1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Rating Basics

Discussion in 'Rating Activities' started by Jimbon, Dec 15, 2011.

  1. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Where's the soul in soldier on?
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,060
    Thank you Haunter and Expert Physics for your help. I will try to improve the best I can. Also, the author and I discussed, and decided that Scarfed Thundurus-T was a better option; it allows him to keep a Ground immunity, and hit Celebi harder than Jolteon.

    Before I post another rate, I will comment on Mylo Xyloto's rate-
    Latios is a great suggestion, but because the team is situated in an 'Uber' environment Soul Dew is definitely the preffered item choice for it, now that it's allowed. Also, giving the author an idea of who to replace with Latios is a good idea- so you don't leave him on the edge and confused. In this case, a good pokemon to replace Latios with would be Garchomp- Latios covers a lot of things Garchomp does, just on the other end of the spectrum. Garchomp also significantly raised his weakness to Kyogre; Latios helps with that. Nice job, overall!


    Now, time for my next rate:
    Here it is
    I think this is certainly one of my better rates; I felt that Terrakion really helped because of his massive weakness to Therians/Fast+Frail threats. I didn't mind letting some extra Scizor weakness slip in; Magnezone handles Scizor well, and Gliscor handles Mach Punch. I suggested SpDef Ttar because, with Scizor gone, he would need another trapper, and it also helped him with his Alakazam/Lati@s weakness.



    EDIT: Avatar Korra's rate:

    This is a pretty good rate; Latios is a fantastic idea however I think a better alternative to Landorus is actually Landorus-T, because of Intimidate. Sure, it doesn't outspeed +1 Salamence, however +0 Salamence can't OHKO with Outrage, and you OHKO with Stone Edge. Landorus-T also lessens his weakness to Mamoswine; who with Ice Shard/Superpower/Earthquake can 2HKO his entire team. Also, in your Cloyster, you added 4 EVs to SpA- though it didn't have any Special moves. Still, nice job! Keep up the good work!
  2. Avatar Korra

    Avatar Korra

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2012
    Messages:
    213
    Hey guys, I have two rates I'd appreciate to be evaluated.

    As OP of the team hasn't replied yet I just wanted to check and see if my rate was decent. His team was quite interesting with some unique sets and he had some specific limitations, so I tried my best to incorporate them (For example, he refused to remove Haxorus and Infernape, and doesn't like Calm Mind for some reason). Also I unfortunately have a habit of changing too much, I'm working on it. In this team, I ended up changing two Pokemon and one's entire moveset, not sure if that's acceptable...

    Here's the team: Infernrape - undefeated OU team

    My rate: Here



    This other rate is pretty old, however I want to know if I handled the situation correctly. The team seemed pretty weird, and although I acknowledged it was a theme team I couldn't really think of much to do without changing almost everything. OP ignored my response as well, so I wanted to know if my post wasn't helpful.

    This team.

    My rate
  3. Mylo Xyloto

    Mylo Xyloto

    Joined:
    May 12, 2012
    Messages:
    808
    Thank you for the advice. Just a typo you made on SDef Tar you suggested 252 Speed EV's
  4. Jimbon

    Jimbon FAKE TRAIN
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    498
    Hi Avatar Korra,

    Your rate is well thought out and you clearly explain to the OP what can cause his team some problems. One thing I liked about your rate was how quickly you addressed these problems and made him aware of how to fix said problems. From what I picked up, I saw that the OP was trying to base this team around a Haxorus sweep, as it does appear to be the only setup sweeper on his team. As a result, you will want to try to make changes that benefit the team, to the point where a Haxorus sweep is much easier than before. A simple change to help this would be to try Stealth Rock on Infernape, or replace Cloyster with Donphan / Forretress, who just like Cloyster can Spin and set up hazards, while also checking Dragons. On an offensive team such as this, Stealth Rock is essential especially when he has a Volt Turn combo with Scizor and Jolteon.

    I agree with your Landorus suggestion, as it benefits from increasingly common Sand Teams, while also revenging the mons that Haxorus has trouble with. It also provides him with great scouting with U-Turn, which would be even more effective should the OP choose to use a Pokemon with Stealth Rock. However, there was one thing I did disagree with on your rate. Changing Cloyster to a Shell Smash variant means that he loses his spinner. This is important because he is running an offensive team, and will be switching a lot to keep momentum. It also means that Toxic Spikes will not be removed from the field if his opponent sets them up. Toxic Spikes affects Jolteon and more importantly, his main sweeper Haxorus. It limits his setup opportunities and makes it harder for him to sweep, which is ultimately the goal of his team. Another setup sweeper also draws away from the main point of his team, to sweep with Haxorus. Sometimes when rating, less is more, you should always to limit the number of Pokemon changes to 2 at a maximum, but you should also take into account the purpose of the team before making a change. Every Pokemon in the team has a specific role to play, and replacing it / changing it's moveset affects the whole team as a result.

    As for your layout, it is pretty good. One thing I did notice was how long it was on the page. Like I said earlier, less is more, and making your rate compact makes it a lot easier for the OP to read. You may want to try putting your suggested sets in hide tags:

    [ HIDE=Choice Scarf Landorus ] insert set here [ /HIDE ]

    It was a very good effort and your suggestions were valid. You must always think of the effect of changing one element of a team, and the impact it has to decide whether a change is worth it. Don't be disheartened, this is just my two cents. Good luck, and keep rating!
  5. DestinyUnknown

    DestinyUnknown in other words...
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,511
    @Electrolyte: While you identified the Fighting-type problem of that team, you failed at fixing it, and probably even made it worse (since without Scizor he's even weaker to Terrakion and Virizion). What you should have suggested instead, is using Latias over either Lucario or Magnezone (running both of them is redundant on his team, unlike Tyranitar / Scizor / Lucario which isn't redundant at all). To help against Salamence and rain teams, the best change would have been suggesting a standard set on Gastrodon, instead of that Scarf set which, while original, it's very bad.

    While the effort is appreciated, you should focus more on identifying the threats to his team, and even more important, how to deal with them.
  6. Sayonara

    Sayonara don't forget

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    764
    Electrolyte - The user who posted the team clearly mentioned in his OP that rain teams were a problem, so a Tank Gastrodon would have been an easy way to help his team, as Storm Drain lets his team sponge Water moves with ease and can repeatedly do it thanks to Gastrodon's Recover. I dunno why you didn't notice his really weird Scarf Gastrodon set that would lead him to nowhere when you could easily have changed his set to a Tank variant to help against rain. A set consisting of Scald / Earthquake / Toxic / Recover, with an EV spread of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD, with Leftovers and a Sassy Nature would have been a good change, and this change doesn't compromise his team and is a good change overall because you don't have to replace a Pokemon in order to fix that problem. As DestinyUnknown pointed out, Magnezone really doesn't help his team much, as Lucario easily takes care of Steel-types, and Tyranitar's Fire Blast also helps. A CM Latias would have been a good fit, like DestinyUnknown said, in order to help deal immensely with rain. A set with Calm Mind / Recover / Refresh / Dragon Pulse and an EV spread of 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe + Leftovers and Timid Nature would have been good. Replacing Scizor is a horrible change in my opinion, it leaves his team even weaker to Terrakion, especially since he's using an offensive AcroBat set, on Gliscor, meaning he can't tank Stone Edges from Terrakion with ease anymore. Sorry for the lack of conciseness in this response. Keep rating - you're improving, but you still need to work a bit more on the content. Good luck.

    Avatar Korra - I'll rate your rate on Infernrape - undefeated OU team. When you suggest a set, in this case for Latios, I wouldn't give items a slash. In this case, you tell the user that he can either use an Expert Belt Latios or a Life Orb version, but both play really differently - the Expert Belt set tries to bluff the choice item to hopefully get rid of its main counters, while the Life Orb set is used to be a hard hitter in general. I don't really think that change is a good one, as it leaves his team even WEAKER to Rain teams, who can pretty much wreck his team if you use Latios. Rain teams are even a bigger problem with your Scarf Landorus suggestion. If he implements those suggestions, opponents like Politoed and Rotom-W can abuse Hydro Pump and none of his team members can switch-in comfortably. Removing Jolteon means he can't really deal with Rain as easily as before, as Jolteon was his main answer to rain and mainly the guy who would be problematic to opposing rain teams. I think a Scarf Rotom-W would have been a good suggestion over Jolteon, as it adds a second Rain resist to his team, and Rotom-W is a big menace to Rain like Jolteon was. It can also utilize Trick to cripple opponents like Ferrothorn and Blissey, in addition to being able to use Hydro Pump and being bulkier. Adding Rotom-W also adds a Ground, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes immunity to his team, and makes his team less Landorus-weak in general.
  7. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Where's the soul in soldier on?
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,060
    The reason why I didn't suggest a change in Gastrodon is because someone else already did, and I didn't want to seem like a broken record, but yeah that was a change that I would have made too. Avatar Korra also suggested Latias, which is why I didn't make that suggestion either. However, I totally agree with that idea.
    As for being weak to Fighting types, he has Gliscor, which handles Terrakion quite well; as well as Virizion without HP Ice.
  8. Sayonara

    Sayonara don't forget

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    764
    His Gliscor doesn't really handle Terrakion well, as he's using an AcroBat variant, and not a Defensive Gliscor. His Gliscor doesn't even have any source of recovery, meaning it can't take repeated hits. Also, all special Virizion carry Hidden Power Ice, and even physical variants tend to pack Hidden Power Ice as well.
  9. CrackinSkulls

    CrackinSkulls

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    208
    Hey i wanted to get a couple of my rates rated because i am fairly new to it but i'm trying become more contributing member.

    The first one is and OU team
    my rate is the 4th post.

    The second one was an ubers team (granted it wasn't the greatest team). My rate is the 5th post.

    Thanks guys
  10. Asek

    Asek Roll one for me
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    595
    After reading Harsha's rating guide, I decided to change my rating style slightly to recognize threats and try to only make changes that would not open his team up to other threats. I want to get some of these newer rates checked to see if I took that article right
    Rate 1
    Rate 2
    Rate 3 (I think this RMT was only posted to show off and flame at people but I attempted a small change anyway)
    Thanks
    And CrackinSkulls you should probably break your rates into separate paragraphs, instead of separate hide tags
  11. Jimbon

    Jimbon FAKE TRAIN
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    498
    No-one else has commented so far, so I think I'll help you guys out.

    Asek - Your rate was good, and you clearly explained to the OP that his team was weak to Mamoswine. I like how you helped his Mamoswine weakness without changing any members of his team. As an aspiring rater, you should always try to keep the team members the same, and limit the number of changes you make, unless there is a Pokemon that does the same job better than the Pokemon in question. While you managed to make his team less weak to Adamant Mamoswine, he still has some problems with Jolly variants. They outspeed Breloom and can hit you with faster priority, while hitting Heatran and Ferrothorn. Hippowdon, Salamence and Tentacruel are also hit hard by Mamoswine's dual STAB, as he really has nothing to switch in. A much easier suggestion would be to try out Gyro Ball > Protect on Ferrothorn, with 0 Speed IVs to maximise Gyro Ball's power. This gives him a pretty reliable answer to Mamoswine, while you could also suggest to run a little more defensive investment for extra insurance.

    One thing that also looks annoying for this guys team is variants of Sub Toxic Gliscor. It checks Salamence very well and if Heatran's Air Balloon is broken, then it can Toxic / Sub / Earthquake everything on his team. A simple solution would be to try out Hidden Power [Ice] over Hidden Power [Grass] on Heatran, as the only thing he misses out on is hitting things such as Quagsire and Gastrodon, who are dealt with easily enough by Ferrothorn. Little changes are often much more important than Pokemon changes, as each Pokemon in his team is there for a reason, and removing it takes something away from the team.

    Very good effort and great suggestions. It's nice to see you improving with your rates. I expect to see you rating consistently and to keep improving. Good luck rating man!

    CrackinSkulls - Your rate was decent and you made some good points, but there are some elements of your rate I disagreed with. I agree with the Air Balloon suggestion on Heatran, as it gives him a more reliable answer to Dragons instead of relying fully on Skarm or Forretress. It also helps him greatly against Sun Teams with Dugtrio, as it alleviates part of his weakness to Volcarona. However, I disagree with the suggestion of using Stealth Rock over Roar. Roar is essential on Heatran, as it allows the user to phase out Volcarona and Latias, two big threats to stall teams. It's also important because this is a stall team, and the team is based around stacking hazards to rack up damage. Replacing Protect with Stealth Rock seems like a much better decision, as if he chooses to run Air Balloon over Leftovers, Protect is less necessary for the extra health every turn that Leftovers would give.

    Of course there are alternative ways to help deal with said Special Attackers. Recommending a Specially Defensive Hippowdon is not a bad idea either, as it gives him an additional check to mons such as Latias and Volcarona, while Skarmory / Forretress already deals with the offensive threats such as Landorus and Scizor. Despite this, you did make some good suggestions. Wish on Blissey is a great idea, as it allows him to heal up Forretress who will be frequently switching in to Spin away hazards, and as Forretress lacks recovery, it will be hard to keep it around for longer. This is essential against opposing stall teams as your main focus will be stacking hazards.

    Another threat to his team is Calm Mind Reuinclus, who does not mind status and hazards due to Magic Guard and can easily Calm Mind / Recover on a lot of your team. A simple change to help this would be to try Taunt > Will-O-Wisp on Jellicent. Crippling physical attackers seems less important than being able to shut down Calm Mind Reuniclus with Taunt. It stops it from continuously spamming Calm Mind / Recover and essentially outstalling your team. Those that carry Psyshock look even more threatening as they can beat Blissey 1 on 1, however Taunt stops that altogether.

    Following what Asek said, breaking your points down into separate paragraphs rather than hide tags makes it a lot easier for the OP to read. They will clearly know what the problem is straight away, if you put it right in front of them. As for your damage calcs, the effort is appreciated but it is really unnecessary. Calcing every move really is not needed, when you can just simply say "Mamoswine 2HKOs your entire team". It could come off as slightly patronizing and as a rater, that is not the impression you want to give off. It's also very time consuming and a little redundant. As for your layout, it's decent, but like I said you don't need to put everything in hide tags. Personally, I think just putting your suggested sets into hide tags is enough, while you use separate paragraphs for each point. It's a lot more compact and easier to navigate, directly telling the OP what is wrong with the team. Uses of Bold are encouraged to point out important things to see, and makes your rate look more appealing.

    Please keep in mind this is just my opinion, but take these changes on board and remember them next time you rate. Good luck rating!
  12. DestinyUnknown

    DestinyUnknown in other words...
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,511
    I know he has Gliscor and all but I just referred about the fighting type weakness because you actually commented on your rate than he was, but you didn't give good suggestions to fix the outlined problem. If someone has already suggested something you agree with, you can just add to your rate that you support the suggestion made by another rater.
  13. CrackinSkulls

    CrackinSkulls

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    208
    Thanks for the rate Jimbon

    I was actually going to its just that I was unsure of whether it was a specific EV spread for anything. I asked him to expain them coz they were a little unorthadox.

    Really i always liked it when things were calc'd on my rmt's coz it is great for future reference and general knowledge in general. But whatever you say... I will stop.

    anyway thanks for the input it was very helpful.

    Also if I could get some rates on my ubers post it would be nice, also more rates in general. I really want to get some feedback so I know where to improve. Lets just say I wanna be the very best that no one ever was :3. Thanks for all the feedback in advance and thanks again Jimbon i really appreciate it.
  14. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Where's the soul in soldier on?
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,060
    Hopefully I fixed the fighting type problem better in some of these rates? :D

    Rate 1
    Rate 2
    Rate 3

    Thank you Expert Physics and Destiny Unknown for your help! I really appreciate it!
  15. San_Pellegrino

    San_Pellegrino the eternal dreamer
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2008
    Messages:
    1,594
    ok electrolyte:

    Rate 1 - spikes, sr, leech is illegal on ferro iirc, and in my opinion, gyro ball offers critical coverage on pokemon like Dragonite, especially when the defenses of his relatively frail team leans on the momentum of the ferrothorn pivot. I would've opted for a simple sr two attacks and leech seed. Also, whenever you want to suggest a move that is weak in the weather (you suggested heat wave on tornadus-t, i don't know if that was intentional or not) make sure you explain why it's a better option.

    Rate 2 - well done! although many raters already touched on key things, you offered a creative spin and explained why the options you suggested were preferable. on the explanatory side, make this your paragon for rating.

    Rate 3 - his trick room reuniclus is a standard set, meant to sweep late game. you definitely are thinking in the right direction with your changes, but don't be afraid to step up and suggest massive team overhauls. a confident rater is a successful rater. play the metagame some more and, to quote Stathakis on this, always look to create rates that will facilitate a more efficient execution of their team, and for teams that don't have that "win condition", build one for them. Some teams require big changes (rate 1 for sure) - I usually avoid those, but don't be adverse to making those changes when you have to.

    you're on your way man - hope i helped. sorry in advance if something i said metagame-wise was wrong. its probably because i haven't played in a few months haha.
  16. Sayonara

    Sayonara don't forget

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    764
    Leech Seed, Spikes and Stealth Rock on the same set is legal on Ferrothorn in BW2, by the way. Nice rates, Electrolyte, although on the 3rd rate, Psyshock is a bit useless since Blissey can't touch Reuniclus anyways while the latter keeps setting up Calm Mind. Psychic also lets Reuniclus defeat physical walls like Gliscor.
  17. King of Blades

    King of Blades

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    160
    Hey, I was planning to write an article about how knowing the rated team's purpose (Hyper Offense, semistall, full-out stall, that kind of stuff) is important to know when rating. It is my hope that it would hopefully be stickied in the RMT forum as a reference for team raters. Where would I put said article? Do I even have the authority to write said article?
  18. San_Pellegrino

    San_Pellegrino the eternal dreamer
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2008
    Messages:
    1,594
    king of blades, if you write it, it'd probably just be a smog article and most likely a revamp, since I've definitely seen team style articles before.

    talk with haunter about it.
  19. dadoux

    dadoux

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    471
  20. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,225
    Alright, guys, I wanted to quote a couple of things from San's post that I found extremely relevant and should be helpful for any aspiring rater.

    I know I said that you want to stick with as few changes as possible, but there is no guideline that says you can only change two Pokemon and three movesets or something -- to think so definitely won't make you a better rater. Please look at the team instead. Sometimes, it might require an EV spread change; sometimes it might require you to completely overhaul three Pokemon to improve it. This is all subjective to the team and the metagame, and there is no set-in-stone guideline to tell you what to change -- this depends on your understanding of the team.

    Definitely follow this and don't just cover up threats -- that's what a ton of people do when just starting and for the most part you're not helping anyone. Just make sure the team is solid and isn't wrecked by offensive or defensive threats and then move on!

    Also, remember that not every team will be Archive-worthy by the time you're done with it -- if it can be then definitely aim for that, but that's not very realistic. Just ensure that you have made the team run as smoothly as possible and that it isn't murdered by anything. Replacing too many Pokemon and turning it into a team it's not is not what we're trying to do, but rather making the main goal of the team we're rating easier is what we want to accomplish. Thanks for reading this if you did lol.

    @ King of Blades
    King of Blades, I think I made it pretty clear that you really need to know what you're working with in the How to Rate thread, but if you feel this needs to be emphasized more, do what San said and talk to the leaders of RMT.
  21. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Where's the soul in soldier on?
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,060
    Thank you San Pelligrino and Expert Physics again for your replies!

    Nice effort, but this rate lacks detail and doesn't really help the author of the thread. Taunt is not really used on Heatran much because Roar is a much better idea when vs Latias and you really shouldn't be staying in on Blisseys and Chanseys. Roar also allows you to phaze and cause the opponent to take even more hazard damage. Fire Blast isn't really a good option over Magma storm if you think the Heatran should be more devensive; Lava Plume is generally a stabler option because of its high chance to burn.
    Even if Heatran didn't carry SR, which it should have, SR is still not a good idea for Terrakion because it is banded. Because Heatran is more of a support pokemon, running Stealth Rock on Heatran makes more sense, so Terrakion doesn't waste valuable time setting rocks. Focus Blast isn't really a good move for Heatran either; it has low accuracy and doesn't hit many things Lava Plume doesn't.
    Also, if you think the author should change their set, it is highly recommended that you include the changes you think they should make, so they're not left hanging there, confused.

    Hope I helped!

    @Harsha: I will definitely take that into account. Thanks!
  22. dadoux

    dadoux

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    471
    FB = Fire blast...
    Taunt can help out against other things like SubDDNite, you can't roar all day, Latias can finish his team if it's the last mon, Taunt is more reliable than roar in this case.
    FB w/ sun does 31.9% - 37.5% to 252 hp / def bold blissey, and the only thing that they can do is Seismic toss who is a 4HKO ( 3HKO w/ SR ), and your faster so...

    And I didn't said to use an spD Tran, I said that he can put some evs in HP in order to take less damage from Tornadus-T's Hurricane. I saw a good number of mons like Scarftran with SR and Terrakion works pretty much the same way : Using a move and retreat, so putting SR is not that stupid. You need SR anyway, and with taunt, Tran's moveset is full.
  23. DestinyUnknown

    DestinyUnknown in other words...
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,511
    @Morpheus: while the Taunt suggestion was on the right direction about beating blissey/latias, it would have been better to suggest Toxic instead of taunt because Magma Storm traps the opponent which means that if you magma storm blissey and then you toxic it, heatran will be able to take down blissey, clearing the way for special sweepers. Toxic also helps with Volcarona.

    I think the problem with the rate was that you didn't think about what he really needed to improve to make his team work more effectively, so remember to always think "what his team is benefiting from this change" "is that team weaker against something after the change?" and "is there any better change than this one for this pokemon?"
  24. dadoux

    dadoux

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    471
    Toxic doesn't helps you against Latias with Sub / Refresh and he can easily recover the magma storm damage with wish / softboiled until it misses, so Taunt > Toxic imo.
  25. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,303
    I'm not sure how this works, but I rated a team a few days ago that I would like evaluated (to see what I am doing wrong, ect.)

    here


    this is the team: here

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)