1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. Click here to ensure that you never miss a new SmogonU video upload!

Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Huntofthelion, Jan 8, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.


    Apr 26, 2006
    A simple thing they could do is also simply change the damage formula for that moves in general do less damage. They've changed it at least once before I think (between Gen III and Gen IV?).

    Another thing that happened between Gen III and Gen IV was the physical/special split, which in my opinion was the most damaging thing to defensive play. Back when I started playing, it was simply a case of packing Skarmory, Weezing or Forretress to deal with phsyical attackers (although many started carrying Fire Blast towards the end of the era), and Blissey to deal with special attackers (again, some started using the likes of Focus Punch after a while). However, today you simply can't do that. Skarmory, Weezing, etc. all are now weak to some special moves.

    Another thing is that good moves get added every generation. Every Pokemon's movepool expands and expands, and their movesets get stronger and stronger. It was easier to wall the dragons back in Gen III where the best they could get Earthquake, Hidden Power Flying, Rock Slide, and then some special coverage moves coming off their more average Sp. Atk stats. But it's harder now when they're all throwing around stuff like Outrage, Dragon Claw, elemental punches, Aqua Tail, etc. from their enourmous attack stats. Not to mention back then they'd often have to set up with Dragon Dance, but that's less necessary now, they have the power and speed (or Choice Scarf) to just attack from the get-go more often.
  2. RabidChipmunk


    Jul 18, 2012
    I don't understand; are you saying the Physical/Special split was a bad thing? 'Cuz I honestly can't tell. I haven't been around long enough to know what competitive play was like before it, but the Phys/Spc split gave a lot of Pokemon a second chance at life (Feraligator was pretty happy about it), and like you said, it made it so certain Pokemon can't counter every Physical or Special threat.

    All defense needs to make a comeback are Pokemon that have the right tools to abuse it. Cofagrigus and Ferrothorn were both big steps in the right direction, even if the rest of Gen V went offense out the ass; if Cofagrigus had a recovery move and a higher HP stat, it'd be an incredible wall. Exploring the defensive advantages of new typings (namely those that aren't part Steel-type) might also uncover some strong defensive candidates.
  3. G-Von


    Jun 19, 2011
    Some ways to buff hail teams:

    During hail, Ice type moves increase in power by 50% and grass-type moves decrease in power by 50%.: as you can see, this is a slightly different angle than what most people had in mind to buff hail. This way, ice moves become stronger and can give some pokemon pseudo-STAB attacks. This would be a gigantic buff for Hidden Power Ice users. This would also hurt dragon-types, especially Multiscale Dragonite, who would normally be able to live through most ice attacks at full health. This next part definitely has some people wondering "what the fuck is this kid talkng about..." and the answer is: logic. When the weather gets cold outside in the fall and heads into winter, yearling plants die off and leaves fall off of tree and grow back in the Spring time when the weather gets warmer (for the people who live in a warm climate all year-round, fuck you). This represents that grass-types become weaker in the cold, icy weather, therefore, should be treated as a fire-type attack in the rain or a water-type attack in the sun.

    Ice-type and Water-type pokemon take no damage from hail: now people probably think I have lost my mind. "We are trying to hinder water pokemon, not benefit them!!!!" Actually, that is not the case. We want Drizzle to get nerfed, so by buffing Snow Warning with giving water pokemon immunity to hail damage, people will be very inclined to building Hail teams now. This also may help Blastoise go up in usage(ok thats a bit of a stretch, I know it would be Starmie instead). Defensive pokemon like Swampert, Quagsire, and Gastrodon would BOOM in usage since they would not be taking any damage and only be 2 times weak to grass type moves instead of 4 times weak. Seismitoad and Whiscash would still suck I guess not everyone can win.

    Grass and Water type attacks would be resisted by Ice type pokemon: aaaaaaaaand I am back! But yea, Ice type pokemon only resist ice type attacks and nothing else. They should not be taking neutral damage in the first place from Grass moves, as you can use the seasonal example I used earlier. I also do not think Water attacks should be doing neutral damage to Ice type pokemon. Ice is just another form of water, so I think Ice should at the very least be resisted, if not immune to water attacks.

    That is all for now :]
  4. tintinwong


    Feb 12, 2012
    I think they should give te regi a new abilities(probably minus gigas)
    Regice snow warning, regirock sand stream, and registeel a filter-like ability.
    Along with hail giving SDef boost to ice types.

    The weathers because RSE was the weather inducing gen. It's only fair that sand and hail gets summoned too.
  5. IcyMan28


    Sep 18, 2008
    The grass type does not need any further nerfs. Sure it's always been a defensive type, but yet another offensive nerf would be uncalled for.

    Also, I'd expect Air Lock/Cloud Nine to gain a weather clearing effect before Drizzle/Drought themselves get a turn limit. They are, first and foremost, the signature abilities of the Ruby and Sapphire mascots and I highly doubt GF would take that away from them. Not to mention that they wouldn't exclude Sandstream and Hail from this limitation and that it would have few practical effects reality. 8 turns is a long time; either you'll bring in your own inducer ASAP to change the weather as usual, or your weather inducer is dead/you didn't have one and the opponent has more than enough turns to finish you with their weather of choice.

    Luxray and Electivire are garbage because of either low BP attacks (not so much Luxray, at least it has Superpower) or mediocre stats. A viable physical electric outside Zekrom would be nice.

    EDIT: Much like the SpD boost helps patch up rock-types more vulnerable side, I think Ice would benefit more from Hail granting a Def boost. Lessening the blows of Fighting/Rock/Steel moves (all of which are overwhelmingly physical) would be great.
  6. Mazz

    Mazz a slightly grizzled veteran
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus

    Feb 4, 2011
    To start this off, I really feel bad for Zarel if PS! is gonna try to incorporate the 3D renditions of this game. Over 700 species of Pokemon (confirmed btw) with that calibre of design? Good luck mate. You're gonna need it. Might learn how to code and program to help you out with that tbh.

    Besides that, I'm not going to hop on the bandwagon of hopes of an insurgence of more defensive threats. Judging by the designs of the Legendaries (basing this off of what happened with Sinnoh and Unova), we'll wind up with an overly offensive metagame. Looking back at it; Dialga and Palkia - giant dragons that looked like they wanted to kick someone's teeth in, Reshiram and Zekron - see Dialga and Palkia. Offensive-looking legendaries I find result in an offensive metagame. Look at Lugia and Ho-Oh, not terribly offensive looking, and we wound up with a bulkier group of Pokemon in Johto (Suicune, Hitmontop, Slowking, Lugia). From my point of view, both Xerneas and Yveltal look relatively threatening, which if the past games follow suit, should indicate that the metagame is in for another offensive spike.

    Of course, that's simply a load of theorymon, and shouldn't be taken as the end-all-be-all of theories on how to predict the offensiveness of a planned metagame. I'd love to be wrong, but I'm not counting on it.
  7. Sciztar


    Mar 24, 2012
    I would actually like some new weather, one of the new weather abilities can be called


    What this does is make an infinite swarm of bees (Combees) swarm the battlefield whenever Vesipqueen or SepiKing(Combee's male evolution) comes out on the field. This will act just like hail, except Psychic types and Dark type will take more damage, around 1/8 of damage every turn.

    • Fire types take no damage from the Swarm.

    • Bug moves are increased by 1/2 and their fire weakness is decreased by 1/4 due to the heavy swarm of bees.

    • Pokemon with the Ability Hive has a 10% chance of not being hit by any attack. This ability will act as Sand Veil

    Or we can have Acid Rain

    Its almost like the move Scald and Drizzle together.

    • With Acid Rain all Poison and Dark types are immune to the damage by Acid rain.

    • Swift Swim does activate, but it causes a 1/16 damage recoil every time you use an attacking move.

    Those are suggestions, but hey we can only hope for a new weather.
  8. RabidChipmunk


    Jul 18, 2012
    I honestly thought Xerneas looked more along the lines of a mighty tank, mixing offense and defense. I mean, look at those horns -- yeah he can ruin your day with them, but I don't see why he couldn't use them to keep you from ruining his day as well.
  9. HolyAvatar


    Apr 13, 2012
    Stall is definitely going to be even less viable, be it for just one reason: more pokemon means more threats to prepare against. Even if new offensive threats are on par (or slightly weaker) with what we have now, it's going to be harder to build a stall team.
    Very good defensive pokes unless plentiful will just be the new Ferrothorn i.e. used as a defensive pivot on every balanced/bulky offense team.
  10. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Jun 11, 2010
    I'm sure they won't use 3D models because, well one: it's completely impractical and unrealistic, and two: ripping anything from the 3DS is impossible...? I looked into it and found nothing.

    And if we're not satisfied with in-battle screen caps as "sprites" and we really want sprites back, artists are already making not only sprites but animated sprites and it's only been 2 days, folks.

    So yeah, I wouldn't worry about Pokemon Showdown looking any worse just because of 6th Gen.
  11. nyttyn

    nyttyn Nueeeeeeeeeeeeen!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributor

    Sep 8, 2010
    Actually, I'd like to step in and say it'd be possible - just not highly practical for a one man show. I'd imagine it'd actually be highly possible in Unity, but it'd have to be a more-then-one-man project. Ripping the models from the game might be a pain as well, but we ripped sprites easily so who knows, perhaps ripping files from 3ds carts is equally similar. I can't say much on that as I'm not a expert, but...

    And if worse comes to worse, as this fine chap said Smogon can just launch a massive spriter project and hand out badges galore.
  12. JacobJinglepocket


    Sep 7, 2011
    Unless it's incredibly specially defensive and in the rain, in which case, you're screwed. As much as I'd like to see a Ghost/Steel type, I don't think it should have Levitate. That's giving it a bit too much, imho.

    Anyway, one of the things I'd like to see is the fazing out of random critical hits. Nothing's worse than switching a Blissey into Latios' Draco Meteor, only for it to crit and 2HKO you. You might as well throw strategy out the window when they happen. It's like if someone randomly walks in on a chess game and takes away your opponent's Queen when you capture a pawn.

    But Jacob!, you cry, critical hits are for keeping set-up Pokemon like Jirachi and Volcarona from pubstomping your team! To which I say, firstly, if random events of kindness are your only answer to these Pokes, your team needs to be reevaluated; secondly, Gen 5 took a step in the right direction with the moves Frost Breath and Storm Throw, which have weak base powers, but always crit. I'd like to see more of these kinds of moves in Gen 6.

    Something else I'd like to see is a Rock-type version of Overheat. I'd really like to see a Rock-type that can use special attacks besides T-tar. That, and a move that can disable an opponent's ability for the duration of the match; basically, a permanent version of Worry Seed or Entrainment.

    Otherwise, most people have already stated some really cool ideas, like buffing Ice-type's resistances, nerfs to permaweather abilities, an accuracy buff to WoW, and changing the sleep mechanics back to how there were pre-Gen 5.
  13. CTC

    CTC The Lord Shepherd shall guideth ye cattle
    is a Past WCoP Championis a defending SPL Champion

    Oct 26, 2012
    I'm looking forward to the very probably buff in OFFENSE just like the trend of gen 1>>>gen 5 has indicated. Fighting/Dragon please? If so then a steel/ghost is definitely needed to keep it in ou. Just imagine terrak + fight drag.... I hope gamefreak continues the trend of buffing ass mons w abilities/moves/special niches and picks up on gen 1/2 mons that really sucked ass.... or maybe evolutions even! Please more stuff like mamo and not evire.
  14. Huntofthelion

    Huntofthelion Live for the nights you can't remember
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 2, 2008
    Can we try and stay on track and not discuss Zarel's issues with implementing gen 6 into PS, as even though I appreciate the work this really isn't the place for it.

    Anyways a couple ideas I've really liked so far is the continuation of trying to make things that are terrible viable in a competitive landscape. Provided that it never produces another Sabeleye again I think it's definitely a plus for the metagame if more and more things can fill a niche role. I'd also really like some better ways of removing hazards as hazards are really annoying. Overall a lot of really cool ideas so far in this thread, been a really interesting read so far!
  15. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

    Mar 2, 2011
    If I was in charge of game freak I would give the following Pokemon the following moves:

    Suicune: recover
    Uxie: recover
    Registeel: recover
    Snorlax: slack off
    Regice: recover
    Regirock: recover
    Shuckle: recover + aromatherapy / seismic toss / rapid spin
    Steelix: slack off
    Alomomola: seismic toss or aromatherapy
    Donphan: slack off
    Drapion: recover
    Weezing: recover
    Umbreon: idk something

    In a category all his own:
    Ferrothorn: rapid spin

    Maybe sparkle over some magic natural cure or regenerator dust and I may have just made these lower tier defensive behemoths viable.

    I wonder what can and should learn rapid spin though, after all Tentacruel, a jellyfish can spin, so maybe Jellicent? Lol the first spinner and ghost all in one.

    Just my crazy rant I wanted to throw out there.
  16. IcyMan28


    Sep 18, 2008
    I disagree. Just look at how powerful our sweepers have become. Either perfect STABs with fantastic coverage or an exhaustive move pool capable of covering almost every angle. Look at SpD Jirachi, for example. LO Thundurus was able to do like 44% with LO STAB Thunderbolt, I believe. Not only that, but rain would make it alot more susceptible to Water attacks despite lessening the fire weak. I want levitate to make it the ultimate spin blocker and avoid the common ground coverage that goes with Rock/Dragon, but I guess with enough defense it wouldn't mind too much. I'd be flexible on that.
  17. Mashfinch


    Apr 27, 2012
    This is a nice list, but the flavour for some of these doesn't make sense to me, why would alomomola get seismic toss? I just want heal bell bronzong, for god's sakes, it is an actual bell.

    I'd be very confused if recover suddenly became more widely distributed, esp. among legendaries, but slack off would be amazing for so many pokemon but Iirc slack off is currently only distributed via breeding, so im not sure if any older mons would get it, had GF ever changed breedable moves between older pokemon in new gens?
  18. TooMuchSugar


    Oct 19, 2012
    How about a rapid spin clone with a different typing? It would have to be something that can be blocked, like ground or electric. Maybe an electric type rapid spin for the rotom formes? That would probably just be overpowered, but it's an interesting concept to me, anyway. If it was electric, then Golurk could get a boost for being able to block both kinds of hazard removal...
    Anyway, I think that the X and Y legendaries look like they could be a mix of offense and defense... my random guess is that X gets physical attack and special defense, Y gets special attack and physical defense. Entirely made up, but it would be cool.
  19. Fawfulmk-II


    Mar 5, 2010
    *crosses fingers for Baton Pass*

    and speaking of Electric, as I said in the other thread they should get a priority attack next gen.

    EDIT: hey,I just thought of a legit SR nerf: what if Rock Type Pokemon could absorb them off the field when they switch in(like how it is with Toxic Spikes)?
  20. ClubbingSealCub


    Jun 23, 2012
    I'm kind of hoping for a fire-type rapid spin. Flash fire users would be a lot better in OU because of this, and at least Ferro and Forry would take some damage from this kind of spin. Chandelure would be able to block both spins, lol.

    I also think Defog should clear hazards off your field, not your opponent's. Being unblockable could maybe make it overpowered, but it deals no actual damage so taunt puts a stop to it.

    EDIT: You know what would be cool? Trap-kinesis. Swaps hazards with the opponent's field. Completely overpowered and potentially fucks up stall, but man, wouldn't it be awesome.
  21. Seven Eagles

    Seven Eagles

    Oct 25, 2010
    I have a couple ideas.

    Debuffing moves should work differently than buffing moves. They would be impossible to phaze, but debuffs would wear off after 5 turns or so.

    Stealth Rock should take two turns to set up. I'm actually incredibly surprised that this isn't the case right now.

    Rock types should resist Dragons, Poison types should hit Water types super effectively, and Ice should resist Bug and Water.
  22. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn a e s t h e t i c
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion

    Mar 17, 2012
    torkoal for ou

    and i also want starters that aren't terrible and/or uber (hi blaziken)


  23. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa

    Apr 12, 2012
    The only major change i want from gen 6 is more ways to deal with dragon types. I dont know if i'm alone on this but after the genesect ban i've found them to be increasingly difficult to deal with. Teams of Deoxys-D plus 5 dragons have become slightly viable and i dont think that is good for the metagame. Just a few more counters/ offensive threats that can deal with dragons is all that is needed. However, i would like them to be viable against other threats as well, not just have a niche for facing dragon types.
  24. TheFrogMafia


    Jan 9, 2013
    I wish to see a new typing or two. That would really shake up the metagame and have it adapt to such a drastic change.
  25. Preved Medved

    Preved Medved

    Jan 9, 2013
    Here's the list of things i want in XY:
    1-Evolutions of gen III pokemon.
    2-A decent Ice-Electric pokemon with sheer force.
    3-A nerf to entry hazards.
    4-Energy Ball for Electric and Fire pokemon.
    5-Electric and Fire type pryority.
    6-More offence.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)