RBY Tiers

[Justin8649]

After my tournament is over I think I am going to move Charizard, Nidoqueen and Poliwrath to borderline. What are your thoughts on this? And if you have any other input let me know.

Changes that I plan on making:

Tangela, Venomoth, Golduck will be moved to UU.
Charizard, Nidoqueen will be moved to BL.

The reasoning for Venomoth being moved to UU is because it really doesn't affect UU that much in play as Hip said. But I still believe it does just as well in standard play as many other BL pokemon just because of the fact that it has nice speed and is a great supporting pokemon.

 

[Emossuck777]

Not that I'm a veteran or anything, but it seems to me that everyone caught on to Cloyster being a good Tauros wall. I've seen that Vagina-shaped shell show up quite often. You might consider moving it to standard.

As for the others, I don't know about Nidoqueen, but it's up to you.

You might consider moving some down from standard as well. What ones, I don't know.

 

[Pidgeot500]

Maybe Charizard, as a kind of lesser Raichu (decent stats/speed, and varied offense, can do some damage, is what they have in common); as with Nidoking can only really do well in situations where its main counters are weakened...

In any case: http://www.smogon.com/community/showpost.php?p=135305&postcount=39 has my criticism. I was waiting for your RBY UU tourney to finish before I was going to post a new topic to make sure this was noticed, since I know you were using these tiers for that and I figured that way this would be less disruptive. So, it's nice that you've posted this topic, although I'm dismayed to find that you're seeming to set yourself as the maintainer of the tiers rather than resigning yourself to someone who was (obviously) instrumental in their creation, but who would then become just another opinion.

(Also, I hope you don't respond that you weren't asking for opinions on the tiers as they are now. I really had hoped (and still do) that Smogon can have official tiers which are fairly maintained with the input of everyone (like Hip would often sometimes change something on his tiers even when he disagreed, due to the vast majority of people arguing for it, such as with Raichu) rather than just one person's tiers who happens to be hosting them on Smogon; that would seem to follow with the whole contribution/peer review aspect of Smogon.) Edit: Great, I'm too late and Emossuck77 is already affirming the role you're trying to assume.

I'm not saying this to piss you off, though I probably will anyway since it would be too perfect if we discussed this diligently and were able to reach a rational consensus, but these tiers need a lot of adjustment, and that's not just my opinion (and not just one or two other peoples', I'm guessing--no, I know that's the case). Venomoth and Graveler are two main examples of Pokemon which shouldn't be borderline. I think you're thinking of UU metagame too much when forming these tiers, and that's influencing things too much (negatively).

 

[Justin8649]

blah blah blah i really have no idea why you had to blabber on about such pointless crap. it is a simple tier list. just because they are borderline doesn't mean they do well in standard play. almost all borderlines do horrible in standard play. graveler obviously wont be doing much. but rhydon/golem cant really absorb special attacks at all either, so i have no idea what your point is there. cloyster definitely isnt enough of a threat to be considered standard either. moving more pokemon to UU is just ridiculous and prevents any useage of most pokemon. the purpose of UU is to force people to be creative and innovative, not try and find the most powerful pokemon available and everybody using the same thing. if i move more down to UU it will be just like standard play and you will be seeing the same thing over and over. Charizard, Nidoking and the likes can do well in standard play and in borderline play. your suggestions just dont make much sense at all. it seems you just want to be against anything i am involved with, but thats ok. and i made these tier lists on my own, so really, i have no idea what 80% of your blabbering is about. ive asked several people who play rby for their input and they have all approved of the tiers, several things can be debatable, such as where Hypno and Lapras belong. if people have good reasons as to why something should be changed, i would listen and consider it.

 

[Roy]

i think a lot of different pokemon should be moved anyways

 

[Pidgeot500]

They people you asked are native RBY'ers, and active, and experienced? And they seriously agreed that Graveler and Venomoth BL? They didn't raise any objections, I mean.

"borderlines do horrible in standard play."
Not the definition of a borderline. Yes, this makes sense now; your definition of borderlines is much more (downwardly) broad than ordinary.

"moving more pokemon to UU is just ridiculous and prevents any useage of most pokemon. the purpose of UU is to force people to be creative and innovative, not try and find the most powerful pokemon available and everybody using the same thing."
In these two sections you use UU in two different senses; UU in respect to the standard metagame, and appropriate for play in UU. This tells me you don't understand how Pokemon's tier/power is weakened in a metagame in which its counters are more or less prominent.

Thanks for responding in such a way as I can continue to discuss this, even though you have decided I'm out to get you... Were you just lying out of convenience in that PM conversation we had, and you've really continued to resent me all this time, and nothing I said meant anything?

 

[Justin8649]

i created this thread to invoke intelligent discussion on why pokemon should be moved, if any at all. as of yet, emosuck777 has made the only decent point, but moving cloyster to standard really isnt that feasible of a decision seeing how he can not really compete against any special pokemon whatsoever and cannot really pack much of a punch when it comes to attacking being limited to only ice/water/explosion/clamp. and you are definitely not understanding what im saying. borderline pokemon can be used in standard play, but standards dominate borderline. regardless. thats just the way it is. and how in the world is graveler not borderline? he still has killer defense, nice hp, nice attack and explosion. venomoth is one of the speediest double powderers there is in the game, it is a huge threat, just because it doesn't get great attacks doesn't mean much. does chansey suck because it can only absorb special attacks? it has horrible attack stat making its STAB moves useless. it must suck.

 

[Pidgeot500]

http://www.smogon.com/community/showpost.php?p=135305&postcount=39 is the point I made. Although of course you may have decided that mine was not a "decent" point.

"borderline pokemon can be used in standard play, but standards dominate borderline"
If standards dominated borderline, why would anyone ever use a borderline on their team? Dragonite is an example of a borderline that can do very well in standard, though it's difficult to play (as is the case with many borderlines). Maybe you're using too strong a word, but you should know better if that's the case, since definitions are a major point here...

I explained Graveler and Venomoth in that post. Edit: Actually, right, I should explain this better: Psychic/MD can't touch Alakazam, Starmie, or Chansey--Edit: or Exeggutor, or Jynx--Gengar beats it out with its own Psychic, and Rhydon does more to it with Rock Slide that it does with MD (though it's faster, yes). More importantly, you still haven't mentioned who helped you design these tiers, and whether anyone raised any objection to Graveler or Venomoth, which is what I am interested in knowing.

Please respond to this directly: are you really proceeding to place yourself as the maintainer of the RBY tiers of Smogon (in addition to having been their creator)? That's all I really need to know, in order to progress from this point onward...

 

[Justin8649]

ive already seen your points and i find them very unsensible. the purpose of a tiers is to group pokemon that are similar in power. the pokemon in the borderline section are all very similar in what they are capable of doing. it isnt about being able to go in and dominate against a standard team with one of them. venomoth is a great support pokemon that usually has psywave on its standard sets, although you probably battle a bunch of newer people. to be honest im not too sure of your battling skills and knowledge of actual battling. the purpose of venomoth is to have a speedy sleeper that can paralyze stuff. just because it cant kill anything doesnt mean it isnt a great support pokemon. etc. :rolleyes:

 

[Hipmonlee]

At the moment, I suggest that Nidoqueen and Electabuzz should dominate UU battles with your list..

I dont understand why Tangela is in the borderline category. It is defensively very useful in UU, but it still can't attack for shit.. Allowing wont make anything unuseable, and therefore will increase the number of useable pokemon by 1.

It also is something of an Electabuzz counter, which your list is short on.

I think Dugtrio should be brought down as well.. It is an offensive powerhouse in UU it is true, but it does have counters (Tangela, Vaporeon, Blastoise, Pinsir, Parasect) and it still gets 2hkoed by everything. The only thing Dugtrio is going to prevent the use of is Magneton, which I am going to hazard a guess is generally looked over in favour of Electabuzz..

Poliwrath and Golduck too, I think you are overestimating the power of.. They would be among the more effective of the UU's but they can be stopped (Electrics, Blastoise, Vaporeon, Seadra!). And even without these pokes, the setup they require should cost them dearly in a uu situation.

Charizard I support moving up, not because it is overpowered, but because it makes all the other fire types redundant.

Nidoqueen I would move up also.. It should be in the same tier as Nidoking.

Also Hypno should be B/L.. It's not a standard.

[Edit] - Oh yeah, Venomoth.. Well it's a stronger Butterfree, but even in uu all it can do is double powder..

Have a nice day.

 

[Pidgeot500]

Did I change my preferences, or why do my posts always disappear so easily these days when I accidentally click a link? Hmm...

"the purpose of a tiers is to group pokemon that are similar in power."
Yes, if you under "power" as viability (viableness?) in standard play. And that's commonly expressed in tiers, but as I said earlier, at least some of your personal definitions for what should constitute a tier are different than (almost, I'll allow, though I don't know of anyone personally) everyone else's. For instance, you describe a borderline as unable to compete with standards. Which would make sense with how you're describing Venomoth, since there's no way Venomoth could be competitive in standard play just because it has paralysis support and is a fast sleeper, especially when it is walled by Chansey, which is the famous status absorber.

"to be honest im not too sure of your battling skills and knowledge of actual battling."
I'm certainly not the best battler, and I suspect you could be better than me at actually battling, but that because in this current metagame, prediction counts for quite a bit. I'm passively researching ways to maximize the strategic element, however, which involves researching different styles and experimental styles. (I say "passively" because real life must take priority; I love RBY, but it's just a game, and opportunity does not knock twice...)

Again, you still haven't stated who helped you design these tiers, and whether anyone raised any objection to Graveler or Venomoth, nor have you answered my question of whether or not you're proceeding to place yourself as the maintainer of the RBY tiers of Smogon. As well, you have not addressed my entire post, only the parts which I brought to your attention specifically (and not adequately enough IMO of course, but that's the issue at hand).

 

[Justin8649]

I already told you I created the tier lists on my own. Nobody helped me with it. I have shown the list to several people while I was in the process of updating it.

And I have no idea what you are talking about with disappearing posts, I only moderate the Tournaments forum, and I only delete posts that are trolling/off topic/ridiculous arguing. And if you would observe Hip's post, he actually gave supporting reasons for his decisions. He made plenty of sense and I understood what he was saying. That is the purpose of this thread, to make the tier list as good as it can possibly be. I will listen to all of the arguments and make the decision based on what I feel is best, while trying to be as unbiased as possible in regards to my thoughts. As you can see, I will be moving Venomoth to the UU Tier.

 

[Pidgeot500]

Oh, I wasn't accusing anyone of deleting posts; I mean, I always use Quick Reply, and before if I accidentally clicked a link in the middle of writing the post and then hit back my post would be there. It's just a browser thing.

"I already told you I created the tier lists on my own. Nobody helped me with it. I have shown the list to several people while I was in the process of updating it."
Yep, I heard you, and the people you showed it to are the people I was referring to. Actually, now that you have made those changes, never mind this question...

And, thank you for making those changes... At this point, almost every Pokemon (excepting the 3 I'm about to argue for) you have listed now is in the right order (in a sense) as I see it, though I still believe your borderline tier is too extensive. Earlier you said borderlines can't compete with standards (in more or less words), and as I said, I very much disagree with this.

Here's what I'd also like to argue:
"Mr. Mime and Moltres, while owning UU with their great 278 speeds and awesome specials, can't really do a thing to Chansey and Alakazam / Eggy (Mime) or Alakazam / Starmie (Moltres). That's why they're considered by many to be "not good enough for standard but too good for UU". Oh, this also applies to a lesser extent to Tentacruel (great 298 speed, awesome special) which is walled by Starmie/Alakazam (with /very/ good support it might be able to Wrap its way to effectiveness, but good, accurate partial trapping doesn't make something BL..)."
Can you respond to this?

Also, I never elaborated on Hypno, but it's a complex issue and it's late so I won't do that quite yet... maybe tomorrow. With Hypno in mind, it seems you've just shifted the standards of both your tiers (standard and borderline) down a bit, actually.

Before I close this post, I want to say that I believe that a system in which multiple people are allowed to make changes to the official Smogon tiers would be more fair. Unless you want to set yourself as the only person who can rationally/fairly respond to criticism, I would say you should ask another major RBY'er and Smogon member, such as Hipmonlee, Lesm46, Vineon, Roy, or Fuzion (some of these may not have SCMS access though, I guess). ...The main problem you may have with this, as I know, is that for several of these RBY'ers, you disagree with them on everything and/or think that that they have a grudge against you. However, I still think that someone--an active, experienced, and respected RBY'er, who is familiar with the modern metagame--should share this responsibility, because otherwise it's the same as indicating you are the only experienced RBY'er you can trust to be honorable/judicious, which is... I dunno, like setting yourself up as a jealous eccentric. Maybe I can just try to argue a few other things and get these tiers in a position where they wouldn't differ much from most of those people's current opinions, however...

Edit: Also, will these tiers be changing the rules of the UU tourney that's already in progress?

 

[Justin8649]

Being walled by specific standards is a reason that these said pokemon are in tiers. Are you telling me that Mr. Mime and Moltres cannot compete in borderline play against other borderline pokemon? Are you telling me that Moltres cannot be used on a standard team when it is only countered by Starmie, Chansey, and Rhydon (to an extent, even though he can get burned) But Chansey and Starmie wall a lot of pokemon. Rhydon walls Zapdos, it doesn't mean Zapdos sucks. Moltres can do well against Gengar, Exeggutor, Jynx, Cloyster, Lapras, Articuno, Tauros, Snorlax, Persian, Alakazam, Hypno, etc. Mr. Mime may not do well because it is very lacking in defenses, but it can still do a nice job on the same pokemon as Moltres (with the exception of Eggy) and it can also TBolt which is a nice addition for facing other Psychics (especially Starmie). I think you are too concerned with what is in the borderline tier, when it's purpose is just a buffer between Standards and Underused.

Edit: I answered your edit in the very first post. In the very first sentence!

 

[Pidgeot500]

Can you respond to anything else I said, besides my Mr. Mime & Moltres paragraph and my edited question?

 

[Justin8649]

i dont know what else to respond to. its not like im not taking into consideration what other people are saying.

 

[Mekkah]

This is all subjective and always will be, so glad we only have 4 tiers.

I agree with Charizard being moved up, because as Hip said, it makes the game more versatile (Rapidash and Ninetales showing up). I'm not too sure about Nidoqueen. When I think about it, it sounds kinda crazy that Nidoking and Nidoqueen have seperate tiers. Plus Nidoqueen hits very hard on about everything, provided with good prediction. I saw it everywhere during my short RBY UU reign. On the downside, it can be outpredicted and it's weak to Water and Earthquake, making it vulnerable to the likes of Blastoise or almost any physical attacker.

I'd say just move it up.

I don't think Golduck belongs to UU, doesn't it get Amnesia without Tradebacks? Doesn't that mean it will be a fast Poliwrath with no added Fighting type? It won't be a very huge problem for my team, especially when I have to consider it, but maybe it will change too much.

Venomoth and Tangela are fine to move for me, however.

 

[\/\/ill-O-The-\/\/isp]

Jolteon deserves as much respect as Zapdos, he is faster & his special higher, his CH would KO anything that has 2 times weakness to it, LOL Gyarados. When his Pin Missile CH all 5 times, he could OHKO Eggy. Just ask Sir Chris :)

 

[Roy]

drill peck anyone?

 

[\/\/ill-O-The-\/\/isp]

Drill peck doesnt KO eggy on full health even on CH! Eggy could either explode or stun spore zappy. This would only happen if the opponents rhydon or golem is down. Nobody in thier sane mind wud leave an eggy on zapdos. Jolteon is by far more flexible, he could sand attack or double kick in prediction of a switch to rock. Well to top it all off, Jolteon isn't a legendary but he can stand up against 1.

 

[Justin8649]

Zapdos has 348 special. Jolteon has 318 special.

Zapdos is immune to Earthquake
Jolteon is weak to Earthquake

Earthquake is a very common move in RBY

This makes Rhydon/Golem Zapdos' only true counters in the entire game pretty much. Jolteon has a fuckload of counters. They aren't even close to comparable.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Zapdos does ohko with max damage ch drill peck. Though it isnt very likely. It is however more likely than a Jolteon getting a CH on a 5x pinmissile hit. ~6% vs ~4%

Also even if Eggy does Explode, Zapdos can survive it whereas Jolteon can't. Also a Paralysed Zapdos is much more useful than a paralysed Jolteon, should Eggy use stun spore.

Have a nice day.

 

[JMC]

does anyone still remember purelimit's UU list? That was, by far, one of the best UU lists out there.

My only change for that would be to take off Tentacruel from the UU due to it's now-available wrappability.

 

[Chronicles]

why is this jolteon zapdos shit in a topic about UU and BLs

 

[Roy]

does anyone still remember purelimit's UU list? That was, by far, one of the best UU lists out there.

My only change for that would be to take off Tentacruel from the UU due to it's now-available wrappability.

yes purelimit's UU list was great. anyone still have it?