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Quagsire (Analysis) [QC 0/2]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Moo, Feb 19, 2011.

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  1. Moo

    Moo Professor
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    QC: 0/2 (,) GP: 0/2 (,)
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Quagsire

    --------

    [Overview]

    <p>Quagsire has a nice niche in Ubers because of its ability to wall one of the Uber tier's biggest threats: Kyogre. Its Water and Electric immunities render Kyogre's most powerful attacks useless. Quagsire will force choiced Kyogres out immediately and can beat Substitute and Calm Mind variants with Encore. Quagsire makes a great wall thanks to its decent bulk access to Recover. On top of that, Quagsire sports a varied support movepool, ranging from Yawn and Encore to Toxic.</p>

    <p>This generation has given Quagsire the Unaware ability, which lets it wall setup sweepers. However if Quagsire runs Unaware, it loses the ability to wall Kyogre because it is not immune to its powerful Water attacks. Quagsire has some new competition in this generation in the form of Gastrodon because the Storm Drain ability makes it immune to water attacks in this generation. It is also immune to Electric attacks, and has access to Recover like Quagsire. Gastrodon is bulkier than Quagsire, supposedly outclassing it. However, Gastrodon does not have access to Encore or the option to run an Unaware set, giving Quagsire the upper hand in certain situations.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Ubers Support
    move 1: Toxic / Boil Over
    move 2: Yawn
    move 3: Encore
    move 4: Recover
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Water Absorb
    nature: Careful
    evs:
    252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Quagsire's great typing, bulk, and Water Absorb make it a great and unique support Pokemon in Ubers. Quagsire makes a great counter to Kyogre because it is immune to Water and Electric-type attacks. Choiced Kyogres will be forced out immediately, and you can use Encore to lock Calm Mind variants trying to set up. Aside from Encore, Quagsire can provide additional support in the form of Toxic and Yawn, 2 great status moves. Yawn can put an opposing Pokemon to sleep, and causes a lot of switches when used in succssion, which can help rack up Entry Hazard damage. Toxic can help drain Bulky Pokemon's health away such as Groudon, and Kyogre, and can be used more effectively when combined with Encore and Recover. Because the EVs are invested in HP and Special Defense, Quagsire has trouble taking hits from physical attackers. Quagsire is also severly hindered by Toxic. The damage inflicted from poison will gradually increase, forcing Quagsire to use Recover more often and making it vulnerable to powerful attacks.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p> The EVs given allow Quagsire to take special attacks as best as possible. 252 in HP ensure maximum bulk whereas 252 in Special Defense lets Quagsire take attacks from special attackers such as Ice Beam from Calm Mind or Choice Specs Kyogre, Spacial Rend from Palkia and Dragon Pulse from Dialga. Entry Hazards are greatly appreciated because Quagsire will cause many switches thanks to Encore and Yawn. Boil Over can be used over Toxic. With it, Quagsire has the chance to burn the opponent, and isn't completely shut down by Taunt. Forretress and Skarmory make excellent teammates because they both resist Grass-type attacks x4, can lay down Entry Hazards which Quagsire takes advantage of, and take powerful physical hits. Forretress can spin away opposing entry Hazards which is also appreciated. Deoxys-S is another good partner because it is the fastest Spiker / Stealth Rocker in the game, and can guarantee at least one layer of Entry Hazards. Deoxys-S is a good partner, because it's the fastest Spiker / Stealth Rocker in the game.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Boil Over can be used because it allows you to threaten physical attackers with a burn while still walling attackers on the special side. A Curse set is a viable option because Quagsire has opportunities to set up against Pokemon like Kyogre locked into an immune move. Recover can be used with Curse, allowing Quagsire to take on the role of a tank. Stockpile allows Quagsire to increase both defenses, taking hits from both sides. But it is weak to critical hits and Toxic. Amnesia allows Quagsire to double its Special Defense and sponge hits from special sweepers thanks to Recover.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Taunt shuts Quagsire down because it can't make use of its support movepool, and will resort to struggling on the support set. Pokemon that are immune to status moves can stop Quagisre too. Rest talkers are good examples of this. Also, Pokemon with Lum Berries can catch Quagsire by surprise. Mew can heal off it's status with a Lum Berry and reflect it back onto Quagsire thanks to synchronize. Espeon and Xatu can bounce back any status thanks to Magic Mirror, and bounce back any Entry Hazards from Pokemon that you pair with Quagsire Any grass attack from a powerful attacker will stop quagsire in its tracks. Latios, Latias, and Skymin can make short work of Quagsire with Grass knot and Seed flare respectively. Nattorei can set up Entry Hazards against Quagsire, while threatening to OHKO with a Super-Effective Power Whip.</p>

    [Dream World]

    <p>Quagsire has recieved Unaware as its Dream World ability. With Unaware, Quagsire gains the ability to check Set-up sweepers, notably Arceus. Losing Water Absorb is a disadvantage in some ways, but the two abilities change Quagsire completely.</p>
  2. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Quagsire is mostly outclassed by Gastrodon. You need to mention a lot that Quagsire gets Encore while Gastrodon doesn't, which seems to be the only advantage it has over Gastrodon. Water Absorb is a nice advantage over Storm Drain for the healing. Quagsire's overall bulk is less than Gastrodon who has much higher HP.
  3. Moo

    Moo Professor
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    Yes that's true. Quaggy also has better physical defense and Unaware.
  4. calze6

    calze6

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    Actually, I believe that the main advantage is only encore which is why quaggy, imo is better than gastro. Encore beats CM sets while gastro can't.
  5. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Unaware would take away Quagsire's biggest card to play in Ubers, which is Water Absorb.
  6. Moo

    Moo Professor
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    Not necessarily. Unaware Quagsire and Water Absorb Quagsire are very different. While he is losing the ability to wall Kyogre, he can wall a different group of pokes: setup sweepers.
  7. jrp

    jrp Waves grow frigid as darkness freezes light
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    however, there are other Pokemon more suited for walling set up sweepers though. I mean, Quagsire can not take a Specs water move from Kyogre any more, and tbh, you said it yourself:
    Quagsire has a nice niche in Ubers because of its ability to wall one of the Uber tier's biggest threats: Kyogre. Its Water and Electric immunities render Kyogre's most powerful attacks useless.

    If you're giving up your way to wall Kyogre, there's really no point in using Quagsire
  8. Moo

    Moo Professor
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    No, you misunderstand.
    Quaggy with Water Absorb Walls Kyogre all day.
    Unaware Quagsire walls a whole new set of pokes: Setup Sweepers. You can't use Unaware variants like the Water absorb ones because they wall different things.
  9. iDunno

    iDunno

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    Since when does anything in Ubers need to boost before OHKOing Quagsire? :/
  10. calze6

    calze6

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    Please name all the setup sweepers that quaggy stops.
  11. Moo

    Moo Professor
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    SD Arceus, DD / SD Rayquaza, SD / RP Groudon.
    Can't think of many more off the top of my head, but pretty much anything that is physical and sets up can be stopped by unaware quagsire.
  12. jrp

    jrp Waves grow frigid as darkness freezes light
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    tbh, quagsire cannot stop set up sweepers.
    A life orb mewtwo does 51.8% - 61.2% to max HP/Special Def Calm Quagsire with psychic. An unboosted Kyogre does 61.4% - 72.6% to unaware Quagsire with surf (this is on the calm mind set)
    tbh, I'm not seeing it having a use in ubers with unaware
  13. jrp

    jrp Waves grow frigid as darkness freezes light
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    also, rock polish groudon does 52.5% - 61.9% to bold max def/hp quagsire. Good luck with that
  14. Moo

    Moo Professor
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    Alright after some calcs, testing etc, I've decided not to do an unaware set. Ubers Pokes are too powerful for Quagsire to check, even without setting up.
  15. Koinzell

    Koinzell

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    Hey, I've been lurking here for a while, time for a first post because I really think Unaware Quagsire has potential.
    I use a Curse set, with max physical defence and Impish.

    If Water Absorb Quagsire gets a set because he can check choice Kyogre, why wouldn't Unaware Quagsire deserve a set when he is (the only ?) full stop to Extreme Killer.
    With Curse, Quagsire can check the popular Rock Polish Groudon, Curse also gives you a way to defeat Rest-Talk Dialga and Recover Steel-Arceus instead of just getting PP stalled.

    Some Calcs to prove my point :

    Things you wall :
    Silk Scarf Extreme Speed from Adamant Normal Arceus 33% - 39.1%
    Earthquake from Adamant Ground Arceus 41.4% - 49%
    Outrage from defensive Bulk Up Dialga 30.7% - 36.5%
    LO Dragon Claw from Adamant Raiquaza 42.1% - 49.7%

    Things you wall, assuming you switch into a non damaging move and have Curse :
    LO Earthquake from Adamant Groudon 52.5% - 61.9%
    LO Close Combat from Adamant Lucario 50.5% - 59.6%
    LO Outrage from Jolly Garchomp 51.8% - 61.2%

    Calm Mind sweepers you check :
    Defensive Lugia, Arceus with NVE Judgement and without Grass Knot (Steel/Fire/Electric/Rock)

    I'm quite new to Ubers, but what exactly does Water Absorb Quagsire wall outside of choice Water and Thunder ?
    He still takes a ton from Specs Ice Beam, and it's always risky to Recover stall a move with potential Freeze.
    Encore is a shaky answer for not choice Kyogre, if you switch on Calm Mind what you will Encore is the +1 Ice Beam, which will force Quagsire out eventualy.
  16. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    You know I completely agree with you. Unaware Quagsire is probably more useful than the Water Absorb Variant. Really, what the hell does Water AAbsorb Quagsire wall other than Kyogre ?? Comparitively Unaware Quagsire is much better. It is one of the most reliable checks to SD Extremekiller Arceus Arceus. I admit I was a bit unsure of the sets effectiveness but after using it and playtesting I have no doubt , this is an excellent counter to SD Arceus. SD Arceus is probably the next most popular Uber pokemon after Kyogre . The thing most peole are "unaware"(lols at his pun) that Qaugsire even gets this ability. Quagsire can just Toxic Arceus and just Recover stall it out.
    However if Arceus has Refresh or Qaugsire is not carrying Toxic it complicates matters.Though it can wall Arceus,it cannot do anythig to it. However on Smogons gen5 normal extreme killer arceus analysis Refresh isnt even on the main set.

    However you should keep in mind that the ability to wall SD EXtremekiller Arceus comes at a price. Now Quagsire is incredibily weak on the special side and stand the risk of being OHKO'd by Kyogre with a full HP water Spout. But yeah if Water Absorb Qaugsire desrve an analysis then the Unaware one should get one too.
  17. Moo

    Moo Professor
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    Arceus: Gets walled by defensive Quag.
    Arceus Ground: You get 2hko'd after Stealth Rock which isn't uncommon in Ubers.
    Dialga: Quag can't touch Dialga, but neither can Dialga.
    Ray: Calc is wrong: 57.9% - 68% 2hko'd :|

    You can't switch in and have Curse......
    And with most of those, the only thing you can do is recover till you get critted or they get max damage...

    Also, you cannot check Special sweepers when all your EVs are invested in defence.


    SD Extremekiller Arceus is just one type of Arceus. What if you bring Quagsire in on Arceus Expecting SD and it is a Calm Mind variant? Now you have to switch out again and they have 2 CMs up.
  18. jrp

    jrp Waves grow frigid as darkness freezes light
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    Seeing as a vast majority of ubers are special attackers (mewtwo, darkrai, palkia, dialga, [debatably, seeing as it gets bulk up] skymin, kyogre, ect, a physical walling set isn't too good of an idea. water absorb is quagsire's main use. Leave physical walling to giratina and lugia, who can actually take multiple hits
  19. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    Going by your logic, then it would be nigh impossible to counter Arceus since almost every Arceus type has 2 sets and the counters of those 2 sets are hardly ever the same.
  20. Moo

    Moo Professor
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    Yeah, it's pretty difficult to as it has no hard counters.

    Go ahead and use Unaware Quagsire if you want, I just don't think it deserves a set on site.
  21. Koinzell

    Koinzell

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    You misunderstood me, in the Curse Calcs you use Curse after the first hit, then Recover stall.
    For instance you switch while Groudon uses Rock Polish,
    You take a LO Earthquake and Curse up
    Next turn the Earthquake doesn't finish you up, while you Recover.
    Now Groudon relies on a crit to defeat you, while taking LO recoil at every attempt.

    Yeah, if you switch into Earthquake you will get 2HKOd, but as long as Groudon doesn't get a Rock Polish he won't sweep. Keep in mind that the main niche of Unaware Quagsire is to stop SD Arceus, everything else is just bonus.

    Ground Arceus never 2HKOs, outside of Spikes (leftovers cancel SR), and again this is in the worst case scenario where you don't switch into Sword Dance.

    Dialga can't touch Quagsire, Quagsire defeats Dialga with Earthquake. Remember that Unaware also ignores Bulk Up defence boosts.

    For the Rai calc, I was talking about SD Adamant Raiquaza, who often uses Dragon Claw or Waterfall and can't get past Quagsire with that. I used Smogon Damage Calculator for the calculations.
    DD Raiquaza will beat Quagsire with Jolly LO Outrage,

    Even with a EV invested in physical defence, Quagsire is not 2HKOd by the few Calm Minders I listed, although I admit that they are not very common (except Calm Mind Steel-Ceus maybe).

    And may I add that nothing outclasses Unaware Quagsire in that specific niche, while Water Absorb Quagsire competes with Gastrodon, and really, 3 turn Encore is underwhelming.
  22. jrp

    jrp Waves grow frigid as darkness freezes light
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    Unaware also ignores draco meteor special attack drops
  23. Koinzell

    Koinzell

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    Yeah, Mix Bulk Up Dialga can lure Quagsire in and OHKO with Draco Meteor.
    But you don't switch blindly into Dialga, since any special set will destroy you.
    First. It's best to switch to your answer for special Dialga, and bring Quagsire if it happens to be the Rest-Talk Bulk Up.
  24. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    I'm quite sure it doesn't.

    EDIT: Wait, never mind, I got confused there. Ignore this. :/
  25. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    Yes it does unfortunately,. I figured it the hard way on PO :(
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