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Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Princess Bubblegum, Aug 7, 2013.
do this : )
Zam should always be running reflect unless it's a leadzam. It's stallable, but at the cost of getting their specials paralysed in return for only paralysing one of yours, which is still a late-game threat even when paralysed.
I'm starting to feel that zam is S tier level because you're handicapping yourself if you don't use him. The difference is that zam requires more skill to be S tier quality than the normals, but is more consistent in return.
I agree that Raichu should be moved higher. It's definitely more useful than Electrode and most of the other E pokemon.
Electrode is better than raichu because of its speed and explosion.
Surf means nothing when half a standard team can switch into raichu and beat it comfortably.
In many cases, luring rocks is good (depending on your team) because of how bad they are 1v1 with like everything in the meta and how much offensive pressure they invite due to having to switch out all the time.
It's almost like you think lacking coverage is an asset. If it's not going to be attacking, he's just not doing enough for your team. Raichu is way better because he can actually attack and have it be worth something.
So use Jolteon, which has better coverage and much higher Special (and effectively the same Speed: "enough"). Electrode's Explosion is useless because it will only hit Rocks - as such it's strictly inferior.
Raichu is more useful than Electrode because Raichu, unlike Electrode, actually has a use.
Zam beats Tauros and Lax half the time anyway and the former crits too much to even bother using Reflect unless you're PAR and caught Tauros on the switch with it maybe. Golem/Rhydon are 2HKOed. Zam's only real weakness is Psychic doesn't have infinite PP, need Seismic Toss just to conserve that shit against other Psychics. It's probably the best overall mon in RBY, it just isn't the same raw offensive threat that Tauros is because Tauros is a fast and powerful neutral physical attacker while Zam has to slog through other Zam, Starmie, etc.
I'd almost say Electrode is better than Raichu in the event your opponent isn't using Rhydon/Golem because Raichu is just... practically worthless in all regards. At least Electrode is fast. On the other hand, Raichu can at least paralyze shit against the majority of players that do use them because Surf makes RG unable to switch in. (Of course, why you'd use either over Jolteon or Zapdos is baffling.)
QFT. The difference in Special really shows; Raichu's STAB Thunderbolt just doesn't have the punch of those two.
I'd make chansey S and rhydon A.
Yeah Raichu is poo, as someone said in another thread "it doesn't matter if your the only Electric that can touch Golem / Rhydon, half of their teams walls it anyway."
As for Electrode, being the fastest Pokemon in the metagame with access to Explosion is certainly a passable niche, I might push it up if it gets more support.
Also, for the record, unless someone makes some sort of ground breaking post about Golem vs Rhydon, they are definitely staying in the same rank, the differences between them are no where near enough to justify an entire rank difference, not to mention that would be the utmost hubris in rank splitting.
This may appear to be a odd question, but why is Zapdos B-Rank and not A-Rank?
Rhydon/Golem hardwall it (Drill Peck does ~10% vs. STAB Rock Slide 2HKO), difficulty getting past Chansey (Drill Peck's only a 3HKO, so Chansey needs to FP at the right time; also, Chansey can 3HKO back with Ice Beam). Relative difficulty switching in thanks to Blizzard everywhere. No reliable recovery since Sleep Talk doesn't exist yet.
I don't see how raichu is more useful than electrode. Raichu's offence is mediocre, electrode at least has some form of genuine offence with a fast explosion, which is useful if rocks aren't around. Raichu is still mediocre even when rocks are gone.
If you're using pokemon with mediocre offensive capabilities (which both of them have) you don't use them to attack, you use them for defensive purposes or as lures. Electrode baits rocks, which is normally better than baiting specials, and is also more unique, as it is already easy to bait specials.
Asterat- Rhydon shouldn't be A because it loses to nearly everything 1v1 and is KOd by everything in 2-3 turns. It KOs many things in the same amount of turns, but those pokemon are normally faster.
Mr E.- No one ever is going to switch zam in on tauros and then reflect. Reflectzam is used in one of two ways. Either you send it mid-game on a special, reflect first turn to deter physical switch-ins, and then attempt to spread paralysis past their chansey by forcing switches with spc downs. The other way to use it as an end-game sweeper once specials are down. You keep it unparalysed and send it in after a KO and use your speed advantage on tauros to reflect before taking a hit and hope tauros doesn't crit.
Yeah, there's a pretty even split on the age-old debate of Rhydon v. Golem, so they're roughly equal in power and need to be in the same rank.
As for Electrode, please don't make it any higher than garbage tier. Even if it is somehow more useful than Raichu (who also is and should be garbage tier in this list), it's by a very marginal amount.
I think generally the consensus on Rhydon v Golem is that Golem's more defensive and Rhydon's more offensive - Golem's got Explosion as a panic button, but Rhydon can break through Egg more easily and hurt other things more.
Oh, and Golem can be used to revenge-kill Rhydon, whereas the other way around doesn't work too well.
From personal experience, I think that Raticate belongs in D Rank. It is similar to Kanghaskhan: it's outclassed by Tauros, but it can be used if you simply don't want to use Tauros. Raticate also has a personal move, Super Fang, that will always rip 50% off the opponent's health, even on Gengar (so like full health goes down to half, and 80% health goes down to 40% health). However, it is very fragile, and wants faster opponents, especially Starmie and Alakazam, removed. However, unlike threats like Charizard and Electrode, Raticate is guaranteed to cause problems for at least one Pokemon on the opponent's team. It puts a lot of pressure on Exeggutor, Lapras, and Snorlax, giving them problems switching in on it, it has Bubblebeam to deal with Golem and Rhydon, and Gengar is too afraid of Super Fang to switch in. Its base 97 speed is also not that bad, as it outspeeds Jynx, and it is enough to keep her from attempting to switch in on a Bubblebeam. Overall, Raticate is not the best Pokemon around, but it is definitely D-Rank worthy, as has enough to keep it with being groupped up with shitty mons like Poliwrath and Raichu that have no place on an OU team.
Super Fang is nice, but it basically amounts to you sacrificing a full teamslot for half an opponent's Pokemon (or more if your opponent decides to bumble around Raticate instead of just biting the bullet and attacking it). I see where you're coming from, but Raticate is seriously too fragile and too terrible in every way except for access to Super Fang to honestly warrant a bump.
But it is better than shit like Raichu and deserves some mention on the thread
I wouldn't mind adding Raticate to D really, it was actually on the initial list I had went over with Jorgen. I would like to see some other thoughts on the matter though, I have limited experience against the rat.
Keep in mind, D tier is basically the trash tier Pokemon that may be OK, so I am not at all opposed to throwing Pokemon in there.
Dragonite and Cloyster in C rank? C'mon!
Wrap and Clamp are so good that a lot of communities outright BAN them. I'm not saying that they should be S, but at least up to B.
The most popular opinion is that Wrap has a high ceiling but a low floor. When it works, you cruise to victory, but when it doesn't, the mons that use partial trapping moves tend to die because of their BoltBeam weakness, lack of Psychic resistance, and extreme aversion to paralysis. The stuff above them might not have the same maximum cheese factor, but they're certainly more consistent.
At least Cloyster can switch on Tauros/Snorlax in a pinch and bring a freeze/explosion, so I think it's still a pretty useful Pokemon.
Dragonite and Cloyster aren't that much more inconsistent than Slowbro, TBQH. Dragonite in particular sticks out like a sore thumb in the same tier as Persian and non-OUs like Hypno. By the standards of this list, it should be B rank. So should Cloyster - Lapras vs. Cloyster is an actual Decision the same way Golem vs. Rhydon is a Decision.
Type aside, Lapras is a lot more comparable to Starmie than Cloyster. It's a legitimate, generally good pokémon. Cloyster is... niche anti-Tauros/Snorlax tech with a Wrap gimmick. I have to give Clamp credit for not being weak as balls but Cloyster's Special bulk is still relatively bad and lack of Tbolt makes it too easily walled by everything it can't outspeed and Clamp to death, and it can't induce paralysis (one of the only mons in OU that can't) to help itself in that regard.
Dragonite is worthless if not for said gimmick but it's very good at executing and abusing it. It's basically VGC Dark Void Smeargle, a pain in the ass that isn't objectively great but dangerous and cheesy enough to force everyone to be prepared for it, complete with occasionally losing on its own due to accuracy issues. The only inconsistency about Slowbro is hoping Starmie doesn't crit before it's ready to sweep most teams.
Cloyster is legit good because it's the only thing that can force Lax out. Everything else, Lax either beats outright or blows up on; Cloyster can stop Lax from blowing up thanks to Clamp being basically Surf-with-a-75%-flinch-rate. Clamp also allows Cloyster to switch out for free, which makes its pitiful Special bulk a lot less relevant. And it can blow up, which means that unlike Lapras it can actually guarantee that Chansey goes down - parafusion is cool and all, but a 5HKO is still awfully hard to pull off.
Lapras is certainly better than Cloyster by itself, but Cloyster's a better team player and thus Lapras vs. Cloyster is a Decision.
Thunderbolt Chansey is stupid common and it'll generally get 3-4 Thunderbolts in on Slowbro - enough to make it inconsistent. Slowbro vs. Tauros is also kinda chancy. There's also its tendency to get Exploded on and die thanks to its awful Speed. It's not AS inconsistent as the Wrappers can be, but it's certainly not a whole rank better than Dragonite.
As I recall, I posted my own ranking somewhere else on this board, and it basically went:
S Tier: Lax/Chansey/Tauros/Egg
A Tier: Mie/Zam/Gol/Don/Bro/Nite
B Tier: Jynx/Cloy/Pras/Zap/Gar
C Tier: Persian/Jolt/Coon/Bel
D Tier: who gives a fuck