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[QC READY 2/3] Noivern

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by mafreel, Oct 23, 2013.

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  1. mafreel

    mafreel

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    [​IMG]




    [Pros]

    <ul>
    <li> Has good Speed and decent Special Attack stat.</li>
    <li> Access to powerful STAB like Draco Meteor and Hurricane. </li>
    <li> Infiltrator allows to overcome Reflect, Light Screen and Substitute too.</li>
    <li> Immune to Ground-type moves, Toxic Spikes, Spikes and Sticky Web. .</li>
    <li> There are plenty options in its movepool. </li>
    </ul>

    [Cons]

    <ul>
    <li>Weakness to Stealth Rock limit its way of switch in.</li>
    <li>Has serious Ice-type weakness.</li>
    <li>Noivern's Defence leaves to be desired.</li>
    <li> It's unable to deal with Fairy-type Pokemon. </li>
    </ul>


    [Set Recommendations]

    <p>Noivern @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf<br />
    Ability: Infiltrator<br />
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe <br />
    Naive Nature (+Spe, -SDef)<br />
    - Draco Meteor<br />
    - Hurricane / Air Slash<br />
    - Focus Blast / Flamethrower<br />
    - U-turn / Switcheroo </p>

    <p>Only has 97 special attack but he can count on 3 powerful albeit shaky moves. Draco Meteor is Noivern main stab and with Choice Specs only bulky Steel- and Fairy-type Pokemons can come in without problems. Hurricane is Noivern secondary STAB, thanks to the rain it can't miss, coupled with Focus Blast for steel-types and U-turn for Momentum Noivern can be a great finisher. But if there isn't the rain, Air Slash is a good choice too like Flamethrower that hits pokemons such as Ferrothorn and Scizor. Switcheroo can be better than U-turn against Stall teams or Pokemon like Skarmory.</p>

    <p> Faster than Greninja and Gengar scarfed and with the ability to use powerful Draco Meteor, coupled with U-turn and acceptable Special Attack stat makes Noivern an good revengekiller with Choice Scarf for an unexpected result in battle. </p>

    <p>With this EVs spread, Noivern outspeeds fast Pokemons such as Alakazam, Dugtrio, Starmie and Greninja; while on the other hand Noivern is able to outspeeds many fast Pokemons like max speed Timid Venusaur under sun and hit them hard with his powerful STABs. Mega Lucario and Mega Mawile are good teammates for Noivern. Thanks to their STABs, they hit hard some of Noivern's counters and checks such as Chansey, Blissey, and Tyranitar.
    </p>


    <p>Noivern @ Life Orb<br />
    Ability: Infiltrator / Frisk<br />
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe <br />
    IVs: 29 HP <br />
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk) / Naive Nature (+Spe, -SpD)<br />
    - Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse<br />
    - Hurricane / Air Slash / Boomburst<br />
    - Focus Blast / Flamethrower <br />
    - Roost / U-turn </p>

    <p> Life Orb allows Noivern to sweep without being locked in a single move, while at the same time, it gives the possibility to Noivern to use Roost, as a means for recovery. Similar at choice format: Draco Meteor is powerful STAB Dragon, but Dragon Pulse works without drops but with a little bit power less. Hurricane hits hard with its 110 base power with STAB, but if you haven't the weather with you, Air Slash is a good choice too with its 30% flinch rate. Also Boomburst is pretty good, isn't a STAB, but it has 140 base power and can hit pokemons behind a substitute also if Noivern hasn't Infiltrator. Focus Blast is for Tyranitar, Flamethrower, if the situation is like that of Hurricane, can replace Focus Blast for kill Pokemons as Ferrothorn and Scizor. Roost is for recovery from Life Orb damage, but U-turn is a good choice too to gain momentum when the opponent Pokemon switch out. 29 IVs in HP for less damage from Life orb.</p>

    <p>Frisk can be a good choice too. With this ability you can easily understand which item the opponent has and discover if it is ready for a mega evolution and so if it can outspeed Noivern. Good partners are again Mega Lucario and Mega Mawile for kill the best Noivern's Checks and Counters.</p>


    [Checks and Counters]

    <p> Blissey and Chansey haven't problems with Noivern's Focus Blast and can hit it with Seismic Toss, Toxic or Thunder Wave to make him useless. Special Defence Hippowdon has problem just with Hurricane from Choice Specs format if there is Stealth Rock but it is anyway a 2HKO and Hippowdon can use Ice Fang or Roar, besides the Sand reduces the accuracy of Hurricane.It's important to understand first and foremost what moves Noivern has , suffering from a 4th moveslot syndrome once the moveset is scouted is very easy to proceed accordingly. If Noivern has Focus Blast Pokemon like Mega Mawile can stop it quite easily, while if it has Flamethrower Tyranitar can brutally kill him.</p>

    <p>Gardevoir and Azumarill aren't scared by Noivern's Draco Meteor and Focus Blast and can kill it with their Fairy-type moves. There are many pokemons that can revengekill Noivern. First of all Mamoswine and the less used Weavile, can easily OHKO it with Ice Shard. Scizor hit it hard with Bullet Punch, same thing for Talonflame and its impressive priority STAB: Brave Bird. Choice Scarf Garchomp and Rotom-W can hit hard him in Choice Specs or Life Orb format, with Dragon moves or Hidden Power Ice.</p>

    <p>If that's not enough, Special Attack stat of 97 isn't that high in today metagame. It should also be noted that carrying U-turn, Noivern isn't completely counterable</p>
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2013
  2. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA The King
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    I understand this is your first analysis so I just want to say great job on it. Moving on, the Speed EVs need to be changed. You hit 379 while Greninja hits 377. I don't see any reason not to use maximum Speed EVs. Greninja is pretty relevant right now so you have to take it into account for sure. I will edit this post with more things as I do a bit more research and will notify you via PM when it is edited.

    I've redone it for you, simply C&P this into your post and remove the red parts.

    Nature used should NOT be timid if you are using U-Turn. This Pokemon is already super frail and the loss in sp.def defense isn't worth weakening U-Turn especially on the LO set. You can slash Timid with Naive.

    [Pros]


    <ul><li> Boasts great base speed</li>
    <li> It has 2 moves very strong with STAB (Draco meteor and Hurricane). </li>
    <li> New mechanic for Infiltrator. </li>
    <li> Ground immunity. </li>
    <li> Nice movepool and good coverage.</li>
    </ul>

    [Cons]


    <ul>
    <li>Weakness to Stealth Rock will inevitably limit its ability to switch in and out with impunity.</li>
    <li>4x weakness to Ice-type moves, </li>
    <li> Sports average base 97 Sp.Attack</li>
    <li> Hasn't special moves super effective against Fairy-types. </li>
    </li>
    </ul>

    [Set Recommendations]

    <p>Noivern @ Choice Specs<br />
    Ability: Infiltrator<br />
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe <br />
    Naive Nature (+Spe, -Atk)<br />
    - Draco Meteor<br />
    - Hurricane<br />
    - Focus Blast<br />
    - U-turn </p>

    <p> The Dragon-bat has just 97 Sp.Atk but it can count on 3 moves with more 100 bp, and in Choice Specs format, this Pokémon can hit very hard lots of threat. Draco Meteor is main STAB Dragon and after Choice Specs boost just steel-types take a few damage from this move (or nothing if Fairy Type). Hurricane is second STAB; with Politoed like partner, Noivern can be a wonderful Cleaner: 110 bp, with Choice Specs boost and with STAB, also after the nerf of the power and of the rain, this move is a nightmare yet; it can hit hard Fairy-types, but it isn't, unluckily, a supereffective move. The steel-types are a little problem, but there is Focus Blast right for this, it can hit hard Ferrothorn, Heatran, Tyranitar and is good for Skarmory. Flamethrower is another option, but unfortunately, it's a bad move with Hurricane, because this needs of rain. In the end U-turn is very good for scouting set or the strategy of the opponent, and it leaves offensive momentum too.</p>

    -Refer to Certain types 'eg. Steel-type' as 'Steel-type Pokemon' and not 'The Steel-types'
    -If Flamethrower is a bad option and is not slashed in the set, mention it in other options and not here in Set comments / Additional Comments


    <p>The evs spread is principaly for outspeed PoKémon like Alakazam or Dugtrio, and given that there aren't competitive Pokémons with more 120 Speed base, the rest is for HP.</p>

    The EVs are now set to outpace Greninja at full investment, mention the remaining 4 EVs go to Attack.

    <p>Noivern @ Life Orb<br />
    Ability: Infiltrator<br />
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe <br />
    IVs: 29 HP <br />
    Timid / Naive Nature (+Spe, -SpD)<br />
    - Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse<br />
    - Hurricane / Air Slash<br />
    - Focus Blast / Flamethrower <br />
    - Roost / U-turn </p>

    <p> Set Life Orber for a sweep without stay locked in a move. The first slot is a personal choice, Draco Meteor for a violent hit but it is also a risk, because the drop make Noivern meek; Dragon Pulse is also a STAB with good power, but not like Draco Meteor, so it works without drop but with a little bit power less. Second and third move depend if there is or not the rain: when in the rain, Hurricane is the right move, because it never misses, which allows Noivern spam its STAB with impunity; Air Slash instead has 30% chance to flinch and is a reputable STAB. Focus Blast has 120 base power and it hits violently Heatran and Tyranitar, anyway Flamethrower is better because is super effective against main Noivern's counter, like Ferrothorn or Jirachi. The last move can be Roost for recovering of damages of the Life Orb or can be U-turn to gain momentum when the opposing Pokemon switches out. Evs spread like the Choice Specs set, but the rest of Evs is in Def. 29 IVs in HP for less damage from Life orb.</p>


    [Checks and Counters]

    <p> Due to its relatively large movepool, countering this Pokemon is tough business. If it is Focus Blast: Mega-mawile and Jirachi aren't scary by its move set and can kill it with their fairy and ice moves. If the dragon-bat has Flamethrower: Heatran and Tyranitar resist at all its moves, but be careful at Draco Meteor for the second, and can answer with toxic-stall or rock moves. </p>

    -Make a mention of Blissey as a solid counter.

    <p>Many Pokémons are perfect like Revenge Killer against Noivern. Mamoswine OHKO Noivern without problem with Ice shard. Anyway, a lots of Pokémon with scarf can kill Noivern if it is specs or Life Orb format; Latios, Latias, Salamance can hit it with their Dragon moves, Keldeo with Hidden Power Ice, Terrakion with Stone edge.</p>

    -Mention powerful Scarf Pokemon such as Garchomp can outpace and OHKO.

    <p>Anyway, 97 Sp.Atk is low, so lots of fairy-type can counter Noivern with attention at Hurricane.</p>[/quote]

    -Give examples of those fariy-type Pokemon. Florges, Sylveon etc.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    If you have any queries feel free to raise it with any of us QC members.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  3. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    • Air Slash should be slashed on the Choice Specs set. It's nowhere near as strong as Hurricane, but if you're looking for consistent Flying-STAB it can't be beat.
    • I'm doubting the legitimacy of a Choice Scarf set on something as fast Noivern, especially with that unimpressive Special Attack.
    • You need to refrain from mentioning illegal Pokemon. Keldeo, Latios, Latias, etc they're all off limits as of now.
    • You should also work on your grammar, it could stand to be a lot better.
  4. Subject 18

    Subject 18 Peace.
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    Also, you shouldn't mention any of the pokemon that will be released via PokeBank. This includes: Jirachi, Latios, Latias, Keldeo, Heatran, Salamence, Terrakion. As you cant get them in game and wont be available until after December 25th.

    I'm backing Somalia on the EV spreads, Greninja is just common. You should run 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk.

    On the specs set I would make the nature Naive as you weaken U-Turn with a Timid nature
  5. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Boomburst should be somewhere mentioned on the LO set. It outdamages both Air Slash and Dragon Pulse and offers a strong and reliable hit against Fairy-types. It's also a solid move to use when you don't want to drop your SpA. Also, slash in both sets Frisk, which could be potentially very useful in a metagame where MEvos are expected to play a very big role. Finally, you could even mention that Boomburst pairs well with Frisk, as Boomburst ignores Subs, acting like a mini-Infiltrator.
  6. mafreel

    mafreel

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    Ok ok, thanks at all. I edited many things, descriptions, sets and Check&Counters.


    1* Ok, I have added along with flamethrower, since their use situation is similar.

    2* I see but with the Choice Scarf Noivern can be really useful against those pokémons with boost in speed. Choice Scarf Noivern is faster than timid max speed Venusaur under Sun for 1 point.

    3* Oh sorry, i forgot the PokèBank. I have deleted illegal Pokèmons, i have mentioned Latios and Keldeo in the Choice Scarf set description, just for a comparison.

    4* Eheh, sorry, I am not english. I will try to write better. Look if now is good.


    oh, how wonderful. Ok, i have inserted in Life Orb set description.
  7. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA The King
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    -Merge both choices set and slash the items, Specs before Scarf.

    Once that is done...

    QC APPROVED 1/3
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  8. mafreel

    mafreel

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    Done, and thanks somalia ;)
  9. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA The King
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    <p> Faster than Latios, Latias and Keldeo scarfed and with the ability to use powerful draco meteor, coupled with u-turn and acceptable special attack makes Noivern an good revengekiller. </p>

    Kindly also remove mentions of unreleased Pokemon (Latios, Latias and Keldeo). You can use Greninja as an example instead
  10. mafreel

    mafreel

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    But ok, i will use gengar and greninja for the example
  11. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay This Wouldn't Have Happened In Romney's Smogon
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    I'm not sure if others have tested this set out yet, nor am I aware of the overall viability of SubToxic anymore, but Noivern seems to be well suited for a SubToxic set. I've been playing around with one for some time, and it's doing very, very well. Here's the set:
    [​IMG]
    Noivern @ Leftovers
    Ability: Infiltrator
    EV's: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Nature: Timid
    Moveset:
    - Substitute
    - Toxic
    - Roost
    - Flamethrower / Dragon Pulse

    As you can see, Noivern appears to be very well suited to this kind of a role. Here's what it has going for it: first off, its base Speed of 122 is very high, out-speeding Greninja by exactly one point. This means that, with the exception of things like Talonflame and Jolteon, it's going to out-speed most things in the tier and be able to stall them out. Its typing is also pretty good for a SubToxic user. Dragon/Flying has a decent number of good resistances, including Fighting, Fire and Water. It is also immune to Spikes and TSpikes naturally. In conjunction with Roost, it can essentially neuter its Rock weakness and halve its 4x Ice weakness (and even gain an Electric resistance). 85 / 80 / 80 bulk is not anything to write home about, but it's at least decent for a Pokemon with its Speed and enough for it to take decent neutral and powerful resisted hits. It gets access to Flamethrower, which hits Steels like Skarmory and Scizor for a good deal of damage. If you're looking for STAB or if you can take care of Steels (ala Magnezone or etc.), then Dragon Pulse is a good option to hit things like Gengar and Tentacruel. Here's the wild card: Infiltrator. Thanks to the Gen VI buff, Infiltrator now gives Noivern the ability to hit Pokemon behind Substitute. This means that things can't block Toxic (or Flamethrower / Dragon Pulse for that matter) by hiding behind a Sub. That's a huge niche for a SubToxic user, and something that most other SubToxic threats in the past dreamed about doing. It's still open to Taunt threats, but at least it has a decent attack to hit things with (Skarm won't like Flamethrower if it tries to Taunt, for example).

    I'd like to hear some feedback on this set, as from what I've seen it certainly deserves some sort of mention as the third set in the analysis. It's definitely not unbeatable, as it suffers from a few things all SubToxic users suffer from (Taunt, Aromatherapy/Heal Bell etc), but it has ways around these AND has benefits no other SubToxic user has.
  12. mafreel

    mafreel

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    I think is not a good idea. There are subtoxicer more useful than noivern. It has 123 base speed, okay, but the other stats aren't great and with the weakness to stealth rock i don't think this set works good.
  13. Hypercut

    Hypercut

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    I suggest to change in this way Pros and Cons section:

  14. mafreel

    mafreel

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    Ok, i edited. Thanks br0!
  15. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    Salamence is available.
  16. mafreel

    mafreel

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  17. mafreel

    mafreel

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    I edited the descriptions, waiting for a second approved by Quality Controllers.
  18. dragonuser

    dragonuser The only thing I look up to is the sky
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    you mention in Cons that its unable to deal with Fairy-types at all, yet there is no mention of them in Checks and Counters. Add some mention of Pokemon such as Sylveon and Togekiss and....

    [​IMG]
  19. lurkingSombres

    lurkingSombres

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    I think it can be worth mentioning that infiltrator also bypasses dual screens?
  20. mafreel

    mafreel

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    Ops. I added few of them in Checks and Counters. Thanks ;)

    Ok, i edited.

    I changed the descriptions, waiting for a third approved by Quality Controllers.
  21. mafreel

    mafreel

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    Bump for QC.
  22. mafreel

    mafreel

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    i need last QC.
  23. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Put those in the same line, as they are the same pro.

    Just mention that it has plenty of common weaknesses; highlighting the Ice weaknesses alone doesn't make much sense.

    Slash Switcherro after U-turn on the first set.

    Add some teammates for both sets, namely Pokemon that can deal with Fairy-types and special walls such as Tyranitar, Chansey, and Blissey.

    Choice Scarf Salamence doesn't have a set anymore, so replace him with Choice Scarf Rotom-W.

    Life Orb Focus Blast always 2HKOes 252 HP Mega Mawile after SR, so just mention that it can check the Specs set by walling its STABs, but gets fucked up by Noivern's coverage moves. Also, it needs to be in its Mega Forme, otherwise even Specs Hurricane does a ton (57.89 - 68.09% to 252 HP Mawile).

    Please organize the Pokemon that check or counter Noivern by effectiveness, so go from best counters to shaky checks.

    Also, in addition to Mamswine, add strong priority users such as Azumarill, Scizor, and Talonfalme. Azumarill is a great check in general, because it only fears its Flying-type moves, and even then it can take a couple of them before going down, so give it a special mention.

    Add specially defensive Hippowdon as a great check, which can only be 2HKOed by Choice Specs Hurricane with SR up.
  24. Sharpteeth

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    I second the slash of Switcheroo on the first set. Infiltrator + Switcheroo lets it trick through subs, which is one of the main niche it gets. Put it next to U-Turn.
  25. mafreel

    mafreel

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    Is it ok now?

    I edited checks & counters and added switcheroo.
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