Gen 1 RBY Little Cup (Tradebacks)

Jellicent

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Ruiner of Alph
#1
The notable problem with RBY2k10's version is that they arbitrarily use impossible Pokemon in-game (all level-up and TM / HM moves are usable, but not tradebacks). For a true RBY LC metagame (i.e., playable in-cart and not limited to starters + Viridian City region friends), tradebacks are a necessity. This changes things quite a bit, though. For instance, Nidoran-M, which is LC UU in RBY2k10's version, would now have access to Lovely Kiss or Amnesia.

The main reason I bring this up is WreckDra's thread here. RBY2k10's version is not playable on the carts, so it wouldn't qualify for a new challenge option. That's why I'm proposing we craft our own using tradebacks.

SonicBoom and Dragon Rage are banned for obvious reasons. Wrap has also been banned due to its increase in power at Level 5 and the ease with which Dratini can single-handedly sweep teams with the attack.

Note that Clefairy, Pikachu, and Jigglypuff cannot be bred in GSC as they gained prevos. This means they'll miss out on most level-up moves (Quick Attack Pikachu) and all breeding moves (Sing Pikachu). It also means super-cutey Clefairy is unfortunately banned, as the lowest level you can obtain it in RBY or GSC is 6 ;-;

Finally, Speed tiers for reference:
19: Diglett, Voltorb
18: Abra, Meowth, Pikachu, Poliwag, Ponyta, Staryu
17: Doduo, Gastly, Magikarp
16: Charmander, Mankey, Rattata, Spearow, Tentacool, Vulpix
15: Eevee, Ekans, Goldeen, Growlithe, Horsea, Kabuto, Pidgey, Psyduck, Zubat
14: Bulbasaur, Caterpie, Dratini, Krabby, Magnemite, Nidoran-M, Seel, Venonat, Weedle
13: Bellsprout, Cubone, Drowzee, Exeggcute, Koffing, Machop, Nidoran-F, Omanyte, Sandshrew, Shellder, Squirtle
12: Grimer, Oddish, Paras, Rhyhorn
11: Geodude, Jigglypuff, Slowpoke

Anyone who wants to mess around with this meta, hit me up on PS for some battles.
 
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Jellicent

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Ruiner of Alph
#3
Cool, can you list the extra moves gained for each mon due to tradebacks?
Yeah, I plan on compiling at least notable moves for the viable things. Some moves aren't compatible with each other (Lovely Kiss + Amnesia Nidorans, Quick Attack + Low Kick Doduo, etc.), so I want to work out legalities as well when making the list. Probably gonna be a few days before I get around to that though :P
 

wishes

ghost
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#4


Diglett! After playing a few matches with Jellicent and Crystal_, I've seen just how powerful Diglett is. A powerful Earthquake is invaluable and it hurts a large majority of the tier. There's also the fact that Diglett is the fastest Pokemon in the tier, tied with Voltorb, which loses to Diglett itself. Screech is the icing on the cake, forcing switches and making its would-be counters not so great anymore. So, how do you counter such a threat? Well, Exeggcute of course! There are a few ways to check Diglett, but they have to worry about Screech. Exeggcute and Slowpoke seem to be great ways to stop it, though, once again, Screech forces them to take powerful hits. Diglett's high Critical Hit rate is excellent as well. Body Slam 2HKOes Exeggcute, as does Earthquake, while it only has to fear being put to Sleep or paralyzed (which is pretty big, admittedly). Slowpoke is eaten alive by Earthquake, so it has to not be hit by Screech to effectively check Diglett. Jellicent is using Slash, which is guaranteed to be a Critical Hit. I prefer Body Slam to paralyze both Exeggcute and Slowpoke so it's harder for them to come back in later on in the match, but both are viable options. This tier is developing and is extremely early, but Diglett is looking to be quite the threat!
 

NixHex

Doing just fine, here at the top of the world
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#8
Something that immediately comes to mind as a potential issue is Stat Experience; how do you plan on maxing it out for each mon? Check my thread here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stat-experience-training-in-rby-gsc.3467090/ (also lol at my attitude, how embarrassing). Pretty clear that fully training before level 5 is impossible. One way we can spin it is maxing out Vitamins (easy enough) + finding the maximum amount of Stat Exp you can gain past that won't bump you past level 5.

... Unless I'm missing something.

edit: Pokerus factors in as well, so at least we can get a little bit further.
 

Jellicent

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#10
Ended up doing that notable move list sooner than expected because I was curious. Note that anything marked Event is incompatible with anything marked Breeding. Event moves also make some level-up moves incompatible (aka, don't bother with Low Kick Doduo x.x), which I've marked. I've also noted breeding moves that aren't compatible. Obviously the mons learn a lot more moves than this, but I just grabbed things I thought were possibly noteworthy (not counting Substitute and Rest, which everything listed here can learn). Most things that list Blizzard can also learn Ice Beam, for instance, but Blizzard is usually preferred anyway.
Abra: Psychic, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, ThunderPunch, Thunder Wave, Reflect, Light Screen (Breeding), Seismic Toss

Bellsprout: Wrap, Razor Leaf, Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Swords Dance, Double-Edge

Bulbasaur: Razor Leaf, Sleep Powder, Growth, Body Slam, Swords Dance, Light Screen (Breeding), Double-Edge

Charmander: Flamethrower, Slash, Fire Spin, Rock Slide (Breeding), Swords Dance, Body Slam, Seismic Toss

Cubone: Bonemerang, Blizzard, Earthquake, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Fire Blast, Thunderpunch, Rock Slide (Breeding), Swords Dance (Breeding, compatible with RS)

Diglett: Slash, Body Slam, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Screech (Breeding)

Doduo: Drill Peck, Body Slam, Agility, Low Kick (Event, not compatible with Drill Peck or Agility), Quick Attack (Breeding), Supersonic (Breeding, not compatible with QA), Haze (Breeding, compatible with Supersonic)

Dratini: Wrap, Hyper Beam, Blizzard, Agility, Thunder Wave, Body Slam, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Surf, Fire Blast, Hydro Pump (Event, incompatible with Agility), Light Screen (Breeding), Supersonic (Breeding)

Drowzee: Hypnosis, Psychic, Thunder Wave, Amnesia (Event), Thunderpunch, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Seismic Toss, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Light Screen (Breeding)

Eevee: Quick Attack, Body Slam, Double-Edge

Ekans: Wrap, Body Slam, Earthquake, Glare, Giga Drain, Acid, Rock Slide, Double-Edge, Haze

Exeggcute: Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Psychic, Explosion, Double-Edge, Mega Drain (Breeding), Reflect

Gastly: Hypnosis, Explosion, Psychic, Thunderbolt, Mega Drain, Haze (Breeding)

Geodude: Earthquake, Rock Slide, Explosion, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Flamethrower, Fire Blast

Goldeen: Surf, Agility, Blizzard, Double-Edge, Hydro Pump (Breeding), Swords Dance (Event, incompatible with Hydro Pump and Agility), Haze (Breeding)

Grimer: Body Slam, Explosion, Sludge, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Fire Blast, Mega Drain, Ice Punch, Flamethrower, Haze (Breeding)

Growlithe: Body Slam, Flamethrower, Agility, Fire Blast, Fire Spin (Breeding), Reflect

Horsea: Hydro Pump, Surf, Agility, Blizzard, Double-Edge, Haze (Event, incompatible with Hydro Pump and Agility)

Jigglypuff: Body Slam, Sing, Double-Edge, Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt, Blizzard, Thunder, Psychic, Seismic Toss

Kabuto: Hydro Pump, Surf, Body Slam, Blizzard, Double-Edge, Reflect, Mega Drain, Rock Throw (Event, incompatible with Hydro Pump)

Koffing: Explosion, Sludge, Haze, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Fire Blast, Psybeam (Breeding)

Krabby: Crabhammer, Surf, Blizzard, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Swords Dance, Amnesia (Breeding), Haze (Breeding, not compatible with Amnesia)

Machop: Submission, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Fire Blast, Seismic Toss, Ice Punch, Thunderpunch, Flamethrower, Light Screen (Breeding)

Magnemite: Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Double-Edge, Agility (Event)

Mankey: Submission, Body Slam, Rock Slide, Double-Edge, Seismic Toss, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Ice Punch, Fire Punch

Meowth: Slash, Hypnosis (Breeding), Body Slam, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Bubblebeam, Double-Edge

Nidoran-F: Lovely Kiss (Event, incompatible with Double Kick), Body Slam, Double-Edge, Double Kick, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Blizzard, Reflect, Counter (Breeding), Supersonic (Breeding, compatible with Counter)

Nidoran-M: Lovely Kiss (Event, incompatible with Double Kick), Body Slam, Double-Edge, Double Kick, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Blizzard, Reflect, Counter (Breeding), Supersonic (Breeding, compatible with Counter), Amnesia (Breeding, compatible with Counter but not Supersonic)

Oddish: Mega Drain, Swords Dance, Double-Edge, Acid, Reflect, Razor Leaf (Breeding)

Omanyte: Hydro Pump, Surf, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Blizzard, Reflect, Rock Throw (Event, incompatible with Hydro Pump), Supersonic (Breeding), Haze (Breeding, not compatible with Supersonic)

Paras: Spore, Stun Spore, Mega Drain, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Reflect, Counter (Breeding), Screech (Breeding, not compatible with Counter), Light Screen (Breeding, not compatible with Counter or Screech)

Pidgey: Quick Attack, Double-Edge, Wing Attack, Reflect, Agility

Pikachu: Agility, Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Surf, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Submission, Reflect

Poliwag: Amnesia, Growth, Hydro Pump, Surf, Hypnosis, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Blizzard, Psychic, Haze (Breeding), Lovely Kiss (Event, incompatible with Amnesia, Hydro Pump, and Hypnosis)

Ponyta: Agility, Fire Spin, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Fire Blast, Hypnosis (Breeding), Quick Attack (Breeding, not compatible with Hypnosis), Double Kick (Breeding, compatible with Quick Attack, not compatible with Hypnosis), Flamethrower, Low Kick (Event, incompatible with Agility and Fire Spin)

Psyduck: Amnesia, Hydro Pump, Surf, Blizzard, Submission, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Seismic Toss, Hypnosis (Breeding), Psychic (Breeding, not compatible with Hypnosis)

Rattata: Quick Attack, Super Fang, Hyper Fang, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Blizzard, Thuderbolt, Thunder, Screech (Breeding)

Rhyhorn: Earthquake, Rock Slide, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Blizzard, Fire Blast, Counter (Breeding)

Sandshrew: Slash, Swords Dance, Earthquake, Body Slam, Rock Slide, Double-Edge, Submission, Seismic Toss, Counter (Breeding)

Shellder: Clamp, Double-Edge, Blizzard, Surf, Explosion, Screech (Breeding)

Slowpoke: Amnesia, Psychic, Body Slam, Surf, Blizzard, Double-Edge, Fire Blast, Reflect, Flamethrower

Spearow: Drill Peck, Agility, Double-Edge, Quick Attack (Breeding)

Squirtle: Hyrdo Pump, Surf, Blizzard, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Reflect, Submission, Counter, Seismic Toss, Confusion (Breeding), Haze (Breeding, not compatible with Confusion)

Staryu: Hydro Pump, Surf, Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Blizzard, Recover, Psychic, Reflect, Light Screen, Supersonic (Breeding)

Tentacool: Wrap, Hydro Pump, Surf, Double-Edge, Swords Dance, Blizzard, Mega Drain, Supersonic, Acid, Haze (Breeding)

Venonate: Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Psychic, Mega Drain, Leech Life, Reflect, Supersonic, Screech (Breeding)

Voltorb: Explosion, Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Light Screen, Reflect, Screech, Take Down, Agility (Event, incompatible with Explosion, Light Screen, and Screech)

Vulpix: Quick Attack, Fire Spin, Flamethrower, Body Slam, Fire Blast, Double-Edge, Confuse Ray, Hypnosis (Breeding)

Zubat: Double-Edge, Confuse Ray, Wing Attack, Leech Life, Mega Drain, Haze, Quick Attack (Breeding)

That's everything except Caterpie, Weedle, and Magikarp. If you notice anything wrong here, let me know.
 
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Jellicent

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Ruiner of Alph
#11
After playing quite a few games today, I have to say, Dratini is ridiculous in this meta. Diglett, probably the second-best mon in the tier, is an open invitation for a Dratini sweep after it KOes something. Even a crit EQ won't KO Dratini, so it can Agility safely and go to town with Wrap. Hyper Beam and Blizzard allow it to clean up threats quite nicely, only really fearing Gastly. Even then, Blizzard is a 3HKO, so Gastly's only chance is to either Hypnosis it if sleep clause isn't active + go for the kill with 2-3 Psychics or Explode and hope Dratini didn't just switch out instead. You pretty much just have to bank on misses, full paralyses if you para'd it, or Gastly to take it down. I'm starting to think Wrap might need to go.

Other than that, a quick look at some of the other noteworthy mons:

Diglett - This guy outspeeds everything (well, it ties with Voltorb, but that can only Explode against it.) It shouldn't really switch in unless you're sure the opponents gonna use an Electric move or switch, but it revenge kills like no other. Not much really wants to switch into it, either. Exeggcute is the best bet, followed by Slowpoke. The Dratini problem is the biggest drawback to this thing. If Wrap gets removed, however, it'll be truly amazing.

Abra - I've been using Psychic / ThunderPunch / Ice Punch / Thunder Wave on this thing. Paralysis is great in this meta, and Abra's one of the best at spreading the status around. The elemental punches provide pseudo-BlizzBolt coverage, while STAB Psychic is just a great attack. 20 Special is incredible, and that 18 Speed is fantastic as well.

Staryu - Plays a lot like Abra #2. Only 16 Special, but it actually gets BlizzBolt as well as STAB Surf. TWave and Psychic are your best options for the last slot. It throws around TWave more freely than Abra, since it safely beats Diglett and Rhyhorn if they're crazy enough to switch in to absorb it.

Gastly - Love this thing. Hypnosis misses are way too common, but it's still a great move to have on hand. Psychic + Thunderbolt offer pretty good coverage, only really missing out on Eggy. Explosion is a great safety button to have around as well, while Gastly itself is the best fallback to predicted booms. 17 Speed is a curse and a blessing (slower than Diglett, Abra, and Staryu but faster than most of the tier), but Gastly matches up quite well against most Pokemon and has a great niche thanks to its Ghost typing.

Exeggcute - This is the best switch-in to Diglett, and it can actually paralyze it with Stun Spore, which is usually enough to scare it off and catch something else with a para instead. Explosion, Psychic, Sleep Powder, and Mega Drain are the other moves to watch out for. It's just an all-around great support Pokemon.

Voltorb - Ties with Diglett as fastest thing around. This is stopped dead in its tracks by Rhyhorn, who can tank an Explosion and is immune to TWave + Tbolt. Speed, Explosion, and a stronger Thunderbolt are its niche over Pikachu.

Pikachu - Overall, it's more threatening than Voltorb imo. Surf is enough to scare off Rhyhorn and also means Diglett won't be switching in freely, which in turn makes it better at throwing around Thunder Wave. It actually has a decent Body Slam with 15 Attack.

Slowpoke - Amnesia makes this thing quite scary. It can also survive 2 Diglett EQs if they don't crit, meaning it can switch in and either go for the kill or set up on the predicted switch. On top of Surf, Blizzard, and Psychic, Slowpoke has a nice 16 Attack that allows it to go mixed.

Poliwag - Think of it as Staryu + sleep - TWave and Thunderbolt. It can set up with Amnesia, but that's better off with Slowpoke. It does have access to sleep and better Speed to ensure setup; keep in mind you'll need Hypnosis if going Amnesia, while it can roll with Lovely Kiss if just going for 3 attacks + sleep.

Ponyta - Kind of like a worse Dratini. It gets Fire Spin and Agility, which looks nice, but lacks the power of Hyper Beam or Blizzard, instead having to fall back on Double-Edge / Body Slam or Fire Blast / Flamethrower to clean up. Mostly notable for Hypnosis. If not going with AgiliSpin, you can run Hypnosis + Fire Blast with 2 of Double Kick, Quick Attack, and Body Slam.

Rhyhorn - While it lacks Explosion like Geodude, the added bulk and power are worth it imo. It also gets BlizzBolt coverage weirdly, which can be a nice surprise. EQ / Body Slam / Blizzard / RS, Thunderbolt, or Sub is probably the best bet here.

Doduo - EQ immunity and priority STAB Quick Attack is kind of nice, as it can switch in against Diglett's EQ and actually win consistently. Rhyhorn hard walls it, though. Drill Peck and Body Slam are pretty solid against non-Rocks. Sadly BlizzBolt is common at and above its Speed bracket, with Voltorb, Pikachu, and usually Staryu and Gastly OHKOing it.

Probably forgetting something else, but it's like 2 AM and I'm tired.
 
#12
I was always under the impression that Wrap was always banned in LC because it is so much more ridiculous in this environment, I was kinda surprised you guys are trying a meta with it
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
#13
I was always under the impression that Wrap was always banned in LC because it is so much more ridiculous in this environment, I was kinda surprised you guys are trying a meta with it
well without tradebacks you either played without wrap, or with wrap and a dratini ban [which in that meta ponyta improved somewhat].. I legit dunno how much is changed w/ tradebacks though
 

Jellicent

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Ruiner of Alph
#14
Winning with Wrap is insanely easy. Dratini can tear teams apart once it sets up, and their only hope is misses (or full paras if the Dratini user let it get para'd). It doesn't require any team support to get its job done, either. There are no counters outside of luck and Gastly, and no reason not to run it on every team. Games seriously come down to who can get Dratini setting up safely first too often.

I've yet to battle anyone that thinks it's not busted in this metagame. Dratini's the only one that really breaks things, so it's arguably as deserving of a ban as Wrap. That said, Wrap brings nothing good to the table while Dratini at least makes a decent sweeper even with Wrap removed. Unlike in OU, Wrap doesn't even add variety to the metagame. Instead, Dratini is a no-brainer addition for all teams and Gastly is basically mandatory. Everything else besides Diglett (essential revenge killer and late-game cleaner) has to somehow threaten Dratini by KOing or at least paralyzing it should it set up and miss, reducing the pool of viable Pokemon significantly.

If no one objects in the next few days, I'll be banning the move.
 

Jellicent

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Ruiner of Alph
#15
Since no one objects, Wrap is now banned. Fire Spin, Clamp, and Bind will remain legal for now.

I'm mostly hesitant about Fire Spin + Agility Ponyta, which in theory can pull off a similar assault. Unlike Dratini, however, it can't safely set up against any common threats. Diglett, Staryu, Rhyhorn, Slowpoke, Poliwag, and Shellder can all OHKO; Abra, Pikachu, and Dratini can all para + 2HKO; Egg can sleep, para, or boom; Gastly can sleep or boom; Voltorb can para or boom; Doduo has a 30% chance to para with Body Slam, which is a 2HKO to boot; Meowth is similar but can also Hypnosis. Once paralyzed, Ponyta's looking at a 47.5% chance to fp or miss, which is why the threat of para is an unsafe setup.

It certainly looks much more manageable, but the fact that only two Pokemon naturally outspeed it means it's more threatening without setup. Hypnosis is also noteworthy, despite the poor accuracy. Time will tell if it's also overpowered.

Time to build some new teams I guess...
 
#16
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gccJ8nxGdHBWz7ItOeoUbeCpzTavfqh7uyV7WZIobMc/edit?usp=sharing

Hi! So I've compiled a list of all moves Gen 1 LC mons can only obtain from G/S/C. Hopefully this helps a bit in telling the difference between tradebacks. If there's anything I missed/got incorrect, please let me know.

On a side note, I think all trapping moves should be banned. Due to the amount of HP Pokemon at level 5 have, Pokemon like the aforementioned Agility + Fire Spin Ponyta can absolutely eat up everything that does not resist it. I'd like a second party's opinion on this but as it stands I believe this needs to be banned at the moment.

I also believe that Abra should be banned - the sheer coverage it obtains from tradebacks leaves it hard to check - only being able to be checked by Pokemon like Exeggcute and Diglett, and the latter can only come in on a revenge kill. It's incredibly hard to check which makes me think that it should also get the hammer.