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RBY/GSC Counters Project

Discussion in 'Archives' started by Max, Jan 19, 2008.

  1. Max

    Max yadig
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    I've noticed that a bunch of Smogon's RBY/GSC analyses are lacking in the Counters section. Many articles just list Pokemon that are considered counters, but don't actually go in-depth on how and why they're counters. It would be great if SCMS people could work on updating these sections.

    If any non-badged people want to help out, feel free to do so. Just post in this thread any suggestions you have.

    Example of what we want:
    Example of what we do not want:
    Thanks for reading.
  2. GreenPikachu

    GreenPikachu pumpkin pieco
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    I'll start on this tomorrow. im gonna have a harry potter movie marathon. by marathon i mean i'll probably fall asleep halfway through the first one, but who cares.


    edit: i'll start with rby and go straight through. i can probably knock that out in a day. gsc will be a bit longer though, so that should probably be split up among a few people.
  3. blackshellbowser

    blackshellbowser

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    Well here's one to start off...GSC Aerodactyl!

    Water Pokemon with a decent Defense score such as Suicune or even Slowbro can counter Aerodactyl effectively. Both take about 20% from STABed Hidden Powers, and can 2HKO with Surf.

    Skarmory can wall Aerodactyl provided it isn't carrying Fire Blast. If your opponent is using a Cursing Aerodactyl, then it can safely (again, provided it isn't carrying Fire Blast) Whirlwind it away.

    Aerodactyl has a rather low Defense score and Rock does not resist itself, so any Pokemon carrying Rock Slide such as Rhydon or even Machamp could 2HKO it. Watch out though, as more likely than not, they will have to take a super effective hit (or two!). Cursing Pokemon are decent choices too, though it is best if used against a Standard Aerodactyl.

    *End*
  4. GreenPikachu

    GreenPikachu pumpkin pieco
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    wow. while that is very ambitious of you bsb, i think it's a bit overkill. do we really need that much?

    also, i started on rby. im not going to quite the extent bsb is, but i'm using the rby golem that max posted as my rubric so to speak.
  5. blackshellbowser

    blackshellbowser

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    I'm sorry, I guess I'm use to reading all the D/P articles, hence why it's in a similar format.

    Anyway, what would you recommend to shorten it?
  6. GreenPikachu

    GreenPikachu pumpkin pieco
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    well, i mean, it's good. just very thorough. you can keep it the way it is, but for your own sake maybe you don't have to do that much for the rest, lol.

    but you don't have to repeat its bright spots. I mean that first little paragraph is expendable. i'd start with the suicune part. everything else is pretty pertinent though.
  7. makiri

    makiri My vast and supreme will shall be done!
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    Yeah I've done counters like that every time I rewrite an analysis (thats my Golem!), I'll be helping out with this on any Pokemon I never did. Also BSB if you notice Golem, it clumped together Pokemon that are similar, in your case Suicune and Slowbro could be put in the same paragraph and explained together as a whole, shortening the explanation but keeping the idea that they are both counters.
  8. blackshellbowser

    blackshellbowser

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    Thank you for the advice zerowing. I have shortened it considerably. Thanks again!
  9. COalex

    COalex

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    Some RBY counters:

    Dewgong:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/dewgong

    "Lapras and Starmie resist both of its STABs and can make short work of it with Thunderbolt. Zapdos and Jolteon pose a threat to Dewgong with their powerful electric attacks, while Chansey takes little damage from any of its moves. Venusuar and co can put Dewgong to sleep or decimate it with STAB Grass attacks as long as they watch out for Blizzard"

    Machamp:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/machamp

    "Alakazam, Starmie, Dragonite, and Zapdos can all switch in on Machamp, but an unlucky Body Slam paralysis can spell doom for all four of them. More foolproof counters include Exeggutor and Slowbro, who both take little damage from all of Machamp's attacks and can hit back hard. Articuno and Moltres are less-used but very viable counters for Machamp as long as they watch out for Rock Slide."

    Blastoise:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/blastoise

    "Zapdos and Jolteon have ample oppurtunity to switch in on Blastoise; with his mediocre Special, Blizzard is only a 3HKO on Zapdos. Lapras and Starmie resist both Surf and Ice Beam, although Starmie doesn't like getting hit with Body Slam. Venusuar is very rarely 2HKOd by Blizzard, but outspeeds Blastoise and carries a reliable sleep move as well as Razor Leaf.

    In UU, Electabuzz and Magneton give Blastoise loads of trouble with a STAB Thunderbolt. Golduck and Poliwrath can set up on Blastoise with Amnesia and take little damage from it's attacks."

    Butterfree:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/butterfree

    "Chansey loves switching in on a Stun Spore, and Exeggutor takes little from both of Butterfree's attacks. Really, anything not weak to Grass or Psychic will suffice.

    Specific UU counters include Tangela, who can threaten Stun Spore, and Fire types such as Arcanine, whose STAB Fire Blast sends Butterfree running"

    Cloyster
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/cloyster

    "Water types such as Starmie, Lapras, and Slowbro, resist both Clamp and Blizzard. Cloyster usually falls to special attackers that can hit it super effective, such as Jolteon, Venusuar, and Victrebell."

    Dugtrio:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/dugtrio

    "Starmie, and Slowbro are both bulky enough to take Dugtrio's hits and return STAB Surfs. Aerodactyl resists it's attacks, outspeeds it, and has no problem tearing through Dugtio's tissue-like defenses. Exeggutor perpetually walls Dugtio, being only 4HKOd by Slash."

    Fearow:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/fearow

    "Golem and Rhydon take nothing from it's attacks, as does Zapdos. Anything that can hit it with a super effective attack will make short work of Fearow.

    If you're playing in UU, Onix stops Fearow cold, and Marowak takes little from its attacks. Electabuzz, while not as easy to switch in due to Double-Edge, carries STAB Thunderbolt to fry Fearow."

    Flareon:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/flareon

    "Bulky waters such as Slowbro and Starmie can easily switch in on Flareon, and while Starmie doesn't like to be paralyzed, it loves to be burned. Golem and Rhydon also make good counters with their resistances. In UU, Omastar and Kabutops make short work of Flareon.

    Onix resists all of Flareon's moves, although although a Burn from Fire Blast will halve his already pitiful attack. Aerodactyl is the only other Rock type in UU, so he gets a special mention."

    Hitmonchan:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/hitmonchan

    "Hitmonchan can't do much to Gengar and his immunity to Normal and Fighting, but keep in mind that Seismic Toss can hit Ghost types in RBY. Exeggutor takes little damage from any of Hitmonchan's attacks, as does Slowbro. Zapdos, Alakazam, and Starmie are all stellar counters, but must beware of Body Slam.

    In UU, Butterfree has a quadruple resist to Fighting and can return a hit with a super effective Psychic. Tangela can paralyze Hitmonchan, and Golduck can set up on it."

    Lickitung:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/lickitung

    "Exeggutor and Machamp deal with Lickitung pretty easily. Golem and Rhydon, though weak to Earthquake, hardly fear Lickitung's pitiful 55 base Attack. Slowbro can easily set up on Lickitung.

    Taking UU into account, fighting types such as Hitmonlee and Primape make short work of Lickitung. Aerodactyl resists its attacks, although it hates an unlucky paralysis."

    Magneton:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/magneton

    "Golem and Rhydon take nothing at all from the Electric/Normal type combination Magneton uses, as does Onix if you're playing in UU. Chansey doesn't care about Thunderbolt and can Softboiled off Double-Edge damage while chipping away at Magneton with Ice Beam. Exeggutor resists Electric and has a high enough Defense to laugh at Double-Edge.

    Honorable mention goes to Tangela, who resists Thunderbolt and shrugs off Double-Edge."

    Mr. Mime:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/mr_mime

    "Exeggutor takes little from Mr. Mime's attacks, although it can't do much in return if Sleep Clause is already in effect. Chansey is more reliable in that she can fearlessly switch in and Thunder Wave Mr. Mime and Softboiled off any damage."

    Kingler:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/kingler

    "Gengar takes little from Surf and nothing from Body Slam, making him the best Kingler counter you can have. Exeggutor easily takes the Water attacks, and his defense allows him to shrug off a boosted Body Slam in order to get a Sleep Powder in. Venusaur can do the same thing, although his defenses aren't quite as steller.

    Kingler easily falls to special attacks, so Zapdos is a good switchin. Jolteon and Venusaur can all hit him for super effective damage with a STAB attack, and they outspeed him to boot.

    In UU, Tangela resists Water and can paralyze with Stun Spore or set up with Growth and Mega Drain. Golduck can Amnesia in its face, although it doesn't like Swords Danced Body Slams. Electabuzz can threaten with STAB Thunderbolt if you can get it in; ditto with Magneton."

    Nidoking:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/nidoking

    "Alakazam works well as a counter, as does Articuno. Blizzard is not enough to deter Exeggutor, who can force Nidoking to switch by threatening Psychic. Lapras and Starmie are able to fire off STAB Surfs at Nidoking, but have trouble switching in for fear of Thunder and Body Slam."

    Nidoqueen:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/nidoqueen

    "Exeggutor is not deterred by Blizzard, and can shoot STAB Psychics in Nidoqueens direction if she doesn't switch. Alakazam and Starmie both are good counters, though Starmie fears a super effective Thunder. Articuno can switch in on almost everything, as even Thunder is not enough to strike fear into its massive Special."

    Parasect:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/parasect

    "As long as Parasect isn't packing Stun Spore, Gengar has nothing to fear from the overgrown mushroom. Likewise, Moltres can use it to set up Agility for a Fire Spin sweep. Parasect is unbelievably frail when it comes to fire moves; Fire Blast from Arcanine, Charizard, or Ninetales can OHKO it. Lapras can deal huge amounts of damage with Blizzard, and Dodrio OHKOs with Drill Peck. Obviously, all counters on this list need to beware of Spore.

    In UU, Aerodactyl causes serious problems as do the Fire types previously mentioned."

    Pinsir:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/pinsir

    "Given the standard set, Pinsir has no way to damage Gengar, whose Thunderbolt makes short work of Pinsir. Exeggutor's good defense allows him the ability to switch in with impunity, and his high Special Attack gives him the ability to take down Pinsir with Psychic. Zapdos can switch in on anything, although Body Slam has an ugly chance of paralysis.

    Tangela doesn't fear anything Pinsir has, if you're looking for a UU counter. Arcanine can switch in and threaten with a STAB Fire Blast, but doesn't like getting paralyzed."

    Rapidash:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/rapidash

    "Starmie gets special mention for the ability to outspeed Rapidash before an Agility and nail it with Surf. Slowbro doesn't take much damage from any of Rapidash's attacks and can Amnesia up in it's face, while Alakazam can outspeed it and Recover when need be. Chansey can paralyze it, but an additional Agility will give it back it's speed.

    Golduck and Poliwrath take little from Rapidash's attacks and can set up on it with Amnesia. Vaporeon's 130 base HP and 110 base Special laugh at Rapidash's special moves and Surf can seriously damage it."

    Raticate:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/raticate

    "Gengar is a top-notch Raticate counter, but even he loses half his health on the switch - Super Fang affects Ghosts in RBY. Basically, whatever you switch in is going to have to sacrifice 50% to Super Fang, so the best option is just to hit it really hard with the pokemon you currently have in. Excellent are pokemon such as Starmie that get Recover; use it immediately after he Super Fangs or you'll be OHKOd by Hyper Beam.

    Porygon has Thunder Wave and Recover, but must beware a Hyper Beam after a Super Fang; it will without a doubt kill him. Tangela isn't killed and packs Stun Spore as well as possible recovery in the for of Mega Drain + Growth."

    Scyther:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/scyther

    "Gengar takes no damage from Scyther's astonishing array of Normal-typed moves. Likewise, Golem and Rhydon have a field day exploiting Scyther's lack of any move that can hit Rock types.

    Onix is basically a UU Rhydon in that he takes nothing from Scyther's attacks. Aerodactyl outspeeds and can hit Scyther with Double-Edge or Fire Blast."

    Seaking:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/seaking

    "Gengar takes no damage from Seaking's Normal moves, and hardly any more from Surf or Blizzard. Starmie and Lapras switch in easily and threaten with Thunderbolt. Zapdos hits Seaking for super effective damage and is only 3HKOd by Blizzard in return; Jolteon fares even better against Seaking's Surf. Grass types such as Venusaur are also good choices.

    Seaking ends up fighting a losing battle against UU mainstays such as Tangela, who can recover off Seaking's damage with Mega Drain, and Golduck, who can Amnesia up while taking little damage. Electabuzz and Magneton both force Seaking to run in fear of STAB Thunderbolt."

    Snorlax:
    http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/snorlax

    "Gengar fares well against Snorlaxes without Earthquake, while Cloyster's high Defense let him handle non-Amnesia Snorlax. Machamp and other fighting types make short work of Snorlax, but have to be wary of that 110 base attack as well as possible paralysis from Body Slam."

    If anybody ended up reading all that, congrats. I feel that the stuff near the top of this post wasn't as good as most of the stuff I wrote in the middle, but I can't say that I'm a good impartial judge when it comes to my own writing.
  10. GreenPikachu

    GreenPikachu pumpkin pieco
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    im already taking care of rby and have hit some of those pokemon already, but i'll use some of your stuff to help for others.
  11. blackshellbowser

    blackshellbowser

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    I made three more: Alakazam, Jynx and Steelix (all GSC).

    Alakazam:

    "Blissey and Snorlax present nightmares to Alakazam. Both have good HP and Special Defense Scores (though Blissey clearly outdoes Snorlax in both departments, taking at most 16% as opposed to 25% with Snorlax) and can fight back. Difference is, Blissey will most probably be relying on Toxic+Seismic Toss while Snorlax breaks Alakazam's brittle bones with Body Slam or Double Edge.

    Dark Pokemon in general fare well, being immune to Alakazam's most powerful attack. Houndoom, Tyranitar and Umbreon can take it on, with STABed Crunches coming from Houndoom and Tyranitar and Umbreon with Toxi-stalling.

    Water/Psychics such as Starmie are still usable, but run the risk of being 2-3HKOed by the faster Alakazam."

    Jynx:

    "Snorlax puts Jynx out of commisson. With an attack score of 308, Jynx might reconsider, especially since many Snorlax also have Sleep Talk, effectivly nulling both sets. Blissey, while having better defenses, runs into trouble since it usually doesn't have Sleep Talk and Nightmare shaves off its HP. Raikou also neturalizes Jynx, since it also runs Sleep Talk and can use Crunch for a 2-3HKO.

    Houndoom spells doom for Jynx, as it's typing is just what Jynx hates. Flamethrower will 2HKO and if you run the SleepTalker set, you have nothing (hopefully) to worry about. Tyranitar, while slower, can OHKO Jynx with STABed Rock Slides, or go for a 2-3HKO with Crunch. Umbreon might have problems, as it lacks power needed to KO Jynx and Jynx can Nightmare it away if it uses Rest, but it's high defenses allow for Toxi-stalling.

    Jynx can't boltbeam (unless for some odd reason it's using Hidden Power Electric), and as such, Starmie and Slowbro can resist Psychic and Ice Beam and throw STABbed Surfs at it (Slowbro can try physical moves too)."

    Steelix:

    "Steelix isn't Rhydon, whose high Attack hurts switch ins, so Suicune, Slowbro and Cloyster all can switch in on Earthquake and 2HKO with Surf. Starmie isn't as defensively oriented, but safely switches in, while taking at most 38% (easily Recover-able) and 2HKOing with Surf. Be wary of Explosions, as even Suicune takes between 72% and 85% from a non-Cursed Explosion.

    Exeggutor get's a nifty resistance to Earthquake, and Rock Slide is not STABed, so it can use Giga Drain safely. However, it won't be killing Steelix as quickly, thus putting it in danger of Explosion.

    A Defense score of 498 is godly, but Steelix has sub-par HP. As a result some Physical Pokemon put a dent in the Iron Snake, namely Marowak(64% Earthquake without a Swords Dance) and Machamp(45% with Cross Chop)."

    I'm quite busy for the next 15 hours, so I won't be posting anymore for a bit.
  12. COalex

    COalex

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    Oh, sorry, I didn't know you had already started working on the RBY pokemon.

    I'll start on some GSC ones I guess.
  13. Mekkah

    Mekkah watashi wa kirai every single one of you kisamas
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    Just a note: some of these are UU and need to be geared as such. For example, Seaking will hardly ever fight Zapdos in RBY.
  14. Great Sage

    Great Sage

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    Good to see you followed through on my recommendation, Max. :P

    Anyways, I'll be systematically working through some of these over time.
  15. COalex

    COalex

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    UU counters have been edited in.
  16. GreenPikachu

    GreenPikachu pumpkin pieco
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    almost done rby. i had a moment where i almost wet myself laughing when i read aerodactyl is a good counter to pidgeot "because it can rock slide it". how'd that slip through the cracks? haha.


    edit: also, coalex, i've been using some of your stuff. thanks.
  17. blackshellbowser

    blackshellbowser

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    two UU Waters for GSC:

    Blastoise:

    "Blastoise's HP is a little low for a tank. As a result, the OU metagame proves too powerful with Zapdos, Raikou and Jolteon knocking off over 50% HP.In UU, Raichu, Magneton and Electrode give some problems as well. Be careful of random Earthquakes or Mirror Coats though.

    If your opponent is running a Bulky Water set, feel free to bring in anything that resists Surf (Victreebel for UU, or even Lanturn for OU). Blastoise won't do a thing to it.

    The Resttalker set can be annoying at times, but as mentioned before, Blastoise's below average HP sets it up for quick 2-3HKOs from Electrics, and Blastoise isn't even that powerful to begin with."

    Kabutops

    "For OU, Venusaur and Exeggutor OHKO Kabutops, as it rarely, if ever, carries an Ice move (watch out for Hidden Power Bug when using Exeggutor). UU introduces Victreebel and Tangela as counters for Kabutops.

    Electric Pokemon are fine counters too, but watch out for Hidden Power Ground (especially Magneton), or Ancientpower if using Zapdos in OU.

    Bulky Waters take Kabutop's Ancientpowers and reply back with neutral, STABed Surfs hitting against a 278 Special Defense. Quagsire in particular resists the Rock Attacks fine, but Giga Drain will pose problems it. However, in OU Starmie and gang have nothing to worry about."

    Feel free to use it for whatever.
  18. GreenPikachu

    GreenPikachu pumpkin pieco
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    ok rby is all set. it can be cached. i have a feeling most of the lists that Max was referring to appear in GSC.

    also, i noticed there aren't any articles uploaded for rby right now. do we still have them around somewhere, or do we need new ones?
  19. COalex

    COalex

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    God GSC has so many sucky counter sections.

    GSC stuff:

    Aipom:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/aipom

    "Aipom is just begging for Rhydon, Steelix, and Donphan to come in and begin Cursing. Forretress can set up Spikes while taking minimal damage. Strong Fighting types such as Machamp can OHKO Aipom without fear of Counter, and Skarmory can Whirlwind away Aipom's attempts to Baton Pass."

    Arbok:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/arbok

    "Scizor and Forretress can set up on Arbok, who is powerless against their good defenses. Skarmory resists everything Arbok has, as does Aerodactyl. Despite Arbok's Earthquake, Rhydon and Golem both pose huge threats to it, and Donphan can just Curse up in its face."

    Ariados:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/ariados

    "Skarmory effortlessly foils any Spider Web strategies, although Disable can catch him off guard. You're probably best off just Drill Pecking the first turn. Rhydon, Donphan, and Steelix love to Curse up on Ariados, and can Roar away Spider Webs.

    Azumarill:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/azumarill

    "Suicune can Roar away any attempts to Belly Drum, although it does not like being hit with Return. Omastar resists Normal and takes little from Surf, and even Skarmory has no trouble with it, considering its base 50 Special Attack. Raikou and Zapdos can Rest off its weak hits and retaliate with STAB Thunderbolt."

    Beedrill:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/beedrill

    "Steel types such as Steelix, Forretress, and Skarmory all perpetually wall Beedrill. Rhydon sets up on it with Curse, and Suicune takes little damage from its attacks. Anything that knows a Rock, Fire, or Flying move makes a pretty good counter."

    Bellossom:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/bellossom

    "Arcanine absorbs Sleep Powder and knows Fire Blast to roast Bellossom. Zapdos likewise has Drill Peck and Sleep Talk. Steels such as Skarmory easily counter Bellossom's attacks, and Grass/Poison types like Victrebell and Venusaur can Sludge Bomb Bellossom."

    Butterfree:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/butterfree

    "Zapdos willingly takes the Sleep and hits back with STAB Drill Peck, and Arcanine does likewise with Fire Blast. Heal Bellers can nullify any of Butterfree's effectiveness, and any strong STAB or super effective attack sends Butterfree running."

    Corsola:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/corsola

    "Zapdos and Raikou can easily switch in and hit it with STAB Thunderbolts. Grass types such as Venusaur and Victrebell have Corsola's number with Giga Drain, Sleep Powder, or Leech Seed. Machamp and other Fighting types have little trouble switching into Corsola and can deal huge damage with Cross Chop."

    Dragonite:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/dragonite:

    "Suicune, Slowbro, and Starmie can all switch in and hit Dragonite with Ice Beam, but must watch out for Thunderbolt. Raikou can Rest off of Dragonite's attacks and even a neutral STAB Thunderbolt will deal tons of damage. Misdreavous has high enough Special Defense to take Dragonite's elemental attacks and a immunity to Fighting to take Dynamicpunch."

    Dunsparce:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/dunsparce

    "Rhydon resists Dunsparce's primary attacks (read: everything but the SunnyBeam set) and can Roar out the Curse variant. Snorlax can outdamage it if it comes down to a Curse war, as does Miltank."

    Electabuzz:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/electabuzz

    "Lanturn takes neutral damage from Thunderbolt and resists both the punches, and can paralyze Electabuzz with a timely Thunder Wave. Other Electrics such as Raikou can easily switch in on him, resisting Thunderbolt and not being hit Super Effective. Ice Punch and Cross Chop are Electabuzz's only out against Quagsire, who would delight in Earthquaking him."

    Electrode:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/electrode:

    "Blissey and Snorlax both take next to nothing from Thunderbolt, but have to watch out for Explosion. Exeggutor and Steelix wall it as long as it doesn't have Hidden Power Ice and Hidden Power Water, respectively. Raikou resists Thunderbolt and takes neutral damage from Hidden Power, and can just Rest off the Explosion."

    Espeon:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/espeon

    "Skarmory, Forretress, and Steelix are all wonderful counters as long as Espeon isn't packing Hidden Power Fire. Slowbro and Starmie are more foolproof counters, because Espeon hates to be paralyzed. Tyranitar and Houndoom are immune to Psychic and resist Hidden Power Fire, and can Pursuit it to death. Blissey and Snorlax take next to nothing from Espeon's Special-based movepool.

    Exeggutor:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/exeggutor

    "Houndoom resists its moves and can hit it with Crunch and Pursuit. Tyranitar also packs these two moves, but must be wary of Giga Drain on the switch. Skarmory and Forretress can pummel Eggy with Drill Peck and Hidden Power Bug respectively. Raikou and Zapdos can absorb the sleep and strike it with super effective moves."

    Fearow:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/fearow

    "Even with Hidden Power Ground, Rhydon, Steelix, and Golem effortlessly wall it. Skarmory is possibly the best counter, with resistances to both Flying and Normal. Gengar easily switches in on Normal attacks and threatens Thunderbolt, although damage from too many switches in on Hidden Power Ground or Drill Peck accumulates quickly. Raikou and Zapdos both resist Flying and can Rest off any damage while attacking with STAB Electric attacks."

    Feraligatr:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/feraligatr

    "Zapdos and Raikou can threaten STAB Thunderbolt and rest off any damage incurred on the switch, while Meganium walls Feraligatr whether or not it has Ice Beam. Venusaur outspeeds it and has both STAB Razor Leaf and Sleep Powder."

    Flareon:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/flareon

    "Bulky waters like Slowbro and Suicune easily wall Flareon and can hit it with STAB Surf. Rhydon and Golem get an easy switch in and set up Curses on Flareon. Aerodactyl outspeeds and carries Earthquake. Gengar can take Fire Blast and Return, but must watch out for Hidden Power Ground."

    Furret:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/furret

    "Skarmory and Steelix resist both of Furret's attacks and can phaze it at will. Steelix can set up its own Curses, as can Rhydon, before Roaring out Furret. Machamp sends Furret running with a super effective Cross Chop, and is bulky enough to take a couple of Returns should it miss."

    Girafarig:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/girafarig

    "Tyranitar and Houndoom love to switch in on a Psychic and nail it with Pursuit when it tries to switch out. Exeggutor resists its attacks but cannot do much in return besides Sleep Powder. Snorlax can set up Curse on Girafarig and easily take all of its attacks. Blissey, or anything with Thunder Wave can shut it down, although it can still Baton Pass its Speed boosts."

    Golduck:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/golduck

    "Zapdos and Raikou can Rest off its attacks and Thunderbolt it to death, while Starmie resists its attacks and can Thunderbolt it back in return. Ampharos has pretty sturdy defenses and is not afraid to take a Hypnosis and fire off Thunderbolts thanks to Sleep Talk. Gyarados carries Zap Cannon but doesn't like Hypnosis."

    Golem:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/golem

    "Skarmory doesn't fear any of Golem's attacks, although he can do little in return. Exeggutor handily resists Earthquake and carries Giga Drain to OHKO. Meganium, similarly, makes an excellent counter. Slowbro, Starmie, Suicune, and Quagsire have STAB Surf and can Rest off any damage."

    Granbull:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/granbull

    "Gengar and Misdreavous are immune to Return, and can easily handle it as long as they beware of Shadow Ball. Forretress sets up Spikes without fear, while Rhydon, Golem, Skarmory, and Steelix all take next to nothing from Granbull's STAB attacks."

    Gyarados:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/gyarados

    "Sleep Talking Electrics such as Ampharos, Raikou, and Zapdos, make excellent counters because of their powerful STAB Thunderbolts and ability to Rest off any damage Gyarados deals. Almost all variations of Porygon2 can handle Gyarados because of Thunderbolt and Recover."

    Houndoom:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/houndoom

    "Tyranitar makes a good switch in to Houndoom's array of Dark and Fire type moves, and can threaten to Earthquake or Rock Slide it if it trys to stay in. Suicune carries Surf and can Rest off damage from multiple switchings, as does Quagsire and Kingdra. Blissey can Thunder Wave or straight up attack it, and Snorlax can set up on it with Curse. Muk and Tentacruel both can switch in with their high Special Defense."

    Jolteon:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/jolteon

    Jolteon is tricky to counter because of Baton Pass; even if you switch in a counter, another pokemon still gets a free Substitute or Agility depending on what Jolteon has. Snorlax can force Jolteon to switch, and Blissey can nullify Agility with Thunder Wave as long as he doesn't try to pass to Marowak. Meganium resists his attacks and can hit him reasonably hard with Razor Leaf."

    Jynx:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/jynx

    "Snorlax can hit Jynx on its bad defensive side with Body Slam, and may carry Sleep Talk in order to shrug off Lovely Kiss. While Blissey doesn't like Lovely Kiss, she takes little damage from the rest of Jynx's attacks and has Thunder Wave. Slowbro, Starmie, and Houndoom resist both of her attacks, and Houndoom can Pursuit her if she tries to switch out. Tyranitar is immune to Psychic and may also carry Pursuit. Raikou has Sleep Talk and good Special Defense."

    Kangaskhan:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/kangaskhan

    "Normal resists in general give Kangaskhan fits. Steel and Rock types like Steelix, Skarmory, and Rhydon all handily resist Return, and can hit it back with STAB attacks. Special attackers generally stand a better chance because they don't care about how many Curses Kangaskhan has gotton, so Gengar is a good choice. Misdreavous can Perish Trap it if it chooses to stay in."

    Kingdra:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/kingdra

    "Slowbro, Exeggutor, and Starmie all resist Surf and take little from Double-Edge. Rest Talking Electrics like Zapdos and Raikou make good counters as they can shrug off any damage that Kingdra might deal. Snorlax can use Kingdra as setup fodder, since Double-Edge will do very little after a couple of Curses."

    Kingler:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/kingler

    "Zapdos and other Rest Talk Electrics match up well against Kingler, hitting it with STAB Thunderbolt. Venusaur and Exeggutor can deal with him handily, and most Normal resists work well against Kingler's non-existent physical movepool."

    Lanturn:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/lanturn

    "Snorlax and Blissey are probably the best counters, but most things with high Special Defense will do handily. Grass types like Venusaur and Exeggutor resist both of Lanturn's STABS."

    Lapras:
    http://www.smogon.com/gs/pokemon/lapras

    "Bulky Electric types such as Zapdos, Raikou, and Ampharos, make short work of Lapras. For a lesser-used option, Lanturn resists Surf and carries STAB Thunderbolt. Snorlax, Blissey, and other special walls take next to nothing from Lapras's attacks, bar the Curse set."
  20. Max

    Max yadig
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2007
    Messages:
    1,378
    I'm pretty sure we have them around, just not on the site.
  21. ryubahamut

    ryubahamut
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Messages:
    999
    just committed all of COAlex's changes from GSC.

    edit: also blackshellbowser's GSC changes except kabutops.
  22. X-Trader

    X-Trader

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2007
    Messages:
    4,991
    I might try one.
  23. blackshellbowser

    blackshellbowser

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    Messages:
    482
    Here's one more: GSC Tauros

    "Steel Pokemon can wall Tauros...if their names are Forretress and Skarmory. Skarmory is safe from Earthquake and Forretress takes at most 16%. If you are feeling confident, Steelix won't lose too much from an Earthquake (29% at worst).

    Aerodactyl has the Attack score to take on Tauros and it can "shrug" off STABed Double-Edges (27% at worst). Plus it's immune to Earthquake, which is a plus.

    If you are playing UU, then Omastar may be your best bet. He resists Double-Edge but runs the risk of being 3HKOed by Earthquake. However, it does have a powerful STABed Surf attack. Paralyzing Tauros will help a lot."
  24. Lil-P

    Lil-P

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    72
    Just a side note on BSB's Zam review for gsc, pursuit is not listed from either of the three dark pokemon, or at the most Tyranitar and Houndoom.

    And to contribute to the analysis, heres one for GSC Umbreon:

    Most things that physically set up, will normally have the upper hand on umbreon, especially if they resist Toxic. Heracross is probably the number one candidate for beating Umbreon, as it can Rest and Sleep Talk off those pesky Toxics, and hits hard with its STABed Megahorn. Machamp can also fair well against Umbreon, but it doesn't like being statused. Substituting "JoltWak" combo can eat Umbreon alive, as it cannot hope to break the substistute, and survive Marowaks, 999 attack Earthquake. If Umbreon happens to run Moonlight instead of rest, it will not like being statused.

    Please feel free to add anything I missed, and correct my grammar.

    On another note, I do not know if you already did Umbreon, I did not see it on this thread, so I assumed noone has done it.
  25. GreenPikachu

    GreenPikachu pumpkin pieco
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,445
    just bumping this. i'll start on gsc in a few days probably.

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