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Rain Stall Team

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Huifao, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. Huifao

    Huifao

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    30
    Hello Smogon! Although I have been a dedicated pokemon fan for several years, I have always seemed to turn a blind eye to competitive battling, simply going for the in game experience, but recently I thought I would give it try and I haven't looked back!

    After reading several very helpful articles on the Smogon website, I decided to create a rain stall team. Partly because where I live it never seems to stop raining! Although I have experimented with rain offense, I feel this team is more suited to my style as I am a more defensively minded player, and I didn't want my team to be exactly the same as about a third of all the teams out there! So here's the team:

    [​IMG]

    Monsoon (Politoed) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Protect
    - Perish Song

    Ofcourse, the essential to any rain team, politoed. The aim is to keep him alive as long as possible against other weather teams, so I have chosen a defensive set, this obviously combines with the fact that the team is highly defensive. Scald is there for a main STAB move and deals decent damage to most pokemon that do not resist it. Toxic cripples many pokemon that politoed could otherwise not touch. Protect is used as a stalling move and perish song is useful to force out an adversary pokemon or in the rare case that the opponent is down to their last pokemon to guarantee a win.

    [​IMG]

    (Fort Knox) Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 168 SDef / 88 Def / 252 HP
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Power Whip
    - Gyro Ball
    - Leech Seed
    - Spikes

    Again, almost an essential on every rain team, ferrothorn. He counters an incredible amount of pokemon, especially those that other pokemon on the team have trouble to deal with. He can tank electric moves well and laughs at any grass moves used on him. He works well in the rain as it weakens his weakness to fire. The moveset is pretty standard. Power Whip and Gyro Ball as two strong and reliable STAB moves, spikes for entry hazards (although I have considered stealth rock too and cannot seem to decide) and leech seed to try and provide him with some sort of recovery to increase his longevity.

    [​IMG]

    Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SDef / 252 Def
    Bold Nature
    - Seismic Toss
    - Wish
    - Heal Bell
    - Toxic

    Chansey acts as the team cleric, healing status and wishing back health points all around. She also tanks special hits extremely well and can take a surprising amount of physical ones too thanks to her massive HP and eviolite. This chansey however seems to have the condition of four move syndrome. Seismic toss is there to deal consistent damage and help break substitutes that the other pokemon simply could not. Wish is there to heal any pokemon and itself, Heal Bell heals all status and has turned out to be a really essential move and toxic cripples the opponent often leaving them with only a few turns left due to the mechanics of bad poisoning. The problem is that chansey has no reliable form of recovery in the form of softboiled and this can be a problem, especially against faster physical threats.


    [​IMG]


    Ujelly? (Jellicent) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Scald
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Taunt

    Acting as a spinblocker and a great all round defensive pokemon as it can take physical and special hits from some of the strongest pokemon in the metagame. It has basically perfect synergy with ferrothorn, both pokemon resisting eachothers weaknesses and is useful against fighting types that chansey may have problems dealing with. Scald acts as a STAB move and combines well with Will-O-Wisp inflict burns and render many physical attackers such as scizor useless. Recover allows jellicent to stay alive longer and Taunt forces many defensive pokemon to switch out giving jellicent the chance to recover health or inflict a burn on the incoming pokemon.

    [​IMG]

    Tentacruel (M) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Scald
    - Protect

    Tentacruel is my rapid spinner and is great defensively as it regains 25% health every two turns (whilst only being hit once) thanks to protect. Toxic spikes adds hazards and if he can set down two layers it is very useful, especially if the opponent lacks a grounded poison type. Scald is used to deal damage and the 30% burn chance is obviously very handy. Rapid Spin, as discussed is essential and Protect helps stall out the opponent and enables him to regain more health every turn. I have also considered using the sub toxic set, but I do not know which one would be more appropriate.

    [​IMG]

    Ditto @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Imposter
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 2 Spd
    - Transform

    Ditto, the pokemon no one would ever dream of using in the past generations has come back with a bang. When combined with a choice scarf, he acts as possibly THE best revenge killer in the game. This ditto has won me innumerable games and seems to deal with many of the problems that stall teams face. The opponent will rarely dare set up with ditto in the team preview, stopping threats such as sword dance scizor and dragon dance dragonite with ease. The 2 IVs in speed give Ditto a hidden power ice which can help against some hidden power users such as Thundurus-T. Ditto helps counter non boosting threats as well such as choice band haxorus, turning the opponents favourite and strongest pokemon against them.

    Conclusion

    I have been using this team now very regularly for the past week (since I started playing) and I have been winning about 70% of the games I play on pokemon showdown which I think is good for my first team. Threats to this team do not seem very common, but electric types can often cause problems as well as calm mind users that ditto might have problems dealing with such as Reuniclus as it is difficult to wear down thanks to its great ability and recover. Breloom also seems to be a bit of a problem pokemon.

    Changes I have considered making:
    1.Replacing a pokemon by Wobbuffet, as the custap berry is now released for bw2. I don't know whether is a good choice however, and if it is, which pokemon to be replaced?? I think that Wobbuffet would also combine well with Ditto. Any help on this point would be much appreciated.
    2.Changing one of chanseys move,
    3.Using a sub toxic set on tentacruel,
    4.Replacing spikes with stealth rocks on the ferrothorn set.

    Threats
    This is not a threat list as such, but just ideas that opponents have used that I found difficult to deal with.
    1.Substitute users such as toxicroak cause problems for the team as ditto cannot come in and they can be often difficult to break.
    2.Bulky set up sweepers such as calm mind reuniclus that ditto cannot often beat.
    3. Hail teams; these teams seem difficult to beat as I do not have a decent pokemon do dispatch Abomasnow

    As I have already mentioned I have very new to the competitive battle scene, so any advice whether it is a matter of changing four EVs on a pokemon to replacing two pokemon on the team would be very helpful. To finish, I hope this team will provide some originality on the current rain teams!
  2. Frochtejohgurt

    Frochtejohgurt

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    213
    Hello,

    I like your use of Ditto, although it seems to be a bit out of place as a dedicated revenge killer on a stall team.

    The biggest problem I see is your lack of Stealth Rocks, which are pretty much mandatory on every team, and they will help out a lot against Flying types, which are immune to your Spikes. You could put them on Ferrothron over Power Whip or on Chansey over Heal Bell. I recommend to put them on Chansey since Ferrothron already needs to set up Spikes. Speaking of Chansey I suggest to replace Wish with Softboiled, because without Protect Wish is pretty unreliable and makes it easy for your opponent to wear it down. Loosing out on Wish support isn't as bad, since most of your Pokemon have some from of decent recovery.
    Also you can beat Substitute users and Reuniclus with Perish Song.

    Good luck

    tl;dr (open)

    Chansey's Wish --> Softboiled
    Stealth Rocks on Chansey or Ferrothron
  3. Huifao

    Huifao

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    30
    Thanks Frochtejohgurt. Well I suppose I use ditto for more than just revenge killing, he helps switching in to quite a few pokemon with a bit of well timed prediction. For the other points, I do agree that stealth rock would probably help quite a bit, so thanks for that suggestion.
  4. Mr. Green

    Mr. Green

    Joined:
    May 14, 2011
    Messages:
    143
    Hi, there

    The first problem I notice is that your team does not place Stall Stealth Rock, so first thing would find a Pokemon you want to assign this move, which is very important especially for Dragonite, Volcarona, Salamence, Thundurus-T and so on.
    Otherwise, you can see very open against physical moves, especially against Terrakion Choice Band with Stone Edge that hurts even Tentacruel and Jellicent (2 Okho) and Close Combat with the rest of the team also Ferrothorn, just because it resists without Recovery Moves have to rely on Leech Seed which is not exactly a Recovery Move Protect also do not even have to recover more energy, another significant threat is Toxicroak, that you have no way to stop it.
    The solutions that you suggest to solve these problems, namely the lack of Stealth Rock, Choice Band Terrakion and Toxicroak, are these: insert Skarmory> Ferrothorn and Amoonguss> Jellicent.
    Skarmory is better to place the Ferrothorn Spikes, because this has a Recovery Moves (Roost), and can recover HP, easily, has Whirlwind to send via opponents hazardous and acts as counter perfectly Toxicroak that gives you the big problems, also by a excellent coverage from the physical side paired with Chansey that from the special side Amoonguss instead goes to the place of Jellicent, to solve the problem Terrakion, Amoonguss thanks to Regenerator, can safely be hit by any move Terrakion, to then be replaced with another Pokemon based on what move he used Terrakion, also replaces the loss as of Ferrothorn Grass team, and an extra hand even against Breloom that it was dangerous too. Jellicent made ​​by spin-bloker but remember that in a stall team a spin-bloker is appreciated but not required, you can make the defensive play that you want anyway, Amoonguss covers exactly as Ferrothorn also moves from electro, and gives you the possibility of an opposing pokemon to sleep, which is quite useful. Now comes the main problem, who to Stealth Rock, or refusing to give Chansey Heal Bell which if you play with more attention you can do without, but you have to play more cautiously Pokemon against any status or by a Skarmory Spikes and Stealth Rock which, renouncing Whirlwind, I would give up Heal Bell, however, because Whirlwind is important to send away some Pokemon dangerous (Dragonite with Dragon Dance for example).

    Without these changes, which are the main ones, to address the weaknesses of the team, I would still change the moveset to Politoed from this spread Evs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spd. The 44 in Spd Evs used to outrun Scizor and hit it with Scald, which is under KO when you kill it, then put Bold nature> Serious, that Serius is neutral and therefore useless no influence on any statistics. On Politoed could try Refresh> Perish Song, in the absence of Heal Bell, you have your Weather Changer well covered by status.
    Tentacruel advice for the set with Substitute-Toxic, works better because it is difficult to poison with Toxic Spikes, given the high number of Steel, Rapid-Spinner Flyng and running, with the set Sub-Toxic stall you can perfectly Jellicent, and try to burn Ferrothorn and other Tentacruel from behind the Substitute, as well as poison other Pokemon with Toxic.
    Good luck, with your team!

    Sets
    Show Hide

    Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Brave Bird
    - Spikes
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind

    Amoonguss (M) @ Leftovers/Black Sludge
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 28 SAtk / 124 SDef / 8 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Spore
    - Stun Spore
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Evs special in special attack to break the Substitute Calm Mind Keldeo, evs in defense Terrakion, Evs in speed to be faster than other Amoonguss, the rest divided between HP and special defense.

    Refresh > Perish Song (for Politoed)
    252 HP / 216 SDef / 44 Spd (for Politoed)

    Tentacruel (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Substitute
    - Rapid Spin
  5. Alexander.

    Alexander.
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,675
    Hello man I like a lot the use of Ditto as revenge-killer anyway let's start with the rate!

    First of all, your team hasn't the Stealth Rock. It's very important because it helps with many threats like Volcarona, Dragonite, Salamence, Thundurus-T, Tornadus-T etcetera therefore I suggest you to use Stealth Rock, replacing Heal Bell on Chansey because already Ferrothorn has Spikes. I'd also use Softboiled, replacing Wish. It without Protect isn't a very good move because Chansey'll have to wait one turn before to recover her HP with Wish. Then, on Politoed I suggest you to use Bold Nature, replacing Serious Nature. Probably it's only a mistake but I have to change Politoed's nature. Serious Nature is a very useless nature because it doesn't change any statistics otherwise Bold Nature is useful to tank physical hits better and that's always nice. Third, always speaking about Politoed, I'd use Refresh, replacing Protect. Protect is useful to recover some HP and to scout opponent's move but Refresh in my opinion is a better move in this team because it's a bit weak to sun teams since you haven't any switch into Ninetales (Politoed doesn't love the burn from Will-O-Wisp) and also Venusaur is quite problematic to beat if sun is up. Refresh allows Politoed to switch into Ninetales without fear of Will-O-Wisp so you can win the weather war more easily against sun teams. Finally, on Tentacruel I suggest you to use SubToxic set, replacing your current one because Toxic Spikes aren't always useful in the current metagame because Venusaur and Tentacruel are everywhere to remove them without any problem and many pokèmon have a steel and flying type or they have Levitate to avoid the Toxic Spikes. The Tentacruel which I'd suggest you otherwise is useful to Rapid Spin the entry hazards thanks to Substitute and Toxic and it's better than Toxic Spikes Tentacruel. Here's the set you should use:

    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Tentacruel (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Substitute
    - Rapid Spin


    Anyways, nice stall team! Good luck!
  6. Huifao

    Huifao

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    30
    Thank you very much for taking the time to rate my team.
    @Mr. Green I agree with stealth rock and I will most definitely put that in place. I also like your idea of skarmory and Amoongus, two pokemon that I seem to have problems with myself! I will try putting into place your advice and see the results, and yes of course, my mistake for putting it as a serious nature. Thanks for the rate!
    @Alexander yes, I will put stealth roxk in place and the nature is of course meant to be bold. A silly mistake on my part but thankyou for pointing it out all the same. I will also go for the sub toxic set, I've always felt like I probably should anyway, and thanks a lot for the rate!
  7. Jok

    Jok

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2012
    Messages:
    9
    Hey.
    It is interesting of you for using Jellicent in a Rain Stall 8as much as it would seem odd, it's very rare) however, if you want to block opposing Tentacruel's better you should consider Night Shade over Scald this way you can hit tentacruel's Substitute way better.
    If you are using Wish Chansey you should put ASAP Protect over Toxic by using Wish alone you don't have a solid recover, and this sometimes may be very dangerous for you, as chansey is also your primal special wall.

    Hope it helped good luck
  8. youngjake93

    youngjake93

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,548
    You have 3 sources of Toxic, 1 Wil-o-Wisper, and 3 Scalders.. That is sort of bad synergy, especially if you go with these suggestions to remove Heal Bell.
    You also have max HP investment on every single Pokemon other than Chansey and they all have big HP stats. That will get you less out of Leech Seed. You also need to fit SR somewhere.
    I can offer some small suggestions, but it looks in need of a total revamp tbh.
    Firstly, take out either Scald or Toxic for Ice Beam on Politoed. It has the bulk to counter +1 dragons, but it will need the weapon to do so(you can't rely on Ditto for everything).
    Second, replace Wil-O-Wisp with Shadow Ball. You already have a 30% chance to burn with Scald and you have no way to deal with Toxicroak or opposing Jellicent.
    The third may seem unconventional, but you have no way to deal with Breloom and most grass types. I suggest replacing Chansey with physically defensive Altaria. It has dozens of support options including Heal Bell so pick your weapons. Chansey is really only a supporting role on this team providing only Wish, which you can't even afford to run well.
  9. Huifao

    Huifao

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    30
    Thanks for the rate Jok. Really? I've seen it on a couple of rain stall teams myself on pokemon showdown, but maybe it is just a coincidence! I've considered that actually, I think it may be useful to deal reliable damage and break some substitutes. As for protect on Chansey, I think I'll use softboiled over wish as has been suggested as I agree wish on it's own is not a consistent form of recovery.
  10. Huifao

    Huifao

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    30
    @youngjake93 I understand what you are saying, I think that following Mr Greens suggestions would add more variety to the team and would really I prove it so I will definitely be trying that out. Do you not think that would sort the problems you mentioned? There would be one less scald user, skarmory with whirlwind to deal with set up sweepers as I do agree with the fact that I cannot always rely on my prized ditto! I shall also look into the Altaria as it certainly seems interesting even if unconventional. Thanks for the rate!
  11. CedOmega

    CedOmega

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Messages:
    217
    Hey Huifao, you have a nice team here!

    Your team seems to be extremely weak to the mixed variant Therian Tornadus. Specs Tornadus-T can Hurricane spam your team to death with little to worry about in return outside of Ditto's Imposter. Even then, Tornadus' team may be able to counter its efforts of revenging. To counter this, I suggest Sp.Defensive Rotom-W>Jellicent. Rotom-W can tank Hurricanes for days while being able to slow Tornadus' attacks with a T-Wave. A spread of 252 Hp/28 Sp.Attk/228 Sp.Def should suffice. With VoltSwitch, Rotom-W can scout, but with Thunder/Thunderbolt, Rotom-W takes a more offensive approach to the opposing team. PainSplit is a great move to use on Rotom, too, due to it sharing damage taken from the opposing pokemon's attacks.
    Rotom-W
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-W@Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    Nature: Calm
    252 Hp/ 28 Sp.Attk/228 Sp.Def
    HydroPump, Thunder/Thunderbolt/VoltSwitch, PainSplit & Will-o-Wisp/ThunderWave


    Just A Unique Thought I Had When I Saw "Rain" and "Stall" (open)

    I like the idea of Stall teams under rain. Just a thought, but have you considered Ludicolo? Rain Dish + LeechSeed + Lefties is notorius for being very annoying to deal with in Rain. It can abuse Leech Seed better than Ferrothorn ever could under rain, while also dealing damage to the foe with its other 3 attack slots; this leaves room for attacks like Scald, GigaDrain, IceBeam, IcyWind, FocusBlast, additional RainDance, Toxic, Protect, etc. In my experience, I've even come to encounter the never-used-before SeismicToss Ludi.


    Good Luck with your team, and I hope this helped!! :)
  12. Huifao

    Huifao

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    30
    Thanks CedOmega! Yeah, you are completely right, I have had trouble with him, and although ditto can counter the strategy occasionally I don't have a great answer to him! I'll have a shot at that Rotom set, I have certainly thought about using it and it would certainly give me more attacking options. Also, on the Ludi, front, he's another pokemon I've considered butI've never seemed to be able to fit him on the team without amplifying some weaknesses! Which pokemon would you recommend to replace it? A d banks for taking the time to rate my team.
  13. youngjake93

    youngjake93

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
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    1,548
    Ludicolo actually ADDS defensive synergy to your team. It is weak to bug, poison and flying. You have a poison immunity, a poison resists, and 2 bug resists.
    It resists ground and you have 1 ground weak Pokemon with zero resists.
    That is of course, based on your main post. I've seen a lot of suggestions tossed around and idk if you've finalized any changes after them.
  14. Huifao

    Huifao

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    30
    Yes, that's quite true youngjake93. Well at the moment I am testing out using amoongus and skarmory over ferrothorn and jellicent, and running stealth rocks and heal bell on chansey without toxic and it seems to be working really well. I will be testing out the other suggestions and I did look at your suggestion of using a physically defensive Altaria but it wasn't really good enough despite being an interesting idea on your part. Which pokemon do you recommend replacing if I were to include a Ludicolo?
  15. CedOmega

    CedOmega

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Messages:
    217
    Ludicolo could work over either Jellicent or Ditto. Ditto would mean a big loss, so I highly recommend Ludicolo>Jellicent.
  16. Huifao

    Huifao

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
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    Okay, thanks CedOmega, I'll give it a shot!

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