut 50%. So it forces you to rest very early or be KO'd if you don't expect it. I wouldn't call that hard wall even though Electrode dies in the process.

Honestly this post seems a little to me like "I don't know what this does and I've never used it so I think its bad," especially the bolded part. This isn't a good reason not to rank it. I've listed why you would use it already: Levitate, no weaknesses, Coil, Knock Off, and Slow U-turn is what particualy separates it from other electric types and other eviolite set up sweepers

The Sub groups it checks are: Steel, Ground, and Water Types, and some Flying Types.
This includes Ampharos, Drifblim, Gabite, Golem, Huntail, Jumpluff, Agility Kingler, Lumineon, Marowak, Metang, Murkrow, Poli, Prinp, Probopass, Stunfisk, Vibrava, Vullaby, and Whiscash,

Some of these depends on the set it uses, but it is very viable.
 
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Akir

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Some of these depends on the set it uses, but it is very viable.
What are these sets? Do you have replays of the sets working?

After reading all of this, I'm still unsure as to what exactly you are trying to sell us on. There are a lot of mons in PU that have roles that are unique to them and do have an applicable use, like how Pikachu does have a strong Espeed going for it. No other mon has such a strong Espeed. However, I have to ask if that niche is worth a team slot over the other options. Is using Pikachu for that Espeed worth everything I lose from the opportunity cost? No. Opportunity cost is a huge thing to consider in PU, since there are a large number of mons that do unique niche things but aren't viable.

So, is Eel worth a team slot? What does it do in an actual match? Yes Eel does things that are unique, but why should I care?

Also, Explosion on Electrode is not common at all. Definitely not common enough to cite as a reason for why Chinchou doesn't counter it, since it does 99.99% of the time just fine.
 
Does it really hard counter those threats? Swanna sure, Rotom-F can trick or go into PP Stall War with Pain Split. I'm not sure if it would actually win but you would lose a lot of Rest PP in the process and surely be at least weakened by Pain Split. At full health Electrode actually beats SpD Chinchou with Life Orb Explosion after two signal beams and two Scalds only do abut 50%. So it forces you to rest very early or be KO'd if you don't expect it. I wouldn't call that hard wall even though Electrode dies in the process.

Honestly this post seems a little to me like "I don't know what this does and I've never used it so I think its bad," especially the bolded part. This isn't a good reason not to rank it. I've listed why you would use it already: Levitate, no weaknesses, Coil, Knock Off, and Slow U-turn is what particualy separates it from other electric types and other eviolite set up sweepers

The Sub groups it checks are: Steel, Ground, and Water Types, and some Flying Types.
This includes Ampharos, Drifblim, Gabite, Golem, Huntail, Jumpluff, Agility Kingler, Lumineon, Marowak, Metang, Murkrow, Poli, Prinp, Probopass, Stunfisk, Vibrava, Vullaby, and Whiscash,

Some of these depends on the set it uses, but it is very viable.
This whole part of what you wrote seems like grabbing at straws as Eelektrik has been a very tested out pokemon in multiple metas to see if it has a valid niche and has been looked at fairly thoroughly and while the pros you listed are unique to only it they aren't a reason to rank it as effectiveness and cost of using it must be taken into consideration especially in terms of how strong the current meta is in terms of breakers,set-up sweepers and even the popularity of toxic/yawn on defensive pokemon.

As far as your argument goes for the pokemon you feel dont wall it wont go further into as it has been mentioned prior but i am going to point out again what many possibly have (i have mostly scimmed all this) is that you need a lot more then telling us what the mon does as many of us are already aware of Eelektriks pros and very much its cons.
  • Sets
  • Replays
  • Clear knowledge of the meta/sets of other mons
The third i listed specifically as you seem to not know exactly some sets and viable pokemon and have listed some rather off things such as Explosion Electrode and listing Whiscash on your Sub-Check section, I apologize if that came off rude, this simply is rather wrong and just further makes the nomination off as you list an unviable/never used mon in PU and a set option no one uses and is not even listed on its main set (only on its Sui-Lead Rain set) quite simply especially in the case of an unranked pokemon you need to go further with the nomination and make the facts much more clear and why its beneficial over the pokemon it would compete a spot for on a team
 

Anty

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If you want Eeletrik to be ranked, you are going have to convince us by showing replays of it doing things that chinchou/electabuzz can't, but rn I really doubt it'll be ranked.

Anyway, here are some nom's:

Beheeyem to B+: It has recently gained a lot of usage as it is so anti meta rn. Bulky CM sets are nice, as they can reliably check machoke and can break certain stall teams, however the set that makes it B+ is Trick Room ones. It is so threatening to any offensive team as they have almost nothing to switch into it, as stuff like Grumpig is easy to wear down and other Psychic resists like Vullaby just drop to tbolt or other coverage. Analytic makes it very hard to pivot switch to stall trick room turns, and it can take a good amount of priority like mach punches and aqua jets, though unfortunately it is very weak to priority. The best part about BEM, is that it isn't matchup dependant, as it can sacrifice a coverage move for Nasty Plot, which just obliterates stall, and even with just Psychic + Thunderbolt/Signal Beam it can clean or break down offense, it just needs a bit more support. Specs sets are also very threatening, and it has enough bulk to live a hit vs most offensive mons and knock something out.


Gogoat down to B: Though it seems good Water-resists are under appreciated, Gogoat just isn't effective in this current metagame, as recent metagame trends have been going against it; Gourgeist-XL and defensive Mawile are getting very popular, most Golem run Toxic now, more Floatzel are running physical. Though Substitute is an option i've seen a few times, without Milk Drink you can't switch in to special attackers, and without a coverage move there is nothing stopping stuff like Arbok and Monferno switching in freely. I've considered running Sub/Toxic/Milk Drink/Horn Leech, as Vullaby and Gourgeist can't break its sub, but it seems quite passive vs offense, and clefairy and duosion are getting more usage in bulkier teams.

Higher ranks are looking good, but a- does seem a bit full.
 

Sobi

Banned deucer.
C- to C or C+

this is my first post itt, plz don't yell at me D:
ever since Mawile dropped down to PU, it has been a common Pokemon used on many different teams, whether it be running an offensive or all-out attacker set, or a defensive set, which is the common variant used nowadays. torkoal is a great counter to defensive mawile, as it can switch into both of its STAB moves by virtue of its typing and amazing defense, shrug off any damage even when mawile has boosted to +6 (this is especially true for torkoal's defensive set), and OHKO mawile with fire blast for the offensive set and 2HKO with lava plume for the defensive set. the defensive set trades the reduced power for the increased bulk, which i think is very noteworthy, as iron head and play rough both fail to do >10% damage to defensive torkoal. torkoal also fits on teams looking for a defensive spinner and / or stealth rock user (like prinplup, although pawniard can take advantage of defiant), which is another advantage of using torkoal. it may not fit on more offensively-oriented teams, but it works well on stall (which isn't as common as it used to be) and generally defensive / balanced teams. therefore, i don't think it belongs at C-, it has a lot of potential and C- really undermines it.
defensive torkoal V defensive mawile

torkoal: 0 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 242-288 (79.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

mawile
: 4 Atk Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 25-30 (7.2 - 8.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
4 Atk Mawile Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 21-26 (6.1 - 7.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+6 4 Atk Mawile Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 87-102 (25.3 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 4 Atk Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 97-115 (28.2 - 33.5%) -- 95.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

offensive torkoal V defensive mawile

torkoal: 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 569-671 (187.1 - 220.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 309-367 (101.6 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

mawile:
4 Atk Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 32-38 (11.3 - 13.5%) -- possible 8HKO
4 Atk Mawile Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 29-34 (10.3 - 12%) -- possible 9HKO
+6 4 Atk Mawile Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 113-133 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 4 Atk Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 127-150 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO

defensive torkoal V offensive mawile

mawile: 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 58-70 (16.9 - 20.4%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 52-62 (15.1 - 18%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 55-65 (16 - 18.9%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 234-277 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 208-246 (60.6 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 213-252 (62 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

torkoal: 0 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 242-288 (100.4 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

offensive torkoal V offensive mawile

torkoal: 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 564-665 (234 - 275.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 309-364 (128.2 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO

mawile: 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 77-90 (27.4 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 68-81 (24.1 - 28.8%) -- 97.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 70-83 (24.9 - 29.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 304-359 (108.1 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 270-320 (96 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 278-328 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
 
C- to C or C+

this is my first post itt, plz don't yell at me D:
ever since Mawile dropped down to PU, it has been a common Pokemon used on many different teams, whether it be running an offensive or all-out attacker set, or a defensive set, which is the common variant used nowadays. torkoal is a great counter to defensive mawile, as it can switch into both of its STAB moves by virtue of its typing and amazing defense, shrug off any damage even when mawile has boosted to +6 (this is especially true for torkoal's defensive set), and OHKO mawile with fire blast for the offensive set and 2HKO with lava plume for the defensive set. the defensive set trades the reduced power for the increased bulk, which i think is very noteworthy, as iron head and play rough both fail to do >10% damage to defensive torkoal. torkoal also fits on teams looking for a defensive spinner and / or stealth rock user (like prinplup, although pawniard can take advantage of defiant), which is another advantage of using torkoal. it may not fit on more offensively-oriented teams, but it works well on stall (which isn't as common as it used to be) and generally defensive / balanced teams. therefore, i don't think it belongs at C-, it has a lot of potential and C- really undermines it.
defensive torkoal V defensive mawile

torkoal: 0 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 242-288 (79.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

mawile
: 4 Atk Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 25-30 (7.2 - 8.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
4 Atk Mawile Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 21-26 (6.1 - 7.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+6 4 Atk Mawile Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 87-102 (25.3 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 4 Atk Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 97-115 (28.2 - 33.5%) -- 95.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

offensive torkoal V defensive mawile

torkoal: 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 569-671 (187.1 - 220.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 309-367 (101.6 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

mawile:
4 Atk Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 32-38 (11.3 - 13.5%) -- possible 8HKO
4 Atk Mawile Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 29-34 (10.3 - 12%) -- possible 9HKO
+6 4 Atk Mawile Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 113-133 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 4 Atk Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 127-150 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO

defensive torkoal V offensive mawile

mawile: 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 58-70 (16.9 - 20.4%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 52-62 (15.1 - 18%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 55-65 (16 - 18.9%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 234-277 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 208-246 (60.6 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 213-252 (62 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

torkoal: 0 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 242-288 (100.4 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

offensive torkoal V offensive mawile

torkoal: 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 564-665 (234 - 275.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 309-364 (128.2 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO

mawile: 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 77-90 (27.4 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 68-81 (24.1 - 28.8%) -- 97.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 70-83 (24.9 - 29.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 304-359 (108.1 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 270-320 (96 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 278-328 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
this is good info about torkoal vs mawile, but what else does torkoal accomplish (like, what else does it wall?) i'm not sure that being able to take on mawile alone is enough to push it up a subrank or two.
 

Sobi

Banned deucer.
this is good info about torkoal vs mawile, but what else does torkoal accomplish (like, what else does it wall?) i'm not sure that being able to take on mawile alone is enough to push it up a subrank or two.
Haha, I was expecting someone to say this. Defensive torkoal also walls pawniard, bouffalant, dodrio to an extent if rocks are on the field, leafeon, monferno, and pluff. torkoal just doesn't accomplish walling by the way, if you want, you can give it white herb and shell smash. with the boosts from ss, it is able to: ohko aaa machoke after sr, ohko rotom-f, ohko leafeon / ferno / stout / pawn / dodrio, and a bunch of other physical attackers, which i think is really impressive.
offensive torkoal after ss boosts

  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 160 HP / 28 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 339-399 (99.4 - 117%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-F: 663-780 (275.1 - 323.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leafeon: 993-1172 (366.4 - 432.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Monferno: 429-507 (159.4 - 188.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 382-450 (122.8 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 946-1118 (409.5 - 483.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dodrio: 530-624 (203 - 239%) -- guaranteed OHKO
defensive torkoal
  • 252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 76-90 (22.1 - 26.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252+ Atk Bouffalant Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 124-146 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252+ Atk Bouffalant Return vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 93-111 (27.1 - 32.3%) -- 55.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 Atk Leafeon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 55-65 (16 - 18.9%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 88-105 (25.6 - 30.6%) -- 1.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 60-72 (17.4 - 20.9%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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ShuckleDeath

They call me the kign of typos
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Haha, I was expecting someone to say this. Defensive torkoal also walls pawniard, bouffalant, dodrio to an extent if rocks are on the field, leafeon, monferno, and pluff. torkoal just doesn't accomplish walling by the way, if you want, you can give it white herb and shell smash. with the boosts from ss, it is able to: ohko aaa machoke after sr, ohko rotom-f, ohko leafeon / ferno / stout / pawn / dodrio, and a bunch of other physical attackers, which i think is really impressive.
offensive torkoal after ss boosts

  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 160 HP / 28 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 339-399 (99.4 - 117%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-F: 663-780 (275.1 - 323.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leafeon: 993-1172 (366.4 - 432.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Monferno: 429-507 (159.4 - 188.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 382-450 (122.8 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 946-1118 (409.5 - 483.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dodrio: 530-624 (203 - 239%) -- guaranteed OHKO
defensive torkoal
  • 252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 76-90 (22.1 - 26.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252+ Atk Bouffalant Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 124-146 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252+ Atk Bouffalant Return vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 93-111 (27.1 - 32.3%) -- 55.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 Atk Leafeon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 55-65 (16 - 18.9%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 88-105 (25.6 - 30.6%) -- 1.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 60-72 (17.4 - 20.9%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
With Mawile becoming a bit more common I wouldn't be against a rise to C Rank. While it counters a few physical attackers, it still leaves the teams it is on with a slow rather passive pokemon, is dead weight when it comes to Water and Ground types, is weak to stealth rock and I feel it's best set, Shell Smash Rapid Spin, is still to slow after set up to accomplish any thing more than spinning. So i can see maybe a rise one slot but i indefinitely feel it's hindrances should keep it from rising to C+.
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
Torkoal to C+ Agree. Torkoal really does provide a lot of role compression for teams, and as mentioned before it not only counters Mawile but also Monferno, Pawniard, Rapidash, Jumpluff, and Leafeon, among other things. Although I still don't like Shell Smash at all, the defensive set definitely has enough long-term resilience and relevance in this meta for a C+ ranking. The Stealth Rock weakness, weakness to water and ground, and its poor match-up with some of the major hazard setters (Golem, Stunfisk) should keep it from rising any higher, however.

Gogoat to B Agree. Gogoat's Bulk Up set has definitely gotten worse in this meta, since running Earthquake would get you walled by running several threats that are more common now, like Articuno and Gourgeist. And running Rock Slide makes you weaker to other common stuff like Monferno and Arbok. Either way, using Bulk Up Gogoat is a gamble and highly depends on team match-up. I think the best Gogoat set in this meta is actually plain Horn Leech, EQ, Toxic, Milk Drink. This allows Gogoat to cover both Gourgeist and Articuno, as well as still hitting Steel/Fire types, and can outlast a lot of teams lategame with Toxic. But this still has the Clefairy/Duosion problem as mentioned before, and is easily revenged by physical-attackers. Gogoat is still an underrated threat that can be very difficult to take down for certain teams, but the metagame is less kind to it than before.

now for some of my own noms:

Floatzel to A+

As the meta has gotten bulkier, Floatzel isn't as big of a threat as it used to be. Pokemon like defensive Machoke, Regice, Clefairy, and Grumpig have become more common and made it less necessary for people to run dedicated water resists like they used to. While physical sets can certainly lure the special water resists like Chinchou, Politoed with Return, they also match-up mediocre against the meta as Gourgeist, Leafeon, and bulky Swanna have become common. Special sets face the same problem as they did before, being walled by the special water resists and not hitting hard enough to break through bulky tanks without taking a lot of Life Orb recoil in the process. In additionally, Floatzel is not that easy to fit on teams because a lot of teams want Swanna/Lumineon for hazard removal and they don't synergize too well for it. Floatzel still is a very dangerous pokemon as it is able to lure its counters, and sweep through teams lategame but the best teams in the metagame are a bit too fat for it.

Swanna to A+
Swanna has seen a huge spike in usage in this meta, and for a good reason. Swanna is extremely splashable as it the best hazard remover in the tier, being faster and far less passive than Vullaby and Lumineon, and having far better physical bulk than Cryogonal. Besides removing hazards it also provides the essential ability to check Machoke and Monferno, so it has great role compression. Finally, Swanna's speed tier and scary offensive presence is something every team needs to prepare for, as standard Water-type checks such as Roselia and Lumineon do not help. There are few pokemon that can consistently check it defensively, which include Clefairy and Regice, which is ridiculous considering how common it is and easy to fit onto a team.


A- is also cluttered. Ursaring, Crustle, Probopass, and Tangela could all probably move down to B+ and Metang could move to A.

 
After some of the folks here talked about Torkoal I decided to give it a try, but instead of using defensive or Shell Smash variants I tried a special attacking tank set:


Torkoal @ Leftovers
Ability: White Smoke
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Rapid Spin
- Hidden Power [Electric]

This set allows Torkoal to keep most of its bulk while not being incredibly passive. I find that Swanna is common enough to justify using HP Electric just to keep it from switching in freely. I tested this out on a pretty offensive team and it was able to check a few things every game and still help my team keep momentum in most cases.

Saved some replays against some solid PU players I tested it against.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-391472931 vs Grim
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-391475261 vs General Annoyance
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-391478682 vs Kaboom

I agree that Torkoal should be C+
 
After some of the folks here talked about Torkoal I decided to give it a try, but instead of using defensive or Shell Smash variants I tried a special attacking tank set:


Torkoal @ Leftovers
Ability: White Smoke
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Rapid Spin
- Hidden Power [Electric]

This set allows Torkoal to keep most of its bulk while not being incredibly passive. I find that Swanna is common enough to justify using HP Electric just to keep it from switching in freely. I tested this out on a pretty offensive team and it was able to check a few things every game and still help my team keep momentum in most cases.

Saved some replays against some solid PU players I tested it against.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-391472931 vs Grim
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-391475261 vs General Annoyance
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-391478682 vs Kaboom

I agree that Torkoal should be C+
Torkoal did literally 0 our game. Weakness to rocks, terrible speed, and lack of recovery on top of being a god awful hazard remover does not justify it going up two sub ranks. Most of the mons it checks can knock it off/hit neutrally with STAB which after rocks leaves you with a ~50% no recovery mon that loses another 25% on next entry. I'd say, if anything, it could be justified to be moved up to C, but I certainly don't think torkoal's niche is comparable to that of the rest of C+ (Chinchou bump gotta happen soon).
 
Torkoal made it hard for you to go klang or leafeon which helped a lot in the long run. And chinchou is like a B mon right now honestly so they shouldn't be the same rank.
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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Torkoal shouldn't be going any higher than C. When have you ever made a team that seriously benefitted from becoming slower, more SR weak, and more water weak for the sake of checking very few specific threats? Torkoal is a mon that you need to build around and provide support because god knows it's nearly impossible to slap on teams because of how awful it is. The main reason people want it up is because "look at how much shit it checks!" and it really doesn't stop something like monferno that consistently when you just need to get up rocks and force it to switch in once or twice to negate the threat. I just can't take it seriously when it has the long lasting potential of a paper bag. In Grim's game it lured swanna because he didn't expect random HP electric then did fuck all, in GA's game the rest of the team pressured Camerupt too much to get up SR so it checked a few things then died, and in Kaboom's game the same thing happened with perfect doubling to avoid getting rocks set up because that would make torkoal useless + he had like the one rocker that torkoal can actually switch into and remove on. I just wasn't terribly impressed with any of it. Also yeah I wouldn't use Chinchou as an excuse when it's probably fine to move to B for now but not too much higher please.

Swanna is not an A+ mon. This nomination is just confusing how much people use something and how good it actually is. It's certainly a solid mon, but offensive gets worn down really easily and is only mildly harder to check than all the other strong special attackers with amazing coverage and defensive is so weak and slow that it can't be moved up with how easy it is to pressure. That's really just reducing these to two I don't like these arguments, but I think the only thing to be said for swanna is that it's just not that good. Use the mon, face decent teams that aren't totally unable to threaten the same old defensive cores, and it just doesn't put in that amount of work. I don't know how to explain it better since this feels really lackluster but it's just never been the hardest thing to pressure or work around, and the majority of the things it checks can still break through it by doubling around once or twice to rack up SR or slight set changes like Floatzel and Monferno. Still feels weak but I'm not as much of a fan of this mon.

I also still think Floatzel could stand S, it's certainly not the offensive standout that it used to be and I understand why it has a shot to drop but its offensive presence keeps it above the other huge A+ threats like Mime and Monferno. While nothing it does prevents Machoke from being a great check to it, anything else can be beaten with minor set variations that still leave it incredibly threatening and that's far from nothing. I'll probably post more on it later but LO mixed sets and ones that use different moves like Return, HP Electric, Focus Blast, Switcheroo, Ice Beam physical, or Bulk Up/PuP are the ones that are the strongest nowadays because once your team has figured out a way to handle Machoke you can just blow through the secondary check like Swanna or Chinchou (it's basically always one of those two) and I don't want to hold having troubles with machoke that much against it because lol what doesn't. I feel like people underrate its offensive presence because it has 3 really common solid checks and the slightly less common Politoad, but only Machoke is incredibly insurmountable and still gets plenty chipped, and the rest really aren't so perfect when you get down to it. Nothing has Floatzel's level of variable offensive presence, let's not drop it just yet.

Trapinch and Vibrava might be able to swap places (Trapinch to B-, Vibrava to C+). Trapinch's support can be devastating with so many decent mons being trappable, and while it needs a specific team to take advantage of its trapping rather than being easy to slap on, I think the benefits of its support could justify a bump past stuff like Avalugg. Not as strong on Vibrava but it's really not too easy to slap on a team since it really doesn't beat much. Other defoggers are way more common for good reason, Vibrava can annoy a handful of things, switch into even less, and does absolutely nothing versus bulkier playstyles because of how weak it is. Not totally sure on this one but overall it's just really lame now and would be a lot nicer if it didn't lose to nearly every top mon in the meta.

Also while I'm here, yes to dropping gogoat because it sucks and yes to raising Beheeyem because trick room sets are godlike.
 
Without writing a huge cluster of writing, i wanna add my 2 cents too.
on the current nominations:
torkoal is not a C+ pokemon, it's actually really bad as a hazard removal pokemon, weak to rocks + spikes, slow, there's almost a certainty that there will be a bulky water type on the team and mawile has plenty of other checks in the tier that I cannot see torkoal being advertised as a good pokemon in C+, i would stick it in C tops, ideally C- or D+ if it were me because it just doesn't add a lot to the team. And Rawmelon, I disagree with it doing anything in those replays. Any fire pokemon in the tier can carry hp ele, it doesn't add torkoal a specific niche. game 2 it did 0 because it was so hard checked. game 3, it was hard walled entirely by altaria. I would be opposed to ranking it in C+.

I agree with floatzel dropping to A+, it's not as prevalent as it used to be when it comes to matchup. I find its sets lack defensive qualities and in a meta whereby bulkier balance teams are rather good, floatzel usually finds itself faced with potentially 4-5 checks per team and maybe 1-2 counters depending on the floatzel set. It's lost out a lot in recent with the bulkier machoke sets rising and chinchou gaining popularity along with duosion, clefairy, etc...

I am just gonna repeat some of my nominations i made a month ago because they still stand now and I'm actually baffled as to why they weren't put through.
Beheeyem -> B+ pls and ty
Swanna -> A idk why this was never put through, it's not quite an A+ mon but 100% for certain an A mon
Clefairy -> A its counters are easy to wear down and hard to fit on teams, its one of the bulkiest scariest things to face right now, should be A, if not A+
duosion -> A- / A at least, same reasons as before
 
After some reconsideration, you all are right its not a C+ mon. However I still think it's a mon that is constantly overlooked and regarded as a deadweight passive mon but I think it does have some useful utility. I wouldn't use it as a physical wall or anything like that but it fills a niche of checking a few threats in the meta such as pawn, mawile, leafeon, rapidash etc while still maintaing some offensive presence and removing hazards.

That's all I have to offer on it, no more Torkoal from me. ;)
 
Would like to nominate this mon to C+ or B-
Swalot i feel is pretty decent in the meta considering it can take on Machoke quite well with Pain Split and Sticky Hold/Rocky Helmet. The residual damage that helmet put onto Machoke is good especially if they are not Rest/Talk. If they are rest/talk that doesnt make this mon useless. Pain Split allows to always keep health up as long as Machoke is healthy as well.
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Swalot: 60-72 (14.8 - 17.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Swalot: 79-93 (19.6 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
As seen above Swalot handles the rest talk set extremely well and other typical coverage moves dont do much more.

On the down side to Swalot it does not handle all physical threats extremely well. For instance swalot does struggle with Golem and other ground types along with Ground coverage. Also struggling with top mons like Mime and other special attackers. Poison typing isnt great as a one size fits all but in this meta i feel its niche in stopping the best mon in the tier is valuable.

Set I use is below. Can switch Sludge Bomb for Gunk Shot but i like being able to be Tangela easier and other grass types without having to miss Gunk.

Swalot @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Pain Split
- Toxic
- Sludge Bomb
- Earthquake

I can add replays just have to find them or get more.
 
Last edited:
Hello everyone, since the council is smaller than it has ever been, we decided to let a few more people in on the internal discussion process, similar to a VR council which some other tiers have. This will consist of active community members who have shown that they can consistently make good posts in this thread. If you want to take place in the discussions for updating the VR, keep making good posts in this thread and we will take notice. However, this does NOT mean you should post noms just for the sake of posting noms.

The people we have decided to add at the current time are Akir, RawMelon, Teddeh, and amber lamps. Congratulations to them!

Also, I forgot to mention that the nomination process will now primarily take place on Discord instead of Piratepad like it used to. This only really matters for the council / vr council members who weren't on discord this morning but I felt like I should still add it to this post.
 
Ok so this is my first post so I will be quick. I want to nominate munchlax from C to C+ or B-.
Munchlax is a very good wall and hard to break, 135 base hp and 85 base sp def its amazing, 40 base defense its low but it gets boosted with
curse who makes it not a complete passive wall which is bad in this tier, this is te usual set:

Munchlax @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 0
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Curse
- Frustration/Body Slam
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

85 special defense makes it hard to kill in the special way:
252+ SpA Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 142-168 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO that's the strongest focus
blast in the tier and its a 3hko.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 212-250 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO if its specs its a
2hko but this isnt common at all tbh.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Beheeyem Psychic vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 127-150 (30.8 - 36.4%) -- 62.7% chance to 3HKO The strongest viable
Specs user with stab attack its a 3hko(if it runs pshychock, and munchlax has no boosts its still 3hko).

So basically if you go munchlax on a NO SET UP special attacker is free turns of set up with curse. Which is amazing if you ask me.

For the Physical way its easier with no boosts but keep in mind you are not trying to set up in them:

252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. +1 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Munchlax: 182-216 (44.1 - 52.4%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO Stab CC ferno with
1 boost only its a 3hko(15.2% 2hko)

0 Atk Munchlax Return vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Monferno: 160-190 (59.4 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and can do something in return too.
If ferno set ups with sword dance and you only have 1 boost then you lose the matchup up. 2 boosts is enough to win the matchup.(full hp)
+2 252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. +2 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Munchlax: 270-320 (65.5 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Counters:

Taunt and Encore can break to munchlax, since its base 5 hp everything will outspeed. Also you cant hit ghosts with the usual set which may end
up in a stall battle BUT if you run toxic over sleep talk you can stall the ghosts out while using rest.

If we see some C+ ranks, there is Avalugg which isnt a great spinner, beartic which outside of rain isnt so good and some other steatlh
rock users which are extremly situational. Which in my opinion makes it enough to at least be C+ rank.

Also machoke its no longer in the tier which was a counter with confusion. And it can fit into teams without worring of a machoke being in every
team.
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
Going along with that nomination I would like to nominate Lickilicky to B- as well.

Lickilicky @ Leftovers
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Body Slam/Frustration

Lickilicky can run the same set as Munchlax but it has numerous advantages over the former. The first is holding Leftovers recovery, because negating chip damage is incredibly useful when you take nothing from many special attacks and you spend a lot of time sleeping. Not having to hold Eviolite is also a blessing since a Knocked Off Munchlax can be easily overwhelmed by both special and physical attacks. Finally, it has Oblivious which makes it immune to Taunt and Encore- always helpful for a setup sweeper. (In Machoke meta I was using Own Tempo but this is far better now). Encore and Taunt aren't too common in PU but they do see use, for example on Politoed and Grumpig. It doesn't have Thick Fat like Munchlax and it's not quite as specially bulky but overall I would consider it on-par with Munch.

Like with Munchlax, it is pretty easy to sweep teams if they don't have a ghost type since it can outlast a lot of its checks and counters. Machoke being banned obviously was a big help, but mainly these two miniSnorlaxes should rise since a C ranking doesn't do justice to a pokemon that can "just win" vs so many kinds of teams.

Example replay vs TTFTW: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pususpecttest-393447037. I just won but he had final gambit, RIP

Also want to say that Chip Away is a viable move on these fatmons in lieu of Body Slam/Frustraion. Chip Away ignores stat boosts so it allows you to beat Acid Armor Duosion, Coil Arbok, and other Curselax/lickys 1v1. Both Munchlax and Lickilicky learn it, try it out!
 

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