Haha yeah, I found it right after I posted that, thanks. Anyway, I will contend until the day of my death even if I haven't played Pokemon in 50 years that Arcanine should be BL, for the reasons I outlined in my analysis of Arcanine: he's great against any standard starter (except Gengar), he's good sleep bait, and when your opponent switches out its starter for fear of being Fire Blasted, you can Body Slam and have a chance to paralyze whoever switches in (usually Starmie, an important Pokemon to have paralyzed). And also, against Rhydon or Golem, Arcanine will have enough defenses (barring a CH) to get at least two Fire Blasts off to try to burn them (which will greatly decrease their effectiveness for the rest of the match).
To me, it is a no-brainer to have Arcanine in BL. He can definitely hold his ground in standard play much better than any single other Pokemon listed as UU, and also deal much more damage in standard play then any other Pokemon.
Sure Arcanine can be used in Standard, but he isn't -awesome- by any means at all. Just because a pokemon can be used in standard play does not mean it isn't UU. Arcanine has no dominance in UU like other pokemon may have. Any Water pokemon can counter Arcanine perfectly well (and there are lots of water pokemon used in UU) not to mention, 2 EQs and he is finished. another risk you take in using Arcanine is burning Starmie. a burnt starmie in RBY is very deadly. arcanine is a fair starter, but once he is forced to switch out or paralyzed or whatever, he becomes completely useless.
I feel that Arcanine can be very awesome in standard as a starter. It completely owns 3 of the Pokemon listed as standards (Alakazam, Chansey, Jynx) if it's played correctly, can do serious damage to Eggy with Fire Blast (or at least scare him out of the game for a bit), and seriously disable Rhydon, Golem, or Tauros with a burn. The standard Starmie doesn't pose a huge threat (no Surf) and Nine can definitely hold his own against Hypno and Persian.
Plus, he's great sleep bait. Arcanine will be the most dispensible Pokemon on your team, so you won't mind letting him fall asleep, and the opponent generally will sleep you because otherwise, Arcanine can do considerable damage) And that frees up the rest of your team for use, so you are always aware which Pokemon you will have asleep. In planning a team, it is helpful to know that you have one Pokemon designated for being put to sleep, so you know the rest of them will be available at all times, since sleeping is such a huge part of standard play.
While it's true that he doesn't dominate UU, he is still comparatively more useful in standard play than in UU play, which is why I think he should be moved up. In my experience with Arcanine, he always does well in standard (nearly every single match I'll take out at least one Pokemon with him, usually Alakazam or Chansey), and does not always do well in UU. He just has more uses in a non-UU environment.
Arcanine never becomes completely useless in a match. As long as you have him around either sleeping (obviously very useful, since this is preventing your other Pokemon from sleeping) or not, he will be useful. At the end of the match, his high attack stat will help. You can Hyper Beam or Body Slam weakened opponents to death. And with Reflect, you can set up to burn Rhydon, Golem, or Tauros, which would be a huge boost in the latter half of a match.
I implore you to try using him in these ways and then maybe you will see why I think he has just too many uses in standard play to be considered UU.
I'd agree that Arcanine is BL-worthy. He has good stats and can be pretty effective. I'd also like to note no way in hell is venomoth BL, anyone agree? Sure he can double-powder, and he's got supersonic and disable for whatever they're worth, but he's just a weak lil bug. Its special is pretty good i guess, but its not at the level of what I would consider something meant for total special attacking and has basically no attack or defense, is weak to Psychic, and its only good damaging attacks are Psychic and Mega Drain w/ no stab. His speed is good, I think he's clearly meant to just get in and powder everything he can, possibly through annoyance due to moves like supersonic which have bad accuracy anyways, but realistically, he just can't survive.
Anyway on the subject of Arcanine, if i move him to BL, this would be the same as saying "you cannot use Arcanine in UU." Just because a pokemon is UU is not saying they cannot do well against any other pokemon, it cannot be used in Standard play. Tangela is also really good in RBY. It has great defenses and can Sleep Powder and Swords Dance. It can definitely do well in standard play, but it just isn't good enough to be what it is. (The same could be said about many pokemon) As a starter Arcanine really only scares Eggy and Jynx, and after that it is pretty useless. Zam can PAR it and Psychic it down. Starmie can do the same (except with TBolt) Gengar isn't afraid of it at all. Its 318 stabless attacks aren't exactly a huge threat to chansey. A counter chansey completely owns it. it cant really switch in against anything except exeggutor and it wont be packing a huge hit on whatever switches in to counter it. And the way you people seem to be describing Arcanine as just a kamikaze without care of what happens to it, it will most likely have some sort of status effect on it very quickly which it will not be able to recover from. a paralyzed arcanine is about as useless as a pokemon can get. while i admit i have never used arcanine, i have definitely faced many people who have used arcanine and it has never been a pokemon where ive thought, "hey that is a pretty good pokemon that could be of some use..maybe ill try it."
What I was arguing is that Arcanine is more useful in Standard play, and a lot less useful in UU. He's far from unusable in Standard.
And I disagree with your assessment of his usefulness against Pokemon like Alakazam and Chansey. In a great majority of the battles I played with Arcanine, if the opponent had both on their team, Arcanine would take out at least one of them, sometimes both. He's a lot stronger than you think.
I didn't mean to give the impression that Arcanine is kamikaze - if I have any control over it, I will save him for late in the battle where he is perhaps the most useful. He is very good in the beginning and end of battles, perhaps more useful than most.
And obviously Gengar is not very afraid of it, but every Pokemon has at least one opponent Pokemon that it can't handle at all.
I really suggest you use Arcanine for a while before you totally disregard this suggestion, I think you will find that he is truly BL worthy.
well I'm going to go out on a limb here and vote that Venusaur and Victreebel be moved up to standard. For the reason that they are faster powderers than Xegg, and possess the essentially power 110 stab grass attack known as Razor Leaf backed up by a 100 Base Special. These are pokemon that have sweeping potential, as well as the ability to supply support to a team with their inherant grass type powders, in my opinion they don't require as much support as the other BLs on the list to shine in an OU environment despite being completly walled by Gengar, though even he won't like a stun spore on the swich. indeed, as an added bonus they are the pokemon that tobybro fears the most since no amount of amnesia will save it from razor leaf
I've really wanted to try Arcanine for many purposes. However, his moveset isn't truly solid. Basically, you've got [Fire Attack] [Fire Attack] [Normal Physical] [Normal Physical]. It's stats are amazing overall however, I cannot deny that (And they actually get better in the GSC metagame with the SPC ATK increasing by 20 points). Still, Arcanine doesn't have a move variety to go up onto the BL tier. I also believe the same for Ninetales, but I suppose it can still be BL'd due to Confuse Ray and its super special.
Why is Hypno standard? You hardly ever see it, and by putting it in the Borderline section, it fits the description. It is a solid pokemon that isn't as commonly used. As for Mr. Mime having 298 Special with 278 Speed is hardly dominant when it is going to die to any freaking hit. I mean lets be realistic. It doesn't even have 300 HP and its defense is horrible. A Wigglytuff Body Slam can do 40% to Mr. Mime. 40 freaking percent. That is a whole lot of damage. As for Mr. Mime being too powerful for UU you guys just jumped on Hip's bandwagon without ever doing any research. Honestly, how experienced are you guys with using Mr. Mime in the UU metagame. I am pretty sure you aren't very experienced at all with it, so how are you in the position to make a comment about it being too powerful when it is so weak and will die to anything.
Come on, a poke with no weakness, huge special and stab that is resisted by nothing?
I mean, it gets 3hkoed by Wigglytuff, but it also 3hko's Wigglytuff and is faster. Paraslam or Hyperbeam may stop that, but still, Wigglytuff certainly wouldnt be able to switch into MrMime.. And what pokemon in UU has better special resistance than Wigglytuff?
Also MrMime can Barrier. Considering it would already have the effective attack power of an Amnesiad Slowbro, this could easily sweep a team by itself.
It can Thunderwave too. Something that is pretty rare in uu outside of electrics..
You say it will die to anything, but what pokemon in uu can switch into a special fall psychic? Or a Ch psychic. MrMime would be by a long way the best sweeper in UU, able to switch in easily against waters and force a switch to something that will either be a MrMime; or will either lose or be made utterly unable to switch in against MrMime a second time.
I cant imagine anyone making a UU team without MrMime and expecting to be competitive..
If Mr. Mime is just going to be using Psychic all the time, then what is to prevent the water from switching out over and over. Eventually they will just stay in and steal an extra hit with Surf. Mr. Mime can't exactly just switch in and start kicking ass himself. Sure he can hurt stuff, but he gets hurt just as bad at the same rate. He owns just as much as he gets owned.
What prevents the water switching out over and over is that your opponent has to send a pokemon into a mrmime psychic.
Look at it this way, these are the pokemon that can switch into a MrMime psychic >50% of the time and beat it (All calculations from this point on desregard ches, with the exception of the move slash):
Arcanine, Flareon, Ninetales, Pidgeot, Rapidash
Note: Rapidash is only listed because of Firespin.. If it were to switch into a Thunderwave it will lose. Also, if Pidgeot switched into a Thunderwave or Thunderbolt it also will lose. For Ninetales and Arcanine, I haven't calculated exactly, but I am pretty certain switching into a thunderwave would drop their odds down to below 50%.. Which leaves flareon as the only safe switch in.
The following is a list of pokemon that can switch into MrMime and status it, but will most likely die before being able to finish it off:
Electabuzz, Electrode, Magneton, Mr. Mime, Parasect, Porygon, Tangela, Wigglytuff, Abra, Clefairy, Dragonair, Drowzee, Exeggcute
Note: Venomoth can achieve this also, but it needs to attack first, not be ched on the switch in and actually hit with whichever status move it was using, so I didnt bother listing it. Also Abra, Clefairy, Dragonair and Drowzee are not going to be met in uu battles..
And for fun, Pokemon that beat MrMime one on one:
Arcanine, Electabuzz, Fearow (with D-E + Hyperbeam), Flareon, Golduck, Magneton, Mr. Mime, Ninetales, Omastar (with hydropump), Pidgeot (with D-E + Hyperbeam), Rapidash, Raticate (with Superfang + Hyperbeam), Scyther, Vaporeon (hydropump), Wigglytuff.
Which granted is quite a few, but most of these are very unreliable, Golduck for instance needs to survive three turns without being ched, and then needs an R value of > 226 when it attacks.. Also MrMime could thunderbolt as Golducks statups then switch to a faster water with a physical move. If Golduck attacks before Amnesiaing twice it will lose to MrMime.
Also, if you are going to allow MrMime on the basis of its awful defense, why are you banning Dugtrio? It is faster, but is an easier countered attacker and is even more fragile than MrMime is.