Quality Control for On-Site Analyses

[breh]

Raseri, Machoke does suck enough; when I wrote the set, there were two moves that Machoke had over Gurdurr: Sleep Talk and Dynamicpunch. The former is now a moot point and Gurdurr is, ironically, far better at abusing it. Dynamicpunch is a shitty move; although it's haxy, which is nice and all, it's not overwhelmingly good at dealing out much but hax. It's an expired set.

Porygon: Yeah, the last two sets are just bad. The first... I don't know, tbh. It seems ok on paper but that doesn't mean much without any testing. It, uh, can't OHKO Amoonguss even with a Download boost. It's not the strongest, trapped between the dilemma of LO or Evio and forced to choose the latter.

 

[jake]

i'm just going to quickly say that machoke isn't really worthy of an analysis - it's entirely inferior to gurdurr and its only salvageable factor is dynamicpunch (which is actually only slightly stronger than gurdurr's drain punch, anyway). it's also less bulky on the physical side and only marginally more bulky than gurdurr on the special end. gurdurr is just better in every way. :(

i would need a lot of convincing to have porygon retain any part of its analysis.

 

[Oglemi]

Machoke may be one of those borderline cases where, even though it's almost entirely outclassed, it's still viable to a degree. So, keeping its analysis may be the right route to take so that in case someone DOES end up using it, newer players know what to expect (ie. No Guard DynamicPunch RestTalk set). Plus it does already have an analysis; you'd only be losing information by deleting it and only gaining information by updating it.

Ultimately it's up to you guys, but that's how I would have handled it last gen.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Porygon seems (barely) usable, but the Agility set needs to get out of the analysis. How the heck is 85 base Special Attack and 40 base speed going to sweep, and how is it any better than anything else out there. If it gets lucky with Download and uses Agility, you could have just used Gorebyss or something could just use Shell Smash and destroy everything. Or they could just have more than 85 base Special Attack.

Defensive looks lacking in options but is OK, but the Tank set looks usable.

On Machoke, I don't really think it deserves an analysis. It's mostly outclassed by Gurdurr, the only reason you would use Machoke is because it has Dynamicpunch. Even newer users would know this if they knew anything about at all Machamp, so its predictable, so that's a problem.

EDIT: Yeah, Machoke isn't unvaible. Now I agree it won't hurt to keep it.

 

[Raseri]

Machoke may be one of those borderline cases where, even though it's almost entirely outclassed, it's still viable to a degree. So, keeping its analysis may be the right route to take so that in case someone DOES end up using it, newer players know what to expect (ie. No Guard DynamicPunch RestTalk set). Plus it does already have an analysis; you'd only be losing information by deleting it and only gaining information by updating it.

Ultimately it's up to you guys, but that's how I would have handled it last gen.

this really sums up my opinion. Machoke isn't bad. It is mainly outclassed by Gurdurr, but Dynamicpunch does a great job at deterring set up. Also, as Oglemi said, there is no harm in keeping it. All that would happen if we removed it is that there would be less valuable information on the site, its Zebraiken's decision though.

 

[Style_Dota]

I think this is where you post this:

Alomomola on-site has Waterfall listed as it's main attacking option. I think it should be scald, since waterfall is shit coming from Alomomola and the random burns help it wall much better.

Edit: this should probably be the case for all tiers that it has an analysis.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I think this is where you post this:

Alomomola on-site has Waterfall listed as it's main attacking option. I think it should be scald, since waterfall is shit coming from Alomomola and the random burns help it wall much better.

Edit: this should probably be the case for all tiers that it has an analysis.

I think this is pretty arguable. I use alomomola a lot and usualy prefer waterfall. Hitting a bit harder with waterfall helps alomomola break certan subs since alomomola usualy prefers pokes to be toxiced rather than burned (although some things set there ev's in function of momo's waterfall anyway). In the same way, burning something like tangela or opposing alomomola is an annoying thing because you wanted those toxiced. Talking about opposing alomomolas, My own waterfall turned out being just strong enough to kill off things my opponent tried wishpassing to while I had alomomola in, scald would have failed to do so and let those pokes get back to full health. Waterfall is also better when facing zangoose or guts ursaring, 2 of the things that can actually wallbreak momo. In the end, momo is already using another status to damage the majority of pokes and will prefer waterfall against all of those. While you have a certan chance of burning stuff momo can't damage on the switch (like amoonguss), you'd probably be better simply using wish and passing it to you're next poke rather than praying for a burn. Waterfall also gets occasional flinches.

Scald should certanly be mentioned somwhere, but imo waterfall should stay the main option.

 

[melvni]

Speaking of Alomomola, what are people's thoughts of maybe considering Magic Coat for Other Options? It seems like it would be really hard to fit into the standard set, but it also seems like, at least in theory, it could be a decent way to get around Taunt and Toxic if you don't need one of the moves on the main set for some reason.

Clearly, not the best move, but I could see it being up there with Pain Split and Healing Wish.

 

[jake]

so this thread is incredibly dead but i'm going to bump it with a few small changes i plan on making but would like to go through and have other QC members / anyone else who is interested look over them before i make them for sure.

regirock - change preferred nature on offensive tank from adamant to impish; adamant isn't necessary to KO anything iirc and the difference defensively is incredible (doing stuff like changing LO samurott's waterfall from a 50% 2HKO to a guaranteed 3HKO is pretty awesome). remove slash of t-wave - it can either be re-slashed behind eq or removed altogether, i don't mind. t-wave is a pretty heavy burden on regirock now that golurk can basically switch in for free without it. ice punch is probably worthy of consideration for golurk alone. thoughts?

specially defensive regirock is literally non-existent and 'support' regirock is essentially the exact same set with a different spread. can we remove that set and drop the other spreads into AC of the tank set?

amoonguss - actually i was going to write a lot about this but i realized we still have an analysis waiting to be gped

carracosta - adamant becomes primary slash (outspeeding serperior is not that big of an issue). liechi should probably be made into another set imo, but if hail remains / everyone else thinks it's not worth it then i'll just add in the mention later. also re-arranging the sets to put smash first.

emboar - different speed numbers, the current one hits jack all. adamant should have enough for gorebyss (and possibly a little more for timid exeggutor / golurk) and jolly should be running max speed. (is mixed even good?)

gardevoir - perhaps it's just me but i really feel like subcm should be a set (the first one). again we'll have to see whether or not hail goes but subcm is honestly the best gardevoir set i've used by far, and i've used nearly all of them. i also really like the sound of a destiny bond slash on scarf gardevoir, or at least ac mention of it. it's a nice tool to catch something off-guard or to trade a low-hp gardy for a pkmn or to ensure a free switch-in for something else when facing down something like absol or skuntank.

gorebyss - i might be alone in this thought (also lol gorebyss hasn't been updated or needed to change anything since i wrote it in like january) but subsmash is honestly the best set gorebyss has and it should be first. actually i'll push through an update for this analysis later

haunter - subdisable should slash sludge bomb > hp, that is what everyone uses. it also gets owned by cb struggles from everything, so... this is something that needs to be made note of.

kangaskhan - should be using an adamant spread with double-edge slashed before return (and body slam dropped to ac or w/e).

sawsbuck - should be using double-edge to 2HKO amoonguss, slash return behind it but power is a necessity when you're frail as shit

there's plenty of other stuff i need to change but i'll settle with this for now. if QC or anyone wants to look through these and give me y/n answers (and why if you disagree) i'd be grateful, otherwise i'm just going to implement them all tomorrow sometime

 

[Django]

so this thread is incredibly dead but i'm going to bump it with a few small changes i plan on making but would like to go through and have other QC members / anyone else who is interested look over them before i make them for sure.

regirock - change preferred nature on offensive tank from adamant to impish; adamant isn't necessary to KO anything iirc and the difference defensively is incredible (doing stuff like changing LO samurott's waterfall from a 50% 2HKO to a guaranteed 3HKO is pretty awesome). remove slash of t-wave - it can either be re-slashed behind eq or removed altogether, i don't mind. t-wave is a pretty heavy burden on regirock now that golurk can basically switch in for free without it. ice punch is probably worthy of consideration for golurk alone. thoughts?

specially defensive regirock is literally non-existent and 'support' regirock is essentially the exact same set with a different spread. can we remove that set and drop the other spreads into AC of the tank set?

T-Wave should still be mentioned in AC, but I agree it's a lot worse currently. I would probably just slash Ice Punch where T-Wave is currently. Yes on the other changes. Also mention Psych Up Regirock and its role against Kacaw in AC.

carracosta - adamant becomes primary slash (outspeeding serperior is not that big of an issue). liechi should probably be made into another set imo, but if hail remains / everyone else thinks it's not worth it then i'll just add in the mention later. also re-arranging the sets to put smash first.

Smash first y. Liechi should maybe just be AC, at least for now.

emboar - different speed numbers, the current one hits jack all. adamant should have enough for gorebyss (and possibly a little more for timid exeggutor / golurk) and jolly should be running max speed. (is mixed even good?)

Speed changes are fine with me. Mixed is certainly good, but what I think is better is a set around Substitute. It gets so many opportunites to get one up currently, and does work once it does. CBB has been using Sub with 3 special moves, and it looks amazing tbh.

gardevoir - perhaps it's just me but i really feel like subcm should be a set (the first one). again we'll have to see whether or not hail goes but subcm is honestly the best gardevoir set i've used by far, and i've used nearly all of them. i also really like the sound of a destiny bond slash on scarf gardevoir, or at least ac mention of it. it's a nice tool to catch something off-guard or to trade a low-hp gardy for a pkmn or to ensure a free switch-in for something else when facing down something like absol or skuntank.

I've honestly never been able to pin Gardevoir down as having a best set, so the choice of which is first is arbitrary for me. Destiny Bond is one of my favorite moves so y.

gorebyss - i might be alone in this thought (also lol gorebyss hasn't been updated or needed to change anything since i wrote it in like january) but subsmash is honestly the best set gorebyss has and it should be first. actually i'll push through an update for this analysis later

ordering of the sets is again w/e for me. What I do want to see is HP Electric and/or Signal Beam being used over HP Grass, as they are a lot more relevant currently with Mantine and Ludicolo.

haunter - subdisable should slash sludge bomb > hp, that is what everyone uses. it also gets owned by cb struggles from everything, so... this is something that needs to be made note of.

y

kangaskhan - should be using an adamant spread with double-edge slashed before return (and body slam dropped to ac or w/e).

y. As some users may know I also think Fake Out is a bit of wasted potential, and kanga could be better off (in certain situations) using another move. Basically I don't think Fake Out should be the first move, but rather further down and slashed with something else.

sawsbuck - should be using double-edge to 2HKO amoonguss, slash return behind it but power is a necessity when you're frail as shit

y

 

[DTC]

regirock: saying specially defensive regirock is nonexistant is hyperbole; it is used almost as much as 252 atk regirock and players like me still use it pretty often. the two (252 atk vs 252 special defense) sets are indeed pretty similar, but i dont think we should remove useful information for no particular benefit. it's still plenty good for helping regi tank special attacks from the likes of gardevoir, rotom-frost, and such. sunny day support set isn't that good though; that should go under 252 special defense ac. i would also put curse as a slash in regirock. such a damn useful attack on regirock in numerous situations i've been in. twave i agree with going in oo.

carracosta: liechi is still good despite hail, although it really hampers its effectiveness. still deserves a set, but the last set in this hail meta. non hail meta def deserves #1

emboar: mixed is /ok/. sub + 3 attacks is pretty cool; deserves 2nd slot imo.

gardevoir: agree with zeb

gorebyss: agree with zeb & dingo

haunter: agree with zeb

kangaskhan: agree with zeb. fake out is still really good on kanga (it has saved my ass so many times), but i wouldn't mind moving it down a slot or two. it shouldn't be slashed though. no reason to make it slashed b/c there isn't much that great to use with kanga.

sawsbuck: agree with zeb

 

[shstakvchlvr]

I found this on the Rampardos NU analysis: "However, the main reason that special Rampardos is viable over a physical set is that it can break walls with much less drawbacks." It should be fewer, not less. I'm not sure if this is the right thread for corrections but I couldn't find another.

 

[Molk]

Ok, i've fixed the error on the rampardos analysis, it'll take a little while for it to show up though, thanks for helping us out!

for future reference, things like this belong in these two threads, so be sure to post in them if you find any more grammatical errors etc.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30691
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45067

 

[Raseri]

OK I'm going to revive this because it's finally useful again.

Awhile ago QC apparently discussed removing Guts Flareon from the analysis, I wasn't there for the conversation but went with it at the time. I'm starting to doubt that it was the correct move and have put it back onsite so we can actually have a formal discussion about it here. The analysis is located here. I'm not exactly sure what we're going to do to decide, but if there's a clear majority either way I'll go with it.

@Treecko @tennisace @ebeast @Annoyer @WhiteDMist @FLCL @Zebraiken @DTC @Sweet Jesus

 

[Annoyer]

id remove it i feel likes its too outclassed mainly by rapidash who has superior coverage and fire stab as well as speed right off the bat, rapidash also doesnt really kill itself off as badly as flareon does with toxic orb and rapidash can revenge kill more stuff like jynx

i just feel likes its a worse rapidash and it doesnt have that great bulk to support its lowish speed for such an offensive attacker - its typing doesnt help it much when its stab is flame charge

its honestly not really a worthwhile set and i dont want pretty much "shit" sets to go on site

(id be fine tho if it does go up)

 

[tennisace]

I agree with Annoyer, Rapidash also has an Immunity with Flash Fire to switch in on (which coincidentally, Flareon gives up with the Guts set).

 

[ebeast]

No good STAB option, weak to Stealth Rock, relies on Superpower to hit Rock-type Pokemon, (which means it will be switching out a lot, which is bad because of SR weakness) pretty frail so priority is killer, and even with Flame Charge boosts it's still pretty slow. Plus the reliance on Flame Charge just to outspeed things means you have to spend a turn going for a weak move and risk taking a hit. Before you get up your Orb you're also pretty damn weak and Flareon isn't all that bulky without full investment. Common things like Rock-type Pokemon, Alomomola, Golurk, and priority all make Guts Flareon hard to work with and the set is not worth using in my eyes which is why we had decided to remove it in the first place.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that it's also on a timer via Toxic Orb. And if you want to reset the timer you have to switch out and take more SR damage when you come in.

 

[WhiteDMist]

I agree that its a pretty bad set, so I have no problem removing it and just making it a big mention in OO. I actually would compare it to other Guts users as well, and it looks even worse in comparison with its main move non having STAB, and its only real coverage move actually making it weaker after using it so it can't even stay in. It's probably worse in Flareon's case because of its SR weakness and the fact that it NEEDS all the power it gets to make up for lack of STAB. People will still continue using it of course, but I don't think that is enough of a reason to keep it as a set. At least Luxray has an actual STAB to use...

Not to mention that the analysis says it powers through Kangaskhan (well I guess it does if someone is stupid enough to switch it in directly o_O)

 

[tennisace]

@Treecko @Raseri @ebeast @Annoyer @WhiteDMist @FLCL @Zebraiken @DTC @Sweet Jesus

Rotom-S: Which sets should be included?

Currently Scarf, Lure w/Expert Belt, Defensive, and Damp Rock Rain are listed. Nobody on IRC could come to a clear consensus on which sets were good/bad. Scarf is obviously staying, the lure set seems ok, but I'm not entirely sold on the last two (especially the EVs on the Rain Set, I don't think its the one that @Cherub Agent used). Thoughts??

srsly we need an @nuqc tag or something

 

[Annoyer]

keep lure its cool
im not too sure bout damp rock rain but i could see it fitting because rain teams usually destroy the ground types that rotom doesnt like
but electrode is pretty similar (and arguably better) because electrode is faster, has taunt, and has explosion to give a free switch and electrode doesnt even have a rain set onsite but lacks bulk and flying type

idk!

 

[ryan]

I really like the Rain set, but it's situation enough just to get a hearty mention in OO in my opinion.

Scarf and Lure are both a definite yes for me. Scarf is great because classic Scarf etc, and Lure is great in general. Rotom-S's Speed isn't what it used to be, so giving up Scarf isn't that big of a deal. Meanwhile, you can lure out and beat all the Ground-types that give Rotom-S such a difficult time. This helps you spam Volt Switch later on in the match. I used this set a week or two ago, and while the team was pretty meeeeh, Rotom-S definitely stuck out as the top player for the team.

Defensive is bleeeeh. The only real reason to use it imo is just Will-O-Wisp, and even then, I'd rather use Misdreavus.

Also, all the EVs should be 4 Def or SpDef over 4 HP because 5 SR switches vs. 4. Situational, but when it's such a minor change that doesn't sacrifice viability, might as well make it.

 

[Annoyer]

id keep the defensive set, i find it to be a pretty cool pivot and its bulk definitely surprises people when its invested
its kinda cool as a defensive electric type too and fits well with stuff like golurk on the team and burns cripple all the ground types that like switching in on it so i would keep it

 

[Raseri]

sets that should stay:
Scarf
Lure (but with a better name)

Should probably stay:
defensive (it's still cool)

it walls relevant threats and isn't bad at all. Should be last set of the 3 but definitely deserves to be there.

Should probably go:
Rain Dance

I don't like weather sets if it doesn't provide something really special. RD Rotom-s isn't really unique over other potential rain dance users, it just looks like OO material to me.

 

[ryan]

Yeah I agree Lure should just be called Expert Belt or something like that, and I'm ok with defensive if you guys want it. I just don't care much for it myself, but it does have some sweet resistances. :o