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Dodrio is a really amazing scarfer at the moment for a variety of reasons. It can hit everything outside of rock/steel types neutrally with its dual stab, it has access to knock off as a coverage option, pursuit as a trapping option, and it has priority quick attack which gives you the option of being able to outpseed and beat other priority users when they're low (for example: outspeeding +2 huntail sucker punch).
Dodrio is able to outspeed all of PU's relevant scarfers (minus Simipour) while not suffering from the drawbacks that some of the other scarfers experience in terms of breaking potential and dealing with abilities and immunities that render other scarfer useless. For instance, Mime lacks breaking power, has to play guessing games with its moves, and often encounters mons that are bulky enough to consistently switch into it (clef, grumpig, audino, metang, ect). Chatot has breaking power but struggles with ghost and soundproof mons like Bouff, Mime, and Misdreavus that have seen a rise in viability since machoke has left. This forces the player to have to predict well and u-turn on a potential soundproof switch in order to not lose significant momentum. These are just a few examples and I could go on but Dodrio doesn't suffer from these problems nearly as much and can often do enough damage with knock off to both revenge the mon in front of it and weaken an opponents rock/steel switch, thereby doing significant damage for later breaking with Brave Bird and making it a more reliable scarfer in my opinion.
Overall, I think the nom is simple enough and fairly self-explanatory but dodrio is definitely up there with the other A+ mons. It has enough power to OHKO frail offensive threats after rocks as well as remove eviolite and passive recovery from its switch-ins so that it may sweep later on.
I kind of see why Swoobat is so low, but Kee Berry, with Simple, makes Stored Power Base 140 after a Calm Mind.
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Floatzel: 348-411 (93 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-F: 220-261 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Leafeon: 304-358 (91 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Monferno: 680-804 (204.8 - 242.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Golem: 304-358 (83.5 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Mr. Mime: 102-120 (46.1 - 54.2%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grumpig: 158-186 (43.4 - 51%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
Over all, the hard part is taking the physical hit.
I kind of see why Swoobat is so low, but Kee Berry, with Simple, makes Stored Power Base 140 after a Calm Mind.
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Floatzel: 348-411 (93 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-F: 220-261 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Leafeon: 304-358 (91 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Monferno: 680-804 (204.8 - 242.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Golem: 304-358 (83.5 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Mr. Mime: 102-120 (46.1 - 54.2%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grumpig: 158-186 (43.4 - 51%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
Over all, the hard part is taking the physical hit.
When the only mons you can actually take on in a 1v1 out of that list is monferno and mr mime you don't exactly make a good point...
edit: doesn't even take on monferno
252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swoobat: 246-291 (89.4 - 105.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (20 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Monferno: 54-66 (20 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Swoobat to B-
I kind of see why Swoobat is so low, but Kee Berry, with Simple, makes Stored Power Base 140 after a Calm Mind.
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Floatzel: 348-411 (93 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-F: 220-261 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Leafeon: 304-358 (91 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Monferno: 680-804 (204.8 - 242.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Golem: 304-358 (83.5 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Mr. Mime: 102-120 (46.1 - 54.2%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grumpig: 158-186 (43.4 - 51%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
Over all, the hard part is taking the physical hit.
Hey kekleon9999. I haven't seen any of your other posts so welcome to PU!
Unfortunately, you are going to have to give more reasons that Swoobat should become B-. You seem to have just calced against the highest mons on the viability rankings, when there are checks to Swoobat that you didn't calc with at all, like Regice. Not to mention, it is hard to set up with Swoobat; it is weak to Stealth Rock and Knock Off, two of the most popular moves in the game. It also can not touch Steel-type Pokemon, making them easy switch-ins a lot of the time. Finally, Swoobat's bulk is not top-notch. Most powerful Physical hits will be able to KO Swoobat, and most Scarfers and fast Pokemon in the tier can outspeed it and KO it or severely weaken it. As a result, I do not support this nomination, as you did not give enough detail to why Swoobat should be higher up in the viability rankings.
edit: for some reason that I missed all of the Pokes were all out Specially Defensive. Most of these Pokemon do not run fully Specially defensive sets, with the exception being the occasional Grumpig. You should check out all of these Pokemon on SmogDex here to see what sets they usually run.
Feel free to ask more questions, I'm open to them all ^^ good luck with more stuff in PU :]
I still stand by Lopunny --> D due to Lopunny being hopelessly outclassed in everything it can do. Even its role as a Healing Wish user is at stake because Mr. Mime hits harder. Sure, Scarf Lopunny is faster, but it's pitifully weak. Its attack is too low to run any viable offensive set, and it has to run Flame Orb + Klutz + Switcheroo because that is its only niche in PU, leaving it weak due to not being able to run Choice Band or Life Orb without being outclassed by Stoutland or Bouffalant. It's also too frail to run defensive, leaving it outclassed by Audino.
Yanma's decent coverage, base 75 SpA and access to Speed Boost give it a niche in PU which is not reflected by the fact it is currently unranked- one can only assume through simply not being considered yet. A reasonable person would not argue for making Yanma much more than D-Rank, though, as it does possess a number of considerable flaws.
Yanma's most impressive feat is that it can 1v1 Floatzel, PU's only S-rank mon, and come out on top due to its ability to OHKO Floatzel after Stealth Rocks- for this, Protect is required to guarantee getting off a Speed Boost, and Giga Drain is needed for its supereffective coverage. It is also worth noting that in order for the OHKO to be guaranteed, Yanma must be running Modest nature, rather than Timid, (but Modest is preferable anyway due to Speed Boost), and must hold a Life Orb or an item that gives similar boosts.
It can also 1v1 some A-rank mons, such as Leafeon (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-401591666 Turn 1 to 2), Simisage, Relicanth and Jumpluff.
Yanma can deal with some prominent leads well, including Leavanny and Roselia, and it can put Golem and Monferno into sash/sturdy range.
There is also the possibility to replace Giga Drain with Psychic, Shadow Ball, Ancientpower, or HP fighting in order to give Yanma different coverage depending on what its team needs, with Arbok,
Yanma 2HKOs a large portion of the PU meta, making it difficult to switch in against, and able to punish passive foes. (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-401591666 Turn 8 to 10, http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-401567925 turn 9 to 13)
It also poses a threat as a revenge killer- opponents must either sacrifice the mon they currently have in, or risk losing whatever they switch into due to Yanma's ability to 2HKO. Admittedly, though, there are a number of mons which Yanma simply cannot touch, with steel-types such as Mawile (http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-pu-401591666 Turns 3, 11 and 15) and Probopass being a prominent example of this.
If such mons are dealt with by the rest of one's team, Yanma has the potential to become a late game sweeper thanks to its ability to pick off weakened mons.
Its mediocre bug-flying typing leaves much to be desired, most notably leaving it 4x weak to rock, meaning Yanma will suffer if not supported by hazard removal. There is a potential to use this to one's advantage, though, as sending Yanma in twice while rocks are up leaves it on 1HP, allowing it to utilise a Petaya berry. Such a set would likely prefer endure to protect, though it would be left vulnerable to priority attacks.
Its typing's only main redemption is that it allows Yanma to be one of the few fast Special Attackers which isn't crippled by Sticky Webs, but admittedly this role is usually done better by others, such as Chatot and Rotom-F.
EDIT: Turns out it only posted an earlier version of my argument... I've lost like 5 hours works here!! :( Oh well, if this argument isn't sufficient to get Yanma to D-Rank, I guess I'll have to re-try another time... Anyway, it's 3am here, so I'mma go... Night all!
OK. First VR post from me. I have a lot on my mind, so I wanna see everyone's opinions here.
Mons I would like moved DOWN:
Fraxure - B+ to B: With the addition of Mawile and the meta getting much faster (since Machoke left making offense more prevalent), this mon really has trouble setting up boosts and doing much at all right now. With the previous bulky balance meta, Fraxure could set up SDs or DDs and break through defensive cores. However, I don't see Fraxure being a B+ mon anymore since mons such as Scarf Mime, Fast Water types with Ice Beam, Defensive Mawile has really put a cap on Fraxure's effectiveness.
Gourgeist-XL - A to A-: This thing was like THE defensive, catch-all answer to Machoke in Machoke meta, and now that it's gone, it's somewhat more of a liability. Don't get me wrong, this thing is still bulky af, and is a good wall, but other bulky grasses such as Tangela (or Quilladin) are much more appealing now since they can stop Band Stout, Leafeon and the like much better. I find myself "not needing" this mon on my team anymore, as pretty much all it did was counter Machoke (and Ursaring and some other normals but we wont get into that right now)
Electabuzz - B- to C+: Where has this thing gone? Practically unseen from the realms of PU in the last few months, practically all electrics outclass this thing. Hard. Rotom-F, Raichu, Zebstrika all perform at a high level (deservedly so), while Electabuzz really has no reason to be used right now. Its niche is bulk? Hell, if I wanted bulk, I'd be using Ampharos, and if I wanted speed, I'd just be using scarf rotom or zeb. Buzz is caught in a limbo where it really isn't needed in this meta and doesn't perform its niches effectively. On top of all this, the "rise of chinchou" has hampered Buzz even more.
Zweilous - C+ to D: So ... yeah. Why is this thing in C+? What does this thing even do anymore? It countered Eggy in Eggy meta decently, but so many fairies in the meta nowadays prevent this thing from doing literally anything. As a slow CB wallbreaker, it'll get 1 kill, maybe 2, then will promptly die. If I wanted CB wallbreaking, I'm gonna use Stoutland 99% of the time. And as a Fire check back when Ninetales was common? Most Fire types such as Monferno and Simisear simply beat it now. There is no real useful niche that Zweilous has to perform in this meta anymore; this thing is very irrelevant, and idk why it hasn't been nominated down.
Except, one set. Choice Band Pignite. I firmly think that CB Pignite is worthy of a rise to at least D rank, with the leaving of a strong fighting type in Machoke. You can think of this set as similar to Machoke's AoA set with CC and stuff, the strong, slow wallbreaker that was. This thing is strong: 93 Atk is now the highest of all fighting types in PU, and, you may think it's slow, but as a wallbreaker, it outspeeds relevant defensive threats that you'd want to wallbreak under 200 speed. Nevertheless, you may think that CB Monferno outclasses CB Pignite, but Monferno is quite weak with just 78 Atk, and even weaker if you run Jolly nature. Monferno isn't equipped for wallbreaking, but rather sweeping. Now admittedly so, Pignite is in general pretty slow and loses to offensive teams. But, simply put, Pignite's niche is an absurdly powerful Atk stat boosted by Choice Band.
For those interested in trying out Pignite, here is my set (again, 216 speed outspeeds Max speed Regice) :
Pignite @ Choice Band
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
- Stone Edge
For those interested in relevant calcs, this thing OHKOs or 2HKOs all relevant defensive checks:
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 326-384 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 232 Def Swanna: 552-652 (156.3 - 184.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria: 310-366 (106.5 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 224-266 (67 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 320-380 (85.7 - 101.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lumineon: 220-260 (64.3 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Monferno: 288-340 (107 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 207-244 (49 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Golem: 408-482 (112.3 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Flare Blitz vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Thick Fat Grumpig: 181-214 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 189-223 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 248 HP / 104 Def Eviolite Gabite: 211-249 (62.2 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 343-405 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippopotas: 216-255 (63.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Prinplup: 157-186 (47.4 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 205-243 (59.5 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 300-354 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carbink: 138-163 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I really did my research here for Pignite. I hope the council will consider a rise to D rank.
Basculin - B to B+: So I don't really know why this is so low. This thing is absurdly powerful, and the decrease in viability of Gourgeist helps Basculin quite a bit. This offensive threat, I've been using it with SD Pass Mawile, and it absolutely obliterates slower threats. It can even do well vs faster threats on offensive teams, potentially OHKOing a Zebstrika with AQ after rocks if +2. It's versatile as well, as it can go Physical or Special, like Floatzel, and the unpredictability of Hidden Powers can wreck wouldbe counters such as Swanna with HP Electric, and Ice Beam 2HKOs most bulky grasses. Basculin is the second best physical water type in the tier, and a B rank along with ehh mons like Gogoat and Purugly don't do it justice.
Mawile - A to A+: So this is probably the most controversial nom of my post, besides Pignite, but Mawile is just a fantastic mon to use in the meta at the moment for several reasons. Its typing is fantastic, and has good defensive capabilities. It's a great Knock Off switch in (perhaps the best Knock absorber), and is quite versatile. It can run Fully Defensive variants, Defensive SD BP variants, SD Sweeper variants or even simply AoA variants. Mawile counters/checks many mons in the meta, in the form of most birds, normals, physical grasses, and soft checks most dark types, psychic types and fairy types. It supports its teammates well, giving last ditch intimidates or toxics, and can gain you momentum that not many other defensive mons can in the form of Baton Pass. Get this thing to A+ please!
Cool post bud, had to change a major flaw in your set :
Pignite @ Choice Band
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
- Head Smash
Head Smash over Stone Edge since stone edge doesn't really give you any coverage other than hitting Vullaby and Altaria a little harder. Plus it just helps to have a powerful attack with no immunities on a Choiced mon. Say your opponent has a ghost and a Ninetales and you don't know what he's switching to, just press Head Smash and everything will die :D. Otherwise I agree with most of your post friend.
With the departure of Machoke this mon has only gotten better since it was probably the single largest threat to Bouff. With Machoke leaving this is now one of the few blanket checks with offensive presence we have in the tier. As much as galbia hates the AV set it checks basically every special attacker in the tier and with Facade is a nice switch in to random scalds and status moves. What makes it particularly appealing is the ability to trap weak special attackers like scarf Mime for a partner, such as SD Monferno. Also the SubSD set is really scary right now with everyone using passive teams with Clefairy, Chinchou, etc.
OK. First VR post from me. I have a lot on my mind, so I wanna see everyone's opinions here.
Mons I would like moved DOWN:
Fraxure - B+ to B: With the addition of Mawile and the meta getting much faster (since Machoke left making offense more prevalent), this mon really has trouble setting up boosts and doing much at all right now. With the previous bulky balance meta, Fraxure could set up SDs or DDs and break through defensive cores. However, I don't see Fraxure being a B+ mon anymore since mons such as Scarf Mime, Fast Water types with Ice Beam, Defensive Mawile has really put a cap on Fraxure's effectiveness.
Gourgeist-XL - A to A-: This thing was like THE defensive, catch-all answer to Machoke in Machoke meta, and now that it's gone, it's somewhat more of a liability. Don't get me wrong, this thing is still bulky af, and is a good wall, but other bulky grasses such as Tangela (or Quilladin) are much more appealing now since they can stop Band Stout, Leafeon and the like much better. I find myself "not needing" this mon on my team anymore, as pretty much all it did was counter Machoke (and Ursaring and some other normals but we wont get into that right now)
Electabuzz - B- to C+: Where has this thing gone? Practically unseen from the realms of PU in the last few months, practically all electrics outclass this thing. Hard. Rotom-F, Raichu, Zebstrika all perform at a high level (deservedly so), while Electabuzz really has no reason to be used right now. Its niche is bulk? Hell, if I wanted bulk, I'd be using Ampharos, and if I wanted speed, I'd just be using scarf rotom or zeb. Buzz is caught in a limbo where it really isn't needed in this meta and doesn't perform its niches effectively. On top of all this, the "rise of chinchou" has hampered Buzz even more.
Zweilous - C+ to D: So ... yeah. Why is this thing in C+? What does this thing even do anymore? It countered Eggy in Eggy meta decently, but so many fairies in the meta nowadays prevent this thing from doing literally anything. As a slow CB wallbreaker, it'll get 1 kill, maybe 2, then will promptly die. If I wanted CB wallbreaking, I'm gonna use Stoutland 99% of the time. And as a Fire check back when Ninetales was common? Most Fire types such as Monferno and Simisear simply beat it now. There is no real useful niche that Zweilous has to perform in this meta anymore; this thing is very irrelevant, and idk why it hasn't been nominated down.
Except, one set. Choice Band Pignite. I firmly think that CB Pignite is worthy of a rise to at least D rank, with the leaving of a strong fighting type in Machoke. You can think of this set as similar to Machoke's AoA set with CC and stuff, the strong, slow wallbreaker that was. This thing is strong: 93 Atk is now the highest of all fighting types in PU, and, you may think it's slow, but as a wallbreaker, it outspeeds relevant defensive threats that you'd want to wallbreak under 200 speed. Nevertheless, you may think that CB Monferno outclasses CB Pignite, but Monferno is quite weak with just 78 Atk, and even weaker if you run Jolly nature. Monferno isn't equipped for wallbreaking, but rather sweeping. Now admittedly so, Pignite is in general pretty slow and loses to offensive teams. But, simply put, Pignite's niche is an absurdly powerful Atk stat boosted by Choice Band.
For those interested in trying out Pignite, here is my set (again, 216 speed outspeeds Max speed Regice) :
Pignite @ Choice Band
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
- Stone Edge
For those interested in relevant calcs, this thing OHKOs or 2HKOs all relevant defensive checks:
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 326-384 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 232 Def Swanna: 552-652 (156.3 - 184.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria: 310-366 (106.5 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 224-266 (67 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 320-380 (85.7 - 101.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lumineon: 220-260 (64.3 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Monferno: 288-340 (107 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 207-244 (49 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Golem: 408-482 (112.3 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Flare Blitz vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Thick Fat Grumpig: 181-214 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 189-223 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 248 HP / 104 Def Eviolite Gabite: 211-249 (62.2 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 343-405 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippopotas: 216-255 (63.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Prinplup: 157-186 (47.4 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 205-243 (59.5 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 300-354 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carbink: 138-163 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I really did my research here for Pignite. I hope the council will consider a rise to D rank.
Basculin - B to B+: So I don't really know why this is so low. This thing is absurdly powerful, and the decrease in viability of Gourgeist helps Basculin quite a bit. This offensive threat, I've been using it with SD Pass Mawile, and it absolutely obliterates slower threats. It can even do well vs faster threats on offensive teams, potentially OHKOing a Zebstrika with AQ after rocks if +2. It's versatile as well, as it can go Physical or Special, like Floatzel, and the unpredictability of Hidden Powers can wreck wouldbe counters such as Swanna with HP Electric, and Ice Beam 2HKOs most bulky grasses. Basculin is the second best physical water type in the tier, and a B rank along with ehh mons like Gogoat and Purugly don't do it justice.
Mawile - A to A+: So this is probably the most controversial nom of my post, besides Pignite, but Mawile is just a fantastic mon to use in the meta at the moment for several reasons. Its typing is fantastic, and has good defensive capabilities. It's a great Knock Off switch in (perhaps the best Knock absorber), and is quite versatile. It can run Fully Defensive variants, Defensive SD BP variants, SD Sweeper variants or even simply AoA variants. Mawile counters/checks many mons in the meta, in the form of most birds, normals, physical grasses, and soft checks most dark types, psychic types and fairy types. It supports its teammates well, giving last ditch intimidates or toxics, and can gain you momentum that not many other defensive mons can in the form of Baton Pass. Get this thing to A+ please!
Fraxure to B ~Disagree:Let's start with the obvious, Mawile dropping meant there was another thing to (potentially) stop Fraxure. Just wanna point out that SD Frax has a good shot at killing Def Maw on the switch (+1 Superpower does 52.8 - 62.3% to Def Maw) and Offensive has to predict correctly to switch in. However, Mawile is a great check to it and unboosted Frax isn't gonna be staying in. You stated that the Machoke ban would make "offensive more prevalent", but doesn't that make it easier for DD Fraxure to sweep or clean late game? Sure there will be scarfers like Mime or Frostom to check it, but the more frail nature of offensive teams means they can't take it's hits a lot of the time. Overall, Fraxure gained a check/counter in Mawile but what Fraxure can pull off in a more offensive meta makes me think it shouldn't drop. Gourgeist-XL to A- ~Unsure:Choke leaving definitely gives more reason for other defensive grass types like Tangela or Quilladin to get some use, but that doesn't necessarily hinder Gourg's viability I feel. Sure Tang and Quill offer some different utility/uses (i.e Tang can go offensive, has Regen, Sleep Powder/Knock Off and Quill has Bulletproof, Taunt/Spikes/Roar) but they're Eviolite reliant. Gourgeist-XL doesn't have to worry about losing bulk because of Knock Off. Basically, Gourg offers great bulk+Wisp+Normal/Fight immunity while other grasses that are Evio reliant have their own utility.
Electabuzz to C+ ~Unsure:Electabuzz's niche is that electric type with Focus Blast and decent bulk. Amphy and Raichu have Focus Miss, but Buzz is faster than the former and fatter than the latter. That being said, Electabuzz doesn't really have a very good niche over other electric types. I mean Vital Spirit, Evio Bulk and Fighting coverage doesn't really give much reason for use over the plethora of electrics PU has. Just to name a few: Zeb is faster, offers two useful immunities and has Overheat. Frostom has Levitate, Ice STAB and Trick/WoW. Raichu is faster, also has FB, Lightning Rod and Nasty Plot/Surf. Overall Electabuzz is an overshadowed Electric type here in PU with a passable niche (i feel).
Zweilous Dropping to C ~Agree:Not much reason to use Zweilous in a meta where Clefairy and Mawile are prominent. Yeah an answer in Machoke left but stuff like Monferno, Stoutland and Mr Mime are still prevalent. Zweilous is still a strong wallbreaker due to Hustle but that 0.8x accuracy is pretty annoying at times. Also the Defensive Rest-Talk set has fallen out of favor I think because of the recent meta trends/drops and the fact that you have to rely on Sleep Talk rolls and 0.8x accuracy to deal damage. A drop to D would be overkill so I think going to C would be fine. Basculin to B+:I already nommed this thing twice to B+ and it didn't happen :(. Let's be real though, Basculin is quite the physical water due to Adaptabilty and LO Ice Beam sets luring Grasses. However, as long as Floatzel is here people are gonna be attracted to that speed and overall versatility despite Basc hitting harder with it's STABs.
* Pignite: it really needs to be ranked, even C- could be good for this one, cuz Pignite's SP is still stronger than Iron Fist Mach Punch from Ferno, it deals a LOT more damage to Dabra, Pig and Mime that are reallt troubling to Ferno, it does have a really high base HP for an Eviolite mon and enough speed to outpace some walls... A Tanky set with eviolite also works wonders and can handle even SE STAB hits in a pinch (LO HPump Floatzel does have a high chance to OHKO it but isn't a 100% chance which is something xD).
* Bouffalant: Agree! I have used AV and it also works pretty well, handling even Rotom (as long as it does not WoW) and Floatzel with ease... Ferno is still troubling but now it doesn't have to worry about Machoke...
* Fraxure: Disagree... Fraxure is still bulky enough to get a SD - DD in most cases and we have already covered how Mawile can be receiving HUGE damage to Superpower... Yup, Maw can check it in a pinch but isn't a counter IMO...
* Electabuzz: Agree. While Buzz is a decent option between Rai Speed and Amphy bulkyness I feel that I would rather use something faster or bulkier, especially when we need to handle Floatzel...
* Basculin: Disagree. Floaztel is faster and do basically the same damage in average. Extra coverage in Zen Headbutt and Crunch is nice and that's why isn't like C rank or something but I don't feel like there is a team in which I would use Basculin that I couldn't be using Floatzel instead.
* Zweilous: Agree. Zweilous is absurdly shitty in this meta. Isn't bulky enough or strong enough or fast enough to be effective at all... Being setup bait for Mawile and Clefairy is REALLY unappealing and Hustle accuracy drop is just absolutely annoying...
* Gourgeist: Disagree. Sure, Tangela and Quilladin can be more used right now but Gourgeist is still the premier physical wall thanks to those usefull aditional resistances and WoW. Gourgeist can even go Specially defensive thanks to that WoW and be healthy for an entire match... So, I still feel A+ is pretty much accurate!
I don't agree with all of this Pignite talk. Really guys?
There's a reason we don't run Choice Band Monferno. And if we did, it would do similar damage, especially to the stuff you guys are talking about. For example:
252 Atk Choice Band Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Grumpig: 148-175 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Pignite Flare Blitz vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Grumpig: 183-216 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I'm running Adamant on Pignite because Jolly doesn't get you the outspeed on anything of note (just defensive Altaria). If you ran Adamant on Monferno, the difference in damage would be negligible. Speaking of speed, sure, Pignite picks up the 2HKO in this situation... but is outsped and OHKOed by most powerful attacks in the tier.
Pignite's lack of priority means it is not a good revenge killer, which is a lot of what makes Monferno appealing. Monferno gains you momentum, while Pignite just sits there, sadly, as it thinks about how it doesn't have access to U-Turn.
Going for their respective Fighting-type moves on Grumpig, Monferno picks up the 2HKO after rocks, while Pignite misses out due to Superpower being its move of choice... also, it gets outsped and KOed.
Monferno is much faster, gets good priority, and gets U-turn, which helps with momentum. In my opinion, there's absolutely no reason to run Pignite over Monferno. There's so many more benefits of running Monferno, and there are little to no things about Pignite that make it more appealing than Monferno.
Okay there's a bunch of noms I want to discuss whilst I'm here, but I'll be pretty short and sweet and try and cover most of them:
Bouff -> A : I agree with this, I would argue that its sub SD set is extremely dangerous right now as I've tried it with speed pass, it comes in on the switch in, chews a hit and can then sweep teams near effortlessly whilst having near perfect coverage. I would argue that ghosts are near non-existent right now and it makes for an excellent time using bouffalant. However, if that were to change, i could also see it being moved down again in the future, however for now I agree with this nom.
Gourgeist -> A- : I disagree, gourgeist is still remarkably consistent at checking nearly every physical attacker in the tier in one slot with near no support needed, I would argue that despite machoke leaving the tier, gourgeist still does its job extremely effectively.
Zweilous -> D : Completely disagree with this nomination. Leafeon is gaining a lot of popularity and zwei has enough power and coverage to get past almost all of its checks and counters. I have used it a couple of times, for example during machoke meta whereby it was checked more than it is currently and I would argue that this tier shift helped zwei, not for it to warrant a drop. I think spamming CB crunches, outrages to the ever so common fairy-less teams and even having coverage for things like mawile, I would say that zweilous is threatening as ever.
Basculin -> B+ : Completely disagree, floatzel is far more threatening and I would argue that it outclasses it in every way except for potentially a more powerful aqua jet / waterfall. It's not enough of a niche to warrant a rise, despite how much success you'd have been having with basculin, i would argue that you'd have equally successful games with floatzel, if not more successful games whereby the extra speed comes in handy.
Lopunny -> D : I would also disagree with this nomination as in your post, you mentioned it comparatively speaking to all the other normal types when in reality, it is ranked where it is because of its niche to baton pass cosmic powers, which is a niche that is done extremely well whilst also having coverage options for things like encore which can allow free setup turns and also sub. I would argue that again, in the current meta, despite the hype around lopunny going down a tad, with the removal of machoke, leaving us with 1 viable fighting type pokemon in the tier, it makes lopunny's job a hell of a lot easier in fact. Which would suggest that if CP pass were to gain popularity again, I would find it very hard to deal with it, hence I will disagree further with this nomination.
Pignite -> D : I disagree with this nomination. It's not got enough of a niche going for it to warrant a rank when its outclassed for the most part by monferno in every aspect apart from a slightly higher base attack which doesn't make enough of a difference when warranting 2 hit kos. (Also, CB ferno is an alright set >:( ) For the most part, I am usually the guy who nominates weird shit, but I would say that pig is too outclassed by a much better pokemon. Higher base speed, better setup options, u-turn for choiced sets, better fighting stab than superpower. etc etc.
Mawile -> A+ : Now this is a nomination I am interested in and I am actually on the fence about. With the decrease of machoke, there has been an increase in normal attacking wall breakers being used instead, like stoutland for example which aids mawile's presence on teams. Whilst it also has the ability to run several different sets to cope with its checks. secondly, the amount of probopass being used has dramatically decreased since pupl, so I would also argue that it is more effective on teams. However the rise of golem usage since edge-quake resists are at a minimal right now and the increase in monferno to replace machoke is allowing me to believe that mawile will dip and rise in usage, and it will depend on the team support it receives. Defensively speaking, I like the pivot set a lot as it can gain momentum extremely easily and I have used it a lot in the past month. Offensively speaking, it breaks balance rather easily and i would say it is rather under-prepared for right now. I would say I am still on the fence about this nomination, however I could see it go through potentially.
Electabuzz -> C+ : I've not used ebuzz or raichu as i believe zebstrika is superior at the fast revenger killer role. I feel as if the extra bulk you're gaining when using ebuzz isn't worth the drop in speed that it will bring than if you were to use zebstrika or raichu, whilst also suffering from a worse ability. I'm not sure why it has suddenly gained attention now and i don't understand the niche in running it at all when you have 3 superior electric types in the tier all in the top ranks. I'll disagree with this nomination.
Fraxure -> B- : I will disagree with this nomination as i don't feel that the reasons are strong enough to warrant a drop. However, I haven't used fraxure enough to really comment on this.
I kinda want to nominate Compeditive Gothitelle to rise for it's niche in defog ''Blocking/Punishing''.
While gothitelle normaly lacks offence in SpA and speed it can unlike Mr.Mime/Kadabra/Grumpig/Duosion take advantage of an essential for ballenced teams.
Gothitelle can block the common defoggers Offencive Swanna, Prinplup, Lumineon, Vullaby(Can Pivot + Knock to remove item) and the oh so important Pidgeot/Noctowl. All but Prinplup/Vullaby are a reliable 1HKO from Thunderbolt against there standert sets while Prinplup/Vullaby are a 2HKO.
To do this it need max HP. It can also make use of intimidate users like Arbok however even that can be an issue as Gunk can 2HKO.
It also lacks recovery but it still has some utility to provide in terms of coverage as it has Energie Ball, Thunder Wave and Healbell and could even provide Trick Room support to give it a little more space when compairing other Psychic types. If anything else to note it could even make use of Chesto berry and rest as a short term solution to it's lack in recovery as it's defences while not amazing are still very decent.
It currently resides in the E-ranking allong with other generally niche lacking pokemon however I still think the above defined niche should be notable enough as the only pokemon to take on defog users: Pawniard, doesn't like taking on Scald Burns and can't reliably switch into Swanna/Prinplup/Lumineon.
I do not know as to how high this niche should be ranked but I wanted to point the utility the niche can provide in the metagame.
Teddeh Cosmic Power + Baton Pass is noting more than a bad gimmick. It's completely unable to touch Ghost-types at all, only being able to force them out with Encore. No reliable recovery outside of leftovers, extremely vulnerable to being phazed, very passive with a below average base 76 attack. I could go on, but let's just say it needs a lot of support to be even remotely effective at all.
Teddeh Cosmic Power + Baton Pass is noting more than a bad gimmick. It's completely unable to touch Ghost-types at all, only being able to force them out with Encore. No reliable recovery outside of leftovers, extremely vulnerable to being phazed, very passive with a below average base 76 attack. I could go on, but let's just say it needs a lot of support to be even remotely effective at all.
Well the offensive potential in PU, some of the threats we have with even just +1 +1 in defense and special defense, it's amazing how much work they can do whilst being paired with lopunny's support. Articuno, regigigas, monferno, beheeyem, stoutland, Bouffalant... i can go on. It's an extremely dangerous tactic and you say it is vulnerable to phazing, I've been using speed pass on the ladder for the last 100 games or so and I've not found 1 phazer on a team. The best options the tier has is roar gabite, whirlwind grumpig or roar altaria. Which all 3 of these aren't particularly common and they are easily worn down with the exclusion of altaria, but niche counters to say the least.
whilst the ghost type arguments only apply to misdreavus, which is a counter, i will concede, but not every team has one.
Teddeh Cosmic Power + Baton Pass is noting more than a bad gimmick. It's completely unable to touch Ghost-types at all, only being able to force them out with Encore. No reliable recovery outside of leftovers, extremely vulnerable to being phazed, very passive with a below average base 76 attack. I could go on, but let's just say it needs a lot of support to be even remotely effective at all.
While Lopunnys best set imo still is offensive LO w/Thunder Wave i must say CPpass is a something to be wary of...While Cosmic Power on it's own still is and always will be a rather gimmick reliability strat actualy "CPpass" into an offensive mon (the few Teddeh listed for example) is a threatening thing to come across even in some cases just winning.
Speaking of which on the actual nomination...well no Lopunny has a lot more of a benefit in this meta compared to the prior especially if you take all its sets into consideration, The main points you made were comparisons to pokemon that had only one or two similarities however they don't perform the same role which is rather ridiculous...Lopunny is best used as an Offensive Support utilizing its speed,usable attack stat,Stab+Fighting coverage and immense utility options to assist your team through out the game it is not a Wallbreaker,Tank,Wall or Set-Up Pokemon of course it is not going to be effective compared to the pokemon listed who do perform those roles.
The Pignite nominations have also gotten to a rather ridiculous point for something that barely has a niche (strong fighting stab is not good enough) the only comparison made was towards Monferno (which is still better U-Turn,Speed and other goodies) yet there is no mention of Simisear and Rapidash which are able to provide further utility...hell if i wanted a wallbreaker i'd still go with Flareon or even Heatmor who have further advantages then Pignite.
The thing about Pignite is not only the difference in base attack but also in base HP which will allow Pig to handle a few attacks that Ferno could not like:
252 SpA Life Orb Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pignite: 346-408 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (it does handle Scarf Mime even better with a 2Hko after SR)
252+ SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pignite: 270-320 (70.3 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pignite: 307-367 (79.9 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (HPump has a 87,5% of OHKOing... A little bit of defensive investment can help with those chances)
252 Atk Dodrio Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Pignite: 160-189 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (BB has the same chance to OHKO than Float Hpump... But its the only attack that can deal with Pig)
Those are a few examples of attacks that could kick Ferno out and Pignite will handle...
Also, STAB Iron Fist boosted MP from Monferno hits 78 base power while Pigs Sucker Punch still has 80 and it will come from a higher base attack which will do more damage in a neutral basis... Also, a few things that are faster like Mime and Dabra will receive A LOT more damage from SP than from Mach Punch...
Then in the end its a comparison like Floatzel and Basculin... Sure, Floatzel will still be the superior option in most cases but Basculin is still a decent option with some aditional perks... That's why we feel Pignite should be ranked...
Wow there are a lot of unranked nominations. For the record though, not sold that bouff is quite that great/splashable, geist is a bit early, lopunny sucks but I guess it's fine, zweilous and basculin don't need to change, mawile just isn't that great, and I don't see why buzz should drop now when it's been doing the same thing for so long and I manage to actively fit it on teams way more than armaldo, let alone marowak or avalugg, because it has a solidly defined niche that makes me want to use it.
So the thing about Pignite is that none of the arguments are really that great when put into context. For example, Rennyjesus has all of those calcs right there, but ignoring how incredibly situational they are they only apply to a bulky Eviolite Pignite which I'd never want to run. For one, after one round of Flare Blitz recoil+Rocks or a drop from Superpower, Pignite doesn't have the chance to live those anyway. It's like how Guts Machoke was really easy to force out. For another, why do we want it to be really slow and easy to revenge? For a wallbreaker in this meta, unless they fulfill a very specific purpose like Zweilous's resistances and bulk, running something this slow without boosting is just asking for trouble. As far as I can tell, the only potential niche lies with the CB set Slowbroth posted in the original nomination. Unfortunately, the reasons for using this over CB Monferno were "stronger priority", "stronger overall", and usable speed as long as you're not facing offense. The problem with this is that the speed is stupidly crucial and the strength is not. CB Monferno KOs just about everything Pignite fails to. They're both gonna be prediction reliant in knowing when to wild charge or superpower, but when you're getting the right moves off Monferno picks up almost every KO and can make up the ones it misses out on with smart chip and hazards. There's Clefairy, there's the incredibly relevant physically defensive altaria which is still chippable, and that's really about it. Meanwhile, the speed is crucial for having some kind of team synergy. Pignite is a mon you have to dance around just to get it in safely on the specific things it can kill thanks to its poor defenses and speed, kind of like Rampardos but less likely to KO anything. Monferno has even worse bulk, absolutely, but the difference here is you have the ability to threaten Gabite, Huntail, Relicanth, Altaria, Arbok, Stoutland, and those are the more relevant things I can list from speed tiers. This isn't even going into how nice U-Turn is for keeping up offensive momentum and doing a decent amount of damage. It's way easier to get monferno in on things when it's actually faster than them. And as far as more usable bulk goes, they both have awful bulk and take practically the same amount of hits minus an absolutely full health pignite with no drops or chip sacrificing itself to survive one hit from scarf mime. To rank Pignite, we'd need replays concretely showing how this extra power/bulk really helps in a lot of games rather than a single replay OHKOing Altaria turn 1 out of surprise factor vs a team with no switching to CB Monferno CC with rocks up anyway. Hopefully that covers absolutely everything about Pignite so we can move on from this terrible mon save some actual replays or something to show us why this isn't just a pile of trash.
Yanma's decent coverage, base 75 SpA and access to Speed Boost give it a niche in PU which is not reflected by the fact it is currently unranked- one can only assume through simply not being considered yet. A reasonable person would not argue for making Yanma much more than D-Rank, though, as it does possess a number of considerable flaws.
Yanma's most impressive feat is that it can 1v1 Floatzel, PU's only S-rank mon, and come out on top due to its ability to OHKO Floatzel after Stealth Rocks- for this, Protect is required to guarantee getting off a Speed Boost, and Giga Drain is needed for its supereffective coverage. It is also worth noting that in order for the OHKO to be guaranteed, Yanma must be running Modest nature, rather than Timid, (but Modest is preferable anyway due to Speed Boost), and must hold a Life Orb or an item that gives similar boosts.
It can also 1v1 some A-rank mons, such as Leafeon (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-401591666 Turn 1 to 2), Simisage, Relicanth and Jumpluff.
Yanma can deal with some prominent leads well, including Leavanny and Roselia, and it can put Golem and Monferno into sash/sturdy range.
There is also the possibility to replace Giga Drain with Psychic, Shadow Ball, Ancientpower, or HP fighting in order to give Yanma different coverage depending on what its team needs, with Arbok,
Yanma 2HKOs a large portion of the PU meta, making it difficult to switch in against, and able to punish passive foes. (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-401591666 Turn 8 to 10, http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-401567925 turn 9 to 13)
It also poses a threat as a revenge killer- opponents must either sacrifice the mon they currently have in, or risk losing whatever they switch into due to Yanma's ability to 2HKO. Admittedly, though, there are a number of mons which Yanma simply cannot touch, with steel-types such as Mawile (http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-pu-401591666 Turns 3, 11 and 15) and Probopass being a prominent example of this.
If such mons are dealt with by the rest of one's team, Yanma has the potential to become a late game sweeper thanks to its ability to pick off weakened mons.
Its mediocre bug-flying typing leaves much to be desired, most notably leaving it 4x weak to rock, meaning Yanma will suffer if not supported by hazard removal. There is a potential to use this to one's advantage, though, as sending Yanma in twice while rocks are up leaves it on 1HP, allowing it to utilise a Petaya berry. Such a set would likely prefer endure to protect, though it would be left vulnerable to priority attacks.
Its typing's only main redemption is that it allows Yanma to be one of the few fast Special Attackers which isn't crippled by Sticky Webs, but admittedly this role is usually done better by others, such as Chatot and Rotom-F.
EDIT: Turns out it only posted an earlier version of my argument... I've lost like 5 hours works here!! :( Oh well, if this argument isn't sufficient to get Yanma to D-Rank, I guess I'll have to re-try another time... Anyway, it's 3am here, so I'mma go... Night all!
Yanma is an interesting mon that definitely looks nice on paper, but the problem with this mon is that it's just functionally terrible as a sweeper. Its frailty and weakness make it incredibly easy to check, and if I noticed one thing in common about your replays it's that this sweeper never actually sweeps. It only ever puts in work because your opponents don't KO it by not using Avalanche or simply leave in a grass type on a bug flying type for two turns. We have very strong special wallbreakers like Chatot, two Bug-type cleaners in Ninjask or even Quiver Dance Butterfree, and a ton of mons without horrid bulk before stealth rock cuts that in half. And I mean, picking off weakened mons is something stronger Pokemon like Chatot can do, there's fairly weak and then there's barely having a favorable chance to KO Zebstrika after rocks at +1 thanks to the petaya with a modest nature. I do appreciate the effort put into actually getting multiple replays to support this, but I still don't see why you'd reasonably want to clean with it, and particularly the Ninjask comparison would really need to be addressed.
I kinda want to nominate Compeditive Gothitelle to rise for it's niche in defog ''Blocking/Punishing''.
While gothitelle normaly lacks offence in SpA and speed it can unlike Mr.Mime/Kadabra/Grumpig/Duosion take advantage of an essential for ballenced teams.
Gothitelle can block the common defoggers Offencive Swanna, Prinplup, Lumineon, Vullaby(Can Pivot + Knock to remove item) and the oh so important Pidgeot/Noctowl. All but Prinplup/Vullaby are a reliable 1HKO from Thunderbolt against there standert sets while Prinplup/Vullaby are a 2HKO.
To do this it need max HP. It can also make use of intimidate users like Arbok however even that can be an issue as Gunk can 2HKO.
It also lacks recovery but it still has some utility to provide in terms of coverage as it has Energie Ball, Thunder Wave and Healbell and could even provide Trick Room support to give it a little more space when compairing other Psychic types. If anything else to note it could even make use of Chesto berry and rest as a short term solution to it's lack in recovery as it's defences while not amazing are still very decent.
It currently resides in the E-ranking allong with other generally niche lacking pokemon however I still think the above defined niche should be notable enough as the only pokemon to take on defog users: Pawniard, doesn't like taking on Scald Burns and can't reliably switch into Swanna/Prinplup/Lumineon.
I do not know as to how high this niche should be ranked but I wanted to point the utility the niche can provide in the metagame.
The thing about Gothitelle is that competitive is its singular niche over better choices like Grumpig, Mr Mime, Duosion, Beheeyem, Kadabra, etc. and the fact is that simply punishing defog a bit isn't enough to justify it over all of these better choices with way more to offer. Switching into defog simply isn't all that important when all of the previous mons have one or more sets which are potent stallbreakers before they have to switch into a certain move which people might not be so willing to go for if they see a Gothitelle. If it runs specs you become abusable (vullaby+golem 50/50s for example) while LO wastes that bulk and everything else is comparatively weak. Meanwhile its support movepool doesn't really help when it has to run offensive to abuse the competitive, and it has really poor speed for a breaker where at least Beheeyem has analytic/trick room and duosion just boosts regardless of speed. I agree that gothitelle isn't really a horrible choice but it's sorta like Kricketune in that it'll set webs perfectly fine but when you get right down to it Leavanny is just leagues better so it's E rank because there's no reason to use it. If you block a defog, you might get a single KO before being forced out. That's really about it.
e: competitive boosts twice not once oops.
The thing about Pignite is not only the difference in base attack but also in base HP which will allow Pig to handle a few attacks that Ferno could not like:
252 SpA Life Orb Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pignite: 346-408 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (it does handle Scarf Mime even better with a 2Hko after SR)
252+ SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pignite: 270-320 (70.3 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pignite: 307-367 (79.9 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (HPump has a 87,5% of OHKOing... A little bit of defensive investment can help with those chances)
252 Atk Dodrio Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Pignite: 160-189 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (BB has the same chance to OHKO than Float Hpump... But its the only attack that can deal with Pig)
Those are a few examples of attacks that could kick Ferno out and Pignite will handle...
Also, STAB Iron Fist boosted MP from Monferno hits 78 base power while Pigs Sucker Punch still has 80 and it will come from a higher base attack which will do more damage in a neutral basis... Also, a few things that are faster like Mime and Dabra will receive A LOT more damage from SP than from Mach Punch...
Then in the end its a comparison like Floatzel and Basculin... Sure, Floatzel will still be the superior option in most cases but Basculin is still a decent option with some aditional perks... That's why we feel Pignite should be ranked...
About the Sucker punch point: why would you run CB sucker? It's a huge momentum suck because it gives them free rocks, an easy setup opportunity, or in general a forced switch on your part. That's really not what you want when you are running offense or balance, which is what you claim Pignite fits best on.
About the Sucker punch point: why would you run CB sucker? It's a huge momentum suck because it gives them free rocks, an easy setup opportunity, or in general a forced switch on your part. That's really not what you want when you are running offense or balance, which is what you claim Pignite fits best on.
I have never mentioned CB Sucker Punch... That's pretty much moronic IMO cuz it can be absurdly abusable...
And about the calcs, while they are situational they just illustrate a few cases in which you would happily trade Pignite to weaken or obliterate shit and then Ferno could clean with ease... In the end, we are not expecting Pignite to be at Monferno level (far from that) but I'm trying to evoke whats happening with Floatzel and Basculin... Floatzel is as strong as Basculin and its A LOT faster, However Basculin has a slightly different coverage selection and stronger STAB and Priority moves...
Then, why Basculin is like B Rank and Pignite can't be C-? They are both clearly outclassed mons with some perks that give them a situational niche...
I have never mentioned CB Sucker Punch... That's pretty much moronic IMO cuz it can be absurdly abusable...
And about the calcs, while they are situational they just illustrate a few cases in which you would happily trade Pignite to weaken or obliterate shit and then Ferno could clean with ease... In the end, we are not expecting Pignite to be at Monferno level (far from that) but I'm trying to evoke whats happening with Floatzel and Basculin... Floatzel is as strong as Basculin and its A LOT faster, However Basculin has a slightly different coverage selection and stronger STAB and Priority moves...
Then, why Basculin is like B Rank and Pignite can't be C-? They are both clearly outclassed mons with some perks that give them a situational niche...
I'm sorry, I got you confused with the person who said CB pignite would be the only "good" set. I still don't see your point here. Your comparision of Floatzel vs. Basculin and Monferno vs. Pignite is not justified imo. Basculin has significantly stronger priority and Water-type moves than Floatzel, along with different coverage. Basculin's LO Aqua Jet does more to everything than Floatzel's CB Jet, and same with Waterfall. With a Life Orb on Floatzel, Basculin does significantly more instead of just a little. Even though Basculin doesn't have Ice Punch, it has Ice Beam and ZHB. Floatzel is not like a strictly better Basculin or anything, Basculin is a better Water-spammer.
Through this logic, your argument of why Pignite should be ranked because of Basculin's higher ranking is invalid. Pignite's niche is so little that it is not even worth ranking, as it it outclassed by Monferno 99% of the time.
edit I know you were calcing max hp pignite, I still don't think it's good
I apologise for making the same nomination (Yanma to D-Rank) twice, but the last time I posted half my argument was cut out and I feel I didn’t do Yanma justice in my last post.
The following argument is based primarily on a special attacker set.
Yanma’s 95 Speed, 75 SpA and access to the ability Speed Boost give it amazing potential as a special attacker. Give it a single turn on the field and its speed rises to 434- enough to outspeed every mon in the tier except +Speed Ninjask, before items or other boosts of course.
Give Yanma two turns on the field, and it will outspeed pretty much everything, including scarfers.
Here is an example of Yanma using its speed to its full potential against Teddeh’s speed pass team (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-403339514 turn 11 to 15)- there are very few mons who can outspeed a +3 Marowak, and Yanma’s Speed Boost was the only thing which allowed me to do this in order to put Marowak into KO range of Floatzel’s Aqua Jet. This is demonstrative of Yanma’s primary asset- its incredible speed.
The second thing Yanma has going for it is it’s great coverage. A typical set looks as follows:
The 4th coverage option should be either: Giga Drain, Ancientpower, HP Ice or HP Electric. Other HP types, Shadow Ball and Psychic are also possibilities, but the previous options give Yanma the best OHKO coverage. There is also a possibility to drop Protect in order to maximise courage, but this leaves Yanma relying on revenge killing a slow mon in order to get the speed it needs to work.
Below is a list of mons which can be OHKOd by this Yanma, corresponding to the move Yanma should use in order to OHKO. Mons which are not guaranteed OHKOs will be followed by (N%/X%) where N is the percentage chance of an OHKO before rocks and X is the percentage chance of an OHKO after rocks. Please note that I have only considered mons which are C+ rank or above, as anything below that is so uncommon, and there are so many E-Rank mons, that it’s not worth considering them all. A brief look over lower viability categories shows that Yanma is able to deal with a large portion of these mons, too. Also note that if a mon can be OHKOd by more than one move, it is only listed under whichever move is more reliable (e.g. listed under Bug Buzz rather than Air Slash because of accuracy) unless it is OHKOd by a move in the “4th slot”, in which case it is listed both times- to compare the usefulness of each move in the 4th slot. My source for these is the following link: https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/
With 41 (and more e.g. HP Water for Camerupt, HP Fighting for Pawniard) out of 85 C+ or higher ranked mons being potential OHKOs for Yanma, it’s coverage is excellent. It can deal with huge portions of the higher end of the PU metagame very well, and is very diverse as a special attacker.
It also poses a threat as a revenge killer- opponents must either sacrifice the mon they currently have in, or risk losing whatever they switch into (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-401772305 Turn 4 to 7) due to Yanma's ability to 2HKO. Admittedly, though, there are a number of mons which Yanma simply cannot touch, with steel-types such as Mawile (http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-pu-401591666 Turns 3, 11 and 15) and Probopass being a prominent example of this. The other problem Yanma has is with very bulky mons with recovery, such as Audino.
If such mons are dealt with by the rest of one's team, Yanma has the potential to become a late game sweeper (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-401781942 Turn 19 to 23) thanks to its ability to pick off weakened mons.
Its mediocre bug-flying typing leaves much to be desired, most notably leaving it 4x weak to rock, meaning Yanma will suffer if not supported by hazard removal. There is a potential to use this to one's advantage, though, as sending Yanma in twice while rocks are up leaves it on 1HP, allowing it to utilise a Petaya berry. Such a set would likely prefer endure to protect, though it would be left vulnerable to priority attacks.
Its typing's only main redemption is that it allows Yanma to be one of the few fast special attackers which isn't crippled by Sticky Webs, but admittedly this role is usually done better by others, such as Chatot and Rotom-F. Comparison to Ninjask
Yanma and Ninjask are very similar mons, both with a bug-flying typing and access to Speed Boost. Though Ninjask usually runs either a Baton Pass or Choice Band set, stick a Life Orb on it and it becomes comparable to this Yanma set.
Ninjask’s main advantage over Yanma in their role is that it has a higher base attack than Yanma’s SpA. This allows it to usually hit harder with X-Scissor and Aerial Ace than Yanma does with Bug Buzz and Air Slash, depending on the defending mon’s Def/SpD of course.
Where Yanma comes into its own, however, is with its better coverage- Ninjask can run X-Scissor, Aerial Ace, Protect and then has no real options for its 4th slot as coverage… U-Turn provides no coverage not already given by X-Scissor, and Dig and Metal Claw provide very little new coverage and are hilariously unviable. Night Slash is a possibility, but once again, fails to bring Ninjask’s coverage up to anywhere near as good as Yanma’s.
Yanma’s other advantage over Ninjask is that being a special attacker comes with its benefits- predominately, not being hit as hard by confusion, burn or Foul Play, and its usage of non-contact moves protecting it from Rocky Helmet, Static and the like. Flinch hax in Air Slash are also very nice. Comparison to Butterfree
Butterfree is also a hot contender for Yanma in this role, with more or less identical coverage to Yanma’s in it’s access to Bug Buzz, Air Cutter, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Energy Ball and of course all the HPs.
Butterfree has two big flaws that Yanma doesn’t have, though- it is vulnerable while setting up and it is slow. In order for Butterfree to fulfill the above role Yanma does, it has to get off a Quiver Dance, which leaves it wide open to attacks from aggressive foes, while Yanma need only worry about opponent’s setting up while it is using Protect.
Butterfree’s 90 SpA to Yanma’s 75 is notable, but it’s 70 speed to Yanma’s 95 + speed boost allows Yanma to leave it in the dust. Where Butterfree gets outsped and OHKOd, Yanma often can outspeed and OHKO.
Comparison to Chatot
Chatot is also a special attacker, whose flying type protects it from sticky webs in a similar manner. Chatot’s higher base SpA and access to STAB Boomburst and Heat Wave allows it to hit a lot harder in most situations, but without access to Giga Drain, it can’t punish water mons such as Relicanth as easily. The lack of a considerable Flying STAB beyond HP Flying is also notable.
Chatot can’t keep up with Yanma’s speed without being choicelocked by Choice Scarf.
In most situations, Chatot is better, but if your team specifically needs flying or grass-type coverage, needs insane amounts of speed, or you’re caught in a situation where you need flinch hax from Air Slash, Yanma comes out on top in some cases. Conclusion on Yanma
Yanma’s main niche is in its overwhelming speed, with the only mon able to keep up with it being Ninjask, who lacks the coverage to fill the niche that Yanma does.
Special attackers with the coverage that Yanma has don’t have the insane speed required to keep up with it, without sacrificing their coverage in opting for a Choice Scarf.
Yanma’s biggest weakness, and the main reason to use other mons over it, is it’s relatively low SpA compared to other special attackers. That said, the long list of high-ranked mons who Yanma can OHKO anyway indicates that this is by no means a crippling flaw. Yanma’s 75 SpA isn’t exactly to be sniffed at, either, when compared to Zebstrika’s 80, for instance.
Yanma’s extremely high speed and excellent coverage give it a special attacking niche that no other mon can fill without a considerable amount of setup, leaving said mon vulnerable to being attacked, statused or set up on.
All things considered, Yanma has a niche unique to it which, though it will admittedly never be S-Rank material, ought to put Yanma firmly within D-Rank, in order to give Yanma the recognition it deserves.
I apologise for making the same nomination (Yanma to D-Rank) twice, but the last time I posted half my argument was cut out and I feel I didn’t do Yanma justice in my last post.
The following argument is based primarily on a special attacker set.
Yanma’s 95 Speed, 75 SpA and access to the ability Speed Boost give it amazing potential as a special attacker. Give it a single turn on the field and its speed rises to 434- enough to outspeed every mon in the tier except +Speed Ninjask, before items or other boosts of course.
Give Yanma two turns on the field, and it will outspeed pretty much everything, including scarfers.
Here is an example of Yanma using its speed to its full potential against Teddeh’s speed pass team (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-403339514 turn 11 to 15)- there are very few mons who can outspeed a +3 Marowak, and Yanma’s Speed Boost was the only thing which allowed me to do this in order to put Marowak into KO range of Floatzel’s Aqua Jet. This is demonstrative of Yanma’s primary asset- its incredible speed.
The second thing Yanma has going for it is it’s great coverage. A typical set looks as follows:
The 4th coverage option should be either: Giga Drain, Ancientpower, HP Ice or HP Electric. Other HP types, Shadow Ball and Psychic are also possibilities, but the previous options give Yanma the best OHKO coverage. There is also a possibility to drop Protect in order to maximise courage, but this leaves Yanma relying on revenge killing a slow mon in order to get the speed it needs to work.
Below is a list of mons which can be OHKOd by this Yanma, corresponding to the move Yanma should use in order to OHKO. Mons which are not guaranteed OHKOs will be followed by (N%/X%) where N is the percentage chance of an OHKO before rocks and X is the percentage chance of an OHKO after rocks. Please note that I have only considered mons which are C+ rank or above, as anything below that is so uncommon, and there are so many E-Rank mons, that it’s not worth considering them all. A brief look over lower viability categories shows that Yanma is able to deal with a large portion of these mons, too. Also note that if a mon can be OHKOd by more than one move, it is only listed under whichever move is more reliable (e.g. listed under Bug Buzz rather than Air Slash because of accuracy) unless it is OHKOd by a move in the “4th slot”, in which case it is listed both times- to compare the usefulness of each move in the 4th slot. My source for these is the following link: https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/
With 41 (and more e.g. HP Water for Camerupt, HP Fighting for Pawniard) out of 85 C+ or higher ranked mons being potential OHKOs for Yanma, it’s coverage is excellent. It can deal with huge portions of the higher end of the PU metagame very well, and is very diverse as a special attacker.
It also poses a threat as a revenge killer- opponents must either sacrifice the mon they currently have in, or risk losing whatever they switch into (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-401772305 Turn 4 to 7) due to Yanma's ability to 2HKO. Admittedly, though, there are a number of mons which Yanma simply cannot touch, with steel-types such as Mawile (http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-pu-401591666 Turns 3, 11 and 15) and Probopass being a prominent example of this. The other problem Yanma has is with very bulky mons with recovery, such as Audino.
If such mons are dealt with by the rest of one's team, Yanma has the potential to become a late game sweeper (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-401781942 Turn 19 to 23) thanks to its ability to pick off weakened mons.
Its mediocre bug-flying typing leaves much to be desired, most notably leaving it 4x weak to rock, meaning Yanma will suffer if not supported by hazard removal. There is a potential to use this to one's advantage, though, as sending Yanma in twice while rocks are up leaves it on 1HP, allowing it to utilise a Petaya berry. Such a set would likely prefer endure to protect, though it would be left vulnerable to priority attacks.
Its typing's only main redemption is that it allows Yanma to be one of the few fast special attackers which isn't crippled by Sticky Webs, but admittedly this role is usually done better by others, such as Chatot and Rotom-F. Comparison to Ninjask
Yanma and Ninjask are very similar mons, both with a bug-flying typing and access to Speed Boost. Though Ninjask usually runs either a Baton Pass or Choice Band set, stick a Life Orb on it and it becomes comparable to this Yanma set.
Ninjask’s main advantage over Yanma in their role is that it has a higher base attack than Yanma’s SpA. This allows it to usually hit harder with X-Scissor and Aerial Ace than Yanma does with Bug Buzz and Air Slash, depending on the defending mon’s Def/SpD of course.
Where Yanma comes into its own, however, is with its better coverage- Ninjask can run X-Scissor, Aerial Ace, Protect and then has no real options for its 4th slot as coverage… U-Turn provides no coverage not already given by X-Scissor, and Dig and Metal Claw provide very little new coverage and are hilariously unviable. Night Slash is a possibility, but once again, fails to bring Ninjask’s coverage up to anywhere near as good as Yanma’s.
Yanma’s other advantage over Ninjask is that being a special attacker comes with its benefits- predominately, not being hit as hard by confusion, burn or Foul Play, and its usage of non-contact moves protecting it from Rocky Helmet, Static and the like. Flinch hax in Air Slash are also very nice. Comparison to Butterfree
Butterfree is also a hot contender for Yanma in this role, with more or less identical coverage to Yanma’s in it’s access to Bug Buzz, Air Cutter, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Energy Ball and of course all the HPs.
Butterfree has two big flaws that Yanma doesn’t have, though- it is vulnerable while setting up and it is slow. In order for Butterfree to fulfill the above role Yanma does, it has to get off a Quiver Dance, which leaves it wide open to attacks from aggressive foes, while Yanma need only worry about opponent’s setting up while it is using Protect.
Butterfree’s 90 SpA to Yanma’s 75 is notable, but it’s 70 speed to Yanma’s 95 + speed boost allows Yanma to leave it in the dust. Where Butterfree gets outsped and OHKOd, Yanma often can outspeed and OHKO.
Comparison to Chatot
Chatot is also a special attacker, whose flying type protects it from sticky webs in a similar manner. Chatot’s higher base SpA and access to STAB Boomburst and Heat Wave allows it to hit a lot harder in most situations, but without access to Giga Drain, it can’t punish water mons such as Relicanth as easily. The lack of a considerable Flying STAB beyond HP Flying is also notable.
Chatot can’t keep up with Yanma’s speed without being choicelocked by Choice Scarf.
In most situations, Chatot is better, but if your team specifically needs flying or grass-type coverage, needs insane amounts of speed, or you’re caught in a situation where you need flinch hax from Air Slash, Yanma comes out on top in some cases. Conclusion on Yanma
Yanma’s main niche is in its overwhelming speed, with the only mon able to keep up with it being Ninjask, who lacks the coverage to fill the niche that Yanma does.
Special attackers with the coverage that Yanma has don’t have the insane speed required to keep up with it, without sacrificing their coverage in opting for a Choice Scarf.
Yanma’s biggest weakness, and the main reason to use other mons over it, is it’s relatively low SpA compared to other special attackers. That said, the long list of high-ranked mons who Yanma can OHKO anyway indicates that this is by no means a crippling flaw. Yanma’s 75 SpA isn’t exactly to be sniffed at, either, when compared to Zebstrika’s 80, for instance.
Yanma’s extremely high speed and excellent coverage give it a special attacking niche that no other mon can fill without a considerable amount of setup, leaving said mon vulnerable to being attacked, statused or set up on.
All things considered, Yanma has a niche unique to it which, though it will admittedly never be S-Rank material, ought to put Yanma firmly within D-Rank, in order to give Yanma the recognition it deserves.
You make a good case for Yanma, and I agree that it should be placed in D-rank. I haven't used Yanma myself outside of a slightly gimmicky team involving Nastypassing from Hypno. And unfortunately your replays aren't useful because the teambuilding from you and your opponents is pretty inexperienced/unviable. However, I can definitely see the usefulness of Yanma as a lategame cleaner. In PU, resists to the combination of Bug Buzz and Air Slash are pretty sparse, especially on offensive teams. Common offensive pokemon such as Floatzel, Zebstrika, Grumpig, and Monferno are easily revenge killed after just a few rounds of Life Orb recoil or hazards, which are not difficult to obtain or not. With the proper support, Yanma can definitely clean up teams late-game. While it does face competition from Ninjask, the fact that it's a special attacker does give it a niche, as it is able to hit Ninjask's common checks such as Golem, Mawile, Stunfisk, and Vullaby much harder. Obviously Yanma has some huge flaws, such as its weakness to priority other than Monferno's Mach Punch, and its middling power. I would also argue that most Yanma teams should utilize hazard removal in order to use it to its potential, which makes it much harder to fit onto teams. That should prevent it from rising any higher in rank. From what I've seen though, Yanma is a fairly dangerous special attacker and revenge killer that is worth a place on some teams.
Glaceon from C- to C+/B- Honestly, this thing is so underrated. I've only used the choice specs set and this thing nearly 2hkos the entire meta with a modest Ice Beam. With the right prediction, you will always get off a hard hit on the switch-in. Shadow Ball for example has the chance to kill Grumpig after rocks. Baton Pass is also a cool option for gaining momentum. With the natural bulk of this mon you will also survive strong hits like banded Stoutlands Return.
http://pastebin.com/PXYygj1u
This is a cool Volt-Turn team made by ManOfMany. It provides a lot of momentum and free switch-ins into Glaceon with 1 fast Volt Switcher, 1 fast U-Turner, 1 slow U-Turner and a Baton Passer.
