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Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Huntofthelion, Jan 8, 2013.

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  1. aAa123

    aAa123

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    GF should also fix double team / minimize. Mons should not be immune to death after using 4 double team / minimize.
  2. Psylink

    Psylink

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    We have a weather reducing ability, but we don't have decent users, and the only one that is is banned (Quaza). Ideally, it would have a lot of HP and usable defenses. That would be great. Yet again, Trollfreak will probably live up to it's name. :(
  3. MicfiJasan

    MicfiJasan

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    Responding to HUARGH's suggestions, since some of them are very interesting, but maybe with a more... realistic perspective to some of them. I'll just bold the topics because I'll be going through them in a different order than he listed (based generally on how much I agree with them) and I don't want to insert a bunch of small quotes with a bunch of small responses. So...

    More Pokemon per Team: I think there was an "Other Metagame" created for this, but don't expect this to become the standard. Looking realistically, Game Freak has based this entire franchise around a team of 6 Pokemon, and while the increased number of threats makes 6 too small to effectively cover everything, going against it changes something so fundamental to the franchise. Not being a "nostalgiafag", just looking realistically at what Gen VI would bring.

    New Defensive Type: First off, while there is some typing imbalance, there needs to be some sort of logic when a new type is created. Dragons are meant to be mythical, ultra-powerful Pokemon, so nothing is realistically going to be immune to their attacks. You might be able to create a new type that resists Dragon, or alter the previous type chart to slightly nerf it (say, Ice now resists Dragon). While changes and additions to the type chart are certainly possible and may balance out some of the kinks they currently have, there must be some sense of logic to those changes, or Pokemon will lose legitimacy among the general public who makes up the bulk of the game's consumption.

    Adjusting Secondary Effects: The concept behind your suggestion was interesting, I think the execution goes a little too far. Again, looking realistically, something that resists a move still takes damage, so he still is hurt by the move. That said, if he is hurt less, wouldn't it make sense if he was less afflicted by the secondary effect? I think making the secondary affect chance somewhat proportional to the type effectiveness can make logical sense, and I would support it being implemented in the game. There is an issue with Scizor being 100% burned by Lava Plume that way, but if he doesn't die to Lava Plume something's wrong with the attacker. Maybe capping both ends at a factor of 2 (1/2 chance if resist, double chance if weak). It gives an incentive to switching out of a super-effective move because you would now be more vulnerable to a crippling effect by staying in, while making a smart switch-in less vulnerable to hax.

    No Team Preview: Personally split on this one. One one hand, given that the only Team Preview we have in game is by looking up a guide (I'm pretty sure stuff like the World Tournament doesn't have it), it would make sense if multiplayer matches re-accepted this trait as well. That said, Game Freak isn't going to rush to undo this recently added trait. I personally think lead matchups are not the reason why TP is seen as "bad". Yes, some leads are now unviable, but if your lead has a bad matchup against another lead, then you still have a chance of starting out on the right foot. Previously, if your lead beat 80% of the common leads in the metagame, you started out the match behind if the opponent just so happened to carry one of the 20% that beat you, something completely out of your control. I believe equally well-constructed teams should start out on even footing, something that TP provides in a limited sense. However, what may totally overshadow the lead aspect of TP is that it virtually eliminates the need to scout. TP now lets you see what strategies you opponent is likely to run, like playing a poker hand with the cards face-up. Concealing information is a good part of many strategy based games, and if I could choose I would probably choose no TP, but I don't choose so I can only cross my fingers.

    Stealth Rock Revamp: A touchy subject for me, because Rocks are such an interesting concept. That said, there are some limitation to what we can logically expect to change from it. First, eliminating weaknesses to it won't happen. If something is attacked by rocks switching in, is there really that much of a difference to being attacked by rocks from a Rock-type? If there is, I would say that 4x weaknesses/resistances go to 2x weak/resist (so 1/16th, 1/8th, and 1/4th as the only damage options). I do like that anti-air option though, but I can't truly judge whether that 1/4th still neuters those Pokemon that much. I also think a "hazard counter" could be implemented, so you can say have Rocks as they are, but not Rocks and Spikes and/or TSpikes. This could technically allow them to introduce new hazards like the anti-steel ones people are mentioning (granted, I see Stealth Fighting as more realistic than Stealth Fire, just saying), without being too hazard-centric.

    VoltTurn Revamp: Short answer: pick one. Picking the new switch in before the attack makes perfect sense, so you don't have the option of doing damage and being guaranteed an advantage on a virtual double-switch. You can also make them do less damage, say 40-50 BP. This allows advantageous matchups to potentially keep a Sub up, or not be put in range for an easy KO by a more shaky check if you don't resist it. A much softer nerf, but still could be effective. And make sure its general damage, not just against Subs, mainly because that's too specific of a change to logically expect Game Freak to make (let's make Subs have more defense only against these two moves doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about it).

    Rapid Spin and Spinblocking: I agree on wanting another, different-typed Rapid Spin. Given how entry hazards were made more diverse in Gen IV, it would make sense that getting rid of them would become more diverse as well. Perhaps a non-damaging one that always works except when Taunted, an Electric/Ground/Psychic one that opens up some new spinblocking types. I might say that this topic makes more sense for a Substitute buff than VoltTurn, since Subs generally block secondary effects anyway (think Dragon Tail vs. Roar). Logically makes sense to make this field more diverse, but not necessarily high on my priorities list.

    Status Moves: Yes, with status being an important part of the game, it's unfortunate that arguably the second most gamebreaking one (Sleep) has a 100% accurate move for it. Upping WoW's accuracy would help defend against physical attackers just a little bit better, and when Toxic is used it's generally considered bad hax if it misses. Maybe a 100% accurate burn move as a signature move on a new legendary is another option, but that's getting more into speculation.

    Sleep: At the very least, Rest should not reset when you switch. If we assume the period that a Pokemon can Rest is finite, then there's no reason to have any loophole that can prolong it indefinitely. I wouldn't mind the entire Sleep mechanics to go back to Gen IV, but at the very least don't extend it to Rest users. I think a Spored Pokemon can wake up the first turn its brought back in, so why would it make sense for Rest users to not be able to do that?

    Weather Nerf: I, and likely many others, agree with just about everything you said here. More viable Cloud Nine users for sure, that's probably the least Game Freak could do for us. Setting Drizzle/etc to 8 turns is what I initially thought of, since it is possible to successfully run Damp Rock rain teams in lower tiers. Maybe holding the weather rocks increases the duration to 12 turns. Still gives people an advantage for using weather, but not so much that they can just sac the weather setter against weatherless teams. Also agree with the power nerf. Just about every ability/item increases attack power by a maximum of 20% if there's no drawbacks (not counting Huge/Pure Power and Thick Club). Giving a 30% boost, essentially a Life Orb boost, is still significant without being able to necessarily power through absolutely everything in its path that isn't immune. And obviously Hail is currently so far behind everything else right now so a buff to counteract Rain and Sun nerfs (Sand I don't know what to do with) would be great.

    tl;dr Umm... look for the most interesting bolded portion for you and just read that. Too many different topics to summarize completely.
  4. Sound

    Sound

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    Weather: Why are you guys making new mechanics for it? Very few people say Sand and Hail are broken, why not just nerf Sun and Rain to their level? No more boosts/nerfs on Water/Fire moves, while everything else stays in tact. Abilities still activate, moves still get accuracy boosts, etc. All things, considered, Sun and Rain would still be the most powerful weather (barring new Sand and Hail abusers) thanks to their wonderful Chloro and (now not broken) Swift-Swimmers, but weather is still hit hard.

    Hazards: SR does 12% to grounded Pokémon, 18% to non-grounded. Simple as that. Any Pokémon immune to Spikes is taking the equivalent of 2 layers, which isn't game breaking. However, as others have said, more removal methods. Preferably, ones that don't cause free turns but come with some drawbacks to compensate for the fact that SR setting is a free turn (maybe a ground type move that removes hazards from both sides).

    My two cents, anyhow.
  5. meinfoo22

    meinfoo22

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    Nitmar The Baby Pokemon

    I'm definitely looking forward to Generation VI. I've lately been watching Youtube and I saw a video with a baby pokemon related to Drowzee. I don't know its name, but I'd call it Nitmar, which is a misspelling of nightmare, just like how Drowzee is a misspelling of drowsy. I wanna put up a movest I think is reasonable. Moveset: Pound (Level 1), Hypnosis (Level 1), Confusion (Level 5), Nightmare, (Level 9).
  6. meinfoo22

    meinfoo22

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    New Starters

    Chespin, Fennekin, and Froakie. The starters for Generation VI. Here are their statistics in my opinion. Chespin looks like it has average HP, average Attack, low Defense, high Special Attack, average Special Defense, and high Speed. This is unusual for a grass-type, since grass-types are usually defensive and Chespin looks offensive. Fennkin looks like it has average HP, high Attack, average Defense, average Special Attack, low Special Defense, and high Speed. This makes its stats the opposite of Chespin's. Lastly, Froakie looks like it has average HP, average Attack, high Defense, average Special Attack, high Special Defense, and average Speed. This makes Froakie seem the most balanced out of the starters.
  7. Codraroll

    Codraroll
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    This is a confirmed fake. It's a fakemon head photoshopped on the body of the Pikachu seen in the trailer.
  8. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

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    How can you tell? I'm a bit confused on your reasoning
  9. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

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    You can have a rough idea of a Pokemon's stat spread by looking at it usually (e.g. if it has claws, sharp teeth, fists, etc. it probably has a high attack, if it has a shell it probably has a high defense). And you can usually tell if a Pokemon has a high or low speed stat by how it looks (although there are exceptions, like Miltank is much faster than it looks like it would be).
  10. tintinwong

    tintinwong

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    according to CoroCoro,
    The panda is called Yancham ( ヤンチャム) and is the Naughty Pokémon. It is Fighting-type, 0.6m and 8.0kg. It has a new move called Parting Remark which lowers the opponents stats and causes the user to switch out.

    If this pokemon has a high enough base speed, this move is an excellent for keeping momentum, and forcing switches and getting free set up turns, and doesn't kill you in the process.

    We are allowed to discuss this right?
  11. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    I hope parting remark doesn't do more than -1 to a single stat, it looks like too good of a move otherwise!

    Ideally it'd -1 a random stat and it might be balanced.. if it lowers a specific stat that could be a little too good :P, it'd dictate what pokemon you can switch in!

    Parabola charge looks fairly useless, electric types seem to have a hard enough time deciding between volt switch thunderbolt and thunder and ground types are everywhere, throw in the fact that bulky electrics (ie eelektross) can't really "wall" effectively and hence make use of recovery defensively and I can't see too many uses for it.

    The panda looks like it could have a final evo that'd be OU viable, seeing as it has potential to be a pure fighting or dual typed with grass/dark (based on looking at the design and the fact that it is a "naughty" pokemon) and has the cool parting remark, if it gets sap sipper (pandas are herbivores) then it'd make a great Breloom/Amoonguss counter. The stag looks like a sawbuck/bouffalant v2 really or a hybrid of the two, the fact that it learns horn leech and will probably have a decent attack makes it sound like it will be a bulkier sawsbuck lol. The robin looks alright but I can't see an early route bird outclassing staraptor anytime soon, staraptor really had it all lol. The electric/normal looks like it will be a sun abuser!! hooray for more versatile sun threat potentials!!
  12. tintinwong

    tintinwong

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    Since its a "naughty Pokemon", it having prankster as an ability is not too unimaginable.
    Since parting remark, like memento, doesn't seem like an attacking move, this combo will probably be über worthy.

    That little robin, like starly looks innocent and weak, but who knows what kind of monster it might evolve into.
  13. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    I mean, it could be something stupid like -1 Evasion and switch out that really wouldn't be amazing or anything.

    Only time will tell.
  14. justinjiaxinghu

    justinjiaxinghu

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    Not sure if someone said this already but, a priority FIRE TYPE MOVE. This would finally make Scizor less used and a decent Breloom counter.
  15. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    Based on the name, I'd say the most logical non damaging "status" it would do would be a taunt. Remarking something then going back to the pokeball, typical dark type flavour move :P

    Can I ask you to elaborate on the priority fire move? Must have missed it.
  16. aAa123

    aAa123

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    A fire type version of Extreme Speed
  17. tintinwong

    tintinwong

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    Uh. I think fire priority move is a part of the gen6 wish list.
    It is really confusing when you just blurt it out in a middle of a confirmed new stuff conversation.
    The next batch of released information would be on the 19th on Pokemon smash I think. Hope to see more potentially competitive moves/pokemons getting announced.
  18. SnoopingGil

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    A priority fire move would also be a pretty bad blow to sun, since it does a huge amount of damage to Venusaur and other Chlorophyll abusers. I think I'd rather see a priority electric move to help out against some rain abusers like Keldeo and Gyarados (although that still doesn't work against Thundurus-T). Also, electric and ice priority on the same team sounds like fun.
  19. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    If it lowers offensive stats this move is essentially a better Memento (even if it's a -1 drop).
    If it lowers defenses it's great for Pursuit trapping, especially when you consider that ghost and psychic types are common switch-ins against fighting types.
  20. Sound

    Sound

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    Parabola Charge is an interesting move. I could see Electric tanks/walls (Eelektross, Rotom, Ampharos, Lanturn, and Zapdos are all candidates, admittedly most low tier though) using it instead Thunderbolt. I don't see this move changing tier placement much, simply helping out a couple Pokémon. Would bulky Rotom-W prefer this over Pain Split?

    Unless it gets horrible distribution like Icicle Crash. Or it's flat out a signature move for that little Electric lizard like Heat Crash for the Tepig line. Or has horrible BP.
  21. Codraroll

    Codraroll
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    Well, the Pokémon you list are all low tier at the moment. Look at Politoed, for instance. It was a rather crappy 'mon for three generations. Gastrodon was NU last generation. For all we know, either of them might be the big stars of the next generation metagame. Parabola Charge might just be the icing on the cake.
  22. BrianFantana

    BrianFantana

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    Looking at this, Parting Shot lowers both of the opponent's attack stats one stage. Seems like much bigger news to me than Parabolic Charge, which I feel is unlikely to have a drastic effect on the metagame.

    I'd wager that if it gets remotely good distribution (and considering its highly generalized flavor, that seems likely), it's going to be ubiquitous; unless the opponent uses a switching move on the same turn with a slower pokemon, it effectively gives Intimidate to whatever gets switched in - on both the physical and special sides. Looks to be an even bigger momentum grabber than VoltTurn. I'd say it would help stall teams, but it looks even better for setup sweepers. Those tired of Hyper-Offensive and VoltTurn teams are in for a nasty Gen VI...
  23. Codraroll

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    Perhaps Metagross will se increased usage again? Being immune to Parting Shot (well, he will be hit by it, but not affected thanks to Clear Body), able to fire off a powerful Meteor Mash/Earthquake/new Gen. VI move against whatever switches in, that's basically free damage. Or he could set up Agility.

    Again, and I feel obliged to state this every time I post in here, this is assuming the present conditions. And as we saw with Gen. III and the Physical-Special split, that is certainly not to be taken for granted. Gen. VI might throw us a curveball that changes the very way we look at competitive battling completely. We shouldn't look at those released moves and theorize on how they would fit into the current metagame. That brings us nowhere.
  24. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

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    http://pokebeach.com/

    Some rumors about a fairy type (somewhere in the middle of the page)

    If this is true, then Fairy is a fantastic typing. If this is legit and fairy is immune to Dragon, then we could actually have even some Uber Dragons in OU (Fairy/Water could wall even SPECS Kyurem White to hell and back, as it resists Ice and Fire, is immune to Dragon, and with 100 HP and minimum 129 SpD does not face a 2HKO from Specs Modest 252 SpA Focus Blast from Kyurem-W, even after Stealth Rock).

    And by my calculations (which was make a type chart using the info I had on fairy and smogons type chart), Fairy/Steel with Levitate/Flash Fire has 9 resists and 3 immunities. Thats more resists/immunities (when combined) than Ferrothorn, the premier wall of OU. Ferro has 11, Fairy/Steel has 12.

    Fairy/Steel with Levitate/Flash Fire
    Notable immunities include Dragon and Ground OR Fire (depending on ability).

    Notable resists include: Rock, Dark, Fighting, Bug, Ice, Flying, Normal, Psychic, Grass

    Weaknesses (if its ability is Flash Fire, then Ground and Fighting, if its ability is Levitate, then its Fire and Fighting)

    Offensively Fairy is not too bad either. Only Fire and Psychic resist it. It deals 2x on Dark, Fighting, and Dragon. (So a Dragon/Fighting won't be Uber, as if Fairy is a legit new type, then its always in check, if one runs a fairy move).

    Fairy+Ground covers everyone but Shedninja and Air Balloon Heatran.

    Fairy+Rock covers everything.

    What do you think?
  25. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    I think the type is fake not only on the basis GF has screamed at its fanbase before that it's done with new types, but on top of that, we know Trollfreak way too well for them to add something like Fairy type, whos type chart seems to be the ideal new type from a competitive standpoint.

    It simply is out of character, and in a nutshell, too good to be true at one end and too awful to be true on the other.
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