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Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Huntofthelion, Jan 8, 2013.

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  1. Darknut07

    Darknut07

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    This would be the laziest evolution ever. All they did was elongate its tail. Obviously a fake.
  2. Rackham

    Rackham

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    Like the majority of people posting (earlier) in this thread, I'd like weather nerf, more good defensive pokemon/offensive nerf and good bluky spinner(s).

    However, one of the main things I'd like to see -and maybe this is just a consequence of such an offensive meta- is a slower metagame. Last gen, base 100 was the speed to beat and now you need base 108 to realistically sweep without agility/rock polish.

    In addition, I feel like perhaps taking a harder look at toed/drizzle at the beginning of BW or BW2 as a suspect could have resulted in a more balanced metagame (or maybe that banning drizzle would have resulted in fewer overall bans?). To be perfectly honest, I'm not convinced that things wouldn't have ended up exactly the same, though I'd be interested in hearing other, more experienced players' opinions.
  3. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    Well, they changed the design of the head too and now it looks more threatening! Maybe intimidate...(Im just kidding)

    We need a Ghost / Steel ...
  4. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

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    For most of Pokemon moves had two main characteristics (Base Power and Accuracy). In Generation IV they added a third one (physical/special), as opposed to having it determined by the type of the move.

    I think to combat the power creep, they could add another characteristic to all the moves. A speed multiplier. If they gave weaker moves higher speed multipliers, and the better moves lower ones, then it would result in a lot of Pokemon opting for weaker moves, which would mean defensive play would stand a chance.

    Just a random example, but say Thunderbolt has a speed multiplier of 100%, and Shock Wave has a speed multiplier of 200%. Then a Pokemon with a speed stat of 200 using Shock Wave would move before a Pokemon with a speed stat of 350 using Thunderbolt, as the speed multiplier would give it a speed stat of 400 for that turn.

    Considering that items like Choice Scarf, and base 40 priority moves are used a lot, I think weaker moves with a high speed multiplier would see a large amount of use. An incentive for people to use weaker moves would definitely combat the power creep. Sometimes Gen V matches can consist of mainly 2HKOs, which I think is a bit extreme.
  5. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    ^ Haven't we already heard something like this in the X / Y Discussion? It seems like it's just trying a little too hard to buff weak moves and weak attacks. Remember, most of the player base doesn't play competitively like we do, and having a "speed multiplier" would just be another statistic to memorize. pass.

    Also, as I've played a little bit more, I don't really want to see a defensive buff. Anything more than Ferrothorn would just be annoying. I don't really want the metagame to revolve around stall and Evolite and Leftovers and such. I'd rather just have a quick offensive battle and be done with it. True, it does take a lot more skill to successfully pull off a stall team, but having to play against them is really annoying. Defensive mons with good utility though, not just absurd defensive stats would be nice. Like the Steel / Ghost spinblocker that we want. With just decent stats, it would be nice.

    Lastly, Dunsparce!!! Come back!!! ;_;
  6. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    I think we are regaining a competitive ground for stall. The thing is, all we need is a couple good defensive pokes each generation (Ferrothorn and Jellicent come to mind for fifth gen) that counter balance the incredible power creep. The thing is, the reason why Gen V became so offensive was that the amount of incredibly high stat offensive pokemon multiplied tenfold, completely outnumbering the meager defensive additions. If the ratios were more balanced, we could have a balanced, offensive yet stall viable metagame.
  7. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

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    Hey I have a few things I want for 6th Gen.

    Hydreigon with Agility

    Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Superpower/agility sweep.

    Ability that reverses priority and a movepool full of negative priority moves.

    Suddelny Scizor doesnt seem so threatning.

    So +1 Taunt becomes -1 taunt on a foe, but on a user, -7 Trick Room becomes +7 Trick Room. Hoever, this pokemon (or pokemons) should be destroyed by TR sweepers like Reuniclus.

    MORE TRICK ROOM SWEEPERS.
    Reuniclus is not enoough. How about a GOOD Dragon type TR sweeper (screw you Druggidon) with good coverage. Like this could be the Dragon/Fighting everyone raves about?

    More mixed sweepers, but with good offensive stats (think Tornadus), and great movepools. 100 speed.

    ENTRY HAZARDS
    Burning Spikes: Think Fire version of Stealth Rock. Fire types are immune and remove them from their side of the battle field. Flash Fire users gain an boost to their fire type attacks.

    Lasers: Electric version of stealth rock. ELectric and ground types are immune to this, but Electrics remove the lasers from the battlefield. Lightning rod users gain a SpA boost. Volt Absorbers gain 25% health back


    Priority for these attack types and physical and special variants
    Fire Priority: SCIZOR IN UU HOORAY!!!
    Electric Priority: Bye bye Gyarados
    Grass Priority: Rotom finished.
    Bug Priority: Celebi in UU xD
    Rock Priority: Volcarona screams in fear
    Psychic Priority: Umm. Idk
  8. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    I don't think negative priority could work like that.
    Imagine scenario A:
    Pokemon with "priority reverse" and Stealth Rock up:
    Since Roar / Dragon Tail has the worst priority in the game, it would spam these moves until the opponent lost due to entry hazard damage. As phazing moves would be the fastest in the game, there would be nothing for the opponent to do.
  9. Eleman

    Eleman

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    Negative priority reverse would be a horrible idea because of the way it would overcentralize the entire metagame. At best it will be up for the first month of testing then be considered broken and banned. Trick room and phazing moves would suddenly become broken and pokemon that were originally good wouldn't be. That may be a good thing for variety but it just shows how much it would overcentralize the metagame. Almost every standard team would have to carry taunt to block it.
  10. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

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    I remember in Generation III where Sleep Talk was really common in the competitive scene, sometimes you'd see something like Skarmory using Sleep Talk to get a Roar/Whirlwind in before the opponent would attack. A bit gimmicky really, but it makes me a bit worried for how it would turn out if you could do that just using an ability. Interesting concept though.

    The thing is, I've been playing since Generation I, and I joined Smogon in Generation III, at a time where even the likes of Claydol, Dusclops and Weezing were big players in OU (i.e. people played with a defensive mind-set), so I see this differently I guess. Ferrothorn's defensive capabilities are nothing compared to some of the Pokemon from previous metagames. It might seen annoying, but I suppose it's down to what people are used to really.

    However, I think what you say about competitive players not being the priority is correct, which is probably why we won't see something like this implemented.
  11. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    I honestly doubt any big changes will happen. And I mean real changes, not extra abilities and small, stupid mechanic changes that make no sense. Things were going solid for three generations in a row, but it's obvious that Nintendo only makes the games to keep printing out the money and GF doesn't really know how to do things right anymore. Why reset the sleep counter by switching out? Why nerf Payback on the switch? Why make the stupidest ability ever, Moody? The list goes on. They nearly perfected battling with DPP. I'm pretty sure XY will feel like DP V3, just like how BW was V2.

    Yes, they are releasing the next generation too quickly, but honestly, after the mess that was BW, I'm hoping the time will fly by just to fool around with some new Pokemon for the first few months the game is out.

    Get ready for more weather wars though...
  12. vyomov

    vyomov

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    I would like an ability called Trickster which would call Trick Room for 7-8 turns if not like Drizzle(Forever)(Joimmons :))
    That would increase the viability of Trick Room :)
    Also, I would REALLY like a Dragon/Fighting type slow sweeper as mentioned above. Another cool typing would be Rock/Ghost type.
    I would also like a Grass-type hazard to balance out(Fire,Bug,Flying resist this but are SE by Stealth Rock, Ground types resist SR but hit by this, evens out).
    A Fire type hazard called Bushfire would be cool as well!
  13. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

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    There were a lot of weird mechanics in Generation I which they fixed for the following generation (e.g. Hyper Beam not recharging after KO, freeze never defrosting, Psychic-type being overpowered, Slash/Razor Leaf/etc. always critical hitting, Wrap, etc.).

    So if we're lucky we might get similar treatment this time around, where they fix up lots of things.

    Making the perma-weather abilities last for 8 (or 5 or 10) turns instead of indefinitely would help a lot, it's a simple change that I hope they do.

    That would be cool. Even if it was just 5 turns it would probably be an awesome ability.
  14. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

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    Unless its on a psychic type. Ttar comes in, Crunch.
  15. Box

    Box

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    Seriously though you can't give something 100 Base HP, decent special bulk, usable speed and an attack stat that rivals Conkeldurr.

    Ice/Fighting is definitely something we need to see though. Even with Breloom-esque mediocre stats, that offensive typing is so awesome (and god damn will it be cool). If GF trolls us and gives a special attacker then fuck them.

    @above: lol. And Sand Stream is horrible on TTar because Fighting type comes in. CC.
  16. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    I personally hope that GF doesn't decide to create any new entry hazard moves. SR/Spikes/Toxic Spikes was honestly enough; adding more would just make the metagame messy in my opinion, as hazard strategies would become even more dominant and quite a number of things would see a drop in viability, leading to imbalance. While having auto-absorbers will mitigate the impact of your proposed hazard moves slightly, in the long run they will still create a metagame that is overly hazard-centric.

    Though on an unrealistic and even somewhat anarchistic frame of mind, an Ice-typed equivalent of Stealth Rock would be hilarious. Considering that a whopping 17 Pokémon in the current OU tier are weak to Ice, and that a reasonable proportion of that number are also Rock, its impact on the metagame would be immense. In combination with Stealth Rock, virtually all Flying types will no longer be viable in OU - those 'mons weak to only one of Ice/Rock will still take 37.5% damage upon switching in, and those weak to both could potentially take up to 75% damage (Dragon/Flying). The majority of OU dragons would most likely drop to UU, as they become too dependant on Rapid Spin support, and hence become more of a liability than anything else. Even if this move gets absorbed by Ice types, it will still break the metagame (although admittedly it would be an interesting way of making Hail teams more viable, lol).
  17. vyomov

    vyomov

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    I would love a Fire type hazard: all Steel types just got BURNED :)
  18. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    Unless only one type of type-hazard (SR/Stealth Ice/Stealth Grass etc etc) whatever can be stacked so you have to pick your hazard type.

    That immidiately renders the argument of that Pokémon can lose more than half of their health upon switch in useless.
  19. aAa123

    aAa123

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    1. cap SR damage on 2x and 4x
    2. more move to clear hazards
    3. a more promising fire starter
  20. kpatable

    kpatable

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    I would like to see something that balances out the types. Steel, Water, Dragon, etc. overwhelm the metagame, and it's pretty ridiculous. Not to mention how having a type weak to rock can lessen a Pokemon's usability automatically. Whether it be a new type or not, types need rebalancing.
  21. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    So I know what I'd like to see: Some more fast Fire types. I'm running a Scarf Infernape on a sun team currently (not too terrible because sun-boosted Flare Blitz is good for cleaning/taking out weak stuff) but he's just... Weak. Ugh. I'd be fine with a special Fire type (I'm running a physical Infernape), just one that's as fast or faster with better than base 104 offenses.
  22. vyomov

    vyomov

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    We already have one but it was broken(Blaziken, that's why it went to ubers)
    To be honest I'd like a bulky Ice/Steel Type that has good defenses and amazing SpA
  23. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    The difference was that Blaziken itself wasn't naturally fast, it had Speed Boost. I also think we need a swift fire type, maybe something like Alakazam stylistically, except has high Atk instead of SpA.
  24. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Not Zam! Zam is REALLY Frail and priority just kills it :)
    Sun teams need a Fire type Magic Bounce or a Fire type Magic Guard special attacker
  25. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    May as well chime in. Contrary to what a lot of other people have done (chime in with their opinion consisting of a few sentences) I feel like I should make a longer post; not because it is superior to briefly posting your thoughts - what the goal of this topic is - but because there are already 30+ pages of this and throwing in my 2-3 line thoughts are probably overkill (and may not even be read). I will try to summarize what a lot of people have already said and interject my own thoughts as well.

    Offensive pokemon vs. Defensive pokemon
    First of all, the most common complaint is the amount of threats and lack of defensive options (or defensive 'threats' even) in today's metagame. I totally agree with this. This doesn't mean that we like to play 300-turn games back-to-back and solely rely on spamming status and hazards, it simply means that it creates a somewhat boring onesided game that doesn't reward switching. Additionally, the lack of defensive pokemon puts a strain on teambuilding, there are simply so many threats to keep track of that eventually you'll find yourself helpless against something like a sub/focus blast/roost Hydreigon, no matter how good your team is. You may not see that particular set in your next 100, 200 or even 300 games but due to the sheer amount of threats you may encounter a scenario like this in a large percentage of your games where you are swept by a rare moveset/pokemon.
    Unlike in for example gen 3, you cannot say 'alright, Skarmory and Blissey... lets add Claydol too, now I can wall a lot of threats'. Keep in mind that this core didn't even wall most attacks: a CB Heracross (especially when status'd and enjoying a guts boost) could still OHKO all three of these pokemon. Suicune could set-up against these three pokemon as well and pull off a 6-0 and although Zapdos couldn't hurt Blissey it could easily outstall it with resttalk. You were by no means safe, but you had a 'core', a way of dealing with most threats. This doesn't exist in bw2, which is why a lot of people have asked for 'the next Skarmory/Blissey'.

    Moves; how they disincentivize switching in this gen
    Not only pokemon are the cause of such an offensive meta, moves are as well. Switching isn't rewarded in the same way it was in gen 3 because moves are too strong. Let us take scald for an example: in gen 3, it would be a great tactical decision to switch in your Gyarados against a surf, allowing you to set-up or at least giving you a free attack. With scald, not so much: the 30% burn is just too strong. Swapping in your Tyranitar against Heatran? No thanks, lava plume has 30% burn. Moves have gotten stronger too, many times have I seen the words 'it's not very effective...' scroll uselessly across my screen as my pokemon just lost 60-70% of its health. U-turn and volt switch are also excellent examples of broken moves that give the attacker too much momentum. If I'm up against Rotom-W and am forced to swap out, he can simply volt switch, see what I swapped to and then swap in the appropriate counter. This was possible in gen 3 only by drypassing (baton pass first turn) and was the main reason for banning ingrain Smeargle, as Ninjask leads could bp the first turn and then bp to smeargle if they brought in their phazer or to something tanky like Umbreon to take the hit (who in turn usually sported mean look and taunt). U-turn and volt switch are apparently fair game now, however.

    The next thing that disincentivizes switching is stealth rock: present in exactly 100.00% of competitive teams (maybe not on a very small amount of full baton pass teams), your pokemon are going to take damage upon switching in lest they have specific abilities and/or typing. Sleep has gotten a significant boost which made pokemon such as Breloom only stronger and once again disincentivized defensive rest-usage as switching reset the counter. Lets not forget that Draco Meteor and Outrage also pack a tremendous punch and are hard to wall - something we didn't have in earlier gens at all.

    Let us not forget priority moves and new boosting moves such as shell smash and quiver dance, whereas you'd previously only got to set up +2 at a time (either by +1/+1 to stats such as dragon dance or calm mind or just +2 by swords dance), you can now set up faster by using quiver/shell smash. Just using swords dance and then abusing priority moves is also a viable option: you used to care about speed, even running jolly instead of adamant, but now you can swords dance with Lucario or Scizor and extremespeed/bullet punch away, not caring about the speed aspect.

    Weather and how it benefits offense more than defense
    It's quite simple: it adds another STAB to your water and fire moves. It does decrease the power of opposing water/fire moves but due to overwhelming moves (as explained above), +value is generally given to the offensive party rather than the defensive party, even when the defensive party makes something which intuitively should be considered a smart switch (i.e. an example of switching Gyarados into scald is listed above). Although rain may make Ferrothorn that much more dangerous by helping his x4 fire weakness, it also makes water attacks much more powerful against him. With rain up, certain things simply become close to or actually unwallable: choice specs Keldeo can hydro pump nearly every mon for respectable damage whereas a choice band Victini under sun doesn't care about what you swap in as long as it doesn't have flash fire: a CB Victini's V-create under sun does over 150 power off 328 attack against pokemon that x4 resist fire after weather, STAB and CB have been taken into account. To give you an idea: it OHKOs full health Gliscor.

    New items benefit offense
    Whereas we used to have only choice band, we now have things like choice specs, choice scarf, type gems, life orb, expert belt and whatnot whereas we only got extremely limited defensive items (eviolite is limited in its use, defensive berries are barely used, focus sash doesn't really help defensive pokemon but rather offensive pokemon). Flame orbs or toxic orbs to activate guts don't help the defensive side either.

    Abilities
    Abilities aren't that bad of an offender; things like Multiscale, Prankster, Thick Fat, Regenerator, Magic Guard, Intimidate, Rain Dish, Poison Heal, ..., ..., are all great defensive abilities that I feel are on par with their offensive counterparts like Moxie, Mold Breaker, Chlorophyll, Technician, ..., ..., The problem definitely isn't with abilities.

    Conclusion
    Today's metagame with a large distribution of powerful technician'd priority moves and lack of defensive options promote letting your pokemon stay in and die so you can revengekill the other pokemon. The power of switching is heavily diminished due to strong moves (either due to sheer power or strong primary/secondary effects) or simply strong offensive pokemon. The switch from gen 3 to gen 4 introduced the special/physical split by move rather than by type, making pokemon such as Skarmory or pure water types - who previously had no physical weaknesses - more susceptible to the type of attack they are supposed to wall, as the aforementioned Skarmory will die more easily to physical attacks now due to things such as fire punch, flare blitz and so forth, meaning that if you want to cover physical weaknesses you can't just run Skarmory and be largely safe; you need something that can wall physical fire/electric attacks as well. With defense nerfed and offense buffed (as well as the amount of threats being increased) it is very hard to play a more defensive, safe style as it is hard to properly prepare for everything that can be thrown at you, you simply don't have enough slots.

    Suggestions

    Weather: Drizzle, Sand stream, Snow warning and Drought should not be permanent. It's hard to give you a number, but I feel 10-12 turns would be appropriate, forcing you to bring your Politoed or Ninetales in more against weatherless, giving the opponent more chance of wearing it down. Additionally, 1.5x multiplier on fire and water is a bit too much, I'd prefer to see it lowered to something like 1.3x. Hail should also be boosted, perhaps get the 1.3x multiplier on ice. I'd also like to see some abilities that affect weather: Air Lock or Cloud Nine on usable pokemon or even entirely new abilities revolving weather. Additionally, I'd like to see new types of weather that benefit different types and provide unique mechanics, i.e. 'dark night' for dark pokemon, 'acid rain' for poison types and what not. This could provide any type of non-unimaginative-damage-boost(-as-seen-with-rain-and-sun)-bonus ranging from extra speed to an added chance to flinch.
    Sleep: sleep buff should be undone.
    Moves: things with a secondary effect such as scald (or even thunderbolt and flamethrower) should not be able to have their special effect triggered if the move is resisted. This allows me to actually swap in something such as Gyarados against scald and nerfs arguably 'lame' things such as Tentacruel spamming scald in rain.
    Types: I'd like to see a new (defensive) type that is immune to dragon and has bonus damage against dragon and steel. This would allow defensive pokemon to not be set-up fodder for the enemy Ferrothorn or dragons and would make people think twice about spamming Outrage.
    Team preview: I would actually like to see this removed. Usually, the more information the more skill-based a game is, chess being the ultimate example. With perfect information you do not have to make assumptions and you are never punished for 'good play', whereas in a game of imperfect information - such as poker - you may be punished for good play by losing to a hand which had only 8% chance of beating you. In a game such as poker where you play many, many hands per hour this is not as detrimental because eventually players who play well will be rewarded, but in a game of pokemon where most rounds are a best of 1 or at most a bo3, the good player may simply not always win. Providing more information in terms of team preview actually does not help: it simply turns into another rock-paper-scissors game where you can lead with pokemon A that would stop enemy pokemon X or with pokemon B that would stop enemy pokemon Y, with pokemon A losing to pokemon Y and B losing to X. A lot of good leads are also rendered useless due to team preview and actually enables people to spam their outrages: they know your options. Explosion's damage was essentially halved, but in gen 3 it wasn't a big problem due to no team preview: a CB Metagross lead in gen 3 could OHKO nearly everything (even some Skarmory) but wasn't a dominant strategy because there was no team preview, you had no idea what the opponent was packing.
    Moves: U-turn and volt switch should force you to select your switch-in before using them so you cannot see what your opponent is going to switch in and then appropriately counter that switch-in without losing any value. They should also do less damage to a substitute: if you are stuck in an unfavorable match-up (i.e. Rotom-W vs. Breloom) you should not be able to switch out and break the substitute at the same time, it takes away from the power of substitute and prediction. Right now, u-turn and volt switch are just 'hurrr, always +value'-moves.
    Pokemon teams: I'd actually like to see 7 or 8 pokemon being the maximum in a team rather than the usual 6. This may rustle some 'nostalgiafags' but I think it would contribute to a healthy, innovative metagame.
    Will-O-Wisp and Toxic: I'd like to see Toxic finally getting 100% accuracy and would love to see Will-O-Wisp boosted to at least 80%, preferably 85%.
    Stealth rock revamp: GF needs to make up their minds about what they want SR to accomplish. Is it simply a hazard to punish flying types who are immune to spikes? If so, have it only affect pokemon who are flying or levitating for 25% of their health (the same as 3 layers of spikes). This would make SR optional instead of a must have on every. single. team. Do you want stealth rock to be like spikes? Then have the damage capped at 1/8th maximum damage while keeping the 1/16th and 1/32th damage done to resistant pokemon so there are at least some counterplay possibilities.
    Rapid spin and spinblocking: I'd like to see another move - maybe even 2 moves - that accomplishes the same thing as rapid spin. This attack should be of another type, i.e. a ghost type or should simply be useful rather than being useless offensively.
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