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Raticate (Update) (QC 3/3) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Magcargo 2, Aug 2, 2013.

  1. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2
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    [​IMG]
    Original Analysis

    [Overview]

    <p>Raticate suffers from many horrendous flaws, which is why it gets the shaft in favor of other Normal-types such as Zangoose. Due to its mediocre bulk, Raticate is often hard-pressed to find a chance to switch in. While Raticate has an amazing ability in Guts, it is outclassed by nearly every Guts-using Pokemon in the tier, most of whom are either faster, more powerful, or bulkier than Raticate. To make matters worse, Raticate has a barren physical movepool, making it relatively easy to wall.</p>

    <p>Despite these flaws, Raticate still has several traits that make it worth using in the NU metagame. Its base 97 Speed is a blessing, as it allows Raticate to outpace common Pokemon such as Sawsbuck and Haunter. Raticate is the only Guts user which has access to Sucker Punch, allowing it to revenge kill Pokemon such as Kadabra, Choice Scarf Haunter, and Choice Scarf Gardevoir. Raticate also has access to both U-turn and Swords Dance, allowing it to function as either a scout or a sweeper. Although Raticate is largely outclassed by Zangoose and Swellow, its higher Speed and lack of a Stealth Rock weakness set it apart from these respective Guts users.</p>


    [SET]
    name: Guts
    move 1: Facade
    move 2: Sucker Punch
    move 3: U-turn
    move 4: Pursuit / Swords Dance
    item: Flame Orb / Toxic Orb
    ability: Guts
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Raticate's decent Attack and unique Speed make it a formidable Guts user. As with several other Guts users, Facade is Raticate's most powerful STAB move, with its whopping 210 Base Power allowing Raticate to break through walls such as Alomomola and Tangela after a Swords Dance boost. Sucker Punch is Raticate's main draw over other Guts users, as it allows Raticate to bypass Choice Scarf users that other Guts users have trouble with. U-turn is used to maintain momentum against counters such as Probopass. Pursuit is the preferred option in the final slot, as it allows Raticate to checkmate Pokemon such as Haunter. However, Swords Dance is an also option, as it is Raticate's only way of boosting its Attack and allows it to clean up against weakened teams. However, Raticate is extremely frail, meaning that it can only set up a Swords Dance if it forces a switch or takes advantage of foes using Protect, such as Alomomola and Lickilicky.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The choice between Flame Orb and Toxic Orb depends on the user. If you would like Raticate to act as a wallbreaker and stay in for longer, then Flame Orb is the better item, as it does not deal as much residual damage over time. However, if you prefer Raticate to act as a scout, switching in and out of the battle with U-turn, then Toxic Orb is the item of choice, as it deals less residual damage than Flame Orb in this situation. Crunch is a very usable option over Sucker Punch, as it allows Raticate to hit much of its Ghost-type prey reliably. However, its lack of priority makes it an inferior option overall. Reversal is an option, being Raticate's best way to hit Rock- and Steel-types. However, its unreliable damage output makes it an inferior option to the moves listed above. Taunt is an option on this set, as it cripples common walls such as Roselia and Probopass, but Raticate is too frail to use it effectively. Raticate can use Protect over either U-turn or Pursuit and Swords Dance to guarantee Guts activation, but it has little use outside of that.</p>

    <p>While not needed, dual screens support from Pokemon such as Gardevoir and Serperior can be useful, as it mitigates Raticate's pitiful bulk. Entry hazard support from Pokemon such as Golem, Roselia, and Garbodor is also recommended to increase Raticate's sweeping potential. For example, Pokemon such as Metang and Alomomola are 2HKOed by Facade after Stealth Rock and two layers of Spikes. These hazard setters also have good synergy with Raticate, with the first two resisting Raticate's Fighting-type weakness and the last being able to defeat Rock- and Steel-types such as Probopass. Choice Band Sawk is another good partner to remove Rock- and Steel-types from the match.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Raticate can use its alternate ability, Hustle, with a Choice Scarf to become a fast and powerful revenge killer. Unfortunately, Raticate is a rather unreliable revenge killer due to the accuracy-lowering effects of Hustle. Hone Claws can be used in tandem with Hustle to mitigate the accuracy issues, but at this point, you're better off using the Guts set with Swords Dance. Raticate can use Super Fang to halve the opponent's HP, but this is an extremely risky tactic, as nearly any move from the foe will OHKO Raticate. Finally, Raticate has an excellent special movepool, with moves such as Shadow Ball, Charge Beam, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, and Blizzard, but its mediocre Special Attack makes these moves all but useless.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Bulky Rock-types such as Regirock and Golem make excellent counters to Raticate, as apart from the rare Reversal they fear absolutely nothing and can OHKO with Stone Edge. Metang is a great counter, as it can withstand a Swords Dance boosted-Facade and OHKO in return with Meteor Mash. Ghost-types such as Misdreavus and Golurk can bypass Sucker Punch with a non-damaging move and stall Raticate out due to its status Orb, but they lose if Raticate is carrying Crunch. Alomomola and Tangela can stall out Raticate if it lacks Swords Dance. Common Pokemon that are able to withstand a Sucker Punch, such as Choice Scarf Primeape and Gurdurr, can easily revenge kill Raticate due to its low defenses. Preventing Raticate from switching in and getting a Guts boost by applying constant offensive pressure is a great way to stop it, as it is extremely weak without the Guts boost. However, this method will fail if Raticate is carrying Protect. Finally, if you lack defensive answers to Raticate, then it is best to capitalize on the fact that Raticate is usually put on a timer due to its status Orb, so packing entry hazards and priority users is a good way to keep it in check.</p>

    Show Hide
    [Overview]
    Show Hide

    • Despite its low stats, Raticate can be quite a threat if used correctly
    • Amazing ability in guts, boosting its mediocre attack to sky-high levels
    • Excellent base 97 speed, allowing it to outspeed key threats such as Primeape and Jynx
    • Atrocious defenses, meaning that any powerful attack will OHKO it
    • Outclassed by virtually every other Guts user in the tier
    [SET]
    name: Guts
    move 1: Facade
    move 2: Sucker Punch
    move 3: Swords Dance / U-Turn
    move 4: Reversal
    item: Flame Orb / Toxic Orb
    ability: Guts
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 Def

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Decent Guts abuser thanks to its high Speed and access to Sucker Punch
    • Like many other Guts abusers, Facade is Raticate's most powerful STAB move
    • Sucker Punch differentiates Raticate from other Guts abusers, as it prevents Raticate from being revenge killed by Choice Scarf Jynx
    • Swords Dance is the premier option in the third slot, as it boost Raticate's attack to Sky-high levels
    • However, U-turn can be used to gain momentum against foes such as Regirock,
    • Reversal is used in the last slot, as it is unfortunately Raticate's only way to hit Rock and Steel-types hard
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • EVs Maximize Attack and Speed
    • The choice between Flame Orb and Toxic Orb depends on whether you use Swords Dance or U-Turn respectively
    • Crunch can be used to reliably hit Ghost-types
    • Because Raticate is so frail, Dual Screens support from Gardevoir and Meganium is recommended
    • Golem is a good partner, as it can set up Stealth Rock, can threaten most Rock and Steel-types with a STAB Earthquake and allows Raticate to come in safely with Explosion
    • Choice Band Sawk is another good partner, as it annihilates most Rock and Steel-types with Close Combat, while also weakening many of Raticate's counters, allowing it to sweep late-game
    • Finally, pokemon that can set up Spikes, such as Scolipede and Garbodar, are good partners, as Stealth Rock and two layers of Spikes are required to 2HKO Metang with Facade
    [Other Options]
    • Hustle w/ Choice Scarf, but its low accuracy is a drawback
    • Hone Claws
    • Protect
    • Super Fang
    • Raticate has an amazing special movepool, but its low special attack means that it cannot abuse it
    [Checks and Counters]
    • Rock-types like Regirock do fairly well aganst Raticate, but if Raticate is at low health, they must watch out for Reversal
    • Metang, but a it gets 2HKOed by a +2 Facade after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes
    • Misdreavus can in on Raticate's Normal STAB and stall out poison/burn damage by not attacking, but it loses if Raticate has Crunch
    • Gurdurr can revenge kill the rat with Mach Punch
    • Choice Scarf Primeape and Sawk can also revenge kill Raticate
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2014
  2. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2
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    Alright, this is ready for QC checks.
  3. Raseri

    Raseri musharna fan
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    i dont like either of these sets. I really think a guts set should be the only one here. It is outclassed but at least its fast and has a few moves > ursaring. And stronger than Swellow. Both of these sets look really bad
    Alfalfa likes this.
  4. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2
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    I don't see the merits of using Guts over Hustle. Hustle gives you the exact same attack boost, but also allows you to use a more useful item, like the Choice Scarf.
    I may remove the SD set, but I really think that the Choice Scarf set should stay. It can outspeed and KO the 2 best Scarf users in tier and unlike several other Choice Scarf users, it has great power.
    Thoughts?
  5. Raseri

    Raseri musharna fan
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    scarf is even worse what does it even do

    hustle is also inaccurate and if im using a badmon like raticate i dont want to miss
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
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  6. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent Yeah, well. The Dude abides
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    The Guts set is not outclassed by Swellow, Ursaring, or Zangoose. Swellow lacks Swords Dance, Ursaring and Zangoose lack Rats ability to outspeed the 95 Speed tier. Furthermore, the Guts set can use Facade, which the Hustle one cannot, so you lose out on a massively powered STAB move, as well as gaining the miss chance
  7. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    I agree that the first set is just not good at all and the Scarf set doesn't look bad on paper, but in reality you're relying on a Pokemon whose moves are all 80% accurate in the role of revenge killing, which is not a good idea. About Raticate being outclassed by Ursaring thing, that was actually referring to Quick Feet Ursaring rather than Guts.

    252 Atk Ursaring Facade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 276-325 (78.63 - 92.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Guts Raticate Facade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 300-354 (85.47 - 100.85%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

    Raticate is still a little stronger, but Ursaring has Earthquake/Close Combat and more Speed which is pretty huge. The main thing on Raticate that I would emphasize is Sucker Punch as that allows it to not be revenge killed by Scarf Jynx (it can't even LK since you're already status'd) as well as outprioritize other Pokemon. U-turn as well is pretty useful for getting out of the way of a counter although it misses Ground/Fighting coverage badly. I'm not sure what move would go in the last slot though. Maybe Crunch? Since without Crunch you lose to Missy who can avoid Sucker Punch by just not attacking.

    Also one thing for certain that should not stay are the HP EVs on either set. There is literally no reason to use 16 HP EVs on it, it doesn't do anything for Raticate. Outspeeding Adamant Tauros (which 240 Spe does not do) and tying with other Raticates is much more important.
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  8. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2
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    Alright, I've removed both of the sets and replaced them with the Guts set.
  9. tennisace

    tennisace brock you like a hurricane
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    Put Crunch in AC of the Guts set, since its a reliable way to hit Missy / Sub Haunter (the latter which you conveniently outspeed).

    [​IMG]

    1/3
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  10. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist 40 more
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    Remove the Adamant slash. Raticate's base 97 Speed is one of the main reasons someone would use it and you need it to outspeed positive base 95s and adamant Tauros and the like. Since Guts is the main set, you don't need to mention Scarf Rat in CC in terms of Scarf Sawk/Primeape revenge killing it. For Misdreavus, mention that it can avoid Sucker Punch by not attacking, but loses to Crunch.

    qc 2/3
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  11. Raseri

    Raseri musharna fan
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    @Magcargo 2 how is this going? The 2 week deadline has passed (im not going to hard enforce it because its only Raticate). Please write this up soon, thanks.
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  12. Magcargo 2

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    Okay, I'll Write this up as soon as a am back from school.
  13. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2
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    After a long delay, this is finally written.
  14. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Overview:

    -"Its base 97 Speed is both a blessing and a curse, as it allows Raticate to outpace Jynx and Haunter, but makes it vulnerable to threats such as Charizard."

    • Base 97 Speed isn't really a curse even though Charizard outspeeds it. Just say that base 97 Speed is pretty good as it allows Raticate to outspeed an important Speed tier.
    Set Comments:
    -"Facade is Raticate's most powerful STAB, with a whooping 210 Base Power, and allows Raticate to break through walls such as Alomomola and Tangela."
    • Say that Raticate needs Swords Dance in order to break through Alomomola and Tangela.
    -"However, Raticate is extremely frail, meaning that it can only set up a Swords Dance if it forces a switch. T"
    • Mention that Swords Dance allows Raticate to punish Pokemon that use Protect, such as Alomomola, which frequently try to take advantage of the fact that Raticate is on a timer.
    Checks and Counters section:
    • "While Metang does get 2HKOed by a +2 Facade" -- Metang should be directly switching in, so this is irrelevant. Just say that Metang counters Raticate.
    • Alomomola and Tangela should be mentioned because they counter any Raticate set without Swords Dance. Special mention to Alomomola who can use Protect to stall out a weakened Raticate, which means Alomomola checks it pretty decently even if Raticate has Swords Dance.
    • Mention that preventing Raticate from setting up Guts in the first place is pretty easy provided it doesn't have Protect, and that without Guts, Raticate is very weak.
    • Mention that it is on a timer because of Toxic/Flame Orb, and that Stealth Rock, Spikes, Protect, and priority (especially because Raticate is so frail) help chip away at it even if your team doesn't have any natural defensive answers.

    Protect should get a slash in the third moveslot -- AC at the very least. Unlike Zangoose, who has Close Combat to threaten a lot of Pokemon even before setup, Raticate can't really force anything out besides extremely weakened Pokemon, so a free turn of setup is very useful, and will allow Raticate's performance to be more consistent overall. Before Guts, its strongest move is Facade. Another benefit of Protect is it allows Raticate to lower its HP down in order to KO Pokemon such as Regirock with Reversal.

    I would like QC's thoughts on Protect getting a slash in the main set before I stamp this. I understand the 3rd moveslot is already pretty crowded, but Protect is pretty important on Raticate, and I'd value it more than U-turn and maybe even Swords Dance.
    Detective Dell and Magcargo 2 like this.
  15. Magcargo 2

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    I have made all of your changes @DTC . I have decided to move Protect from OO to AC, but that can be changed if other QC members think that it needs a slash.
  16. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist 40 more
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    Is this still being worked on?

    The first sentence in the Overview is fluff since it doesn't tell us anything about how Raticate works in this metagame, so remove it and find a way to make the second sentence a good starting sentence. You can also merge those paragraphs together.

    For the Additional Comments, you forgot to mention the fact that hazards are needed to 2HKO Metang (though truthfully I feel like you need a better reason as 2 layers of Spikes AND Stealth Rock up just to 2HKO Metang is too idealistic for an analysis but I'll defer to the rest of QC for their opinions). If you are going to include it, you need to mention a KO it gets with just Stealth Rock or a layer of Spikes first. Get rid of the slash next to Additional Comments bracket as well.
  17. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2
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    I've implemented your recommended changes.
  18. WhiteDMist

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    I have my doubts about Reversal as a main move, I would prefer using U-turn against Rock and Steels and just smashing them with something like Sawk. I also feel like U-turn deserves to have the third slot to itself, it's one of the more significant perks of using Raticate over Ursaring and Zangoose. Swords Dance and Protect can be placed in the 4th slot in that order, SD distinguishes it from Swellow, but Protect can be invaluable for activating its Orb. Reversal can get a big mention in AC for all the reasons you have. @QC discuss please.
  19. Raseri

    Raseri musharna fan
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    Reversal sounds like a terrible idea. Make the set look like this instead please.

    [SET]
    name: Guts
    move 1: Facade
    move 2: Sucker Punch
    move 3: U-turn
    move 4: Pursuit / Swords Dance
    item: Flame Orb / Toxic Orb
    ability: Guts
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe


    This lets you outrun non Scarf Jynx and Haunter and Pursuit them. You Sucker Punch the scarfed ones easily, because they cant LK you. If they Trick you, you can take advantage of that later. Raticate has a unique speed tier, and doesn't need max speed at all.

    also add taunt to ac

    tennisace Treecko WhiteDMist Annoyer ebeast FLCL Dat Blast DTC Sweet Jesus thoughts on this set?
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2013
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  20. Hollywood

    Hollywood sometimes I think I was born backwards
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    sounds much better than the current one.
  21. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    I think that the set Raseri posted looks good, but I don't see the point in making the spread 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe over 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe. Even though Raticate itself is an uncommon Pokemon as it is, it'd rather be able to tie versus other Raticate than have an irrelevant extra 2 HP. Also 252 Spe Jolly outspeeds Adamant Tauros, which 240 Spe does not.

    For future reference to Magcargo2, the evs should listed in this format: HP / Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe
    DTC, Molk and TROP like this.
  22. Raseri

    Raseri musharna fan
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    oh if 252 jolly outruns adamant tauros, that's a good enough reason for me. Keep max speed then
  23. tennisace

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    sounds good to me
  24. Raseri

    Raseri musharna fan
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    You're missing a <p> and </p> tag in your skeleton.

    I'd also remove the bit about revenge killing Swellow, it has Quick Attack which goes before Sucker Punch. In the overview you kinda oversell Raticate a bit still. It's speed and lack of SR weakness is the only reason to use it over Zangoose / Swellow. Make that a bit more clear imo.

    There is also a lot of fluff in the analysis, the comment on the EV spread can be removed, since it is just max / max.

    There's also some typos, you cal it ratcate at one point. Fix this too!

    This is another useless sentence. Raticate doesn't appear that difficult to counter on paper, because the #1 used Pokemon Golurk is a great check to Raticate. Rock-types are all common and counter it. That should be removed imo.

    Remove the fluff and inaccuracys and I'll check this again The Loser Of RU
  25. Magcargo 2

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    Made the above changes.

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