Data Referee Training Grounds (READ: New Guidelines 10/28/2011)

Discussion in 'ASB' started by Deck Knight, Feb 13, 2011.

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  1. Venser

    Venser

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    It's what you send in to the ref that determines your team for the battle.
  2. Nightmare Jigglypuff

    Nightmare Jigglypuff

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
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    836
    i think it would be cool to referee.

    Availibilty:
    Monday: 9:00 AM - 4:00 PM
    Tuesday: 9:30 AM - 7:00 PM
    Wednesday: always varies, but usually 9:00 AM - 3:00 PM
    Thursday: 9:30 AM - 2:00 PM
    Friday: 9:00 AM - 9:00 PM and maybe longer.
    Saturday: if ever, 9:00 AM - 12:00 PM

    EDIT: oh, sundays i'm pretty much never on.
  3. doominic77

    doominic77

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    Another question: What happens if a pokemon get paryalyzed by 10% paralysis and then by 20% paralysis before the 10% paralysis wears off?
  4. Fire Blast

    Fire Blast

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    Jul 11, 2010
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    I'll apply. I'm not the most available person, but this does sound interesting.

    Availability:

    Weekdays: 3-4 and 8-10 usually (GMT-8)
    Friday: 3-5 and sometimes later (GMT-8)
    Saturday: Usually all day (GMT-8)
    Sunday: 3-10 usually (GMT-8)




    Ref counters: 24
  5. Showsni

    Showsni

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    867
    I'm applying to referee.

    Availability:
    (GMT (currently BST))
    Nearly all evenings, and every day of the week. I can also manage to get on during the day pretty much every day of the week, and I'm pretty flexible about being able to get on at specific times if necessary. I do have a prior engagement from 13th to 20th of April, though, so would be unlikely to be able to get on during that time period.
  6. Berserker Lord

    Berserker Lord unreliable analysis writer.

    Joined:
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  7. Kannon

    Kannon

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    apply directly to the referee thread!

    Availbility: 3:30 PM EST - 11 PM EST Mon - Thu, 3:30 PM EST - 1 AM EST Fri, 12 PM - 1 AM Sat, 12 PM -- 11 PM Sun
  8. LupusAter

    LupusAter

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2009
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    1,069
    I would like to try being a referee. First time doing anything of the sort, but I'm a decent writer and I love battle scenes.
    Availability: (GMT +1)
    Mon-Sat: 15.00-21.00 (variable, but at least once a day I'm in)
    Sun: Pretty much all day (more likely early afternoon)

    Can I start right away, or I have to wait for approval?

    Completed battles:
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3428079
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103210
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103435
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103480
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3447339
    Ongoing battles:
  9. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random Is armed with many Honedges
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
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    Ehhh...I might as well take up reffing...

    Rank: Tutor Referee
    Apprentices: TEA DEMON, Maxim
    Timezone: GMT +10 (April-September) or GMT +11 (October-March)
    Availability: This is variable, but I'm on pretty much every day, but no later than 9PM most days.
    Reffed Battles (open)
    CURRENT
    None.

    PAST
    iiMKUltra vs. Nightmare Jigglypuff (1v1 Singles) - Won by iiMKUltra 1-0
    Frosty vs. Doran Dragon (2v2 Doubles) - Won by Frosty 2-0
    porygon3 vs. Venser (1v1 Singles) - Won by Venser 1-0
    Athenodoros vs. Rittercat (1v1 Singles) - Won by Athenodoros 1-0
    Lord Jesseus vs. Bad Ass (3v3 Singles) - Lord Jesseus won by DQ
    GoldenKnight vs. Temperantia (4v4 Singles) - Won by GoldenKnight 1-0
    Solstice vs. Athenodoros (4v4 Doubles) - Won by Athenodoros 2-0
    iiMKUltra vs. Lord Jesseus (6v6 Doubles) - iiMKUltra won by DQ
    Galladiator vs. deadfox081 (1v1 Singles) - Won by deadfox081 1-0
    Rittercat vs. Dummy007 (3v3 Singles) - Won by Rittercat 2-0
    HD vs. Fire Blast (3v3 Singles) - Won by HD 1-0
    Deck Knight vs. Dummy007 (4v4 Doubles) - Won by Deck Knight 2-0
    Texas Cloverleaf vs. Steampowered (2v2 Singles) - Won by Steampowered 1-0
    deadfox081 vs. Lyris1035 (3v3 Doubles) - Won by deadfox081 2-0
    TravelLog vs. BiGGiE (2v2 Doubles) - Won by TravelLog 2-0
    Lord Jesseus vs. Maxim (1v1 Singles) - Won by Maxim 1-0
    Fire Blast & rewindman vs. shadowbone66 & PinkCaptainFalcon (1v1+1v1 Tag Team Doubles) - Fire Blast & rewindman won by DQ
    Leethoof vs. Paradoxus (2v2 Doubles) - Won by Leethoof 2-0
    Albinoloon vs. ToastTyrant13 (3v3 Singles) - Won by Albinoloon 1-0
    Doran Dragon vs. LevitatingLamprey (1v1 Singles) - LevitatingLamprey won by forfeit
    AlphaJolt vs. Galladiator (2v2 Singles) - Won by AlphaJolt 1-0
    Alchemator vs. iiMKUltra (3v3 Singles) - Won by Alchemator 1-0
    Texas Cloverleaf vs. Son_of_Shadoo (4v4 Singles) - Won by Son_of_Shadoo 2-0
    Destiny Warrior vs. LevitatingLamprey (4v4 Singles) - LevitatingLamprey won by forfeit
    deadfox081 vs. Dummy007 (4v4 Singles) - deadfox081 won by DQ
    Dummy007 vs. deadfox081 (4v4 Singles) - Won by deadfox081 2-0
    Terrador vs. Metal Bagon (1v1 Singles) - Won by Terrador 1-0
    Engineer Pikachu's 3k Melee (2v2v2v2v2v2 Melee Singles) - Won by Glacier Knight 1-0-0-0-0-0 (Subref, Subsubsubref)
    UllarWarlord vs. danmantincan (2v2 Doubles) - UllarWarlord won by DQ
    King Serperior vs. TheMogRunner (3v3 Singles) - Won by King Serperior 1-0
  10. Galladiator

    Galladiator

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    I'll try reffing a bit.

    Availability: 5:30 - 6:00 AM, 2:45ish - 4:30 or so PM weekdays, variable weekends (rarely if ever on Sunday)

    Time Zone: GMT -6 (US Central)

    Battles Reffing:

    (none yet)
  11. IceBug

    IceBug

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    Jun 16, 2008
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    543
  12. porygon3

    porygon3

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    I'm going to try to ref

    Time Zone: Central (GMT -6)

    Availability: pretty much any time in the afternoons every day except Tuesday/Thursday (late afternoon those days) until 11pm or so, later on weekends. Obviously not online the whole time though
  13. RitterCat

    RitterCat
    is an Artistis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus
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  14. Flora

    Flora Yep, that tasted purple!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus
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    Just a friendly reminder to stick within the boundaries of not only ASB logic and data but your chosen arena. Try to avoid situations where "you think it's right". Head Smashing something onto a wall shouldn't inflict confusion (maybe additional damage though). Surf shouldn't slow down your opponent's Speed. If the arena is a dark cave, Synthesis shouldn't heal 20% health but 10% health. If Slowking uses Ice Beam on a Cradily, it's super effective, not neutral. If you have already done something like this, it's okay to leave it alone, but just don't do it again in the future.

    Darkslay has asked me to put what's allowed and what's not allowed in terms of breaking mechanics. It would be lovely if every ref could obey the mechanics listed within the sticky threads, but sometimes, there isn't enough details. For instance, Fire Spin (and those similar to it) traps the opposing Pokemon. In ASB logic, this Pokemon should really be trapped. It would need to be able to somehow avoid the fire via a method of travel (Dig or Agility evasion). If it's caught, it will probably need to break out of the trap with brute force. The Pokemon won't be able to use physical moves during the trap. At the same time, however, the one who shot the Fire Spin out will be unable to use physical attacks as well. This leads to a special attacking being the choice of move, which would definitely cripple some Pokemon that depend on physical attacking. For any issues similar to this example, unless some awesome proposal is made, I'd just like to say that you can probably exert some creativity in how to deal with the trap. Maybe the Pokemon can somehow still attack physically through the Fire Spin while still being trapped, or must exert more energy in a move to blow the Fire Spin away. Just don't make Fire Spin burn the foe or something (okay, it would seem in real life that it would definitely seem possible, but ASB and anime in general is kinda different from that - there are rules and data listed that must be followed).

    There's another thing I've encountered too (and I've personally done, but now I don't think it was right to do that). Physical moves against physical moves. If it's like Body Slam vs Tackle and the Pokemon with Body Slam has more Attack, the Pokemon using Tackle shouldn't be completely negated (unless paralysis happened or something). The Pokemon Tackling should still get in that hit. I can see where it's coming from if both Pokemon were attacking at the same time (Body Slam crush onto ground and applying full pressure on the Tackling Pokemon!), but most Pokemon have different Speed than others and it's likely that it should just be "Pokemon A attacks then Pokemon B attacks" and not them at the same time (unless it would aesthetically not interfere with the ending result).

    Feel free to add on with your own experience and opinions. Probably going to keep editing this if there isn't anyone posting. Unless I am sleeping and have a need to study for a midterm tomorrow...

    edit: Stuff like "plug you ears to avoid hearing Yawn" shouldn't be allowed, unless it's aided by a move.
  15. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    Something must be done about how to handle speed boosts.

    This is what now says the CAP Data Audit thread about speed:

    Nothing about how this translate into numbers is specified. Moreover I disagree with the content, too. First of all, I don't agree with speed boosts not making Pokémon faster. That's the entire point of them, basically, and it would severely go against in-game experience - which, while not bad in itself, it should be something we should avoid whenever we can. Secondary of all, making speed boosts raising the might of physical attackers not only unjustifiably biases the entire stat towards physical sweepers, it could potentially make Dragon Dance unhealthy.

    So, what to do? We could go with the in-game precedence, but it should quickly become obvious that it would severely diminish the effectiveness of speed boosting compared to how it works in-game.

    Take a Pokémon with base 50 speed (neutral nature). In ASB, Rock Polish/Agility would boost his speed to base 100. But is that what happens in-game? Base 50 speed with max EVs gives 199 speed. After a +2 boost it becomes 398. That's almost as much as a Base 150 speed stat (neutral nature). Without assuming EVs, the difference is less steep, but still significant. Base 50 speed with 0 EVs equals 136 base speed. After a +2 boost it becomes 272 - which is the correspondant value of a base 118 stat. Considering Speed is way less influent in ASB than in-game as of now, the difference in power should be even more apparent.

    So, what to do? My proposals are:

    1) Let's have speed boost speed only, but let's make the speed boost more steep. A decent compromise in my opinion would be raising the boost by 50%. Then we would get the following chart:

    -6 -82%
    -5 -79%
    -4 -75%
    -3 -70%
    -2 -60%
    -1 -43%
    +1 +75%
    +2 +150%
    +3 +225%
    +4 +300%
    +5 +375%
    +6 +450%

    2) Keep boosts as they work currently, but give also a slight boost in accuracy. It could be something like +4% or +5% per stat boost.

    Personally I'd go with option 1), mainly for a reason. Any choice akin to 2) (i.e. making speed boosts affect something else, too) would affect Pokémon also in the reverse way, in the case of negative boosts. This, in the case of speed boosting accuracy, could give moves like Scary Face a much unwanted boost.

    EDIT: Also, another thing I want to point out regards so called "combo-moves". I have no qualms against moves which are used in a creative way to create a sort of combo - say, using a Flamethrower to set something on fire, or even using Ice Beam to skate on frozen water. However, combo moves which utilizes to moves in the same action should be strictly forbidden. Stuff like Rapid Spin + Hydro Pump to spread the attack around should not be allowed.

    Before uproar ensues, let me explain why. With each week passing, the need for impartial reffing rises. Think to the tournament we scheduled for May 20th. You explicitly say that "if bias [in reffing] is shown there will be unnamed consequences.". How can you tell if the referees are biased of not when you include arbitrary stuff like this? Say someone wants to use combo move 1 + move 2. Now, the referee could either allow it or refuse it, on some kind of basis (trust me, it's not hard to come up for a reason to allow/disallow EVERY type of combo you can think up, or almost). Now, who you are to judge if he did it using his own judgement or out of bias towards the unfavoured player?

    Not only you end up allowing biased referees (if there are any) much more leeway than they would have otherwise, you put an unhealthy pressure on "honest" referees, who risk on each "personal call" to be accused of bias. For the better good, we should strive to standardize refering situations as much as we can, and for this reason combo moves have to go.

    EDIT2: After speaking through IRC, I decided to retire my concern about combo moves. After all, we have means to decide in an impartial way.
  16. elDino

    elDino Deal With It.
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    elDino, the fastest ref on ASB. If you want a speed reffing done and I'm online and I have time, just drop me a VM.

    I am de referee :P

    Time zone: GMT +8
    Availability: 4:00 - 8:00PM on weekdays, all night on Friday, all of Saturday and most of Sunday.

    Current Battles:

    Completed Battles:

    Flamestrike vs. Destiny Warrior
    JBCWK vs. Venser
    Athenodoros vs. iiMKUltra
    Son_of_Shadoo_vs._Rising_Dusk
    Deck_Knight vs. Destiny_Warrior
    Destiny Warrior vs. Zarator
    playforkeeps123 vs. RitterCat
    Athenodoros vs. Banryu (Only reffed the beginning due to real life problems).
    Terrador14 vs. TravelLog (The fastest ASB reffing ever, a whole 1v1 match in just under 30 minutes xD)
    Athenodoros vs. Venser
    Pippy vs. Destiny_Warrior

    Subway Reffings:

    Acklow
    Lord Jesseus
    iiMKUltra

    Tutor Reffings:

    Lyris1035

    Battle Hall Reffings:

    C$FP
    Lyris1035
  17. JBCWK

    JBCWK

    Joined:
    May 3, 2010
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    88
    Extremely inexperienced, but I suppose I could give this a shot.

    Timezone: GMT +8
    Availability:

    Monday: 4pm ~ 8pm
    Tuesday: 11pm
    Wednesday, Thursday: 3pm ~ 8pm
    FRIDAY: 7pm ~ 8pm
    Weekends: Extremely varied, but I will be able to get on.

    Current Battles:

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3446688

    Completed Battles:
  18. rickheg

    rickheg

    Joined:
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    I want to try my hand at reffing.

    As for now, I'm available every day. On weekdays other than Tuesday, I am currently available pretty much all day. Even on Tuesdays, I can get on at some point during the day. Weekends will vary, but I can usually slip online at least once a day. I'm at EST

    current battles (open)


    completed battles (open)
  19. Romeert

    Romeert

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
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    368
  20. Flora

    Flora Yep, that tasted purple!
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    So, a reffing hierarchy, huh? I think I'll just put some names down as a Reffing Staff if that person wants to be in (yes/no thing). If you think you're dedicated, active, and experienced at reffing but are not listed, then post! You don't have to have the most beautiful works, but if they're consistently good, then sure.

    Reffing Staff?

    Darkamber8828
    Athenodoros
    zarator

    Probably on the border (improve a bit in the future with dedication/activity/or experience and you'll probably be a Reffing Staff!)

    Engineer Pikachu
    danmantincan
    Venser
    Acklow

    Eyes on

    Alchemator
    Destiny Warrior
    -Charmander-

    (idk, felt the need to make another section, poor peeps)

    Otherwise, I think I'll name everyone else who posted here as a Ref Apprentice. Well, IDK what to do with the secretaries, head approver, and RD. They got their own stuff to do but they're great. I guess you guys can just post and help out even if you aren't listed (I know Kaxtar and DarkSlay are listed as an apprentice). Wyverri would've been great too (where she go?).

    Our sole job is to make our jobs easier! And other refs's jobs too of course. If there are weird/broken mechanics/moves/abilities, bring them up for discussion and we'll attempt to fix them. We can also give vague moves more information and maybe even make them a little bit different than before (maybe). We will also keep an eye out for oddities happening in other people's reffings and attempt to fix them up. Oh, and we'll help the ref apprentices throughout the reffings.

    Thanks for having an interest in reading this post!

    And I'll end this post by saying we all make mistakes. =) I make a bit too much, hehe. It's great that we can cover our backs when they happen though (don't get too heated over such mistakes!).
  21. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

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    Flora the only reason you make a few too many mistakes is that you ref way too many battles.

    Also, I don't know why we need a hierarchy.
  22. Flora

    Flora Yep, that tasted purple!
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    Deck told me to... =(

    If you guys don't feel like we need one, we can call off the idea and protest against Deck (and get a raise!)! You guys (I mean any ref) can just post here if there's something weird going on with reffing and I'll attempt to fix it (or someone else who's really good/good).

    I need my sleep, so I'll check this tomorrow and see if I can add some more stuff.
  23. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight prominent CAP users
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    Flora is the boss.

    Basically whatever she does has my endorsement. The point is to continuously get better, and it's difficult for someone who isn't dedicated to it (read: me, since I have a hand in every pot) to ensure that kind of quality. Don't take any criticism personally, it's about improving the quality as much as possible.
  24. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    I was hoping I wouldn't have to confront this topic in a thread, but it seems that now I must. I've spoken with Deck personally about this numerous times in the past, and we've both had good banter and serious talks about reffing in ASB. I won't drag his opinion too far into this, but walking into this discussion, I want to make it known that Deck has endorsed my way of thinking in the exceptional cases I will describe, and so it is substantiated by people in power if it comes to that.

    Anyway, I'm the guy who talked about it on IRC and DarkSlay raged at over this. I've definitely caused a Hi Jump Kick (it wasn't Head Smash!) to inflict confusion before because it chucked a Pokemon clear across the arena and into a wall. When I talked to Deck about it, he said that he would've personally made the struck Pokemon sluggish, but that confusion was a perfectly legitimate interpretation. Secondly, I strongly endorse breaking type immunities and resistances in certain exceptional cases. I want something like "AIM FOR THE HORN!" to be re-creatable in ASB, and being totally type-rigid prevents that. One day, a Pikachu will use Thundershock on a Rhydon, and I will make it 4x super effective and a guaranteed critical hit because that would be amazing (and it would be hilarious to actually activate Rhydon's Lightningrod!). These sorts of amazing moments are not mundane and something that I would do every battle all the time; no, as a matter of fact, I am probably the biggest proponent in ASB of following in-game mechanics rigidly. I am not suggesting that Flamethrower should randomly be super effective against Dragonite, or that Surf should hit Milotic super effectively. No, instead, I only ask for the ability to, in exceptional circumstances where awesomeness outweighs all else, be able to ref in a creative way that rewards the players with some good popcorn-backed reading.
    I love that I get my own category. <3
    That said, if you need any help beyond what you have planned, let me know, and I'd be happy to offer my hand.
  25. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

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    I agree wholeheartedly with what RD says. More creative licence can definitely be taken. I personally will definitely allow Pikachu to hit Rhydon with Thunderbolt if it comes up, and I think similar situations should be taken the same way.
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