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Rate My Team

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by LudwiG, Sep 8, 2012.

  1. LudwiG

    LudwiG

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    130
    I did not have a specific tactic or strategy planned for this team when I made it and playing with it haven't produced one. I started by choosing one pokémon I liked with a set I wanted to test and progressed from there. It have worked decently and had the most problems against sun teams, especially those with dugtrio.

    [​IMG]
    Meloetta @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Psychic
    - Heal Bell

    As a first pokémon, I decided to choose a specially bulky Meloetta. With max hp and max sp. def, it reaches 404 hp and 394 sp. def, which is slightly better than Umbreon. Even without offensive investment, its special offense is quite good and the speed isn't horrible. The main problem with a specially bulky Meloetta is the lack of recovery, I solved it by using restalk and heal bell. It's a set that I've wanted to try since generation 4 and Meloetta seems like the perfect pokémon for using it. When using sleep talk, there is a 1/3 chance of using heal bell and waking.
    My experience with this Meloetta tells me that it's good, no non-boosting special attacker seems to be able to defeat it. Psychic deals a lot of damage and restalk is sufficient recovery even if I am unlucky with the move picked. It's also worth noting that psychic have a 20% chance of lowering sp. def due to serene grace.
    The main problem with this set is pursuit trappers, but I haven't encountered a lot of those. Dark types setting up on it is also a problem, but usually not a big enough problem to lose the game because of it.

    [​IMG]
    Forretress (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Pain Split
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes

    I needed a physical wall to go with my special one. Forretress seemed like a decent choice, because of rapid spin and pain split. There is not a lot to write about this pokémon. It can switch in on physical moves, keep away hazards and stay healthy with pain split.
    I'm unsure about volt switch as the last move, but I don't know what to replace it with.

    [​IMG]
    Genesect @ Choice Band
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - U-turn
    - Flamethrower
    - Quick Attack
    - Zen Headbutt

    Having chosen two defensive pokémon, it seemed like the time to start with offense. Genesect is good at provoking switches, which go well with the spikes. I decided to use the choice band set because it seemed interesting and I hadn't tried it.
    The first three moves seem obvious to me and probably doesn't need explaining. Zen headbutt hits poison types (Gengar) and fighting types (Conkeldurr), but doesn't seem to get a lot of use, so I'm considering changing it to ice beam for gliscor.

    [​IMG]
    Heatran (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Overheat
    - Flamethrower
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Having two pokémon x4 weak to fire, I needed a flash fire pokémon. Heatran seemed like the best choice. My current team members were relatively slow, so a choice scarf set seemed good (note that forretress' rapid spin became important due to two choiced pokémon).
    STAB fire, earth power and hidden power ice are obvious coverage moves, but having two fire moves might need explaining. Overheat is the main move, dealing a lot of damage. However, it sometimes can't risk the 10% miss chance or have to use the fire STAB several times without switching, which motivates having a secondary STAB.

    [​IMG]
    Conkeldurr (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 100 HP / 156 Atk / 252 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bulk Up
    - Mach Punch
    - Drain Punch
    - Payback

    At this point, I didn't have a non-choiced offensive pokémon. I also didn't have a pokémon to set up and sweep. Conkeldurr therefore seemed to fit in well. I don't think that the ev spread is standard, nor did I put a lot of thought (i.e. no calcs) into it. Having a low base sp. def and using bulk up, ev's in sp. def were necessary. Putting ev's in hp would further increase the bulk, but drain punch would recover a smaller amount of hp percentage (not negating residual damage as effectively). Because of that, I decided to put some ev's into hp, but not all remaining. The rest were put into attack for more power and less reliance on bulk up for damage. The sp. def seemed high enough without the nature boost, so I increased the attack further by using an adamnt nature. (It's worth noting that Meloetta's heal bell can heal Conkeldurr's status and remove a guts boost, maybe iron fist should be used instead after its release?).

    [​IMG]
    Ditto @ Leftovers
    Trait: Imposter
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Transform

    I was unsure about what else the team needed, so I decided to use Ditto because I like it. It have worked well. The item differs from the standard set, I'm using leftovers instead of choice scarf. Choice scarf makes it a great revenge killer, but leftovers gives other opportunities, it can change move. The idea obviously isn't to switch in on a sweeper (although, this can be done for the 50% speed tie in an emergency), but rather to switch in on walls. I've successfully pp stalled both Gliscors (having a sub up when the opponent is forced to switch in a new pokémon and dealing some damage after pp stalling the gliscor) and a leech seeding Ludicolo. There are also a lot other pokémon that can be pp stalled by it, while Ditto usually have full health afterwards. The reason why pp stalling works is because it gets new pp every time it transform. If Ditto runs out of pp, switch to appropriate other pokémon and then back to Ditto. Other than pp stalling, it can set up stealth rocks, spread status and keep healthy by using the opponents moves.
    One scenario that is worth noting was when I switched it in against a choiced Chandelure that was stuck on a fire move. I used energy ball (it strangly didn't have shadow ball) the first turn while the opponent switched to ferrothorn. The opponent thought that the Ditto was scarfed due to the high percentage of scarfed Dittos and lost the ferrothorn to a fire blast.
    The iv's used are 31/30/30/31/31/31, which gives HP ice power 70.


    That's all I currently have to write about the team.
  2. PDC

    PDC don't you know my nigga bkc fucking kidnap kids?
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2010
    Messages:
    1,243
    Hi, and welcome to Smogon!

    First off you should slightly adjust Conkelldurr's spread to give it even more all around bulk and Special Defense. Just try out a spread of 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SDef to give Conkelldurr the strongest offensive potential on par with strong defenses. Conkelldurr already has high HP, and this set allows it to have decent SDef as well. For some other set nitpicks, I suggest trying out a slightly different Heatran set. Try out a Specially Defensive Heatran over your current set of Choice Scarf. Choice Scarf Heatran is not bad, but with Genesect on the team it seems a bit overshadowed. Genesect is one of the best Choice Scarf users in the game, and should be treated as such. Test out Choice Scarf on Genesect which gives you a solid blanket to revenge stuff like Dragonite, Gyarados, and Lucario with ease. Try out a spread of 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def Calm Heatran with Stealth Rock | Lava Plume | Toxic | Roar over your current spread. One final nitpick is using a different but more effective spread on your Forretress. 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SDef gives you a solid physical defensive stat, while giving you enough special bulk to take weak special attacks like Scalds. I also suggest running Gyro Ball over Pain Split to help defeat Terrakion and other fast set up threats. Adjusting you to a speed IV of 0 will help you get the most power possible out of this move.

    Now I notice how you have a problem with strong ground based attacks like Landorus - I and Landorus - T, along with stuff like LO Starmie and opposing Rotom-W. A Heatran can also be a very annoying Pokemon to face, especially more offensive Air Balloon varients. With Choice Scarf on Genesect, Ditto is easily the most replaceable member of the team. To handle ground type moves, Heatran, Rotom-W, and Life Orb Starmie with 1 Poke I suggest changing to Rotom-W over Ditto. With Rotom-W you can easily defeat enemy bulky waters along with Landorus - I and Landorus - T. This gives you a strong water resistance and ice resistance which every team needs.

    sets (open)

    Rotom-W @ Leftovers | Levitate
    112 HP / 252 SAtk / 144 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Volt Switch
    - Hydro Pump
    - Pain Split
    - Will-O-Wisp


    Good luck!
  3. Jirachee

    Jirachee Kaleidoscope
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,638
    Hi

    As you have no Water resist, Pokemon such as Choice Specs Politoed, Rotom-W, and Life Orb Starmie have a good chance at really roflstomping your team for good. While Ditto can turn into them and then resist the attack, be aware that Rain boosted Choice Specs Hydro Pump's power is incredible, and it will take down "Ditto" in two hits. Politoed in particular can really wreck that team. It has a ton of opportunities to switch in, such as on Heatran which can't damage it a lot, as well as Forretress. With the popularity of Rain and Drizzle Politoed in the current metagame, I think that it would be essential to fix that weakness. I think that your team could use a Gastrodon instead of Ditto. Gastrodon is the ultimate switch in to most Water types as it is immune to both Water and Electric and also takes neutral damage from Ice moves, which won't damage it that much thanks to its great bulk. Gastrodon can then proceed to fire off a couple of attacks to hurt stuff, but it's best used as a defensive pivot. I think that the support Gastrodon will provide to your team will be much more than what Ditto did, even though the Leftovers set is definetly interesting.

    I think that PDC's suggestions concerning Genesect and Heatran are great, and will definetly help your team a lot. I'll include a Genesect set in the hide tags since he didn't suggest one, in case you don't know what set to use.

    Anyway that's a pretty cool team with a very interesting Meloetta set n_n. Here are the sets you should use:
    Gastrodon and Genesect (open)

    [​IMG]
    Gastrodon @ Leftovers
    Storm Drain
    Calm
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
    ~Scald
    ~Ice Beam
    ~Toxic
    ~Recover

    [​IMG]
    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Download
    Naive
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    ~U-turn
    ~Thunderbolt
    ~Ice Beam
    ~Flamethrower


    Good luck!
  4. LudwiG

    LudwiG

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    130
    I like having a choice banded Genesect for the strong u-turn. It have been discussed a lot in the Genesect thread and most people have liked it. Having a +2 quick attack in the late game have saved me some times too. I will try the scarf set for a few battles. To keep the power of the u-turn, I'll try:
    set (open)
    Genesect @ choice scarf | Download
    252 atk / 252 spe / 6 SpA
    Naive nature
    - U-Turn
    - Flamethrower
    - Ice Beam
    - thunderbolt


    As for Heatran, I don't think that I have a use for another special wall, especially if I try the gastrodon suggested by Jirachi.

    I never had any troubles battling air balloon Heatrans. Meloetta can outstall them is necessary, but usually I break their balloon with Genesect's u-turn and defeat them with earth power from my, guaranteed faster, Heatran.

    Starmies and Rotoms are outstalled by Meloetta. Even if Starmie have recover to negate life orb, psychic deals enough damage to win the matchup, same goes for Rotom with pain split, but Meloetta won't have as much HP at the end of that matchup as against Starmie.

    Strong special ground type moves are not a problem, Meloetta take those surprisingly well, but I agree that strong physical ground moves might be a problem. Forretress can take those well enough (unless it's from something like choice banded Landorus - T) and stay healthy with pain split, but it doesn't have anything to retaliate with.

    I won't remove pain split from Forretress, it can stay in the battle a lot longer with such a mean of recovery and that's important because it's my only physically bulky pokémon. I'm using it more as a defensive pivot than something to set up hazards.

    I'll try the Conkeldurr spread and the Forretress spreads.

    A rain boosted choice specs hydro pump deals 61,88%-73,02% to Meloetta, which is impressive. The main reason why I haven't have problems with it is because of the unexpected power of a choice banded genesect, it have a 75% chance of OHKO against specs Politoed.

    I'll try the Gastrodon set, but I have one question about it: Why does it have to be specially bulky?

    One important problem now remains, what to do about Heatran?
  5. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude more dogebird
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,294
    Hey man nice looking team!


    Ok looking at your Meleotta any set with Psychic as the only attacking move is not really a good idea. Scizor and Tyranitar are both very high on the usage list and can just come in and destroy it with Pursuit. Not only that but it leaves you completely helpless to one of the most common types steel. Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Forretress will have no problem switching in and Spike stacking and your Meleotta will find itself not doing much back. A much better suggestion for a bulky Psychic-Type that can dish out damage is Calm Mind Reuniclus>Meleotta Calm Mind Reuniclus works great against stall teams due to it's ability to not take any resisdaul or hazard damage and its ability to set up on Blissey and beat it with Psyshock. It is also no slouch in versing Dark-Types because it has the powerful Focus Blast to help against Tyranitar switch-ins. He is more then capable of taking a hit much like Meleotta having 110/75/85 defense is quite good not to mention having a much more reliable form of recovery as apposed to Meleotta who relies on Rest. Reuniclus on the other hand can use Recover while still absorbing status due to Magic Gaurd. Another thing note worthy about Reuniclus is that it's special bulk increases while using Calm Mind whilst making it a much more dangerous special attacker then Meleotta due to the special attack boost.

    Other then that nice team and i second using scarf Genesect, Specially Defensive Heatran and Gastrodon. Good luck i hope i helped

    Sets
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Reuniclus @ Leftovers| Magic Gaurd
    Bold | 252 Hp / 4 SpA / 252 Def
    Calm Mind | Psyshock| Focus Blast| Recover

    Tl;dr
    Show Hide


    Reuniclus--->Meleotta



    ~Superpowerdude
  6. LudwiG

    LudwiG

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    130
    I am aware of Meloetta's weakness to pursuit, but it's performing too well for me to replace it. It also seem like pursuit have become a less common move, although it had a few matchups against scizor and tyranitar, it have never been hit by pursuit.
    Rest as recovery is not a problem at all. Having sleep talk, it can take sleep inducing moves that the opponent uses and it recovers more HP at the time. Being able to recover every turn is a benefit, but it's not enough to make it significantly superior. There is also the fact that heal bell is important support for the team.
    Meloetta can switch in and take hits well from special attackers from turn 1, Reuniclus can't. Meloetta have high enough special attack without boosting, it deals 40%-50% to a lot of the pokémon it's supposed to wall, while a lot of them only does 20%-35% in return.
    Ferrothorn, Skarmory or Forretress switching in and setting up is not a problem, I can directly go to my own Forretress.

    Why should I use a specially defensive Heatran together with a specially defensive Gastrodon and a specially defensive Meloetta while only having one physically defensive pokémon? That's very unbalanced.

    Edit: I decided to use yawn over toxic on Gastrodon. Does that have any vital consequences? Instead of Heatran, I am currently using a choice banded Arcanine as flash fire pokémon, it's likely only temporarily though.
  7. sandtyrant

    sandtyrant

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    6
    Specially defensive Meloetta is original(as CB Genesect), but I think that a Blissey could do Meloetta's work better. It can still work as a cleric, while having also access to decent offensive moves such as seismic toss, flamethrower and the always useful toxic, thunder wave and stealth rock. It has more bulk than Meloetta, taking better both physical and special hits with her sky-high HP stat, and could use softboiled for a fast recover.
    Try this:

    Blissey @ Leftovers
    Natural Cure
    Calm
    Evs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
    -Toxic / Thunder Wave
    -Softboiled
    -Aromatherapy / Stealth Rock
    -Seismic Toss / Flamethrower / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam

    This is the standard Blissey set, that can take both special and phisycal attacks. If you want more special bulk, you can maximize the HP stat, but I suggest not doing it, for the additional Def Evs are more useful, in my opinion.


    Don't use CB Arcanine, as I think Heatran fits better the role of Flash Fire user. Arcanine also has left you with just one special attacker(that is also a mixed one).

    If you don't want to use a Gastrodon to wall strong water types, I suggest you replacing Forretress with this Ferrothorn:

    Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
    Iron Barbs
    Relaxed
    Evs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
    -Power Whip
    -Protect / Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock
    -Leech Seed
    -Spikes

    I know that's the standard smogon set, but it works really well as a mixed wall, can easily support all your team and is a good teammate for the previous Blissey.

    I hope I helped you
  8. SomeDrunkRockLee

    SomeDrunkRockLee

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    180
    If pursuit does worry you, you mentioned Umbreon earlier, who is only slightly less bulky than Meleotta and still possesses heal bell, as well as wish/protect for healing both itself and others. While its attack is a bit of a let down, he will most likely have physical attackers switching into him, who will be hit hard by foul play. Umbreon would give you a different set of weaknesses, but heatran, forretress, and genesect can take bug attacks; no one on the team neccecarily wants to take a fighting attack, but you could also try Chandelure over Heatran/Arcanine, to get flash fire and hit like a tank off 140 special attack. He threatens scizor and the like out and can decimate many Pokemon with STAB overheat, fire blast, or shadow ball. Perhaps a choice specs/scarf variant? Since forretress can rapid spin, he can continue to switch in without losing health. Since he causes a fair amount of switches, a substitute and 3 attacks set might also work.

    If you don't choose to use gastrodon (since you probably do need a water resist) you could try Vaporeon over ditto, who can wish pass (in the event which you keep Meleotta, which I'm guessing you will- she's the team's base after all) and water absorb, as well as hit things with scald. You probably don't need another cleric, so in the last slot something like ice beam or hidden power fire could work better. Vaporeon also synergizes, and as a result, wish passes somewhat well with this team through its grass weakness; grass attacks aimed at it are absorbed by Heatran/Chandelure/Arcanine, Genesect, and Forretress. The electric weakness is more of a problem, but can be taken by Meleotta/Umbreon if need be.

    The sheer amount of steel types on your team is a bit unnerving. For instance, Magnezone can have a field day coming in to trap forretress and bringing it down to sturdy (or OHKOing) with hidden power fire before the volt switch. Also Genesect locked into anything not called flamethrower is a free switch in for Magnezone: While genesect can escape with U-Turn, it doesn't really do anything to Magnezone. Being locked into quick attack, zen headbutt, or ice beam all make you set up fodder for sub-charge beam Magnezone, or other variants can simply OHKO with hidden power fire. Scarf variants carrying hidden power ground can be a problem to Heatran too, since thunderbolt really does enough to Forretress (Not doing damage calcs, but I'm pretty sure its a OHKO) for Magnezone to check. You could try a shed-shell variant (of something, I don't know what could afford to forfeit its item), or otherwise try to reduce the number of steels on your team (such as Chandelure/Arcanine over Heatran).

    Good Luck with the team!
  9. LudwiG

    LudwiG

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    130
    Here's the team after changes:

    [​IMG]
    Meloetta @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Psychic
    - Heal Bell

    No changes here. I'm content with the performance of this pokémon.

    [​IMG]
    Forretress (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Pain Split
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes

    I changed the ev spread slightly. None of the moves are replaceable. Although I previously considered removing volt switch, I'm not anymore. Volt switch is my only electric type attack and thus I need to keep it to combat Gyarados.
    Shed shell is a tempting item, but it doesn't seem like it can afford replacing leftovers.

    [​IMG]
    Genesect @ Choice Band
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - U-turn
    - Flamethrower
    - Ice Beam
    - Quick Attack

    I used a choice scarf Genesect for a while, but changed it back to band after adding Chandelure. I didn't want to have two choice scarfed pokémon on the team and thought that Genesect does better without the scarf than Chandelure does due to its higher base speed. Zen headbutt proved to be useless, so I changed it to ice beam.

    [​IMG]
    Chandelure (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Overheat
    - Flamethrower
    - Shadow Ball
    - Energy Ball

    Not a lot to explain about this. It have three immunities and a good offense. I'm unsure about energy ball, something else might be better, but it's the only grass move on the team.

    [​IMG]
    Conkeldurr (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bulk Up
    - Mach Punch
    - Drain Punch
    - Payback

    Only a changed ev spread.

    [​IMG]
    Gastrodon (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Storm Drain
    EVs: 20 HP / 252 Def / 236 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Earth Power
    - Recover

    I ended up having to use Gastrodon against some physical attackers (i.e. Gliscors) and it turned out that it didn't have enough physical bulk. I did however not want to abandon all special bulk and therefore decided for a mixed bulky spread. I first maxed out the defense, then boosted the sp. def to the same level and put the rest into hp. I turned out that the hp was one point about a leftovers number so I transfered 4 ev's from hp to special defense for more efficient recovery.
    I'm using Gastrodon over Vaporeon because of the ground immunity. I didn't have an electric resist, so using Vaporeon seemed like a bad idea, especially since my team already was weak to Magnezone.
    I'm using earth power over toxic because Heatran was removed and I needed another pokémon to have a ground move. Maybe scald should be replaced?

    I haven't tried all of these changes yet and I'll write an update later if I find a problem.

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