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Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Huntofthelion, Jan 8, 2013.

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  1. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    About Dragon/Fire typings, I think I know why they are almost absent, so I'll write down my explanation.
    Only European dragons breathe fire. Myths about Mexican, African and Asian dragons usually don't suggest them breathing fire. Also, European dragons not only breathe fire, they also fly with the huge wings such a dragon has.
    Which means a Pokémon designed after an European dragon will usually carry the Dragon/Flying type, unless they decide to give it Dragon/Fire with Levitate.
    And other dragons don't breathe fire in the myths they are based upon.

    The closest thing to a classical fire-breathing dragon in Pokémon is Salamence as it is, but with Moxie... well.


    About Dragon/Fighting, that type would be insane and awesome. And the Pokémon with that type would go to Ubers right away unless given somewhat low stats, like 85 across the board.

    Another good typing is Electric/Fighting.
    Two weaknesses (Psychic/Ground), and five resistances (Bug, Dark, Electric, Rock, Steel), and huge offensive coverage especially if it has access to Ice-type attacks. BoltBeam AND a STAB Fighting move? Yes please.
    But yeah, I hope many new typings get introduced, and I hope some of those Pokémon are weak enough to use in NU if auto-weather stays in OU.
  2. Ada

    Ada The World
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    I’m hoping for a Pokemon that can change their abilities, as I feel that this is still an unexplored concept. We already have a Pokemon that can change their type (Arceus), a Pokemon that can change their moves (Smeargle), and a Pokemon that can change their appearance (Ditto). It would probably be a Normal-type too, as I feel like they have the most potential. They normally come with good movepools to boot (aside from legendary Pokemon) so the only "real" issue would be the stats (which can be conveniently “solved” by being legendary themselves). Of course, being able to change stats would also be cool, but at this point are we still playing Pokemon?
  3. nmitchell890

    nmitchell890

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    A Dragon/Fighting pokemon could potentially fit into OU if it had only Outrage as its physical STAB. It would be similar to Terrakion with Stone Edge, except with better resistances and a worse drawback on its move. It could even have potential flavour-wise, it could end up being similar to the superhero Iron Fist. I would rofl so hard if one is made and it gets Iron Fist as an ability.
  4. sickweare

    sickweare

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    We have something like that with Trace which copies the opponent's ability upon switching in.
  5. G-Von

    G-Von

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    I don't know if this was mentioned before but a cool addition to Generation VI would be a signature hold item for Meloetta that changes it to it's P-form. This way it would open up a moveslot for it and doesn't need to waste a turn to set up. It would be a major help for it and I don't think it would be too much trouble for GF to make this kind of addition.
  6. Ada

    Ada The World
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    That’s not what I meant; that’s like comparing a Mirror Move user to Smeargle, I meant in a more permanent sense of the word “change”. Maybe I should have used a different word… |>-_-
  7. Dilasc

    Dilasc

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    I know we have Dragon/Flying types... but what if we had one with an ability that provided Dragon immunity... preferably with an accompanying Stat boost.


    You'd have the best dragon counter in the game: Only those with moldbreaker and their clones would NOT have to either switch out or carry Rock/Ice Moves for this thing.


    All of the common coverage moves to go along with dragon: fighting, ground, fire and water, are resisted by Dragon/Flying. Meaning that with this ability, it could wall dragons all day long.
  8. Goodra

    Goodra

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    I'd rather see a non legend Dragon/Ghost then another Dragon/Flying. Hell I'd like to see a Dragon/Bug, Dragon/Fighting, or Dragon/Psychic then another Dragon/Flying.
  9. Explorer

    Explorer

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    I think if we add any more hazards the game will become of one mindset: set down every hazard possible and keep them off your side, and you win with ease.

    Also:

    1. Among the typings that have been discussed, I feel that Steel/Dragon is cool, with few weaknesses. It would make a nice legendary Pokemon (maybe another trio, like Steel/Poison, Steel/Dragon, and Steel/Water)

    2. How about a Pokemon that can have two different weather-inducing abilities?

    3. Better distribution of Gastro Acid would be appreciated.
  10. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    We already have a Steel/Dragon legendary - Dialga.

    Anybody think Ghost/Fighting would be good? It would be a Spinblocker who can actually stay in against Tyranitar.
  11. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    A good spinblocker (offensive/defensive wouldn't even matter) in OU NOT weak to Pursuit/Dark-type moves in general would be a blessing to stall and even hyper-offensive. Just from Ubers experience (I'm trying to get into OU) just laying down hazards AND keeping them there shifts the odds heavily in your favor. Now a good Ghost/Fighting with Rapid Spin? This is my dream and it would be a brilliant team supporter. :) COME ON GAMEFREAK!
  12. Explorer

    Explorer

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    Or we can just use a Ghost-type (or Psychic-type) that has an ability that makes it immune to Dark-type moves. But then its defense should be low to compensate for that so Tyranitar can do good damage with Stone Edge.
  13. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
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    I'd like to see Detect get some love since it's completely pointless with Protect around.
    Detect would Protect the user for a turn and raise Defense one stage. Flavor-wise is makes sense because once a Pokemon Detect that an Attack is coming, it's far more prepared for it. The 8 PP maximum would be justified since you can't just spam the move with Subs and your Defenses boost are easily Roared away, leaving you with even less PP for the move next time.

    I'd also like to see a decent user of Imprison. (because Imprison lead Landorus with SR & Imprison Outrage/Iron Head/Focus Blast Kyurem aren't trolling enough)
    It would be really cool to see a Pokemon that seals away the majority of the moves it's weak to without having to kill it's own move coverage. (Gallade Imprisoning Shadow Ball for instance. It's adorable but lol @ no Ice Punch.) I know that Bisharp doesn't get Imprision nor Close Combat but this is an example:
    [​IMG]
    Bisharp (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Defiant
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Imprison
    - Sucker Punch
    - Close Combat
    - Substitute

    This is an example of a very good Imprison user. This set would be mean to fight against. For one, with Imprison up, you can't set up a Substitute against Bisharp so you have to take a Sucker Punch or Close Combat to the face or Roar him out since Imprison stays in effect until Bisharp switches out. Secondly, Close Combat is sealed so Sucker Punch resistant Pokemon are now just limited to Steel- and Dark-types (Minus Keldeo and Conkeldurr since they don't use CC) so they're have to take a Close Combat to the face to get past him. And finally, Bisharp can make great use of a Sub itself to prevent status, which can force Pokemon to attack. The big flaw is that Pokemon like Jellicent can just Recover to the stall way Sucker Punch PP but no set is without its issues.

    Imprison could be brutal with the right Pokemon for the job but unfortunately, maybe with the exception of Lead Landorus-I, there are NO good Imprison users and it's a damn shame.
  14. Tobes

    Tobes "The absolute strongest reindeer"
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    Detect is actually a buffed Protect in doubles, which is what Nintendo really cares about. Don't expect any changes to it.

    Edit at below: Bizarre, for some reason I had always been under the impression that Detect had a higher rate of continuous success, but I can't find any evidence for it.
  15. BluhBluh

    BluhBluh

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    It's only a buffed Protect in doubles because of its poor distribution, which means most Imprison users can't learn it. In singles, it's essentially Protect's unpopular cousin, due to the lower PP (8 PP against 16 PP), making it easier to PP stall out.

    That said, I don't think that GF will buff Detect in Gen 6. Maybe they'll change the mechanics of Protect and Detect, but not buff Detect to a stronger version of Protect.

    Edit in response to Tobes' edit:
    Wording is vague, but I think this can be evidence:
    http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Protect_(move)
    http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Detect_(move)

    From the wording, I think it means Protect's chance of working is cut by half every time it is successful, while Detect is a solid 50% after the first use if used successively. So I think you're right on that point and my analogy needs to be tweaked a bit.
  16. Eggbert

    Eggbert

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    We need an item that increases trick room turns, at least by a little. It sucks that one of the precious turns is wasted when you set up trick room, and the common protect really kills the strategy. 6 turns total would be nice. Trick room would be a great form of all out offense.
  17. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    One the topic of protect, one thing I really want to see is a protect that blocks the opponent. In singles it would be completely identical, but in doubles, say the opponent wanted to use Earthquake. Instead of having both pokemon protect to avoid the move, you could use only one pokemon to stop the opponent's attack, but still be vulnerable to the other pokemon while also being able to attack with your own other pokemon.

    It could lead to some more interesting matches.
  18. Eggbert

    Eggbert

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    That would change singles greatly, since you could then block, say, a swords dancing terrakion from setting up while protecting with blissey rather than having it actually set up.
  19. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    No, no, no, it would still allow the opponent to alter themselves. Block the attacks coming from a terrakion? Lol just SD up. Same as normal protect, blocks all the attacks coming from the opponent.
  20. Hugin

    Hugin

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    I'm sort of wondering if UU won't become the main tier in gen VI, with OU shifting to be more like Ubers, a combo of n00bs and people who really like pushing the upper limits of Pokemon. It seems like it'd be far easier to just play UU and let the upper echelon of power rampage through OU than it would be to try to suspect everything that will be broken in a new gen with a whole new list of threats. Sure, individuals are doing that this time, but I'm thinking there may be some sort of an official shift.
  21. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    Or just give next generation two Uber tiers, with the first being the current Ubers, the banlist, and the second for things which are extremely powerful but not actually banned (what OU is going to be if we aren't careful), like the current OU.
    The new OU, probably closer to the current UU, would have permanent weather banned.
  22. Codraroll

    Codraroll
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    Well, one of the sources for the "power creep" in OU is that there simply are more Pokémon now than before. The group of the 5% strongest non-legendary Pokémon in the game is getting bigger and bigger, with move- and ability-pools expanding even beyond that. Brought back a couple of generations, I think a current RU team could wreak havoc in the upper tiers of an earlier metagame.

    As a rule of thumb, the strongest non-broken Pokémon in the game make it to OU, and as the general power level of all Pokémon increases, so does OU itself. The metagame becomes more fast-paced and hard-hitting than before, while the middle or lower tiers adopt the playstyle and power level of the previous generation's OU. The bar for competitive playing is raised a little bit for every generation.

    Last, I think that the average power levels of all Pokémon in relation to another might not change much from generation to generation, but the few % at the ends of the bell curve embraces an increasing number of 'mons. Just as strong Pokémon, moves and abilities are added in every game, so are crappy Pokémon, moves and abilities. In total, it evens out, but as we tend to concentrate on the strongest few percent, to us it appears to be a radical power creep going on. It's easy to forget that we get a Vanilluxe for every Hydreigon and a Zen Mode for every Regenerator. Gen. V Beedrill would completely smash the Gen. I metagame, but in Gen. V, it's still residing on the bottom of the barrel. I think hardly anybody bashes a relative power creep in NU.
  23. keleyeemoh

    keleyeemoh

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    Gen I has 12 OU Pokémon, II has 9, III has 7, IV has 11, and V has 13. In summation, fuck your power creep. We get viable Pokémon every generation, old or new. Having two Uber tiers or making UU the premiere tier are stupid. The metagame will shift, as metagames do. Changing tiers in this way is not a good solution to holding on to your precious Persian.
  24. FrostFire

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    Ok, this isn't quite right. The term 'Power Creep' does not (despite common misconception) refer to newer pokemon being more powerful than older pokemon, thus making them redundant. Rather, it refers to pokemon in general becoming more powerful, BOTH through the introduction of new, powerful pokes, and buffing old pokes to create a more and more offensively powerful metagame. Take Breloom; it was strong in Gen 4, but then it became even more offensively powerful in Gen 5 with Technician. Water types were good in Gen 4, but Drizzle in Gen 5 doubles the power of their STAB with infinite rain. Moves like Secret Sword and Psyshock bypass a pokemon's specially offensive limitations, by allowing them to get past special walls.

    The number of boosts you could list for offensive pokemon just goes on and on. MoxieMence. Shell Smash. Quiver Dance. Chlorophyll Venusaur. Sheer Force. The number of boosts to offense are numerous - but compare that to the boosts to defence. In Gen 5, such boosts are almost nonexistent; there's Poison Heal Gliscor, for one. Ferrothorn is amazing too. But overall, the buffs to defence are infinitely outweighed by the boosts to offense, creating a trend line that is currently sharply erring towards a more and more offensive metagame.

    Hence, 'Power Creep'.

    To bring this post back on topic, this is definitely a trend that (imo) needs to be reversed (or at least held back to some extent) if we are to get a really enjoyable and skill based Gen 6 metagame. I feel like a lot of the problems with gen 5 could be fixed if only we were able to more competently counter some of the meta's top offensive threats.
  25. Eggbert

    Eggbert

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    FrostFire is right. The offensive options in Gen 5 completely out shadow any defensive ones. I expect Gen 6 might be the same since game freak will likely add more variants of psyshock/secret sword/psystrike, possibly for physical attackers. Other possibilities are draco meteors for fighting types, ghost types, even better special rock moves. It's easier for them to make cool powerful mons.

    Having something like this would be nice, but there are some problems. Let's say we had OU1 and OU2. In gen 6, terrakion got dragon dance or something similar and a fighting version of psystrike that hits special defense, making any efforts of walling it via hippo or slowbro useless. With a quick vote from the top 100 on the ladder, it gets moves to OU2, which has everything in OU + the ones moved up. It can also include the quasi-ubers that we were unsure about in the beginning of BW like Shaymin-s and darkrai, as well as stuff from BW2 like excadrill, blaziken, torn-T, gene, ect. This way we can test changes to OU very quickly and fluidly. The problem is then, what becomes the "real" OU that everyone wants to play. I think it would naturally move to the better metagame.

    A nice way defense could be viable again is another major game mechanic, like the physical special split. In this change, pokemon would deal less damage if they fell below certain levels of health. IE there are 4 zones. 1-25,26-50,51-75,76-100% health. At the best health, a pokemon does the most damage, but this falls off only slightly at the lower zones. This makes defensive pokemon much more viable since they have recovery and aren't attacking, while it becomes easier to wall things that take spikes damage.
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