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Gen 1 RBY Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Princess Bubblegum, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    In case you haven't seen this in other generations, basically its a thread where we rank Pokemon based on their viability in the metagame. If you think there is something wrong with it, suggest we move something up to down, or even to remove or add something to the list. The community will discuss it and maybe change the list.

    This list isn't exactly like other lists, as E contains Pokemon that are somewhat usable, other lists have E as the specifically bad Pokemon one should never use.

    I would like to thank Jorgen for helping me form the initial list and descriptions.

    Anyway, unto the list.

    S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon which pose a very significant offensive or defensive threat, consistently harming or walling the opposing team.
    • [​IMG] Tauros
    A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the RBY metagame. These Pokemon pose a signifigant offensive or defensive threat to most teams. If these Pokemon have flaws, they are often outshown by their strengths.
    • [​IMG] Alakazam
    • [​IMG] Chansey
    • [​IMG] Exeggutor
    • [​IMG] Snorlax
    • [​IMG] Starmie
    B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are very good in the RBY metagame, yet are somewhat inconsistent. These Pokemon may have flaws, but they have positive aspects which makes them stand out, making them valuable members of a team.
    • [​IMG] Gengar
    • [​IMG] Golem
    • [​IMG] Jynx
    • [​IMG] Lapras
    • [​IMG] Rhydon
    • [​IMG] Slowbro
    • [​IMG] Zapdos
    C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have solid niches in the RBY metagame, but nonetheless are generally inconsistent. These Pokemon have definite flaws, but may have positive aspects which can make them worth using.
    • [​IMG] Articuno
    • [​IMG] Cloyster
    • [​IMG] Dragonite
    • [​IMG] Hyno
    • [​IMG] Jolteon
    • [​IMG] Persian
    • [​IMG] Victreebel

    D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the RBY metagame, but are decent enough to pose a threat at times, usually out of surprise. These Pokemon have a small niche in the metagame and are often not worth using.
    • [​IMG] Dodrio
    • [​IMG] Dugtrio
    • [​IMG] Clefable
    • [​IMG] Gyarados
    • [​IMG] Kangaskhan
    • [​IMG] Kingler
    • [​IMG] Sandslash
    • [​IMG] Venusaur
    E Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are very mediocre, they are very dependent on surprising the opponent to pose any threat. These Pokemon are almost entirely outclassed, with little to no niche, they are rarely worth using.
    • [​IMG] Aerodactyl
    • [​IMG] Arcanine
    • [​IMG] Charizard
    • [​IMG] Golduck
    • [​IMG] Electrode
    • [​IMG] Nidoking
    • [​IMG] Ninetales
    • [​IMG] Machamp
    • [​IMG] Moltres
    • [​IMG] Poliwrath
    • [​IMG] Raichu
    • [​IMG] Tangela
    • [​IMG] Tentacruel
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2013
  2. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l

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    i almost want to see starmie, lapras, rhydon, and golem in their own rank, as the new C, giving you 1 extra rank. i think starmie is a lil worse than the rest of A and i think those other 3 are a lil more standard than the rest of C.
  3. Prosecutor Godot

    Prosecutor Godot

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    Any reason Chansey is A and not S? i could never imagine myself making an RBY team without Chansey, the ability to take paralysis and literally ANY special attack makes it way too valuable to not have. I would actually consider keeping it if I had to choose between it and Exeggutor, as valuable as sleep is.
  4. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Unless this gets support from much more people, I am not going to add another rank. This list already has, for all intents and purposes, one more rank than other lists of its kind. At best I may consider combining D and E to make sure of more defined upper rank, as the distinction there is really hazy. Unless it gets really problematic, the basic rank structure for now is staying.

    However, I am open to shuffling around Starmie, Rhydon, and Golem, I would like to see more discussion on the matter.

    The distinction is that one can not run Chansey on your team if you choose to in general. In contrast Tauros and Exeggutor almost always seem to find their way onto good teams. I know for example in an RMT team archive hidden somewhere in this forum, Exeggutor is literally on every team, and the only team without Tauros, had Persian. (I might dig up this thread later and posts a link to it)

    I don't necessarily disagree with this sentiment though, if more people push for it, I might more it up.

    Edit: Here is one archive I dug up by Pocket. I could of swore there wasn't another though... (and oops, one team didn't have Exeggutor, but it looks a tad bit essentric)
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
  5. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l

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    I wasn't really thinking about how many ranks there were overall or looking at the lower ranks. honestly, you might be able to get away with moving starmie down to B, then moving zapdos, jynx, slowbro, and MAYBE gengar (probably not but i have always been personally really down on gengar) down to C, then hypno, articuno down to D, but that would be much more complicated i guess.

    chansey is definitely fine as it is and it is not as much of a requirement as many silly rby players think it is. you can easily replace it with zam + a threat or two for starmie or something like that. nothing replaces exeggutor though. great stats, sleep, para, explosion, the safest (only 100% reliable) OU switchin for rhydon and golem, and a psychic resistance.
  6. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Tauros, Chansey, Snorlax, and Exeggutor all belong in S. TBH I think Chansey and Snorlax are the best of the four.

    Chansey is Chansey, it defines the whole meta. Chansey is the reason that physical attackers are even used. Alakazam is nowhere near as resilient and can't sponge STAB special moves the way Chansey can. Yes, you can build a team without Chansey, but you can also build a team without Tauros and I've topped the PO ladder with one before. It doesn't mean Tauros isn't good, and it doesn't mean Chansey isn't good either.

    Snorlax is the ultimate wallbreaker and check to everything. It's bulky, it hits damned hard, it can't easily be walled, and it's got STAB Selfdestruct to assure a trade. There is almost no reason not to use Snorlax - it'll basically always pull its own weight.

    Tauros hits everything, outspeeds most things, and can pull wins out of its arse. We know all that.

    Exeggutor is a jack-of-all-trades - bulk on both sides, super-strong STAB forcing defensive plays, sleep, explosion, paralysis, the only Ground-resist that isn't weak to Rock... it's great.


    As far as your lower ranks go, Cloyster and Dragonite stick out like sore thumbs in C-rank, and half of both your D-rank and E-rank clearly don't deserve to be on the list at all while some of your alleged E-ranks are more useful than some of your alleged D-ranks - I'd really suggest getting a clue before trying to be authoritative here.
  7. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Ok I am moving Chansey up to S-rank for now, although I would like to see more thoughts on the matter seeing as how it seems to be a bit of an issue.

    Idk about Snorlax, there are clearly many teams that are perfectly fine without it, it doesn't seem to be nearly on the same level at Exeggutor or Tauros.

    Wo wo man no need to get hostile here. What Pokemon in D and E do you want dropped or moved around? As I said the line there is rather blurry so I am open to moving them around.

    And yeah, I am bringing up Cloyster and Dragonite I agree they don't really belong there. If anyone wants them in C please discuss it. I know Mr. E thinks Jolteon is better than Cloyster from a thread I was browsing before. :p
  8. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    Tauros >= Eggy >>> Chansey > Snorlax

    Zam is better than Chansey because Zam is actually a threat. I'd switch their current placements. (Zam to S, Chansey to A.) Chansey doesn't really threaten anything except Starmie and it's the quintessential Snorlax bait. It's a great special sponge for supporting more physical-oriented teams (like back in the day when I liked running both Persian and Dodrio). Zam is still a pretty good special sponge on account of it being faster than everything, having the highest Special and Recover... but on account of it being faster than everything, having the highest Special and Psychic's 30% drops, Zam also kills shit.

    My personal list would be:

    S-Rank (brokemons): Tauros, Eggy, Zam
    A-Rank (strongmons): Zapdos (brokemon with a hard counter), Starmie, Snorlax, Slowbro (brokemon with multiple counters nobody uses except Starmie)
    B-Rank (decentmons): Gengar, Lapras, Jolteon, Golem, Rhydon, Persian, Jynx
    C-Rank (nichemons): Dragonite, Cloyster, Venusaur, Victreebel, Hypno, Sandslash, @:, Dodrio
    D-Rank (good-UUs-in-OUmons): Articuno, Gyarados, Ninetales, Tentacruel, Electrode, Clefable
    E-Rank: everything else who cares

    Only S is really ordered. Also, Golem/Rhydon are more like nichemons whose niche just happens to be incredibly important and Hypno is more of a D-ranker who deserves slightly better company, maybe Poliwrath too. (Dodrio and Sandslash are legit okay.)
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
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  9. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Zam has a hard counter, too, y'know.

    As for Cloyster and Dragonite, I meant that they're clearly better than most of the stuff you've put there in "C". AgiNite is annoying as fuck but it's also extremely deadly, and Cloyster's basically the one thing that outright beats Snorlax.

    EDIT: The list you've got is mostly what I'd have, but I'd stick Snorlax in S and Golem in A. Slowbro I personally think is probably A-rank material, but there'd be others who'd disagree.

    Things I don't think really belong on the list at all: Moltres (outclassed by Articuno in every way), Flareon (whyyyyy), Poliwrath/Golduck (Slowbro totally outclasses them), Omastar (if you want the typing, Kabutops at least has Swords Dance), Arcanine (Ninetales has a tiny niche as an anti-Jynx lead, Arcanine doesn't), Hitmonlee (again, whyyyyy) and probably Tangela (lovely stats, unique movepool, but it's really hard to make it accomplish much).
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
  10. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    idk about much of what Mr. E is suggesting, I might give it a closer look in the morning, a lot shifts there, I do like some of the suggestions though, a good portion are applicable if the D rank is filed down

    @magic9mushroom

    I wouldn't mind sticking Rhydon and Golem in A, especially since it looks pretty sparse now. There also seems to be a push for Slowbro in A.

    As for your D/E suggestions:
    -Moltres booted down to E, its still OK IMO
    -Flareon deleted
    -Poliwrath and Golduck to E (surprise value)
    -Omastar deleted (add Kabutops?)
    -Arcanine stays for now, mainly because of its oddly high usage, if I had an F rank, I would put it in there
    -Hitmonlee deleted
    -Tangela stays for now, surprise value niche

    I am going to sleep now.
  11. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Honestly, when I looked this over, I didn't really care too much about D and E ranks. At that point everything's basically garbage anyway.

    Also, this might seem like a weird and arbitrary principle, but I was working under the guideline that the rank list would follow a pyramid structure - i.e., Rank B would have more mons than Rank A, etc. The reason for this being that, as you go down in the viability rankings, you go from mons that clearly shape and define the metagame to more of a muddle of "yeah I guess that's viable" mons. So when I see C being way smaller than B, it just seems awkward.
  12. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    What is this "surprise value" thing? Poliwrath and Golduck have all of one set, just like Slowbro does. But Slowbro's better at using that set because it's got a higher base Special, it can actually stand up to physical attacks, and it's got Psychic resistance (why is this a thing? Zam switches in on Poliwrath and murders it even through Amnesia).

    Surprising someone doesn't actually accomplish anything on its own, you've got to have some kind of unique effect to surprise them with. If something's totally outclassed, it's totally outclassed. This would be like me using Kadabra instead of Alakazam for "surprise value". It doesn't actually accomplish anything that Zam wouldn't have done anyway.
  13. Dre89

    Dre89

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    Poliwrath actually has niche uses outside of amnesia. In the one set it can sleep and have good MUs with the three staple normals, plus OHKO rocks. It's still garbage though, but it's not like golduck who can do nothing but be an inferior slowbro.

    Snorlax is definitely S for me. Lax has gimmick sets that if set up with no counters can sweep an entire team of healthy pokemon (I've done it before). It also has a lot of versatility, and fits into team strategies other than 'paralyse everything and sweep with tauros'. It has the highest potential threat level in OU if the opponent doesnt have the approriate counters to its gimmick sets, its threat is just too high to not be S.

    The rocks, gengar and zapdos are easily C for me. Also eggy should be A, not S. It's less important in the wrap meta, plus it is a generally overrated pokemon. Still very good, but it's not a tier above the likes of zam, and definitely not a tier above the likes of starmie and lapras.

    Bel is easily B at least as well. In the wrap meta it's just as good as eggy, it just plays differently (people like to compare them because of the grass typing).

    There really isn't much difference between A and B tier if you remove the pokemon I mentioned above. There's probably more I disagree with on the list that I can't think of now.
  14. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    None of those things are strictly outclassed the way Kadabra is by Zam. Poliwrath has its Counter set. Golduck can outspeed things that could otherwise Explode on a Slowbro that's setting up. Tangela is a Grass-type, Double-Powdering, Egg-outspeeding trapper with a better defensive typing than Victreebel at the cost of Razor Leaf.

    They're not great, but they have little things going for them that can mess you up if you're expecting the more standard dudes.
    Princess Bubblegum likes this.
  15. Dre89

    Dre89

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    Tangela is at least the best switch into goldon in the game when you consider the offensive pressure it generates, and is generally more difficult to switch into than eggy due to bind.
  16. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Fun fact, if we were to listen to everyone suggestions, no Pokemon would be A rank. I am considering making S rank mono-Tauros again because it seems like it is just becoming the 'my preferred dangerous Pokemon rank.' I mean seriously guys, Tauros, Exeggutor, Chansey, Alakazam and Snorlax are not all S.

    This is what I am thinking about:
    S-Tauros
    A-RBY Staples: Snorlax, Alakazam, Exeggutor, Chansey and maybe Starmie

    Zapdos, Rhydon, and Golem have all been suggested as high as A to C... they are staying B for now lol.

    I am thinking about formating the B/C/D ranks more like Mr. E's ranks, basically like:
    B: decent OU Pokemon, but they aren't on my every team: Gengar, Lapras, Rhydon, Golem, Jynx, Persian
    C: good lower tier Pokemon: Cloyster, Dragonite, Victrebel, Articuno, Hypno, Jolteon
    D: niche Pokemon: whatever

    I would like thoughts on this as it would make some pretty radical rank shifts as well as adjusting the rank descriptions, I think it would be better in the long term though.
  17. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Yeah, that works, one thing about the viability rankings right now is that 1) it probably puts too much emphasis on "surprise" for lower-tier mons and 2) too much emphasis on usage in general when the whole point of something like this is to establish power independent of usage (at least in theory).

    The lower "whatever" tier could be trimmed significantly with a revamped list. There's way too many right now. I'd suggest actually keeping the D "whatever" tier blank and just putting mons into S-C for now, and then let community discussion suss out what deserves even a sliver of a mention in D tier and what does not.

    Gyarados for C tier in the revamped list, though. It's seriously pretty dangerous. While it doesn't have the Speed or Crit Rate of Persian and Jolteon, it makes up for it by not having a real hardwall and having a type immunity to abuse on the switch-in. So it's honestly roughly on par with other C mons and definitely better than those other chumps currently in D tier.
  18. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Ok I made most of those changes and fixed up the descriptions to make them less about how used they are and more about the Pokemon themselves. I decided to keep Persian in C after writing its description.

    Ill keep D rank open for now, if anyone want a Pokemon from E up there just say so, tossed Electrode up there as Mr. E suggested, idk about Tentacruel, Ninetales, and Sandslash though.

    edit: never mind about electrode

    Moved Gyarados to.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
  19. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Oh wow. I disagree with Electrode in D tier. It's seriously awful. Like, the only thing that makes it even remotely viable is the likelihood of a critical Explosion, which Rhydon takes like a champ anyway.
  20. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    What makes you think Tauros deserves that rank more than Snorlax or Chansey?
  21. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados

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    I know that when it comes to D vs E it's essentially nitpicking garbage, and I've personally never used Raichu, but based on D's description, should Raichu belong in D instead of E? (Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the RBY metagame, but are decent enough to pose a threat at times, usually out of surprise. These Pokemon have a small niche in the metagame and are often not worth using.)

    Raichu actually has a niche - the only electric-type not walled by grounds, which means it can "safely" spread paralysis via t-wave, since you wouldn't switch a ground type in to absorb it because the faster Raichu would just surf you out. And it has that ~20% crit rate. If you wait to bust out your Raichu until you've taken care of Eggy (and even then you could run S-Toss and take out a weakened Eggy by surprise) and Chansey, Raichu could be dangerous (it threatens out a LOT of the B and C ranked mons, interestingly enough). I'm not advocating using Raichu, but it does seem to fit the definition of D better than E.

    On a more relevant note, you've got all your main wrappers grouped together in C - I've seen some arguments to bump some of them up, but I think they're appropriate there. Say whatever you want about the usefulness, effectiveness, or whateverness of wrap, but it IS a niche, and the description of C is for Pokemon with solid niches.

    I agree that Poliwrath has surprise value, esp with Hypnosis. I'm not sure I agree Golduck belongs on this list, though. Yes it's faster than Slowbro, but without Slowbro's bulk Tauros makes short work of it before it can set up. I dunno, a Poliwrath has caught me off guard before, but I've never been threatened by a Golduck.

    I think you did a great job with this list Scarfwynaut, I don't know why some people are being dicks. This is fun!
  22. Dre89

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    I think it should be specified that this should be for non-wrap, because this list has a huge bias towards that meta and you can tell whoever constructed it hasn't played wrap extensively.

    Golden Gyara- Raichu is still absolutely terrible though, as it is countered by basically every special in the meta apart from water types, so it doesn't spread paralysis to anything that wouldn't normally get paralysed anyway.

    Honestly anything below BL pokemon like gyara, hypno and venusaur is garbage and doesn't need to be on this list. The reason being that the only players who could make pokemon like them work would be skilled and experienced enough to have their own opinions on viability rankings anyway. Compacting this to only pokemon that matter in the meta is much more benefitial for new players.

    Wrap is only considered a niche because it hasn't been played much due to either being banned or it not working properly on the simulators. If both of those issues were removed, wrap would've been far more popular and more than just a niche. Bel, cloyster and dragonite are easily on par with pokemon like starmie and zam, they just offer so much control and pressure. I don't understand how something that many people deemed ban-worthy could only be C tier.

    In my opinion B and C and really poorly done. Jynx, lapras and slowbro all belong in A (yes slowbro is considered a noob pokemon, but it is still effective), and bel cloyster, persian and dragonite are a rank above the likes of golem rhydon and gengar,

    I honestly don't think tauros is a tier above other pokemon with wrap legal, because in that meta it actually has to compete for its spot. Most people think of dragonite, but persian and even things like dodrio can contest his position due to be being much more viable now that they can switch in free of harm, and have perks over him. If you are going to put tauros in a separate tier, snorlax should be with him too. Snorlax is equally, if not more threatening offensively, and also has bulk and more versatility, and also doesn't need to avoid paralysis like it's the plague.

    Chansey is good but not on the level of the other two normals. Her role can be filled by two psychics, or even just zam on his own, and she invites offensive pressure onto her team. Many advanced teams are often based around using chansey as an offensive pivot, so to me she's not S tier for that reason.
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  23. Prosecutor Godot

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    I can't agree that Chansey isn't on the level of the other 2 normals. Her role can be filled by two psychics, but not nearly as well. All of them lack the special bulk that Chansey does. Eggy is more prone to being worn down and Alakazam/Starmie hate Paralysis more. not sure what you mean by "invites offensive pressure" either.
  24. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Reiterating that I'd lop off E tier completely and let the community decide what deserves mention in D. As it stands there's way too many mons on this list.
  25. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    He means that Chansey's non-STAB moves don't have the same deterrent effect as Alakazam's Psychic to stop, say, Snorlax from switching in and pounding away. While this is true, what's also true is that Zam, particularly paralysed Zam, can't safely switch into STAB special moves (apart from Psychics) because plenty of them 3HKO it (Lapras' or Jynx's Blizzard, Starmie's Hydro Pump, usually Zapdos's Thunderbolt, and potentially Razor Leaf). It's also a lot more vulnerable to physical attacks when it hasn't got Reflect up - Snorlax even has a chance at an OHKO with Hyper Beam, and Exeggutor gets a guaranteed 3HKO with Double-Edge. And, on top of that, the very same dominance of Psychics that lets Alakazam wall things also means that it itself is easily walled. Any other Psychic can sit in front of Zam for a loooong while, and Slowbro can even set up on it (whereas a Slowbro switching into a Chansey's Thunderbolt will probably outright lose).

    Zam's damned good, but Chansey's what makes RBY... RBY.

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