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Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Huntofthelion, Jan 8, 2013.

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  1. vyomov

    vyomov

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    I would love a Fire type hazard: all Steel types just got BURNED :)
  2. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    Unless only one type of type-hazard (SR/Stealth Ice/Stealth Grass etc etc) whatever can be stacked so you have to pick your hazard type.

    That immidiately renders the argument of that Pokémon can lose more than half of their health upon switch in useless.
  3. aAa123

    aAa123

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    1. cap SR damage on 2x and 4x
    2. more move to clear hazards
    3. a more promising fire starter
  4. kpatable

    kpatable

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    I would like to see something that balances out the types. Steel, Water, Dragon, etc. overwhelm the metagame, and it's pretty ridiculous. Not to mention how having a type weak to rock can lessen a Pokemon's usability automatically. Whether it be a new type or not, types need rebalancing.
  5. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    So I know what I'd like to see: Some more fast Fire types. I'm running a Scarf Infernape on a sun team currently (not too terrible because sun-boosted Flare Blitz is good for cleaning/taking out weak stuff) but he's just... Weak. Ugh. I'd be fine with a special Fire type (I'm running a physical Infernape), just one that's as fast or faster with better than base 104 offenses.
  6. vyomov

    vyomov

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    We already have one but it was broken(Blaziken, that's why it went to ubers)
    To be honest I'd like a bulky Ice/Steel Type that has good defenses and amazing SpA
  7. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    The difference was that Blaziken itself wasn't naturally fast, it had Speed Boost. I also think we need a swift fire type, maybe something like Alakazam stylistically, except has high Atk instead of SpA.
  8. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Not Zam! Zam is REALLY Frail and priority just kills it :)
    Sun teams need a Fire type Magic Bounce or a Fire type Magic Guard special attacker
  9. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    May as well chime in. Contrary to what a lot of other people have done (chime in with their opinion consisting of a few sentences) I feel like I should make a longer post; not because it is superior to briefly posting your thoughts - what the goal of this topic is - but because there are already 30+ pages of this and throwing in my 2-3 line thoughts are probably overkill (and may not even be read). I will try to summarize what a lot of people have already said and interject my own thoughts as well.

    Offensive pokemon vs. Defensive pokemon
    First of all, the most common complaint is the amount of threats and lack of defensive options (or defensive 'threats' even) in today's metagame. I totally agree with this. This doesn't mean that we like to play 300-turn games back-to-back and solely rely on spamming status and hazards, it simply means that it creates a somewhat boring onesided game that doesn't reward switching. Additionally, the lack of defensive pokemon puts a strain on teambuilding, there are simply so many threats to keep track of that eventually you'll find yourself helpless against something like a sub/focus blast/roost Hydreigon, no matter how good your team is. You may not see that particular set in your next 100, 200 or even 300 games but due to the sheer amount of threats you may encounter a scenario like this in a large percentage of your games where you are swept by a rare moveset/pokemon.
    Unlike in for example gen 3, you cannot say 'alright, Skarmory and Blissey... lets add Claydol too, now I can wall a lot of threats'. Keep in mind that this core didn't even wall most attacks: a CB Heracross (especially when status'd and enjoying a guts boost) could still OHKO all three of these pokemon. Suicune could set-up against these three pokemon as well and pull off a 6-0 and although Zapdos couldn't hurt Blissey it could easily outstall it with resttalk. You were by no means safe, but you had a 'core', a way of dealing with most threats. This doesn't exist in bw2, which is why a lot of people have asked for 'the next Skarmory/Blissey'.

    Moves; how they disincentivize switching in this gen
    Not only pokemon are the cause of such an offensive meta, moves are as well. Switching isn't rewarded in the same way it was in gen 3 because moves are too strong. Let us take scald for an example: in gen 3, it would be a great tactical decision to switch in your Gyarados against a surf, allowing you to set-up or at least giving you a free attack. With scald, not so much: the 30% burn is just too strong. Swapping in your Tyranitar against Heatran? No thanks, lava plume has 30% burn. Moves have gotten stronger too, many times have I seen the words 'it's not very effective...' scroll uselessly across my screen as my pokemon just lost 60-70% of its health. U-turn and volt switch are also excellent examples of broken moves that give the attacker too much momentum. If I'm up against Rotom-W and am forced to swap out, he can simply volt switch, see what I swapped to and then swap in the appropriate counter. This was possible in gen 3 only by drypassing (baton pass first turn) and was the main reason for banning ingrain Smeargle, as Ninjask leads could bp the first turn and then bp to smeargle if they brought in their phazer or to something tanky like Umbreon to take the hit (who in turn usually sported mean look and taunt). U-turn and volt switch are apparently fair game now, however.

    The next thing that disincentivizes switching is stealth rock: present in exactly 100.00% of competitive teams (maybe not on a very small amount of full baton pass teams), your pokemon are going to take damage upon switching in lest they have specific abilities and/or typing. Sleep has gotten a significant boost which made pokemon such as Breloom only stronger and once again disincentivized defensive rest-usage as switching reset the counter. Lets not forget that Draco Meteor and Outrage also pack a tremendous punch and are hard to wall - something we didn't have in earlier gens at all.

    Let us not forget priority moves and new boosting moves such as shell smash and quiver dance, whereas you'd previously only got to set up +2 at a time (either by +1/+1 to stats such as dragon dance or calm mind or just +2 by swords dance), you can now set up faster by using quiver/shell smash. Just using swords dance and then abusing priority moves is also a viable option: you used to care about speed, even running jolly instead of adamant, but now you can swords dance with Lucario or Scizor and extremespeed/bullet punch away, not caring about the speed aspect.

    Weather and how it benefits offense more than defense
    It's quite simple: it adds another STAB to your water and fire moves. It does decrease the power of opposing water/fire moves but due to overwhelming moves (as explained above), +value is generally given to the offensive party rather than the defensive party, even when the defensive party makes something which intuitively should be considered a smart switch (i.e. an example of switching Gyarados into scald is listed above). Although rain may make Ferrothorn that much more dangerous by helping his x4 fire weakness, it also makes water attacks much more powerful against him. With rain up, certain things simply become close to or actually unwallable: choice specs Keldeo can hydro pump nearly every mon for respectable damage whereas a choice band Victini under sun doesn't care about what you swap in as long as it doesn't have flash fire: a CB Victini's V-create under sun does over 150 power off 328 attack against pokemon that x4 resist fire after weather, STAB and CB have been taken into account. To give you an idea: it OHKOs full health Gliscor.

    New items benefit offense
    Whereas we used to have only choice band, we now have things like choice specs, choice scarf, type gems, life orb, expert belt and whatnot whereas we only got extremely limited defensive items (eviolite is limited in its use, defensive berries are barely used, focus sash doesn't really help defensive pokemon but rather offensive pokemon). Flame orbs or toxic orbs to activate guts don't help the defensive side either.

    Abilities
    Abilities aren't that bad of an offender; things like Multiscale, Prankster, Thick Fat, Regenerator, Magic Guard, Intimidate, Rain Dish, Poison Heal, ..., ..., are all great defensive abilities that I feel are on par with their offensive counterparts like Moxie, Mold Breaker, Chlorophyll, Technician, ..., ..., The problem definitely isn't with abilities.

    Conclusion
    Today's metagame with a large distribution of powerful technician'd priority moves and lack of defensive options promote letting your pokemon stay in and die so you can revengekill the other pokemon. The power of switching is heavily diminished due to strong moves (either due to sheer power or strong primary/secondary effects) or simply strong offensive pokemon. The switch from gen 3 to gen 4 introduced the special/physical split by move rather than by type, making pokemon such as Skarmory or pure water types - who previously had no physical weaknesses - more susceptible to the type of attack they are supposed to wall, as the aforementioned Skarmory will die more easily to physical attacks now due to things such as fire punch, flare blitz and so forth, meaning that if you want to cover physical weaknesses you can't just run Skarmory and be largely safe; you need something that can wall physical fire/electric attacks as well. With defense nerfed and offense buffed (as well as the amount of threats being increased) it is very hard to play a more defensive, safe style as it is hard to properly prepare for everything that can be thrown at you, you simply don't have enough slots.

    Suggestions

    Weather: Drizzle, Sand stream, Snow warning and Drought should not be permanent. It's hard to give you a number, but I feel 10-12 turns would be appropriate, forcing you to bring your Politoed or Ninetales in more against weatherless, giving the opponent more chance of wearing it down. Additionally, 1.5x multiplier on fire and water is a bit too much, I'd prefer to see it lowered to something like 1.3x. Hail should also be boosted, perhaps get the 1.3x multiplier on ice. I'd also like to see some abilities that affect weather: Air Lock or Cloud Nine on usable pokemon or even entirely new abilities revolving weather. Additionally, I'd like to see new types of weather that benefit different types and provide unique mechanics, i.e. 'dark night' for dark pokemon, 'acid rain' for poison types and what not. This could provide any type of non-unimaginative-damage-boost(-as-seen-with-rain-and-sun)-bonus ranging from extra speed to an added chance to flinch.
    Sleep: sleep buff should be undone.
    Moves: things with a secondary effect such as scald (or even thunderbolt and flamethrower) should not be able to have their special effect triggered if the move is resisted. This allows me to actually swap in something such as Gyarados against scald and nerfs arguably 'lame' things such as Tentacruel spamming scald in rain.
    Types: I'd like to see a new (defensive) type that is immune to dragon and has bonus damage against dragon and steel. This would allow defensive pokemon to not be set-up fodder for the enemy Ferrothorn or dragons and would make people think twice about spamming Outrage.
    Team preview: I would actually like to see this removed. Usually, the more information the more skill-based a game is, chess being the ultimate example. With perfect information you do not have to make assumptions and you are never punished for 'good play', whereas in a game of imperfect information - such as poker - you may be punished for good play by losing to a hand which had only 8% chance of beating you. In a game such as poker where you play many, many hands per hour this is not as detrimental because eventually players who play well will be rewarded, but in a game of pokemon where most rounds are a best of 1 or at most a bo3, the good player may simply not always win. Providing more information in terms of team preview actually does not help: it simply turns into another rock-paper-scissors game where you can lead with pokemon A that would stop enemy pokemon X or with pokemon B that would stop enemy pokemon Y, with pokemon A losing to pokemon Y and B losing to X. A lot of good leads are also rendered useless due to team preview and actually enables people to spam their outrages: they know your options. Explosion's damage was essentially halved, but in gen 3 it wasn't a big problem due to no team preview: a CB Metagross lead in gen 3 could OHKO nearly everything (even some Skarmory) but wasn't a dominant strategy because there was no team preview, you had no idea what the opponent was packing.
    Moves: U-turn and volt switch should force you to select your switch-in before using them so you cannot see what your opponent is going to switch in and then appropriately counter that switch-in without losing any value. They should also do less damage to a substitute: if you are stuck in an unfavorable match-up (i.e. Rotom-W vs. Breloom) you should not be able to switch out and break the substitute at the same time, it takes away from the power of substitute and prediction. Right now, u-turn and volt switch are just 'hurrr, always +value'-moves.
    Pokemon teams: I'd actually like to see 7 or 8 pokemon being the maximum in a team rather than the usual 6. This may rustle some 'nostalgiafags' but I think it would contribute to a healthy, innovative metagame.
    Will-O-Wisp and Toxic: I'd like to see Toxic finally getting 100% accuracy and would love to see Will-O-Wisp boosted to at least 80%, preferably 85%.
    Stealth rock revamp: GF needs to make up their minds about what they want SR to accomplish. Is it simply a hazard to punish flying types who are immune to spikes? If so, have it only affect pokemon who are flying or levitating for 25% of their health (the same as 3 layers of spikes). This would make SR optional instead of a must have on every. single. team. Do you want stealth rock to be like spikes? Then have the damage capped at 1/8th maximum damage while keeping the 1/16th and 1/32th damage done to resistant pokemon so there are at least some counterplay possibilities.
    Rapid spin and spinblocking: I'd like to see another move - maybe even 2 moves - that accomplishes the same thing as rapid spin. This attack should be of another type, i.e. a ghost type or should simply be useful rather than being useless offensively.
  10. aAa123

    aAa123

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    GF should also fix double team / minimize. Mons should not be immune to death after using 4 double team / minimize.
  11. Psylink

    Psylink

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    We have a weather reducing ability, but we don't have decent users, and the only one that is is banned (Quaza). Ideally, it would have a lot of HP and usable defenses. That would be great. Yet again, Trollfreak will probably live up to it's name. :(
  12. MicfiJasan

    MicfiJasan

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    Responding to HUARGH's suggestions, since some of them are very interesting, but maybe with a more... realistic perspective to some of them. I'll just bold the topics because I'll be going through them in a different order than he listed (based generally on how much I agree with them) and I don't want to insert a bunch of small quotes with a bunch of small responses. So...

    More Pokemon per Team: I think there was an "Other Metagame" created for this, but don't expect this to become the standard. Looking realistically, Game Freak has based this entire franchise around a team of 6 Pokemon, and while the increased number of threats makes 6 too small to effectively cover everything, going against it changes something so fundamental to the franchise. Not being a "nostalgiafag", just looking realistically at what Gen VI would bring.

    New Defensive Type: First off, while there is some typing imbalance, there needs to be some sort of logic when a new type is created. Dragons are meant to be mythical, ultra-powerful Pokemon, so nothing is realistically going to be immune to their attacks. You might be able to create a new type that resists Dragon, or alter the previous type chart to slightly nerf it (say, Ice now resists Dragon). While changes and additions to the type chart are certainly possible and may balance out some of the kinks they currently have, there must be some sense of logic to those changes, or Pokemon will lose legitimacy among the general public who makes up the bulk of the game's consumption.

    Adjusting Secondary Effects: The concept behind your suggestion was interesting, I think the execution goes a little too far. Again, looking realistically, something that resists a move still takes damage, so he still is hurt by the move. That said, if he is hurt less, wouldn't it make sense if he was less afflicted by the secondary effect? I think making the secondary affect chance somewhat proportional to the type effectiveness can make logical sense, and I would support it being implemented in the game. There is an issue with Scizor being 100% burned by Lava Plume that way, but if he doesn't die to Lava Plume something's wrong with the attacker. Maybe capping both ends at a factor of 2 (1/2 chance if resist, double chance if weak). It gives an incentive to switching out of a super-effective move because you would now be more vulnerable to a crippling effect by staying in, while making a smart switch-in less vulnerable to hax.

    No Team Preview: Personally split on this one. One one hand, given that the only Team Preview we have in game is by looking up a guide (I'm pretty sure stuff like the World Tournament doesn't have it), it would make sense if multiplayer matches re-accepted this trait as well. That said, Game Freak isn't going to rush to undo this recently added trait. I personally think lead matchups are not the reason why TP is seen as "bad". Yes, some leads are now unviable, but if your lead has a bad matchup against another lead, then you still have a chance of starting out on the right foot. Previously, if your lead beat 80% of the common leads in the metagame, you started out the match behind if the opponent just so happened to carry one of the 20% that beat you, something completely out of your control. I believe equally well-constructed teams should start out on even footing, something that TP provides in a limited sense. However, what may totally overshadow the lead aspect of TP is that it virtually eliminates the need to scout. TP now lets you see what strategies you opponent is likely to run, like playing a poker hand with the cards face-up. Concealing information is a good part of many strategy based games, and if I could choose I would probably choose no TP, but I don't choose so I can only cross my fingers.

    Stealth Rock Revamp: A touchy subject for me, because Rocks are such an interesting concept. That said, there are some limitation to what we can logically expect to change from it. First, eliminating weaknesses to it won't happen. If something is attacked by rocks switching in, is there really that much of a difference to being attacked by rocks from a Rock-type? If there is, I would say that 4x weaknesses/resistances go to 2x weak/resist (so 1/16th, 1/8th, and 1/4th as the only damage options). I do like that anti-air option though, but I can't truly judge whether that 1/4th still neuters those Pokemon that much. I also think a "hazard counter" could be implemented, so you can say have Rocks as they are, but not Rocks and Spikes and/or TSpikes. This could technically allow them to introduce new hazards like the anti-steel ones people are mentioning (granted, I see Stealth Fighting as more realistic than Stealth Fire, just saying), without being too hazard-centric.

    VoltTurn Revamp: Short answer: pick one. Picking the new switch in before the attack makes perfect sense, so you don't have the option of doing damage and being guaranteed an advantage on a virtual double-switch. You can also make them do less damage, say 40-50 BP. This allows advantageous matchups to potentially keep a Sub up, or not be put in range for an easy KO by a more shaky check if you don't resist it. A much softer nerf, but still could be effective. And make sure its general damage, not just against Subs, mainly because that's too specific of a change to logically expect Game Freak to make (let's make Subs have more defense only against these two moves doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about it).

    Rapid Spin and Spinblocking: I agree on wanting another, different-typed Rapid Spin. Given how entry hazards were made more diverse in Gen IV, it would make sense that getting rid of them would become more diverse as well. Perhaps a non-damaging one that always works except when Taunted, an Electric/Ground/Psychic one that opens up some new spinblocking types. I might say that this topic makes more sense for a Substitute buff than VoltTurn, since Subs generally block secondary effects anyway (think Dragon Tail vs. Roar). Logically makes sense to make this field more diverse, but not necessarily high on my priorities list.

    Status Moves: Yes, with status being an important part of the game, it's unfortunate that arguably the second most gamebreaking one (Sleep) has a 100% accurate move for it. Upping WoW's accuracy would help defend against physical attackers just a little bit better, and when Toxic is used it's generally considered bad hax if it misses. Maybe a 100% accurate burn move as a signature move on a new legendary is another option, but that's getting more into speculation.

    Sleep: At the very least, Rest should not reset when you switch. If we assume the period that a Pokemon can Rest is finite, then there's no reason to have any loophole that can prolong it indefinitely. I wouldn't mind the entire Sleep mechanics to go back to Gen IV, but at the very least don't extend it to Rest users. I think a Spored Pokemon can wake up the first turn its brought back in, so why would it make sense for Rest users to not be able to do that?

    Weather Nerf: I, and likely many others, agree with just about everything you said here. More viable Cloud Nine users for sure, that's probably the least Game Freak could do for us. Setting Drizzle/etc to 8 turns is what I initially thought of, since it is possible to successfully run Damp Rock rain teams in lower tiers. Maybe holding the weather rocks increases the duration to 12 turns. Still gives people an advantage for using weather, but not so much that they can just sac the weather setter against weatherless teams. Also agree with the power nerf. Just about every ability/item increases attack power by a maximum of 20% if there's no drawbacks (not counting Huge/Pure Power and Thick Club). Giving a 30% boost, essentially a Life Orb boost, is still significant without being able to necessarily power through absolutely everything in its path that isn't immune. And obviously Hail is currently so far behind everything else right now so a buff to counteract Rain and Sun nerfs (Sand I don't know what to do with) would be great.

    tl;dr Umm... look for the most interesting bolded portion for you and just read that. Too many different topics to summarize completely.
  13. Sound

    Sound

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    Weather: Why are you guys making new mechanics for it? Very few people say Sand and Hail are broken, why not just nerf Sun and Rain to their level? No more boosts/nerfs on Water/Fire moves, while everything else stays in tact. Abilities still activate, moves still get accuracy boosts, etc. All things, considered, Sun and Rain would still be the most powerful weather (barring new Sand and Hail abusers) thanks to their wonderful Chloro and (now not broken) Swift-Swimmers, but weather is still hit hard.

    Hazards: SR does 12% to grounded Pokémon, 18% to non-grounded. Simple as that. Any Pokémon immune to Spikes is taking the equivalent of 2 layers, which isn't game breaking. However, as others have said, more removal methods. Preferably, ones that don't cause free turns but come with some drawbacks to compensate for the fact that SR setting is a free turn (maybe a ground type move that removes hazards from both sides).

    My two cents, anyhow.
  14. meinfoo22

    meinfoo22

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    Nitmar The Baby Pokemon

    I'm definitely looking forward to Generation VI. I've lately been watching Youtube and I saw a video with a baby pokemon related to Drowzee. I don't know its name, but I'd call it Nitmar, which is a misspelling of nightmare, just like how Drowzee is a misspelling of drowsy. I wanna put up a movest I think is reasonable. Moveset: Pound (Level 1), Hypnosis (Level 1), Confusion (Level 5), Nightmare, (Level 9).
  15. meinfoo22

    meinfoo22

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    New Starters

    Chespin, Fennekin, and Froakie. The starters for Generation VI. Here are their statistics in my opinion. Chespin looks like it has average HP, average Attack, low Defense, high Special Attack, average Special Defense, and high Speed. This is unusual for a grass-type, since grass-types are usually defensive and Chespin looks offensive. Fennkin looks like it has average HP, high Attack, average Defense, average Special Attack, low Special Defense, and high Speed. This makes its stats the opposite of Chespin's. Lastly, Froakie looks like it has average HP, average Attack, high Defense, average Special Attack, high Special Defense, and average Speed. This makes Froakie seem the most balanced out of the starters.
  16. Cobraroll

    Cobraroll
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    This is a confirmed fake. It's a fakemon head photoshopped on the body of the Pikachu seen in the trailer.
  17. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

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    How can you tell? I'm a bit confused on your reasoning
  18. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

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    You can have a rough idea of a Pokemon's stat spread by looking at it usually (e.g. if it has claws, sharp teeth, fists, etc. it probably has a high attack, if it has a shell it probably has a high defense). And you can usually tell if a Pokemon has a high or low speed stat by how it looks (although there are exceptions, like Miltank is much faster than it looks like it would be).
  19. tintinwong

    tintinwong

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    according to CoroCoro,
    The panda is called Yancham ( ヤンチャム) and is the Naughty Pokémon. It is Fighting-type, 0.6m and 8.0kg. It has a new move called Parting Remark which lowers the opponents stats and causes the user to switch out.

    If this pokemon has a high enough base speed, this move is an excellent for keeping momentum, and forcing switches and getting free set up turns, and doesn't kill you in the process.

    We are allowed to discuss this right?
  20. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    I hope parting remark doesn't do more than -1 to a single stat, it looks like too good of a move otherwise!

    Ideally it'd -1 a random stat and it might be balanced.. if it lowers a specific stat that could be a little too good :P, it'd dictate what pokemon you can switch in!

    Parabola charge looks fairly useless, electric types seem to have a hard enough time deciding between volt switch thunderbolt and thunder and ground types are everywhere, throw in the fact that bulky electrics (ie eelektross) can't really "wall" effectively and hence make use of recovery defensively and I can't see too many uses for it.

    The panda looks like it could have a final evo that'd be OU viable, seeing as it has potential to be a pure fighting or dual typed with grass/dark (based on looking at the design and the fact that it is a "naughty" pokemon) and has the cool parting remark, if it gets sap sipper (pandas are herbivores) then it'd make a great Breloom/Amoonguss counter. The stag looks like a sawbuck/bouffalant v2 really or a hybrid of the two, the fact that it learns horn leech and will probably have a decent attack makes it sound like it will be a bulkier sawsbuck lol. The robin looks alright but I can't see an early route bird outclassing staraptor anytime soon, staraptor really had it all lol. The electric/normal looks like it will be a sun abuser!! hooray for more versatile sun threat potentials!!
  21. tintinwong

    tintinwong

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    Since its a "naughty Pokemon", it having prankster as an ability is not too unimaginable.
    Since parting remark, like memento, doesn't seem like an attacking move, this combo will probably be über worthy.

    That little robin, like starly looks innocent and weak, but who knows what kind of monster it might evolve into.
  22. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    I mean, it could be something stupid like -1 Evasion and switch out that really wouldn't be amazing or anything.

    Only time will tell.
  23. justinjiaxinghu

    justinjiaxinghu

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    Not sure if someone said this already but, a priority FIRE TYPE MOVE. This would finally make Scizor less used and a decent Breloom counter.
  24. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    Based on the name, I'd say the most logical non damaging "status" it would do would be a taunt. Remarking something then going back to the pokeball, typical dark type flavour move :P

    Can I ask you to elaborate on the priority fire move? Must have missed it.
  25. aAa123

    aAa123

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    A fire type version of Extreme Speed
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