QC Round 3- Seven Deadly Sins

[Seven Deadly Sins]

BOOM

Initial thoughts:

Rotom-A
- HUGE overhaul, condensing the analysis as per my old plans.
- Sets featured: Standard Defensive, Choice, ResTalk, Charge Beam, Dual Screen, Rain Dance (Rotom-W)
- Since the set spreads differ between the various Rotom-A analyses, I'll be looking into which spread is the most effective for each set.

Scizor
- No changes needed, as I wrote the Scizor analysis and it is pretty much perfect.

Honchkrow
- ARGH HOW DO I TEST THIS THING IT'S LIKE TYRANITAR BUT CAN'T SWITCH INTO SHIT
- honestly i want this whole analysis to say "what the fuck are you doing using honchkrow seriously just use tyranitar" but i guess i need to figure out what honchkrow does "best" and then make that the only thing in the analysis
- if any of you have any ideas whatsoever feel free to post them

Crobat
- There's pretty much only one set that I'm really interested in:

Crobat (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Taunt
- Roost
- Super Fang
- Brave Bird / U-turn

Works kinda like stallbreaker Gliscor, except instead of relying on Toxic, it uses Super Fang to wear down opponents. Needs support from stuff that kills Rotom-A dead, but otherwise it looks pretty solid.

If anyone can think of a better spread, I'm all ears. Thinking about dropping the speed slightly, since it can't touch a lot of the faster stuff like Jolteon and friends, so seems unnecessary to run maximum Speed.

 

[Zystral]

tips for honchkrow - stay away from mixed. either run a CB with Superpower/Sucker Punch/Brave BIrd/Filler or use Nasty Plot.
Always max speed, no exceptions.

regarding Crobat, try this:
168 HP / 36 Atk / 88 Def / 216 Spe
Survives +2 Adamant Lucario ESpeed after Rocks
brave bird does at least 80% to Gengar and does at least 75% to Machamp

 

[twash]

I completely disagree with the Zystral, and much prefer mixed Honchkrow. A simple Sucker Punch/Superpower/Brave Bird/Heat Wave set puts pain on a lot of OU, although one should use it carefully because it is a pretty suicidal but damaging set if you predict correctly.

 

[Deis]

For Crobat I've used 168 HP / 48 Atk / 156 Def / 136 Spe Jolly
Outspeeds Timid Starmie, always survives +2 Adamant Luke's ESpeed after rocks and has a good chance of OHKOing after a CC defence drop as well as always OHKOing Machamp with Brave Bird.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I absolutely agree with the Rotom-A condensing, as it really is brutal to try to read right now. Also, you only need 144 Spe EVs to outspeed Choice Scarf Tyranitar with your Crobat if using a Speed-boosting nature. (148 if using HPFighting) You need 216 EVs to outspeed max Speed Weavile if that really interests you. (It will likely just be using Ice Shard on you anyway, so I don't think it's worth it) I say go with 144 Speed EVs and putting the rest into Attack if you use Brave Bird, otherwise Defense.

I think that testing the NPCrobat set would also be worth it, since it has some unique features that other special sweepers lack, such as being able to outspeed Scarf Tyranitar. I'd recommend the following set:

Crobat @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 108 HP / 252 SpA / 148 Spe
Nature: Timid
~ Nasty Plot
~ Sludge Bumb
~ Heat Wave
~ Hidden Power Fighting

No sense running 252 Speed EVs as HPFighting cuts your Speed by 1. Just run enough to outspeed Choice Scarf Tyranitar and you should be fine. The extra HP gives it some meaningful bulk that keeps it from being obliterated by things like Scizor's Bullet Punch after SR damage. (It avoids an OHKO)

Lastly, the biggest selling points for using Honchkrow is STAB Brave Bird and STAB Sucker Punch. Superpower and Heat Wave are good too, especially since you really need to be able to punch through Metagross and Skarmory (both of whom you just barely outspeed at max Speed investment).

 

[cim]

I absolutely agree with the Rotom-A condensing, as it really is brutal to try to read right now. Also, you only need 144 Spe EVs to outspeed Choice Scarf Tyranitar with your Crobat if using a Speed-boosting nature. (148 if using HPFighting) You need 216 EVs to outspeed max Speed Weavile if that really interests you. (It will likely just be using Ice Shard on you anyway, so I don't think it's worth it) I say go with 144 Speed EVs and putting the rest into Attack if you use Brave Bird, otherwise Defense.

Actually could be worth it since Crobat can take Ice Shard, and you U-turn out of other moves to do damage.

I would rather optimize defenses and attacks toward particular things than go "max hp and then attack i guess"

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Update!

I've enjoyed testing out stallbreaker Crobat, and I have to say that it's been working out fairly well for me. It's not quite as automatic as stallbreaker Gliscor, but once it comes in it's fairly gay to stall teams, and it doesn't have the whole "i am weak to common moves from bulky waters" thing going on. It can shut down Skarmory, annoy stuff with Taunt/Super Fang, and just generally wear down opponents incredibly effectively.

I'm about to test out Nasty Plot since I've always been kinda interested in it, but it's still an iffy proposition. Loses to Blissey, loses to Rotom-A (outsped by choice sets and can't even ohko the least defensive), loses to pretty much any scarfer, relies on a really crappy STAB, and while it might not die immediately to Scizor it's still not sweeping after it eats a bullet punch. I really can't see why I'd want to build a team around it when I can just use something like Charge Beam Jolteon which has more power, a better STAB, and is a touch easier to switch in.

ALSO ARGH HONCHKROW STOP EXISTING PLEASE

 

[Conflict]

Hey.

I used the "Stallbreaker"-Set of Crobat in the past and i think i have an better EV-Spread for this lil bat.

The Spread for Crobat using Sharp Beak:
Crobat@Shark Beak
EV's: 168 HP/112 Atk/78 Def/152 Spd
Nature: Jolly
- Brave Bird
- Taunt
- Roost
- Superfang

112 Atk-EV's + Sharp Beak ensure the OHKO on (Lead-)Machamp (without SR). So it has uses besides stopping stall teams. If you dont Machamp that much you can run less Atk, and the Items Lum Berry (good for an initial switch-in against Blissey) or Leftovers. Then the remaining EV's can be put somewhere.....
152 Speed with a Jolly Nature give Crobat enough Speed to outspeed Adamant Bulky Gyara after one DD and Scarftar.
With 168 HP-EV's Blissey cant 2hko Crobat with Ice Beam.
The remaining 78 EV's are put in the Defense to withstand better physical hits so Crobat can for example work as an "light check" against Lucario.

Thats what i used on a fairly offensive team....

 

[Alan]

The set on-site "Standard Bat" is a pretty good stallbreaker in and of itself, I don't see why its any worse than the set you have.

 

[RaikouLover]

Standard Bat really should just throw Super Fang in there over U-turn and just have the slash. I mean there was nothing wrong with it and it does nothing differently.

Also, SubRotom needs to be up there (works for all forms).

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I've tested both, and the defensive set does its job much more effectively than "standard bat". I'm also advocating the removal of LO (outclassed by AWESOME AERODACTYL YEAH) and Choice Band (yeah my only useful stab is brave bird oh i also am sr weak and can't recover because i'm using cb see how awesome this is?). As for Nasty Plot, I have my doubts about it, but Setsuna said he'd test it some for me, so I'm waiting on him.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

OK FINAL DECISIONS

Rotom-A

Once this round of QC is done, I'll start writing the "Rotom-A" analysis. It will have the following sets:

Standard Defensive
Choice
ResTalk
SubCharge
Dual Screen
Rain Dance (Rotom-W)

Scizor
- As I said, no changes necessary.

Honchkrow
- I'm only OKing one set for this poor bastard:

Honchkrow (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 136 HP/252 Atk/120 Spd
Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower
- Heat Wave

LO Mixed with Sucker Punch is the only way that Honch isn't just brutally outclassed by Tyranitar. Other options include Roost or Night Slash over Superpower or Heat Wave. 120 Spe outspeeds 4 Spe Suicune, but if anyone can think of a better benchmark I'm all ears. Apparently 212 Spe outdoes Defensive Rotom-A, so that'll get a mention alongside Night Slash (without Night Slash you just lose to WoW anyway).

Crobat
- I'm guaranteed to include this set:


Crobat (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Taunt
- Roost
- Super Fang
- Brave Bird / U-turn

Stall has a bitch of a time dealing with this set, and it at least has some use against offensive teams, especially when you can whittle down on stuff like Metagross coming in on Super Fang.

- Once Setsuna gets back to me about Nasty Plot Crobat, I'll post the result here. I wasn't much a fan of it, but he said he'd help me test it, so I'll give him the chance to respond here.

- Other sets are no-shows. CB depends on a recoil move with shitty coverage on a SR weak Pokemon, so that's out. LO is just a worse version of the INCREDIBLY BITCHIN Life Orb Aerodactyl, so that's out as well. Mixed simply doesn't hit hard enough without any boosts, so no dice there either.

 

[RaikouLover]

LO is just a worse version of the INCREDIBLY BITCHIN Life Orb Aerodactyl, so that's out as well.

Are you removing sets just for the hell of it? LO Crobat and LO Aerodactyl check different things defensively its not just "Oh Aerodactyl does this better." For starters, Brave Bird is 100% accurate. Secondly.. Breloom. Yeah, Crobat counters Breloom which is reason enough to use it over Aerodactyl if thats your cup of tea. I don't really see the justification for removing it just because Aerodactyl has a similar nature of set.

I mean, LO Crobat still revenge OHKOs Gengar, Infernape, Starmie.. so that doesn't make it "outclassed" since that is the thing that makes LO Aerodactyl so good.]

Also for Scizor.. I think two things need to be addressed.

Jolly nature for Swords Dancer for AC, along with Night Slash. Always outspeeding non-scarf Magnezone, and +2 Night Slash outspeeds and OHKO's all defensive varients of Rotom.. which is HUGE for lure purposes.

Also, there needs to be a separate Specially defensive Swords Dance Scizor with Roost. It plays differently (yes, it does.) Scizor has the defensive significance with Roost in switching into a few things and checking throughout the game, then can perform the sweep later. Plays much differently than "Swords Dance up and sweep til you die."

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Breloom countering is literally the only thing that Crobat does better than Aerodactyl, and in exchange it has much, much worse offensive coverage, reliance on a recoil attack which combines with SR weakness and LO damage to create an incredibly suicidal "sweeper" that has trouble dealing damage to a lot of different teams.

As for Scizor... I'll include the Jolly and Night Slash notes in Scizor's AC. I'd like to hear a little bit more about said SDef SD Scizor, since I'm not convinced of its effectiveness at this point, so if anyone wants to help test that for me or give me more details as to what it's capable of, that'd be helpful.

 

[Zystral]

SpDef Scizor is not worth it, since like CB you are much better off throwing that into HP which helps you survive physical attacks as well. Considering that SD Scizor needs to stay in more and doesn't have a U-turn it can spam endlessly means it's a lot more important to keep alive. You could be a real knob and try to split the EVs between HP and SpD or something... but Starmie's Hydro Pump, Rotom's Thunderbolt, Gengar's whatever is still going to do fucktons.

 

[RaikouLover]

Breloom countering is literally the only thing that Crobat does better than Aerodactyl, and in exchange it has much, much worse offensive coverage, reliance on a recoil attack which combines with SR weakness and LO damage to create an incredibly suicidal "sweeper" that has trouble dealing damage to a lot of different teams.

I thought it was already established that one pokemons viability has no bearing on the others. Especially in this instance, where they outspeed and revenge kill the same shit. There are pros to using Aerodactyl, but that set doesn't make LO Crobat any worse, as it becomes preference (some people would take Brave Bird's recoil over Stone Edges ass-tastic accuracy). There is just no reason to remove it unless it is completely unviable, which it is not.

You could be a real knob and try to split the EVs between HP and SpD or something... but Starmie's Hydro Pump, Rotom's Thunderbolt, Gengar's whatever is still going to do fucktons.

I thought SpDef Swords Dance Scizor was a freaking staple. It's not about setting up on shit that you obviously can't set up on.. you set up on defensive pokemon like Vaporeon which allow you to easily get to +6. Roost is already listed on the standard Swords Dancer but with those EV's its kind of a waste. Also, SpDef Scizor can switch in on a few things and Roost to make it an actual straight up counter.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Ok, how about this.

LO Crobat is not getting listed because:
- Aerodactyl exists, Jolteon exists, etc. Too many similar Pokemon that don't suck ass.
- Brave Bird is a shit STAB in OU. Flying sucks in general, but the recoil, Crobat's SR weakness, LO Recoil, and the fact that a whole lot of scary stuff in the metagame can just waltz in and not care about it is a big issue.
- Its coverage moves suck. Poison is quite possibly the only STAB worse than Flying, and an 80 BP attack coming off of unboosted 90 base Attack isn't hitting for shit. Meanwhile, Heat Wave is coming off of 70 Base SAtk, and while it may KO Scizor, Scizor is raping you with Bullet Punch because of SR, LO, and Brave Bird recoil, so it's pretty much a push there.
- Too many hard counters. It can't touch Heatran, can't touch Rotom-A, can't touch Tyranitar, has issues against Jirachi, has issues against Metagross, gets beaten by any vaguely bulky scarfer, etc. It's not sweeping until the end of the game, and at that point there are MANY more competent endgame sweepers that actually also have midgame use.

 

[RaikouLover]

Brave Bird is not a shit STAB in OU. Fuck, Brave Bird and Heat Wave hit everything except Heatran and Tyranitar neutral anyway. But that's beside the point. Life Orb (or at least Sharp Beak) should be mentioned with a set Brave Bird / Taunt / Roost / Watever because it flat out works. It's not a sweeper so much as it is a check to a few things.. makes a good revenge killer, and Crobat with Taunt and Roost will break stall much like Aerodactyl will. So LO or Standard Bat (one that actually uses some attack EVs to OHKO Machamp like it used to) needs to find some way to stay on the analysis. It's effective at what it does. Life Orb should be mentioned some where just for extra revenge killing power. Just for reference, Crobat outspeeds +1 Adamant Gyarados and does 72.5% minimum with a LO Brave Bird to standard Offensive Gyarados. Life Orb Starmie takes a minimum of 87.4% (wow!) from a LO Brave Bird. Gengar and Infernape are laughable. So just saying LO Crobat needs to be somewhere.

 

[Legacy Raider]

I'd like to throw in my 2 cents for SDef Scizor - it is definitely a viable set. It plays completely different from the 'offensive' SD, since it's aim is to get multiple SDs on offensively inept Pokemon like Vaporeon and then wreck things with massively boosted Bullet Punch. Scizor has the stats to play around with the EV spread and choose the things you can set up on. I don't have time atm to post damage calcs but I've used it to great effect on a lot of teams. It requires more specific team support than other Scizor sets but imo it is one of the only ones that can 'sweep'.

EDIT: I just wanted to say that all my experiences with SDef Scizor were from the Latias period, since that might make quite a difference.

 

[Sei]

I have been doing some calculations with the following EV spread and would like to share it.

Crobat @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 HP/32 Atk/28 Def/20 SpD/176 Spe (2 EVs leftover)
IVs: 31-all
~Brave Bird
~Taunt
~Super Fang
~Roost

Outrun Jolly Dugtrio and Timid Sceptile, but, of course, the speed EV can be lowered and put into Def or SpD.
Prevent OHKO from +2 Adamant Lucario’s Extreme Speed after taking SR & Leftovers numbers

Edit: Taken request from RaikouLover and allocated 32 Atk EV to OHKO Lucario after SR, LO recoil, and -1 Def drop.

 

[RaikouLover]

Put them 52 EVs in attack at least... Surviving Extremespeed means nothing if ur not doin all that much back.

 

[Towelie]

Brave Bird is not a shit STAB in OU. Fuck, Brave Bird and Heat Wave hit everything except Heatran and Tyranitar neutral anyway. But that's beside the point. Life Orb (or at least Sharp Beak) should be mentioned with a set Brave Bird / Taunt / Roost / Watever because it flat out works. It's not a sweeper so much as it is a check to a few things.. makes a good revenge killer, and Crobat with Taunt and Roost will break stall much like Aerodactyl will. So LO or Standard Bat (one that actually uses some attack EVs to OHKO Machamp like it used to) needs to find some way to stay on the analysis. It's effective at what it does. Life Orb should be mentioned some where just for extra revenge killing power. Just for reference, Crobat outspeeds +1 Adamant Gyarados and does 72.5% minimum with a LO Brave Bird to standard Offensive Gyarados. Life Orb Starmie takes a minimum of 87.4% (wow!) from a LO Brave Bird. Gengar and Infernape are laughable. So just saying LO Crobat needs to be somewhere.

Life Orb really doesn't need it's own set, because, like SDS said, it really is outclassed by Aerodactyl. SDS has made all the relevant points; You say it outspeeds, and does 72.4 minimum to Gyarados... But you have Life Orb as well as Brave Bird recoil. Ok you can check Adamant Gyara, but you're basically killing yourself in the process. Same as for Starmie, it's basically suicide. Aerodactyl does everything Crobat does (bar check breloom) but does it a lot better.

 

[Sign]

Mr. Sins:
I believe you underestimate Honchkrow's potential.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76458
Now, I'm no Pokemon genius or anything, but I've thoroughly enjoyed using this set (approximately, I made a few edits here). Yes, his speed isn't great, and Stealth Rock is terrible to swap into. If, however, you don't swap him in mid-battle and EV for speed, Honchkrow has a decent chance at surviving. As long as Honchkrow survives, with this set, Honchkrow can fairly effectively dismantle anything that doesn't resist him. I'm sure he can be a decent sweeper, but I love putting in Honchkrow and watching opponents squirm as they lose Pokemon after Pokemon to critical hits.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I think I've estimated Honch's potential perfectly.

CH-based sets are terrible anyway because they're unreliable. Besides, a CH Night Slash does LESS damage than a LO Brave Bird, which is a huge turnoff for me.

 

[KnightoftheWind]

Mr. Sins:
I believe you underestimate Honchkrow's potential.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76458
Now, I'm no Pokemon genius or anything, but I've thoroughly enjoyed using this set (approximately, I made a few edits here). Yes, his speed isn't great, and Stealth Rock is terrible to swap into. If, however, you don't swap him in mid-battle and EV for speed, Honchkrow has a decent chance at surviving. As long as Honchkrow survives, with this set, Honchkrow can fairly effectively dismantle anything that doesn't resist him. I'm sure he can be a decent sweeper, but I love putting in Honchkrow and watching opponents squirm as they lose Pokemon after Pokemon to critical hits.

So what you're suggesting is that Honchkrow should get a bad set with no Sucker Punch, no Brave Bird and Steel Wing as the primary option over Superpower which causes Honchkrow to be walled by every Steel-type ever just because you get insanely lucky? Your other reasonings don't make sense either. Not switching in Honchkrow mid-battle means not switching him in at all and Honchkrow will still be outsped by a lot of stuff regardless of how many Speed EVs it has. The fact that you lack Sucker Punch doesn't help this either. So in conclusion, I think your set is terrible.