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Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Huntofthelion, Jan 8, 2013.

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  1. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    If we're going for overpowered Technician Pokemon, then I have a suggestion...

    > Dragon / Fighting
    > Technician / Inner Focus
    > 85 / 130 / 85 / 80 / 85 / 115

    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Dual Chop
    move 3: Close Combat
    move 4: Mach Punch

    Yep seems legit... it literally OHKOs EVERYTHING in the game with a Jolly nature after a boost and SR... well, except for Champion Metang!
  2. G-Von

    G-Von

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    It depends if there are any other defensive threats that get introduced into the metagame that can handle it. Based on the calcs I did at 120 base attack, the only things that do not get 2HKO'd at +2 are certain Dragonite and certain Gyarados because of there abilities and only Dragonite if its base attack is 125. That means all it would have to do is run HP Ice if it doesn't have a physical ice-type move to get past them. Going to +2 shouldn't be hard since it out speeds everything thanks to priority excluding faster priority users, Prankster users, and E-speed.

    What I am trying to say is that this thing would be broken in this metagame and more than likely in generation 6, too.
  3. dragontamer74pe

    dragontamer74pe

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    U should totally not work for GF lol. Ice spikes is worse than stealth rocks. A guranteed freeze is just no! Grass things may balance out the meta but they'd be broke like rocks. They both need to be halved imho. They may be fond though but I don't really like the fact that it would make sun>rain as venasaur, heatran and forrestress which are all common sun pokes would love the fact that now they're gonna be able to outlast their counters with ease before spamming op attacks and forrestress and Tentacruel are the best spinners now. This would put huge pressure on spinners and they already are tricky enough to use. I don't want any more hazards but more spinners and more spinblockers.
  4. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    Yeah, but if you have a move that thaws, like Scald, or just a Fire/Ice type on your team, there should not be anything wrong as they just remove the hazard without anything happening. Pokémon with the Ice Body ability could even regain health upon switch-in while absorbing them, adding more annoyance to the user.

    And maybe Ice Spikes would bring a freeze nerf alongside.

    Freeze is not innately broken. What breaks it, is how it functions at this moment.
  5. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    How do you guys feel about eliminating Team Preview?
    Do you feel it would make certain Pokemon like Aerodactyl viable in OU again?
  6. dragontamer74pe

    dragontamer74pe

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    If you get frozen you only have a 10% chance of thawing every turn you move. With sleep you can wake up between 2-5 turns and that's a 25% chance to wake up. Definately the sleep mechanics should go back to before gen 5 though as that meant that you could get your asleep poke awake with good plays. Team preview should stay Imo but cancel the ability to switch your pokes as then zoroak wouldnt be able to wreck the metagame and we can still get leads. Imho it's more skillful when you know the other team as you know who you have to eliminate in order to sweap with your sweaper.
  7. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    I'm leaning a bit towards removing Team preview as it'll really allow certain Pokemon to shine and it really involves more skill. Now those newbies must be careful not to mindlessly send out that Banded Terrakion or that Scarfed Latios. Team Preview will force players to play conservatively, predict and ultimately plan a victory plan before the opponent does.
  8. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
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    Both of the mechanics you mentioned are wrong. You have a 20% chance to thaw out on any given turn, and sleep can only last 1-3 turns and the turn you wake up on is randomly generated.
  9. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    Team Preview needs to stay. Gen 4 was the tipping point; keeping an SDLuke in the wings while the opponent allowed his Gliscor or Hippo to fall all but ensured a sweep, for example. Managing the amount of threats in that metagame was difficult enough, imagine having lacked team preview even in this gen, where the most obscure threat can be viable given the right condition.

    Team Preview has made the game much more chess-like, in my opinion. Being able to see all of their pieces doesn't mean you can suddenly neglect properly executing your own strategy before they do their own.
  10. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
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    I completely disagree in just about every way. Gen 5 in its current state would be unplayable without it. The only reason Gen 5 is this lenient (and balanced) with tiers is because you can see a threat in team preview and know which Pokemon you need to keep safe. I would bet real money that Landorus, Terrakion, Keldeo, Wobbuffet, Latias, AND Latios would be banned if team preview didn't exist.

    In Gen 4, it was so common to have a Pokemon fall only to find out that it was the only Pokemon that stops your opponent's not-yet-revealed late-game sweeper. For example, if you let your Jirachi faint because you didn't want anything else to take a heavy hit, oh look! Calm Mind Latias was their last Pokemon; what a shame. Ferrothorn faints; oh look! ...Calm Mind Latias again! Tyranitar faints and oh lookie here; another Latias. Oh hey, you KO'd my Ninetales on-switch with your Hydro Pump; it would be a real shame if I had a Wobbuffet in my back pocket. If you play this game any decent amount, you can imagine what Sheer Force Landorus could do late-game without Team Preview.

    Pokemon was one of the last multiplayer RPGs to give you at least some information about your opponent. Some sort of team preview is absolutely standard in any multiplayer RPG. Some might call Pokemon charming for not doing that for so long, but I call it entirely out-dated especially for an RPG with over 600 characters and even if only half of them are fully-evolved, that is still a ludicrous amount of characters to have no idea which 6 your opponent has.

    To be entirely honest, I think item sprites should (and most likely will) be shown in X & Y's team preview instead of that little box icon that just states the Pokemon has an item. Not having items show up in the party menu is so archaic that the only excuse for it is laziness. Gen 2 and even Gen 3 I can understand not having tiny item sprites due to the size of the screen but this should have been in Gen 4. Having to go into the status menu to see which item my Pokemon has is a waste of time the player's time that has no business even existing. But from a competitive standpoint, with team preview as it is now, there still isn't enough information to form a reliable battle strategy. Again, it's an RPG; strategy is the game. We should be able to have a good idea of what our opponent's sets are and be able to plan accordingly. If one of your Pokemon gets taken out, very rarely should it ever be your opponent's fault. You knew the risk and you took it anyway so it should be your fault. But right now, each Pokemon has 3 good sets they can run, sometimes with completely different checks and counters, and you have to stick your neck out just to figure out which one it is and if you guess wrong, you can end up crippled the entire match. No one should have to employ "Plan C" every single battle, win or lose.

    But I'm gonna stop here cause I think I made my point and I'm just going way off into rant mode.
  11. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    Completely agree. The sheer power creep of the last generation has made not having Team Preview impossible, and I assure that at least 5 pokemon we have currently would be banned before long, namely Sheer Force Landorus, possibly Zoroark, Terrakion, and the current heavyweights of OU. Team Preview is an absolute necessity now, and should not be removed. I used to favor its removal, but on second thought, I realized how important it is for the game.
  12. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Absolutely, Team Preview should stay. That's the only reason that this meta is even playable right now. People complain about how impossible it is to prepare for everything in this meta, that there are simply too many powerful Pokemon to prepare for. Try battling with a hundred new Pokemon and no way of telling what you'll be facing. If Game Freak continues to create a power creep, like they have been doing up until now, one wrong move could easily ruin your entire game, and you have no idea what that wrong move is until your opponent kicks your ass because of it. How you're supposed to prepare for anything is beyond me.
  13. Smilodon

    Smilodon

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    You might add Espeon and Xatu to this list. During BW1 I played sometimes randomly on the Spanish server of PO, where Team Preview wasn't used, and it was impossible to use hazards or status early game.
  14. Jcpdragonx

    Jcpdragonx

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    Without even looking at the skill set, that typing and stat combination will send that Pokemon to Ubers.
  15. The Immortal

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    I agree that Team Preview should stay. The number of Pokemon, and as a result threats, are increasing with a new Gen. It would be very difficult to make predictions without Team Preview as you would have to assume everyone's six Pokemon play the same roles, which is obviously not the case.
  16. WillyYourWonka

    WillyYourWonka

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    Wishlist for Gen VI?

    1. Buff to hail in the form of reducing non-Ice type mons Speed by one stage. Hail and snow is really cold so it should affect how fast a mon should move. Fire types would be immune to this affect for obvious reasons.

    2. Dragon/Fighting. Mentioned multiple times already and even if it becomes Ubers, I want to see it happen. STAB Outrage and Close Combat would be an offensive dream.

    3. Reliable defensive spinners with Scrappy

    4. Item that extends Gravity's effect(I find it really underappreciated)
  17. Infernis

    Infernis

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    I was playing ADV again for the Tour this past weekend, and the lack of Team Preview is actually really nice. It's not too hard to adapt to the change; I managed it in a day or so. Has the enemy been conspicuously using only 5 of their Pokemon? The last one might be a cleanup Snorlax. It takes some predicting, but it's not impossible to deduce. It requires one to have an answer to everything. You can't build a team and play it like there isn't a sleepy bear in the wings unless you've either killed it or forced the enemy to use all six of their Pokemon. That's a big reason why ADV was such a slower-paced metagame. (Other than the massive move power creep*.) You can't see the entire enemy team and know that one of your Pokemon can sweep away the enemy team if you can only manage to wear down particular members.

    *Gen 3 Hi Jump Kick: base 85. Gen 5 Hi Jump Kick: Base 130. Gen 3 Outrage: base 90. Gen 5 Outrage: base 120.

    EDIT: Rayquaza_ speaks truth. Swampert would be completely amazing in the Tour if people didn't prepare for it with HP Grass on a third of their teams.
  18. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

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    Even if Outrage was base 120 in advance it wouldn't have been used much, not with the likes of Suicune and Blissey being so common in that metagame.

    Really, it was the re-assigning of physical and special moves that was the biggest thing that made Gen IV and V so much more offensive imo, although obviously the power creep is still a factor.
  19. Abacus

    Abacus

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    Every generation has had its own feel to it. I didn't play generation 1 or 2, but from hearsay...

    Generation 1 was about fearsomely powerful pokemon with odd mechanics, chess like interactions and psychic dominance.

    Generation 2 was about stall, spikes, leftovers, rest and snorlax

    Generation 3 was about tight team construction, counters and choice band

    Generation 4 was about setting up the right sweep, lures, and life orb

    Generation 5 was about weather

    My fear is that generation 6 will also be about weather. No mechanic is nearly so powerful as weather, and unless generation 6 doesn't allow imports from gen 5, then I think generation 6 will also be about weather. There's nothing wrong with gen 5 being the weather generation, I just don't want pokemon to become the weather game.
  20. grrgrrgrr1000

    grrgrrgrr1000

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    I predict some abilities to be replaced, as people pointed out. It would be a great opportunity to fix past gen mistakes and prevent a retarded omaunt of ability slots. Let's make some examples:
    -Dual abilities on legendaries is actually wrong, since legendaries appear once. Sure, many legendaries got pressure, so I understand they gave them a second ability, but they actually just should have replaced pressure instead. (and many legendaries didn't get a very interesting ability either, such as Articuno, Mewtwo and the Sinnoh dragons). I do want to make an exception for legendaries that have multiple ways of summoning, athough that hasn't been done yet (Would be cool if they made a R/S remake, and gave the regis two ways to summon).
    -GF will likely introduce a Hail equivalent of Sand Rush (I call it Snow Rush) and Stoutland certainly deserves it. But he already has three abilities. Two of them leave him in dust, so it would be a good idea for GF to remove them on him and give Snow Rush instead. (Also, Sand Rush and Snow Rush pairs very gimmicky).
    -In DP, Hitmonchan got an ability that boosts all punching moves. One would assume Hitmonlee would get an ability that boosts all kicking moves. But no, he got an ability that only boosts (Hi) Jump Kick (which was crap back then), along with an array of moves he doesn't even learn. Fix that, GF!
    -Some more mons should gain a signature ability. Some funny ideas would be an ability that combines all non-signature sun-consuming abilitys for Sunflora and, an ability that priorities Electric moves for Raikou (similar ones for Entei and Suicune), and an ability that removes hazards on the end of each turn for Hitmontop. Of course, these should be their only abilities, so it would cause an ability replacement.
    -I'm of an opinion that all eeveelutions should have the same ability (I was thinking of Adaptability and Quick Feet), as part of their gimmick. Not sure if GF can do this at this point, as Espeon would severely dislike it.
    -Blaziken would stay in Uber if it kept Speed Boost. Starters shouldn't be uber, so I guess GF will take it away from him.
    -GF blew several dream world abilities. Most notably are the Regis' abilities, as they would be perfect recepients for Analytic. (Ice Body is decent, but relies on the least used weather. Surdy is good, but kinda useless on Regirock, and Light Metal is just a shit ability in general). Other notable mons are Rapidash (it should have gotten Sap Sipper), Farfetch'd (it should have gotten Super Luck) and Ampharos (it should've gotten Lightningrod).
    -GF also blew the gen3 ability distribution a little bit. I mean, almost nothing got Volt Absorb (Ampharos deserved it!).
    -Ditto should have Imposter as it's only ability.

    I would also like to mention something about the in-game mechanics of abilities, even though it's kinda off-topic. Up until now, every pokemon has one or two ingame abilities with the same frequence of appearing anywhere, along with one hidden ability that has to be obtained by event. I find that actually very stupid. In my book, every pokemon should have up to three ingame abilities, and the frequence of each ability varies per ingame location. That said, some ingame locations feature species with only it's first ability. Some abilities will be version exclusive, some will be event exclusive, but the amount of that will be limited. Some other factors can play as well, such as season, day of the week, and day/night.
  21. grrgrrgrr1000

    grrgrrgrr1000

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    Also, I have an idea to buff hail:

    Hail changes the typing of SR into Ice. This means that Ice types have an easier type of switching in under Hail, as they resist SR. Hail would also benefit Fire types, but it would be an absolute nightmare for Dragons and Grounds.
  22. grrgrrgrr1000

    grrgrrgrr1000

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    Seconding this, especially since a 100% freeze move will be probably exclusive to Ice types (and we have Freeze Clause). And they can also introduce a 75% accurate one if a 100% one is indeed too much.

    EDIT: another quote:
    Evolutions is something they should be careful with. Look at the DP era: many evolutions were introduced that mutilated classic mons. We don't want that to happen again. Look at Rhyperior: he is way less cool than Rhydon and his only advantage is an ability that IS usefull. As for Zangoose, they could also make him more threatening by boosting his exclusive now-100%-inferior-to-Gusts ability, Toxic Boost, by letting it Boost his attack AND Speed when poisoned. Then he is powerful AND fast.
  23. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

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    One weird thing when we discovered the Gen IV new evos was that some of them were for Pokemon that were big players in OU at the time (like Magneton and Dusclops), and others, like Rhydon and Porygon2, were viable in OU and had been in the tier at times during Gen III, and the concept of making stronger versions of those Pokemon seemed quite unnecessary at the time. Obviously, it's worked out in the end, but it goes to show it's difficult to predict how they'll work out competitively. And something ridiculous like a Scizor evolution might turn out to be pretty poor in the end.

    If you're talking about their designs, I see what you mean. I found the designs of Lickilicky, Tangrowth and Magmortar, to be pretty awful at first. They could've been a lot more appealing. I've got used to them now though. Some of the others were decent.
  24. WarriorPrince

    WarriorPrince

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    .........................

    I hope you don't actually believe that Gamefreak will implement these changes /fixes because of the impact it will have on the metagame or at the request of competitive batters.....

    If that were the case, they would have changed a TON of things that players have been crying for for certain Pokemon for years.

    Yes, they did make competitive breeding MUCH easier, but I've yet to see them do much to a Pokemon's abilities (or anything else of the sort) for the sake of competitiveness....
  25. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    Personally, I like most of the DPP evolutions. Yeah, Magmortar and Lickilicky are shameful (although Lickitung itself was pretty shameful too), but I've found that Pokemon like Magnezone and Rhyperior have grown on me. Plus, Honchkrow and Togekiss are and always have been awesome.

    Buffing Toxic Boost would make it pretty overpowered, in my opinion. Yeah as it stands Toxic Boost is inferior to Guts, but it's fitting with Zangoose's flavor, since he's worst enemies with the poisonous Seviper (shame he didn't get a cool Dream World ability though).

    If there was one Pokemon I'd want to see get a new evolution, it'd be Camerupt. I mean, it's a fucking volcano camel, it's such a shame that it sucks. All they'd really need to do is up it's bulk a notch and he wouldn't necessarily be top tier, but he'd be much more viable nevertheless.
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