Quality Control Documentation

I got a couple things I want to point out, which brings me to a rather unhappy point for someone....:D

Origionally posted by fat Seven Deadly Sins
Removing two sets flat out: Mixed DD and Counter DD. Talked with Phil, pure gimmicks plain and simple.
I am actually envoking the omegajerk clause and requesting that you test the DD Mix set for TTar, since I have used it many a time and have never had a problem. Thing is, the set is most likely in need of an update. We just may have to look into that SDS. I understand that you covered the task about a month ago but I want it actually looked into, since you made it clear that you did not. If you don't beleive me, I have a log where I was 6-1 and came back to sweep RB Golbat for a win. If you want, I can help out with this and resupply the analysis if needed. I got more things to add, but I'll edit them since i'm out of time.
 
Ah. Well, you did NOT do a good job vocalizing more then your opinion on it. I'd like to know some of your exploits with it via pm. I'll leave you to your opinion then, since you are the guy in charge of it.

Pointing out some things, Toxic stall flygon is solid, SDS shouldn't complain that he has to test a perfectly awesome set in Rain Dance Kingdra, Zen Headbutt is superior for the mentioned reasonson Metagross, Torment Tran might actually diserve its place above the LO set, and the Drugodactyl set is actually pretty decent. I ran it with, you guessed it, the DD mix TTar and was highly successful. Just in case any of these things are still under examination, or have yet to be tested, they should be looked at optomistically.

Lastly, I have two sets I would like to get going up on the site. I finally got online, so I can study the game intensely for them. This is actually my first post from home! ^_^

The sets are gimmicky, which is the only problem. This [I hope] won't be an issue because the sets were designed to work first, and use unorthodox moves second. The first set can be found in my old RMT, which is a scary face Heatran. The other is a Arcanine that stalls on the Physical side, and even in OU. I will supply all the nessicary crap for them, provided you guys help me stay on track with them. IDK what is what anymore, so a refresher is more then in order.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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You Bloo, if you're still testing Metagross, could you do me a favor and spin Zen Headbutt on AgiliGross? It helped me in the mini-tournament with downing Rotom-A, so thought it might be something to look at if you can. I really think it should be a main option on the set, but others may beg to differ (hitting Rotom-A neutral alone is significant enough for it IMO).
 
Agiligross - Slash Zen Headbutt over ThunderPunch, it is viable in the sense that it hits Rotom-a and Swampert pretty hard, and nearly kills Gyarados with SR up. Change the Agiligross spread for 252 Atk 56 def 200 Spe, which outspeeds Scarf Rotom-a and neutral base 100 pokemon. outspeeding Scarf Rotom-a allows Metagross to kill off Rotom-a with SR + Meteor Mash on the switch in, and a Zen Headbutt to finish it off. I'd personally take off Explosion and Ice Punch and simply mention it in the description while slashing ZH with Tpunch, as I find ZH much more common than the other two options, and preventing slashitis is pretty good.
 
ok SO little later on this than I intended to be, blah blah end of semester no one really wants to hear my excuses, I'll add to this later, my round 2 uu shit part 1


Clefable -

There are a huge amount of sets in this analysis, yet somehow we don't have a CM set at all in spite of it being debatably the best set it can run. I was playing with boltbeam/cm/softboiled bold max hp 212 def remainder spa or something(which I believe is stolen from aldaron), but something really needs to get on site as quickly as possible.

The wallbreaking set is a staple and works great, not much to say there.

I'm a little less convinced by the other stuff it can do. We have a lot of gimmicky stuff on-site right now.

The Belly Drum set has terrible coverage, is ridiculously slow, and really only has a shot at working against new players or in situations where the game is basically already won anyway. I'm not sure this needs to stay at all, but at the very least it should be moved down to the last set on the analysis.

We have a Toxic + Encore set, an Encore set, and a Wish stall set that potentially abuses Toxic. While Clefable can do any of them servicably, I'm not sure we really need them all listed on-site as separate sets - it's cluttered and there's a lot of redundancy between them.

Specifically, here are two of those sets, "Toxic + Encore" and Toxic Stall:
~ Wish
~ Protect / Cosmic Power
~ Seismic Toss
~ Toxic / Heal Bell

~ Toxic
~ Encore
~ Softboiled
~ Seismic Toss

These seem similar enough that they could be the same set to me (especially since neither of them are very good, and really only worth keeping for its role on weather stall teams). I think we'd be better off just changing it to something like

~Wish/Softboiled
~Toxic
~Seismic Toss
~Protect/Encore/Cosmic Power

with Heal Bell mentioned or in other options. The set labeled Encore right now is only a move or two different from the above:

~ Encore
~ Softboiled / Wish
~ Seismic Toss
~ Thunder Wave / Heal Bell

But the heavier use of Encore probably justifies this being set on its own. I'm really not happy with that solution regardless, though - these are some hugely redundant sets.

I wasn't super impressed in my admittedly limited use of the burn orb trick set, either. There are so many better things you can do with Clefable than give it a one time use WoW in exchange for an item and a moveslot. I'd remove it, as well.

Dugtrio

There aren't many changes I'd make here. The main difference I'd like to see is organization - put LO off on it's own and the two Choice items together. The standard with LO is definitely EQ/SE/Sub/Sucker Punch, which isn't as obvious now as it could be. The Choice Sets being off on their own also makes it easier to add Beat Up cleanly to them, which is the one big change I'd like to see made - it's a good option for Choice Dugtrio in particular (since choiced Sucker Punch is pretty stupid anyway) to carry since it allows Dugtrio to deal with Chansey effectively, which EQ doesn't do enough damage to pull off in some cases. It's worth mentioning on the LO set as an option as well, but I think SubSP is better.

I was originally going to suggest we remove Scarf (or at least relegate it to other options) completely but I was pleasantly surprised by how decent it is when using it. It's definitely a distant third best item to LO and CB and should be presented as such(it gets an awful lot of attention right now), but revenging other Dugtrio and some of the faster threats(it was funny beating last Pokemon subzam with it once) makes it worth at least considering. The loss in power hurts big time, though.

Feligatr

3 of the 4 sets here are great, but the CB set seems very throwaway. "Oh, it's a physical Pokemon, let's make a choice set!" I hated every moment I spent testing it. It doesn't do enough damage to seriously threaten the three~ Pokemon most teams have that shut it down cold, and to make things even more fun it doesn't do all that much damage to the small portion of the game that doesn't laugh at it, AND it is slow as all hell so it is easy to revenge even if it manages to kill something. Every time I had to send it out I desperately wished it was a SD or DD set or Azumarill, who completely outclasses this set since they're both too slow for it to be helpful. It's just terrible. Gotta get rid of it.
 
I think that the SD Empoleon set shouldn't be there personally. (Am I allowed to post here? :x)

It can't even OHKO Hasty Gengar with a +2 Aqua Jet after Stealth Rock damage.

70.5% - 83.1% +2 Aqua Jet v. Hasty Gar

and it only does a max of ~77% max to the other sets.

It doesn't really kill anything else with Aqua Jet so I feel like its viability is gone more or less.

For shits and giggles: 52.9% - 62.9% +2 Aqua Jet v. Swords Dance Weavile.

So that kinda re-itterates its badness.

(Again, sorry if I'm not allowed to post here)

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/ninjask

Ninjask has the option for Quick Attack under the Ubers Lead set (first one, not sash), but Ninjask cannot learn Quick Attack... sooooooooo.
 
i think jumpluff pointed this out in #stark today but the old anti lead machamp on analysis is sorta weak imo
I agree. I've been using a very good alternative set for awhile now and its been pretty amazing. I know a lot of other people have been using it too. Would anybody object to a set with Dynamic Punch / Payback / Bullet Punch / Stone Edge or Ice Punch replacing the current set? With enough EVs to survive Azelf's Psychic, it becomes a very good anti-lead.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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Tank Metagross - Never seen this set in play before, and despite what the analysis says I'd much rather use Skarmory for the spikes and phazing aspect, rather than this.
I've actually tested this one a fair amount, and found it to be a pretty good set. I use it as a mid/late game SRer and a check to many of the game's biggest threats, nothing else can boast it's extremely impressive overall defenses, ability to blow up with enough power to KO almost everything in OU, while providing enough of a threat with EQ/MM to prevent it being "setup bait unless you explode" (other than against Skarm/Bronzong), and Stealth Rock.

27.7% - 32.7% from offensive Latias Surf
41.5% - 48.9% from +1 offensive Latias Surf
58.8% - 69.8% ScarfTran Earth Power
92.9% - 110.4% ScarfTran Flamethrower (you don't want to stay in on this, but if a super effective STAB attack off 130 base SpA hitting it's weaker defense has a fair chance to not OHKO, that's saying something)
75.3% - 89% from LO +1 offensive Gyarados Earthquake
80.4% - 95.6% from LO offensive Gyarados Earthquake+Waterfall
71.4% - 84.6% from LO +1 offensive Salamence Earthquake
74.7% - 88.5% from LO offensive Salamence Fire Blast
13.2% - 15.7% CBScizor Bullet Punch
31.3% - 36.8% CBScizor U-turn
22.8% - 26.9% CBtar Stone Edge (what else is going to take Stone Edges like that?)
40.7% - 48.4% DDtar EQ
61% - 72% +1 DDtar EQ
79.1% - 93.4% +1 LO DDtar EQ

As you can see, even the very strongest boosted super effective attacks struggle to KO this set. This gives you time to set up SR on a switch, then beat down your foe or explode. Reliably getting SR up then KOing one foe puts you at a clear advantage, and generally that's what it does (unless you switch in as a huge threat sets up, then you just KO the huge threat which is still pretty nice). Admittedly, they can switch on the explosion. But very little can survive one, and the few that can take huge damage (bar Rotom-A/other ghosts) and since you forced their threat out and get a Pokemon of your choice in against one of their key walls, it's often not a huge problem.

Basically, something can lategame SR better than it. Something can suicidally check the top setup threats better than it. Something can be a bulky offensive wallbreaker better than it. But I don't think anything can provide all of these things at once anywhere like as well.

Can't vouch for the effectiveness of Light Screen, but this set plays very differently from Skarm. Skarm is far more easily walled than tank gross thanks to Steel/Ground's decent coverage and the difference in attack (212 Vs 306), and lacks Explosion which is one of the main attractions to me. Skarm wants to stick around and wall the big threats while setting up spikes, Metagross wants to switch in, get SR up, then either check things with it's awesome defenses and attacks, or provide a last line of defence against almost anything by surviving what they throw at it and blowing up.

Edit: Also, look at the resistances. Skarm is immune to ground which is awesome, but lacks the Rock/Ice resist and has that ever annoying electric weakness. Which type is better depends on what you're facing.
 
Clefable -



Specifically, here are two of those sets, "Toxic + Encore" and Toxic Stall:
~ Wish
~ Protect / Cosmic Power
~ Seismic Toss
~ Toxic / Heal Bell

~ Toxic
~ Encore
~ Softboiled
~ Seismic Toss

These seem similar enough that they could be the same set to me (especially since neither of them are very good, and really only worth keeping for its role on weather stall teams). I think we'd be better off just changing it to something like

~Wish/Softboiled
~Toxic
~Seismic Toss
~Protect/Encore/Cosmic Power
Is Cosmic Power really necessary? I don't see how it even compares to Protect or Encore. Protect is needed for Wish, and Encore is really useful for checking Pokemon like SubCM Raikou.
 
Wasn't sure what tank 'gross was, so I checked the analysis. I've never played with it before, but you mentioned midgame SRer, and I think ShucaGross does a fantastic job of that. A few other players and I (panamaxis, Earthworm, AM) have used it and can speak for it. It's a good Gliscor lure, good SRer, and EQ sweeper check in general. I think shuca can be at least slashed in... I've never seen Light Screen on that kind of set though lol. I didn't even know it learned LScreen.
 

franky

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I agree. I've been using a very good alternative set for awhile now and its been pretty amazing. I know a lot of other people have been using it too. Would anybody object to a set with Dynamic Punch / Payback / Bullet Punch / Stone Edge or Ice Punch replacing the current set? With enough EVs to survive Azelf's Psychic, it becomes a very good anti-lead.
I have already written an update to this a month ago: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69437. It hasn't been touched in a while but your opinion is welcomed
 
Is Cosmic Power really necessary? I don't see how it even compares to Protect or Encore. Protect is needed for Wish, and Encore is really useful for checking Pokemon like SubCM Raikou.
Probably not. I was just thinking we should keep it on a set somewhere since it's kinda unique, but I guess other options or whatever is fine... not exactly a stellar strategy anyway.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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Wasn't sure what tank 'gross was, so I checked the analysis. I've never played with it before, but you mentioned midgame SRer, and I think ShucaGross does a fantastic job of that. A few other players and I (panamaxis, Earthworm, AM) have used it and can speak for it. It's a good Gliscor lure, good SRer, and EQ sweeper check in general. I think shuca can be at least slashed in... I've never seen Light Screen on that kind of set though lol. I didn't even know it learned LScreen.
Not tested yet, but from the number of times it's been a Ground attack that's beaten Metagross I would imagine that Shuca would be a great option on tank gross, probably the first slash. SR could be moved to the first slash too, if that's what most people are using.
 

remlabmez

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Here is my final evaluation for this set of testing.

Infernape

  • I had earlier said that I feel all the sets are fine, and I have tested them all before in the current metagame, I said something about mixing in nasty plot ape with mixape, but with SOT's revamp of it it's going to stay. Might want to move physically based nape over special because physical seems currently better imo.
Hippowdon

  • Cursing hippo needs an option of a careful nature over impish. Testing with careful led to better results, with a base 118 defense I feel the necessity of a +def nature especially with it using curse.
  • For the CB Hippo, I would like to slash in LO and use a variant of hippo that rey uses (dont know the EVs of it atm), it can also be stated that Hippo can function as an anti-lead.
Heracross

  • Remove reversal
  • Remove bulk up without sleep talk, but include options without it
  • Remove sleep talk set
  • I would vote to remove the sub salac set, but the QC team might have to decide this, it had underwhelming results when I tested it, with TTars great presence in OU and priority being on almost every team.
  • Choiced sets need mentions of sleep talk as a viable option
Smeargle

  • Anti-lead smeargle should include at least stealth rock, I would prefer a movset of trick / SR / spore / filler moves including endeavor, destiny bond, encore, uturn, lunar dance.
  • Remove ubers belly pass, it has the same EVs as the other bellydrum pass option.
 

Plus

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@ eric

Eric, I've already tested the set, I'm not sure if you are aware of this as you quoted my pre testing notes, so I'll restate what I've found here. The screen version of Tank Metagross was a bit underwhelming. With rocks up it was better, however it functions very similarly to the lead set. I have no qualms with using the lead set in a non lead spot, you could even potentially change the lead metagross set to simply "support metagross" if you choose to do so. Basically with lead and tank is that i'm seeing pretty similar spreads and pretty similar movesets but with mentions of different pokemon. They generally play the same whether you use Tank metagross in a lead slot or lead metagross in the tank slot because the difference is really miniscule apart from the items you use and whether you are using screens or not. I'm glad you went out of your way to pull out all those calcs for me and vouch support for it, I just think that there's not enough of a difference to differentiate tank and lead because nobody uses screens and at that point it's just a matter of item and where you place it on your team.

@ pluff

Yeah I agree here, I like Shuca gross but as I said earlier I'm probably just advocating that it be slashed with the other items in the lead metagross slot, which as i've emphasized above can be used outside of a lead during midgame.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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Jirachi:
  • General Note: All sets not running a speed-lowering Hidden Power should be running Max Spe instead of 80 HP, because beating Mence/Flygon 50% of the time is definitely better than 0%.
  • Set Order: Scarf -> Lead -> SubCM -> WishCM -> Superachi -> Mixed -> Support -> Screens
  • Set Names: Physical Choice -> Choice Scarf, Physical Mixed -> Mixed
  • Lead: Restructure. May not be room for trick. Change EV spread to a Max Spe variant. Suggested: Iron Head / Stealth Rock / (U-turn or Trick) / (Fire Punch / Ice Punch / Thunderpunch)
  • Superachi: Maximize Speed. Test other coverage moves for the fourth slot. Possibly TBolt > HP Fire? Also test HP Ground for Heatran.
  • Physical Choice: Maximize Speed. De-slash Zen Headbutt (mention in comments), de-emphasize Trick. Suggested: Iron Head / Fire Punch / Ice Punch / (ThunderPunch / Trick / U-turn)
  • Support: Mention Thunder in comments but remove slash.
  • Rain Support: Move to Optional Changes
Jolteon:

  • Charge Beam: Remove.
  • Support: Remove.
  • Fake Tears: Did not have time to test, but will do so soon. If worthwhile, will write a set.
Kingdra:

  • Choice Specs: Move to Optional Changes. After extensive testing, I found that Timid gives the speed it needs but not the power, missing a number of crucial OHKOs and just not dealing enough damage in general, while Modest is slower than Heatran, which makes it hard to switch Kingdra in when Heatran just immediately explodes expecting a Waterfall that doesn't OHKO or a Dragon Dance.
Pokemon of choice (Starmie)

  • Set Order: Life Orb to top.
  • Non-Choice: Remove Expert Belt, rename to Life Orb. Add Rapid Spin and Grass Knot as options, remove Psychic.
  • Choice Scarf: Hydro Pump > Surf, remove Psychic.
  • Choice Specs: Hydro Pump > Surf. Replace Psychic with Trick / Grass Knot.
  • Reflect Support: Was unable to test extensively. However, I suspect that there is likely a better spread for this set, and possibly may do better as a dedicated dual screen set. Looking for input here.
 

Stellar

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I would really like to know your reasoning for nixing Charge Beam Jolteon. That is by far my favorite set and I know a lot of other users use it as well.
 
Small notes for me.

@Eric

80.4% - 95.6% from LO offensive Gyarados Earthquake+Waterfall

This doesnt make sense to me, because if you do an Earthquake and a Waterfall, different ranges should appear, considering Earthquake has 200 power after typing and Waterfall 120 after STAB. Or do you mean both attacks being used one after the other will accumulate 80.4-95.6? because that seems sketchy. Or is it an Earthquake or a +1 Waterfall?

@Romeo

I ran a Scizor set similar to the Heracross SubSalac in function, but different in moves. If everyone wants, I could test/alter it and see if I can improve it to today's metagame. It might be hard due to that abundance of SS, like you said, and therefore I see your point. One thing to note might be getting only 2 subs in before the salac kicks in. I don't seem to recall if Fighting typing lowers the effectiveness of Rock/SR on Heracross.

No one responded to my post about my gimmicky sets, which is understandable, but I would like to know if they are going to be tossed out instantly and if I could possibly get some support from anyone who did the recent analyses for Arcanine, Heatran, Scizor, or Starmie. It is small things, no testing or writing wanted from you.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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If they can be written together well, then the two sets could be combined. I'm just a bit worried it's going to turn into roughly:

name: Support
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Earthquake / Meteor Mash
move 3: Bullet Punch / Earthquake (ugly slashes here however you do it, and MM+EQ is good for non-lead)
move 4: Explosion
item: Occa Berry / Lum Berry / Shuca Berry / Leftovers
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 236 Atk / 12 Def / 8 Spe

with:
Impish, a bulky spread like 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe, and possibly Light Screen mentioned in set comments. And explaining in reasonable detail how it works both as a lead (how it does against the rest of the common leads), and how it works as a lategame SRer/general purpose check, along with which options to chose when it's a lead and which to chose when it's not. Well, it could turn into a bit of a monster, unless done very carefully.

Basically with lead and tank is that i'm seeing pretty similar spreads and pretty similar movesets but with mentions of different pokemon.
They have similar spreads, and similar movesets, but not the same. And as you say, very different mentions of Pokemon because they tend to face different things.

But, if you think the comments and slashes can be done well and include all the wanted options and information without it seeming like trying to squash two sets into one, then go for it.

@Eric

80.4% - 95.6% from LO offensive Gyarados Earthquake+Waterfall

This doesnt make sense to me, because if you do an Earthquake and a Waterfall, different ranges should appear, considering Earthquake has 200 power after typing and Waterfall 120 after STAB. Or do you mean both attacks being used one after the other will accumulate 80.4-95.6? because that seems sketchy. Or is it an Earthquake or a +1 Waterfall?
One Waterfall+one Earthquake. To show you can switch in on any standard Gyra attack bar Earthquake and still win.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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I would really like to know your reasoning for nixing Charge Beam Jolteon. That is by far my favorite set and I know a lot of other users use it as well.
When I've used this set or had it used against me, I've always found it to be simply underwhelming most of the time. It rolls on a 63% gamble to be actually decently useful, is too damn frail, and the LO recoil doesn't help either.

It's one of those "why don't you just use specs" things. You do more damage out of the gate, actually have a chance at 2HKOing Tyranitar without relying on luck to hit AND get the boost. Also, unlike stuff like Rotom or Magnezone, it's blazing goddamn fast even with Specs, and as such doesn't have as many issues with fast things.

Note that these decisions are obviously not 100% final. All I know is that I tested it AND had it used against me, and I just found it not all that interesting.
 
I would really like to know your reasoning for nixing Charge Beam Jolteon. That is by far my favorite set and I know a lot of other users use it as well.
I just wanted to clarify that none of the things posted in this thread outside the OP are set in stone. They are just what each QC member proposes. After every proposal is posted, I go and ask all the other QC members to weigh on on their peer's suggestions, and we make decisions based off of that.

PS: You might be comforted in knowing that I will be voting "no" on taking down Charge Beam Jolt.
 

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