Resource Rain Discussion Thread (W4: Keldeo Competition)

[SketchUp]

I don't really think there should be that much discussion about the viability rankings because it is really subjective for the most part. IMO Mega Zam and Mega Hera are nice mega's on rain for sure, but they are not top tier simple as that. Toxicroak would be fine both high and mid in my opinion. I made a quick own version of the rankings but without that much niche stuff and only stuff I've actually tried out and I'm not as big of a rain user as the OP so it might miss some things (Ludicolo for example). Just to show my thoughts about some stuff in the VR without having to make a post every time something is brought up:

vr

Top

Mid

Low

Some other discussion: for the roles of Pokemon on Rain teams I would add a few stuff such as bulky water killers, electric checks, grass checks and stallbreakers (rain has a great matchup against offensive teams but needs more than swimmers to kill stall) There was an old rain topic where I have seen a Role compendium, but as AM said it is kinda outdated. Still some useful stuff in it

 

[Take Azelfie]

Here's the comment.

So I made a guide awhile back of just basic rain roles that I'm not going to particularly link cause it's outdated in the sense that some of the stuff usable are pretty niche and or don't work that well in the current meta (like Chesnaught). This leads to my next points. I'll try to go in order of the OP.

Good Cores: Offensive, Defensive, Balanced

Your cores are pretty basic but it seems like you just plopped stuff just to plop stuff in like M-Hera / Bisharp which I guess is ok but their synergy isn't a thing only to rain. I'm really not a fan of the M-Sableye / Toxicroak core from using it in the past :/ (sorry SketchUp) I think it has a ton of problems that its effective in theory yet keels over to the reality of what they're trying to cover. Toxicroak is barely a check to fairies and in order for Toxicroak to beat most fairies in the tier, it needs a free switch in. Free switch ins are extremely rare for Toxicroak outside of ballsy predictions or calculated doubles.

bludz has been using a Poli / Celebi core everytime he brings in rain in matches I have with him and their synergy I think is really nice considering Celebi supplements a TON of stuff on his team through either Baton Passing for momentum purposes or just passing over a boost to something like Torn-T. I guess this might be a balanced core now that I think about it but meh. The other defensive cores not too concerned with I never saw the point of using a rain stall team in ORAS, maybe I'll try it out sometime in the future for shits and giggles.

M-Manectric / Torn-T is fine I've used that a good amount. The Moltres / Rotom-W duo being "odd" is an understatement lol. I think Moltres is actually pointless in rain and is much more effective in sand with a SubRoost dual STAB life orb set. Running a Moltres on rain just makes your team weaker to the likes of Azumarill and Keldeo which is seriously the last thing you need for two things that are already mindless to begin with in some battles.

I've been sort of busy multi-tasking different things, shitposting in Skype, watching Avarice be his weird self in the OU room, and writing long explanations like these so when I have time I can provide some rain sets and what not in that section you're missing.

Rain Setters: Rain Setters, Swift Swimmers, Other Sweepers

I'm not a big fan of the rain setters you're implying here. For example most of the rain setters rely on some sort of defensive utility which leads me to believe Meowstic is a pretty poor choice to the much more superior Uxie and Azelf. I'm not thrilled by using Rotom-W on a rain build simply for the fact you're not really adding on any sort of beneficial role compression or real utility other than what Rotom-W does by itself. It's a difference with stuff like Thundurus because it has the option of running variants to break down normal checks to rain such as M-Venusaue with HP Flying while offsetting offense with Thunder Wave who normally annoy conventional rain builds. I think you need to put emphasis on the rain setter thing in terms of everything outside of Politoed is a luxury, and a pretty large emphasis at that. Most rain builds only need Politoed, secondary setters are actually quite rare considering that the majority of them are either niche or in the case of something like Latis want to be running coverage or other utility to help the team. I've only seen 1 good build use a secondary setter in ORAS and that was doughboys rain build early on in ORAS with M-Swamp, Thundurus, Kingdra, Politoed, Klefki, Breloom. Every other rain build I've seen that is effectively used only does so by using Politoed.

I'd go as far to say that if you're gonna place stuff in the way you're doing by Tiers through Stars Kabutops is most certainly not a 3 Star Swift Swimmer. I'll take the ballsy route and say that Kingdra should be the only 3 star Swift Swimmer on that list considering there's about 3 good switchs in to it tops with Ferrothorn, Chansey, and Blissey. All the other Swift Swimmers on that list have either pretty apparent flaws or wiggle room to play around them more effectively, whether it be through their own implementation of teams through synergy or individual effectiveness. Ludicolo is really like a 1 and Beartic would be like a .5 lol. If I really wanted to troll somebody I would just use specs tyranitar or some nonsense that I usually troll people with effectively.

I think M-Scizor is overrated so no comment I'll take that 3 star position with a grain of salt for the time being. There's so much better to use than M-Bro on rain I don't see the point of actually having it there what so ever. Reuniclus seems like it was just thrown in their for more laughs I don't really quite get its specific trait for rain that it would provide other than naturally checking stuff like M-Venusaur which it already does without rain anyways. SR M-Swampert is a huge liability considering it's always gonna need that 4th move to break certain archetypes.

Rain Type Viability Rankings:

Not liking the idea of this one and some of these are extremely subjective but I guess I'll bite. Some of your stuff also contradicts some of the prior things you mentioned like Garchomp being a Tier 3 Hazard setter (which it is) but not even in the top of the rankings. Toxicroak really isn't a top level rain thing it's more mid. In the future I think a pretty large clean up is in order seeing as some of these are either too much of an opportunity cost or plain bad. The whole "unviable" argument people use I sort of have slowly calmed down on contrary to this forums tendency of screaming bloody murder about that but it's silly to see some of these on there since you would never realistically use them even to mess around (like Meowstic).

Rains pretty easy to build lol so again when free I'll throw together some teams and sets.

Fyi, Topics of the week suck. They always have just from seeing other threads try to dedicate topics when stuff like this it's better to just have a general place for discussion to include replays, teams, sets, relevant points, etc. that's it for me for now might come back later.

Some of these cores aren't necessary just for rain like HaraSharp but I decided to mention it because they both work really good in rain.

Poli + Celebi was going to be add eventually but I've been getting swarmed with homework (really life when I try to help out with something big like this)

That is 3 Strikes for Meowstic I'll remove it, I will be adding Azelf and that thing about Uxie is overrated as a rain setter and personally I think Bronzong is a hell of a lot better but I'll add it to low tier as well as make a summary for it in the Rain Setter section

I'll also half to disagree with the Rotom W statement. I find my self using it in most rain balance forms when I was laddering alts. It is one of the pokemon that get a burn past Scald without being a fire type.

I'll add a note saying that most teams only need Politoed and that a secondary rain setter should only be used if there is space.

I think a lot of people would have to disagree with the Kabutops statement. Of course if other people agree to having it drop from high and 3 star then it will happen. But seriously when a Kabutops sets up on you how much damage does it usually do?

Ludicolo is border line and just I can clear this -1 Star not one star but Negative one star literally put on so newer people don't get the wrong idea from PokeaimMD and his "Well played Beartic" and also for shits and giggles.

Some of the pokemon on the list are also more in a commensalism (see school is a good for talking like a smart ass on forums) relationship like Mega Medicham and Gyarados. They help rain but rain doesn't necessarily help them.

I have been getting a lot of, "this is just outclassed in general." and, "this is unviable." so I'll be revising that tonight once I get people to stop aiming bricks at my head. But this really does help a lot and I hope to see you comment more in the future when this is more established.

 

[ManOfMany]

Ludicolo is way better than Beartic, Armaldo, etc. It should be a 2 star. It is basically Kingdra except of Dragon STAB it has a Grass STAB and access to Focus Blast, which can be helpful for some teams who struggle with Azumarill, Gastrodon, Rotom-W, Suicune etc

Beartic though, is there really any reason at all to use it over Kabutops? Same with Armaldo, they both seem entirely outclassed, especially because the main grass type resist (Mega Venu) can't be hit super-effectively by them anyway.

Also Gothitelle should probably get a bigger mention somewhere. The ability (with a Specs set) to rap and eliminate Mega Venusaur, Hippowdon with Energy Ball, and even Tyranitar with HP fighting is great. It can also trap other troublesome pokemon like Gastrodon, Rotom-W, Scarf Keldeo, etc and use Trick on Chansey.

 

[Take Azelfie]

I don't really think there should be that much discussion about the viability rankings because it is really subjective for the most part. IMO Mega Zam and Mega Hera are nice mega's on rain for sure, but they are not top tier simple as that. Toxicroak would be fine both high and mid in my opinion. I made a quick own version of the rankings but without that much niche stuff and only stuff I've actually tried out and I'm not as big of a rain user as the OP so it might miss some things (Ludicolo for example). Just to show my thoughts about some stuff in the VR without having to make a post every time something is brought up:

vr

Top

Mid

Low

Some other discussion: for the roles of Pokemon on Rain teams I would add a few stuff such as bulky water killers, electric checks, grass checks and stallbreakers (rain has a great matchup against offensive teams but needs more than swimmers to kill stall) There was an old rain topic where I have seen a Role compendium, but as AM said it is kinda outdated. Still some useful stuff in it

The source you left will help out alot thanks. as for the tier list I'll look over it. Very simple and very precise.

 

[MANNAT]

Personally, I feel like there is a ton of niche mons that don't need to be here as this thread should be here generally to show how rain teams are supposed to work, and more experienced players can be free to experiment with mons like Armaldo, Beartic, Accelgor, etc. For this reason, many of the mons in the lower tier should probably be removed, and there are a lot of random rain setters that really don't need to be there as much as others. Also, there's a ton of messed up hide tags in the OP that need to be fixed, just saying.

 

[Take Azelfie]

I was crying for 2 hours trying to fix it and I finally did.

 

[aceguy123]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/downpour-the-most-standard-but-effective-rain-team.3542789/

I'm just going to post the RMT of my rain team I've been using for quite a while now that's reached within the top 50 on the ladder at certain times. I would like to think it is a more balanced rain team with pretty noticeable weaknesses but playing with it a long time has let me circumvent those weaknesses at times to secure victories. Full SpDef Ferro in rain is ridiculously underrated and completely halts many teams and Manaphy in rain as a bulky wallbreaker is disgusting. I think the core of Poli + Torn-T+ Thund-I should be mentioned in the OP because you can pretty much build your sweepers/supporters around that core and make a kickass team.

 

[Take Azelfie]

I'll take a look at it in a little when my break comes up.

 

[MikeDawg]

Yo theorymon ahoy, but I see little reason as to why this empoleon can't be viable particularly given rain support:

Empoleon @ Petya Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 12 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
- Substitute/Grass Knot
- Agility
- Surf
- Ice Beam/Grass Knot

Throwback to the bw set that was a throwback to the dpp set. Given its common role as a passive defogger, it at least has the advantage of reasonable surprise. Torrent+rain+petya is ~a +3 boost. +agility makes empoleon into a rather large threat pretty quickly. Torrent+petya is still a +2, so empoleon is almost as threatening once rain peeters out, something that cant be said about most of the other rain sweepers.

Due to its bulk and the fact that we are trying to take advnatge of the rain, substitute can be replaced with grass knot to better take on bulky waters. We are then relying on empoleon's ability to take a hit and end up at 25%, a quicker albeit riskier approach.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Yo theorymon ahoy, but I see little reason as to why this empoleon can't be viable particularly given rain support:

Empoleon @ Petya Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 12 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
- Substitute/Grass Knot
- Agility
- Surf
- Ice Beam/Grass Knot

Throwback to the bw set that was a throwback to the dpp set. Given its common role as a passive defogger, it at least has the advantage of reasonable surprise. Torrent+rain+petya is ~a +3 boost. +agility makes empoleon into a rather large threat pretty quickly. Torrent+petya is still a +2, so empoleon is almost as threatening once rain peeters out, something that cant be said about most of the other rain sweepers.

Due to its bulk and the fact that we are trying to take advnatge of the rain, substitute can be replaced with grass knot to better take on bulky waters. We are then relying on empoleon's ability to take a hit and end up at 25%, a quicker albeit riskier approach.

4 defense 12 HP is for? and also did I remove Empoleon? I thought I put it in low tier due to it being outclassed by Skarmory. i'll add it back and as for the set if that comment gets 3 likes (not including mine) I'll add it to the set. It is gimmicky and it might be hard to get approval of to. After 3 likes and if no one has any say about the set being bad I'll add it.

 

[DragonairDance]

I've been waiting for a thread like this. Rain is definitely one of my favorite styles. I've been playing around with different builds and i ended up coming up with a more swift swim spam team.The team has a difficult time versus stall, but I've been facing a lot of HO on the ladder, so i felt using mega swampert would help not only overwhelm HO but also help me contain momentum when facing electric types such as raikou and mega manectric. Was able to peak 1884 on the ladder . (#7)

Team:
http://pastebin.com/wTwFXKav

Proof of Peak:
http://puu.sh/lb8Dj.JPG

The team worked well out well. a few of my losses were to stall, i lost near to do know HO which i mainly faced, and balance wasn't that bad of a match up as well . I feel with the swampert kingdra and kabutops water overkill would help just overwhelm certain match ups.

 

[MANNAT]

I've been waiting for a thread like this. Rain is definitely one of my favorite styles. I've been playing around with different builds and i ended up coming up with a more swift swim spam team.The team has a difficult time versus stall, but I've been facing a lot of HO on the ladder, so i felt using mega swampert would help not only overwhelm HO but also help me contain momentum when facing electric types such as raikou and mega manectric. Was able to peak 1884 on the ladder . (#7)

Team:
http://pastebin.com/wTwFXKav

Proof of Peak:
http://puu.sh/lb8Dj.JPG

The team worked well out well. a few of my losses were to stall, i lost near to do know HO which i mainly faced, and balance wasn't that bad of a match up as well . I feel with the swampert kingdra and kabutops water overkill would help just overwhelm certain match ups.

wouldnt running a wallbreaking mega>pert basically fix the team's matchup vs stall while having 2 swift swimmers, a bulky steel in ferro, and a fast LO tornt to deal with offense be enough?

 

[Take Azelfie]

I've been waiting for a thread like this. Rain is definitely one of my favorite styles. I've been playing around with different builds and i ended up coming up with a more swift swim spam team.The team has a difficult time versus stall, but I've been facing a lot of HO on the ladder, so i felt using mega swampert would help not only overwhelm HO but also help me contain momentum when facing electric types such as raikou and mega manectric. Was able to peak 1884 on the ladder . (#7)

Team:
http://pastebin.com/wTwFXKav

Proof of Peak:
http://puu.sh/lb8Dj.JPG

The team worked well out well. a few of my losses were to stall, i lost near to do know HO which i mainly faced, and balance wasn't that bad of a match up as well . I feel with the swampert kingdra and kabutops water overkill would help just overwhelm certain match ups.

Thanks for the team man, stuff like this is always appreciated.
Just a few questions I need you to clarify.

• What does Swampert's EV spread do
• What does Politoed's EV spread do

I think that is it but once again thanks for contributing

 

[Take Azelfie]

wouldnt running a wallbreaking mega>pert basically fix the team's matchup vs stall while having 2 swift swimmers, a bulky steel in ferro, and a fast LO tornt to deal with offense be enough?

I think the idea behind the team was, "Spam Swift Swim in rain." but I suppose running a Mega Heracross would be better than Mega Swampert IMO.

 

[DragonairDance]

Thanks for the team man, stuff like this is always appreciated.
Just a few questions I need you to clarify.

• What does Swampert's EV spread do
• What does Politoed's EV spread do

I think that is it but once again thanks for contributing

swampert is just enough speed to out speed scarf max jolly lando when mega evolved and in rain. politoed is just meant to to outspeed non invested mega scizor by 1 point. then the rest in in defense. And yeah maybe a wallbreaking mega would be better, but i feel that swampert being a ground type just makes the offensive matchup and some balance matchups better solely that i dont have to worry about switching in my ferrothorn to just get volt switched and just losing momentum. maybe it's just the way i play it works for me .

 

[DragonairDance]

I also have a few replays as well

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-283043840

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-283050815

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-283075334

And one came against stall to show it isn't IMPOSSIBLE (on old alt but against well known player)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-265213884

 

[Take Azelfie]

I also have a few replays as well

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-283043840

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-283050815

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-283075334

And one came against stall to show it isn't IMPOSSIBLE (on old alt but against well known player)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-265213884

added the team and replays. You have a lot of replay slots so don't be hesitant to post them.

 

[Take Azelfie]

I updated the topic of the week and Pelliper post. I'm tired and am probably going to hibernate.

 

[DragonairDance]

TotW:
I believe Hazards is very essential when it comes to rain teams, and to more specific rocks. Ferrothorn, Celebi , Forretress, skarmory are valuable rockers as they provide good defensive typing to go well with the weaknesses of the water mons. Hazard stacking is also a good option for rain teams because it adds a different way of going about your end game invision, and how you plan to reach that. Most rain teams use powerhouse attackers to weaken walls and take on offfensive mons, but with hazard stacking you can weaken the mons through force switchings to rack up damage to provide a late game sweep with your Swift Swimmers. Scolipede's spikes and toxic spikes can help weaken grounded mons by countless poison turns and constant entry damage. Dragalge is also a good supportive mon for rain as it provides toxic spikes to help break sash, and with the poison/dragon offensive typing provides a good way to weaken walls that the Swift Swimmers can have trouble with (For example: Celebi, rotom-W, clefable). Typing works well defensively as it provides a switchin to mons like Keldeo or Mega Venusaur.

Notable good mons for hazards in Rain:

Stealth Rock:
Ferrothorn
Skarmory
Forretress
Celebi
Garchomp
Empoleon
Uxie
Azelf
Seismitoad
Smeargle

Spikes:
Klefki
Scolipede
Ferrothorn
Qwilfish
Accelgor(also provides final gambit to help get rid of certain walls)
Chesnaught
Forretress
Smeargle

Toxic Spikes:
Scolipede
Qwilfish
Forretress
Dragalge
Tentacruel
Omastar
Smeargle

Sticky web (you really don't need this):
Galvantula
Smeargle
Shuckle

 

[Martin]

Why have u mentioned Glav and Smeargle for webs but not the actually viable webber lol

 

[DragonairDance]

Why have u mentioned Glav and Smeargle for webs but not the actually viable webber lol

i'll edit in shuckle..

 

[-Ixtamacunxi-]

Add Mamo to SR setters imo, it sets rocks and is also a pretty good electric check and wallbreaker.

 

[Take Azelfie]

I have been testing out Mega Sceptile with Shell Smash Omastar in a team and it was a hell of a lot of fun but that is off topic to what I want to say, the next topic of the weak is up to a vote so if you want one to be next weeks discussion vote for it. I'll have a strawpoll right here for you submit responses.
Also...

TotW:
I believe Hazards is very essential when it comes to rain teams, and to more specific rocks. Ferrothorn, Celebi , Forretress, skarmory are valuable rockers as they provide good defensive typing to go well with the weaknesses of the water mons. Hazard stacking is also a good option for rain teams because it adds a different way of going about your end game invision, and how you plan to reach that. Most rain teams use powerhouse attackers to weaken walls and take on offfensive mons, but with hazard stacking you can weaken the mons through force switchings to rack up damage to provide a late game sweep with your Swift Swimmers. Scolipede's spikes and toxic spikes can help weaken grounded mons by countless poison turns and constant entry damage. Dragalge is also a good supportive mon for rain as it provides toxic spikes to help break sash, and with the poison/dragon offensive typing provides a good way to weaken walls that the Swift Swimmers can have trouble with (For example: Celebi, rotom-W, clefable). Typing works well defensively as it provides a switchin to mons like Keldeo or Mega Venusaur.

Notable good mons for hazards in Rain:

Stealth Rock:
Ferrothorn
Skarmory
Forretress
Celebi
Garchomp
Empoleon
Uxie
Azelf
Seismitoad
Smeargle

Spikes:
Klefki
Scolipede
Ferrothorn
Qwilfish
Accelgor(also provides final gambit to help get rid of certain walls)
Chesnaught
Forretress
Smeargle

Toxic Spikes:
Scolipede
Qwilfish
Forretress
Dragalge
Tentacruel
Omastar
Smeargle

Sticky web (you really don't need this):
Galvantula
Smeargle
Shuckle

Cool list I have used pretty much everything on it.

 

[Jetplane]

Does Swanna have any viablity? It has STAB Hydro Pump, STAB Hurricane, Hydration Rest, decent filler moves like Ice Beam and U-turn. Along with usable stats and a good defensive tyling, I think Swanna could be a low tier pokemon in termsof rain viablity.

 

[EraiMHFU]

Does Swanna have any viablity? It has STAB Hydro Pump, STAB Hurricane, Hydration Rest, decent filler moves like Ice Beam and U-turn. Along with usable stats and a good defensive tyling, I think Swanna could be a low tier pokemon in termsof rain viablity.

See the previous posts dude, Swanna was rejected because its outclassed by every other rain abuser.