Gen 1 RBY UU General Discussion

#27
If you don't go by usage stats; then I think considering tiers as banlists, only banning stuff that is too strong in this tier is the correct way to do it.

Which means that even if a Pokémon is usable in a higher tier, it shouldn't be banned from lower tiers on that reason alone
 

The Immortal

They Don't Want None
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#28
I think that Dnite should not be allowed in RBY UU, not really because it is broken in UU (something questionable), but because it is good enough in OU to be considered OU
You probably need to make a case here: RBY OU Viability Ranking - Mark II where it is currently C Rank. B Rank = banned from UU.

Also, the tiers in the teambuilder should be fixed now to match Smogon's.
 
#30
Might finally have time to ladder spam this weekend. Just going through this thread I'm a bit surprised D-nite is reported to be as much of a problem sans the surprise factor, although I was initially against its inclusion in UU. I'm interested to see whether its movesets diversify in this lower tier.
 
#31
Having played this tier quite a bit on the ladder now I would like to share my thoughts about the Pokemon that I feel are relevant in the meta.
I really enjoyed playing it and think it is a cool tier with quite some variability in it. But one has to be aware that partial trapping moves play a much bigger role than in OU because there are 3 very viable wrappers in Dragonite, Tentacruel and Victreebel and one viable Fire Spinner in Moltres. Anyway Wrap is not broken and if something should get banned then ban Dragonite (no complex ban please). So here is my list:

-Broken Pokemon (Those are arguably the best Pokemon in the meta):

-Articuno,
-Dragonite

I called the category "Boken Mons" because i feel they are both broken. That being said the meta is playable with both of them around, because Articuno keeps Dragonite in check. So my proposal about them is either leave it alone or ban both of them. The only reason I see for keeping Articuno (which is ridiculously strong for UU standards) in UU is to keep Dragonite in check. If Nite goes that reason goes as well, so banning only Dnite does not make sense imo. Banning only Articuno would make Dragonite even more broken than it already is, which is absolutely ridiculous. So like I said, ban both or don't touch it.

-very good Pokemon: (not ordered)

-Raichu: not much to say, good speed, STAB Thunderbolt plus Surf coverage plus Thunderwave, poor bulk keep it from being ranked higher, also cannot touch VicSaur
-Kadabra: one of the fastest mons in the tier, outspeeding the bse 100 Pokes, which is huge, nothing likes to take Psychics, Twave. As with Raichu poor bulk makes it manageble.
-Hypno: double status, STAB Psychic, relatively nice bulk. Low speed hurts.
-Tentacruel: Base 100 speed plus wrap is monstrous, second strongest Special attack in the tier behind the birds, can run SD even, checks Articuno and Moltres, very good mon.
-Omastar: Moltres, Dodrio wall, good matchups vs Kanga and Persian, strong Hydro Pump, pretty hard to take down, and Raichu does not enjoy the switch in.
-Gyarados: BlizzBolt if it wants to, strong Bodyslams, outpacing Dragonite with access to blizzard is never bad. Can usually trade vs one Pokemon of choice.
-Haunter: Hypnosis, the only thing that stops wrap reliably which is enough in its own right.
-Moltres: walled by Omastar, Fire Spin is a shit move, far from being as good as Articuno, still powerfull and a solid choice

-good Pokemon: (not ordered)

Kangaskhan: this is not OU, late game sweeps work differently here, a Tauros-like Pokemon is not really needed, has a bad matchup vs Articuno and Dragonite can usually set up on it
-Persian: see Kangaskhan but drop the "usually". it is a dangerous Pokemon to switch into, but the biggest Dragonite Set up bait in the tier
-Venusaur: solid choice as a sleeper, faster than Victreebel which can come in handy and speed ties Dragonite which means it has at least a chance to put it to sleep, Razor leaf is strong, but it lures in the birds so you need a plan for that
-Victreebel: see Venusaur, but it has acceess to wrap and Stun Spore which is nasty, but like Venusaur usually fails to do much after putting something to sleep
-Charizard: yes, Charizard. It is not completely outclassed by Moltres since it has access to SD +EQ with 100 base speed meaning if it finds a setup opportunity Pokemon such as Raichu and Tentacruel have a good chance at losing against it
-Dodrio: strong af but Omastar walls it which limits it heavily
-Golduck: Amnesia sweeper but struggles vs Tentacruel which can just come in on Amnesia and can start wrapping, it won't even be punished too hard if it misses.

So this is my overview with some really short descriptions of what I feel is relevant in the tier, and I really feel a team is definitely worse without Dragonite and Articuno. But those are the only mons, everything else is somewhat mutuable (so it is definitely less centralized than OU)

Fell free to agree or disagree and adding something if you feel it is necessary.

Edit:
Just an example of what makes Articuno broken: The calc Articuno vs Raichu, a Pokemon that has the typing and speed advantage over Cuno:
Raichu Thunderbolt vs. Articuno: 165-194 (43 - 50.6%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO
Articuno Blizzard vs. Raichu: 164-193 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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#33
Surprised it's not just
Broke=Uber
SAB=OU
C=BL
DEF=UU

though from what it's sounding like Dnite and Art1 may be going to BL soon in the future.
BL is a place to put banned mons from a lower tier. BL is not a tier in and of itself. Why would you automatically exclude a handful of mons from UU like that? You're effectively making them OU in all but name because that would be the only place they could be played.
 

Honko

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#34
I've been playing a bit of this on the ladder and am really enjoying it. Fun tier.

Electabuzz seems to me to be at least as good as Raichu. It outspeeds the base 100s, and I think the Grasses are scarier than the Grounds so Psychic > Surf as a coverage move.

What moves are people running on Articuno? I've been using Blizzard / Ice Beam / Agility / Rest. Had Reflect for a while but it never came in handy. Are any of Sky Attack / Double-Edge / Hyper Beam / Mimic worth using in place of Ice Beam or Rest?
 
#35
Concerning Articuno's moveset I think Blizzard and Agility are a must. In my opinion it can afford to run Ice Beam alongside Blizzard because it still hits extremely hard and secures kills that Blizzard would fail to get 10% of the time which can be very nasty. In the last slot the moves you named could all be used i suppose, but I would give Hyper Beam/Double Egde the edge over Rest/Reflect/Mimic because it can come in handy against stuff like Tentacruel. Sky Attack hits Grass types which is already covered by Blizzard but takes two turns and fighting types are nonexistant and hit hard enough by STAB Blizzard anyway (it can work against Polowrath though... but idk...)
Rest and Reflect seem hard to pull off or unneccessary respectvely since Articuno has the advantage against every physical attacker anyway and Rest is usually exploitable (in desperate situations even allows Dragonite to set up on Articuno and pray for no misses), I would not use either of them.
 

BenTheDemon

Banned deucer.
#36
I've always used Dragonite in OU, and it really should not be C-rank, and by extension, should not be in UU. It's basically Jirachi from other generations where the opponent must rely on hax to get in a hit. The only counter to Dragonite is Gengar, and even Gengar relies on a miss due to Wrap still immobilizing Ghost types. The infinite PP glitch is also a factor here, so you cannot just PP stall Dragonite. And even when Dragonite eventually misses, he's likely severely weakened the opposing team, making him a great support 'Mon.
Let's also not forget that Paralysis is everywhere in RBY, so with additional Para support, Dragonite also works as an effective cleaner.
Dragonite also works as a check to 3 of the 4 S-rank Pokemon, as it naturally outspeeds Chansey, Snorlax, and Exeggutor. So C-rank/UU is really not suitable for our favorite Dragon.
EDIT: Dragonite also arguably does Cloyster's job better, and Cloyster is OU so...
 
#37
I've always used Dragonite in OU, and it really should not be C-rank, and by extension, should not be in UU. It's basically Jirachi from other generations where the opponent must rely on hax to get in a hit. The only counter to Dragonite is Gengar, and even Gengar relies on a miss due to Wrap still immobilizing Ghost types. The infinite PP glitch is also a factor here, so you cannot just PP stall Dragonite. And even when Dragonite eventually misses, he's likely severely weakened the opposing team, making him a great support 'Mon.
Let's also not forget that Paralysis is everywhere in RBY, so with additional Para support, Dragonite also works as an effective cleaner.
Dragonite also works as a check to 3 of the 4 S-rank Pokemon, as it naturally outspeeds Chansey, Snorlax, and Exeggutor. So C-rank/UU is really not suitable for our favorite Dragon.
EDIT: Dragonite also arguably does Cloyster's job better, and Cloyster is OU so...
You're severely overselling it here... I don't want to go for a quote war but almost each of your statements are wrong.

The opponent doesn't have to rely on hax to get it in a hit, it's the Dragonite user who has to rely on hax to make it work, you're spamming a 85% accurate move, misses are normal and expected. If you don't miss it means you're the one really haxing (calculate the odds of that, it's frightening). Gengar doesn't rely on a Wrap miss, it doesn't take damage lol, Dragonite doesn't hurt it, it just loses PP. You can for sure PP stall Dragonite in some situations, and when you can't it's not because of the PP glitch which is avoidable, it's because your team is too much crippled to take all of them hits (meaning you were more often than not already losing despite Dragonite). It's true that sometimes Dragonite does a good job at heavily weakening the opposite team, but that doesn't really make it a support mon or anything, it's just a RNG based mon that NEEDS support and luck to work, it does't support anything. You can't wallbreak with it (too dangerous, counterable etc), so it's more of a cleaner. It's not one "with additional para support" btw, it needs that to work and can't do much without it (Also players avoid paralysis on key mons like Tauros, Starmie, fast ones like Jolt, Zap, even like Cloyster... all these mons make Dnite's life very difficult and it's not set-up, and when it is well... a miss is terrible. It doesn't "check" Chansey Lax and Egg in anyway, a check switches on something, Dnite can't switch on them (well it can switch on a EQ from lax but...), and naturally outspeeding isn't enough since a miss against those can cripple it hard.

Also Cloyster and Dnite don't have the same role at all, Cloyster is a physical wall that can boom when no longer useful and use Clamp as a move mainly to pivot, whereas Dnite just spams Wrap. It's fine in C, and it's normal that it dropped to UU since it sees almost no competitive usage whatsoever.
 

BenTheDemon

Banned deucer.
#38
You're severely overselling it here... I don't want to go for a quote war but almost each of your statements are wrong.

The opponent doesn't have to rely on hax to get it in a hit, it's the Dragonite user who has to rely on hax to make it work, you're spamming a 85% accurate move, misses are normal and expected. If you don't miss it means you're the one really haxing (calculate the odds of that, it's frightening). Gengar doesn't rely on a Wrap miss, it doesn't take damage lol, Dragonite doesn't hurt it, it just loses PP. You can for sure PP stall Dragonite in some situations, and when you can't it's not because of the PP glitch which is avoidable, it's because your team is too much crippled to take all of them hits (meaning you were more often than not already losing despite Dragonite). It's true that sometimes Dragonite does a good job at heavily weakening the opposite team, but that doesn't really make it a support mon or anything, it's just a RNG based mon that NEEDS support and luck to work, it does't support anything. You can't wallbreak with it (too dangerous, counterable etc), so it's more of a cleaner. It's not one "with additional para support" btw, it needs that to work and can't do much without it (Also players avoid paralysis on key mons like Tauros, Starmie, fast ones like Jolt, Zap, even like Cloyster... all these mons make Dnite's life very difficult and it's not set-up, and when it is well... a miss is terrible. It doesn't "check" Chansey Lax and Egg in anyway, a check switches on something, Dnite can't switch on them (well it can switch on a EQ from lax but...), and naturally outspeeding isn't enough since a miss against those can cripple it hard.

Also Cloyster and Dnite don't have the same role at all, Cloyster is a physical wall that can boom when no longer useful and use Clamp as a move mainly to pivot, whereas Dnite just spams Wrap. It's fine in C, and it's normal that it dropped to UU since it sees almost no competitive usage whatsoever.
A COUNTER can switch in. A check is something that can't come in safely, but can come in after another 'Mon faints. And my point with Gengar was mostly just to talk about Wrap's mechanics. Wrap doesn't scare Gengar at all, which makes Gengar the truest counter to Dnite.
Yes, you will likely miss eventually, but RBY's metagame is full of hax just due to the nature of the game, which is why most people don't consider it an extremely competitive meta. However, Dragonite is simply too strong to remain UU, and it's still very viable in OU, not as a sweeper or a wall, but as a cleaner or to weaken the opposing team.

Imagine this scenario: Dragonite sets up an Agility and starts Wrapping. The opponent has two options. Stay in and risk being whittled down to Hyper Beam range or keep switching and have to rely on two consecutive misses, which usually means Dragonite gets to weaken the entire team for other Pokemon to clean up.

But even if you don't think that Dragonite should rise to B, there is almost no argument saying that he should stay UU given his attributes. Let us not forget that Dragonite also has the highest Attack stat in the game, giving him the strongest non-STAB Hyper Beams.
 
#39
Well okay if you want to play with terms, but in game you're not thinking to yourself "I have my Dragonite to check Chansey/Snorlax/Exeggutor", especially when your only way of doing so is spamming a 85% accurate move. You're not happy to spam wrap against those, because a miss can be devastating. Chansey twaves, virtually killing Dragonite, because even if you use Agility after that to negate the speed drop you have even lower chances of connecting Wrap. It can also Ice Beam to murder it. Exeggutor sleeps/stun spores, same story. If Snorlax Body Slams it can paralyse, and if it doesn't Dnite is now in Tauros Blizzard range, and Starmie now gets the 100% kill (on the top of my head). If it misses a second time (which is likely since Lax has good bulk), SD kills, or you have another shot at Slamming. Honestly if you're thinking "My Dragonite checks Chansey/Snorlax/Exeggutor" you're probably not understanding the game you're playing (no offense).

"Yes, you will likely miss eventually, but RBY's metagame is full of hax just due to the nature of the game, which is why most people don't consider it an extremely competitive meta." --> Yes it's missing eventually, which is why it's not as good as you made it look in your first post. By saying "but rby is just full of hax" you're not answering this point. On a different note, saying it's "full of hax" is debatable since the better player usually wins. Saying people don't consider it extremely competitve depends on who you ask. Smogon doesn't like that much in general, but most rby main players are extremely competitive about it, but in other places.

I know the scenario of Dnite using agility, "staying in and risk being whittled down to hyper beam range" well if you miss before putting in hyper beam range (which is, once again, quite likely) you're dead, and your opponent will see what you're doing so he won't let you just kill you with hyper beam. Funny thing is that your opponent catching your Dnite's hyper beam is so bad for you that you actually want to continue using wrap lol. Also, Dnite isn't easy to set up. "Weakens the entire team and a pokemon cleans up", once again, your opponent won't let you, not letting put stuff in key ranges, missing twice in a row happens, he can pp stall, catch that beam... You make it seem like those are not reliable, they are in the long run, what's not reliable is Dragonite managing to do what you expect it to do most games. It doesn't, which is why it sees almost no competitive usage by top players.

The fact of Dnite being too strong to be in UU isn't about it being strong in it, it's about it being strong or not in OU. It's not good enough to be considered OU, it dropped to UU, that's it. If it's broken in UU then it gets banned from there (which is different from it being considered OU). But in a tier with Cuno, Cuno and Moltres Counters (so waters/ices), Haunter is a thing... Dnite has to be very careful.

I'm not saying Dnite is bad (I personally don't like it, I prefer to use consistent pokemon that don't make me cross my fingers every time I click a move I have to spam, and I think most players will agree with me) it's just not as good as you make it look. It's completely RNG based.
 
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BenTheDemon

Banned deucer.
#40
RNG is the whole name of the game in RBY. And since the new tiers aren't usage based anymore, eliminating BL, Dragonite is either UU or OU, and he's too broken for UU, and he's done well in OU for a long time, so it's really not a solid argument to call it unviable.
Read this part of Rhydon's analysis:
"The trickiest problem is dealing with Starmie. For example, say you predict Starmie will switch in and use Body Slam, and it does switch in and you are lucky and Body Slam paralyzes Starmie. After that, you can 2HKO Starmie, but if it has Surf it will OHKO Rhydon. After this, you ought to use Substitute and hope that Starmie gets fully paralyzed. Maybe it won't, but Rhydon will be able to set up 4 Substitutes before running out of HP and then it will have one more chance of using Earthquake before Starmie finishes it off, meaning it has a 76% chance of getting off 2 Earthquakes against that Starmie (as well as a reasonable chance of finishing it off with a Substitute still intact, should it get fully paralyzed twice)."

Relying on RNG is just part of RBY, and Dragonite is no different. In a game full of Body Slam paralysis, Thunder Wave, and a Freeze mechanic being as good as a KO, the miss chance on Wrap seems rather minor considering the benefits.

I feel like if RBY UU were a more popular tier, Dragonite would have been quickbanned very early, but since it's a very niche tier, it's still allowed.
 
#41
And since the new tiers aren't usage based anymore, eliminating BL, Dragonite is either UU or OU
I don't really think that's true. There's no reason that a BL can't be made; it just doesn't exist now because we freshly re-created UU. In new gens, at least, when the lower tiers are being created, there isn't immediately a visible BL over them until something is banned. Nothing got banned from RBY UU while it was ROA Spotlight, and so there is no BL yet.
BL would serve to distinguish "This isn't that great in OU but it's too good in UU", which... Is what BL means in a modern sense anyway. BL is not based on usage, so that shouldn't mean anything here. There's no reason to just ignore that the concept of BL exists and can be easily created.
Basically, I don't think it's a binary decision when there are actually three possible places it could go. (OU, BL, UU.)
 

BenTheDemon

Banned deucer.
#42
I don't really think that's true. There's no reason that a BL can't be made; it just doesn't exist now because we freshly re-created UU. In new gens, at least, when the lower tiers are being created, there isn't immediately a visible BL over them until something is banned. Nothing got banned from RBY UU while it was ROA Spotlight, and so there is no BL yet.
BL would serve to distinguish "This isn't that great in OU but it's too good in UU", which... Is what BL means in a modern sense anyway. BL is not based on usage, so that shouldn't mean anything here. There's no reason to just ignore that the concept of BL exists and can be easily created.
Basically, I don't think it's a binary decision when there are actually three possible places it could go. (OU, BL, UU.)
Actually, there was a BL, but it was removed and the new tiers are based on viability. Dragonite has historically always been OU, even when BL existed. But since BL means not OU by usage, but too strong for UU, there's no reason to make a BL since the tiers are no longer usage based, so OU encompasses this theoretical BL.
 

Honko

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#43
The tiers are based on viability, yes, but that doesn't mean there's no place for a BL between OU and UU. BL would be for Pokemon that are not viable enough in OU, but are too good in UU. They're two completely different metagames, so it's definitely possible for a Pokemon to be overpowered in UU without being good enough in OU to meet whatever viability cutoff we've set.

Not saying that any of this necessarily applies to Dragonite (who, in my very limited experience playing RBY UU on the ladder, seemed strong but not broken to me). But if it does, there are two separate discussions to have:
1) Is Dragonite good enough in the OU metagame that it should be ranked higher in the OU viability rankings and thereby moved up to OU?
2) If not, is Dragonite good enough in the UU metagame that it should be banned from UU and moved to BL?

The purpose of the distinction between BL and OU is the same as in newer gens with usage-based tiers. It's a threatlist. The Pokemon in OU are the ones that you need to be most concerned with when building an OU team. The ones in BL, like the ones in UU, are not as important to the OU metagame.
 
#44
"RNG is the whole name of the game in RBY"

I don't know what's this supposed to mean, that RBY is basically like craps in a casino ? Just because RNG is a part of the game, doesn't mean some RNG based things can't be less RNG based (therefore more consistent, therefore better) than some other RNG based things. I'm talking about Dragonite not being consistent enough to be considered good/ou/competitive/whatever, and you're answering "yes but rng is the part of the game". Just because it's part of the game, doesn't mean you can't judge the viability of rng based strats. You still haven't answered my point. Relying on a FP, a crit, is usually way better than relying on Dragonite working, and these are RNG based strats too, you can't just blow away the downsides of Dnite by saying "rby is hax anyway yo" (once again, rby being hax-based is debatable)

"the miss chance on Wrap seems rather minor considering the benefits."

I mean... no, not at all. It's the opposite: the (very) few times full Wrap spam will actually work are minor compared to the downsides of when it doesn't work, because when it doesn't Dragonite dies (or at least virtually if it takes para), and more often that not it won't work, run numbers, ask players, do whatever you want. I've been playing in RBY tours for more than a year now, and I haven't seen one top player use it seriously in a tour => You haven't answered this point either. Are we all bad, or is Dnite not that good ?

"I feel like if RBY UU were a more popular tier, Dragonite would have been quickbanned very early, but since it's a very niche tier, it's still allowed."

Like how can you even know that if the tier is niche/not explored enough yet... Just because it barely (or not) didn't make the cut to OU, doesn't mean it will be broken in UU, there are two different tiers.
 
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Lutra

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#46
I may ask something pretty stupid but, why is there no Gen 1 UU format available on Showdown? There are just OU and Ubers :/
It was available as the RoA Spotlight ladder on Showdown a few months ago, but it's since changed to Gen 3 UU. Basically there's a limit to how many tiers that can be implemented, and there hasn't been enough of a reason to implement it permanently yet.
 
#47
So basically it's because of Showdown's limits that make Gen 1 UU not worth?

And what exactly is RoA Spotlight? something to decide if a tier should disappear or not?
 

Lutra

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#48
Well there's no incentive to add lots of tiers because it's too much choice. I don't specifically know if anything's been mentioned about Gen 1 UU.

RoA Spotlight is a ladder that rotates between tiers that don't have ladders otherwise.
 
#50
Are trade backs from GSC allowed in RBY UU? If so, it might be neat to have a Petal Dance Golduck, especially since it gets amnesia and it is essentially would like HP Grass for a Gen 1 game.