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Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Huntofthelion, Jan 8, 2013.

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  1. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    I am seriously anticipating dual abilities with the "levitate dilemma" we observed in the generation IV to generation V shift.

    We know every gen, GF does some MAJOR changes to the metagame through controversial additions and I can totally see dual abilities being done.

    Flygon with levitate and sand veil at the same time lol. But onto the actual baddies: Gyarados with moxie and intimidate and breloom with poison heal and technician, etc.

    WCS I can at least see GF solving this "levitate dilemma"

    think Gengar, Claydol, Flygon
  2. Onicon

    Onicon

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    PMD works that way - they take every avaiable ability into consideration. Landorus with Sheer Force and Sand Rush? That is pain. Lucario who cannot flinch due Inner Focus and cannot gain speed up through Steadfast because of the inability to flinch? That is waste. Darmanitan has to use Zen-Mode? That is Archeops, but worse.

    The Levitating-dilemma hasn't break my suspension of disbelief yet, so I have no objections with the current system. No need to correct something that is not broken.
  3. Silenced Melody

    Silenced Melody

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    Personally, I liked the addition of Dream World abilities because it made Mons like Ninetales and Xatu usable in the OU metagame. I also want more of this in Gen VI although I sincerely hope that rain gets a nerf.

    When I played through D/P/P, I liked the idea of Fog and I wished that some Pokemon could benefit from the effect. It doesn't seem that bad of a weather to be incorporated.

    I have a feeling that if they do end up releasing a Dragon/Fighting Pokemon, they will indefinitely release a Ghost/Steel Pokemon along with it.
  4. Organization Member XIV

    Organization Member XIV

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    Silenced Melody has a point. Although, will they actually follow through with DW abilities, or does anyone think they will abandon DW abilities?
  5. tintinwong

    tintinwong

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    Although, if fog gets an auto-inducer, the misses may(will) piss off a majority of the players.
  6. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    They better. I want my Lightning Rob Zapdos and my Volt Absorb Raikou!
  7. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    Gens tend to have some gimmicks tied to that Gen. When the gen shift happens, those gimmicks are lost and just turned into normal mechanics.

    Deo formes, Milotic's evolution method changing entirely, stuff like that.

    Bets are on DW abilities getting some status like "breed while holding X item" and they'll have a DW ability rather than a normal ability, with the whole DW thing basically scrapped. Legends might get DW abilities by events instead or something.

    You never know though.
  8. Sacaen

    Sacaen

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    I feel that they put too much work into the Dream World stuff to scrap it completely, although you can already see it phazing out by making some DW abilities available ingame in bw2 instead of being exclusive to the dream world website like it was in the original BW (which was stupid, imo).

    I'd say DW abilities will still be harder to get than normal abilities, although I expect more will be available ingame, where others will be more exclusive through the website and events.
  9. Hugin

    Hugin

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    Abandon the concept, keep the "Third Ability". I'm thinking something like the Battle Tower, go somewhere and do events to earn points, eventually you get enough to unlock one of your mon's DW ability.
  10. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Honestly speed seems kinda odd for a Forretress evolution considering how dam slow it is. I would be more for a lazy moth kinda pokemon in homage to Forretress. Also why special attack? Forretress is a physical attacker.

    This is my idea, based on Volcarona's base stat of 550 to rival his mothy brethren.

    90 / 100 / 150 / 70 / 75 / 65

    Maybe give it u-turn to escape Magnezone's wrath.
  11. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    I only want weather to die once the weather inducer is fainted, it only makes sense and it would kill prolly like 10 birds with a stone. Also include a move that removes weather (instead of running other weather changing moves like Sunny Day/Hail).
  12. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    Man, it would be the coolest nerf ever to have the weather inducing abilities finish when the users switch out :D
  13. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Honestly, I'd much rather have a Forretress evolution that does well to differentiate itself from Forretress. Afterall, Evolite Forretress would still be in the meta-- and very popular; therefore, you'd want a poke that really differentiates itself.

    98 / 55 / 110 / 90 / 85 / 112 (if you want a 550 BST)

    Well, it's evolving into a flying insect, so why not give it Speed? Speed would make it a really interesting Spikes/Spinner, something that's never existed. Deoxys-S showed how powerful a fast supporter can be, and this one will have good defensive typing/stats and reliable recovery too.

    As for the rest of my spread, it makes more sense biologically. You're casting off that huge artificial armor bagworm larvae use, so of course you wouldn't have the same DEF. However, higher HP and Special Defense are on the menu for a fully evolved insect, giving you comparable (or better) overall bulk compared to Forretress-- enough to make your blistering Speed more powerful with Roost.

    Also why Special Attack? Because Venomoth, Volcarona, Butterfree, Beautifly, Masquaren, etc. pick your butterfly/moth pokemon-- they're all special attackers. As a flying insect, a Forry evo wouldn't have the low Speed to make use of Gyro Ball, so Flash Cannon's special STAB makes more sense, as does Bug Buzz for a Pokemon that would have no chance of learning X-Scissor or Megahorn due to it being a moth. The fact that it synergizes with Forretress's electric attacks, including Volt Switch, is icing on the cake. Of course it learning U-Turn makes more sense, but overall, I think a Special Attacker is a better fit; and again, would let itself differentiate from Forretress.
  14. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Its actually interesting because both of our propositions make sense for the bagworm moth. Male bag worm moths are very active, quick, and flies around, while female bag worm moths are big and fat rarely fly at all and remain roughly in the same place as they hatch. Some female moths don't even have wings! In theory gamefreak could make a split evolution line to portray this. Male bag worm moths actually don't have any moth parts at all, so I guess special attack might make more sense there.
  15. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

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    That doesn't mean you can reasonably expect GF to do that, unfortunately.

    I will grant that if Forretress is retconned into a cocoon stage, it's certainly not abnormal for the third stage to be significantly more offensively inclined.
  16. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Everyday you learn something not on Wikipedia.

    How about a male/female split into 2 different evolutions??? (kinda like Gallade) xD
  17. RBG

    RBG But I keep cruising, can't stop, won't stop grooving.
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    Burmy/Wormadam/Mothim?
  18. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    ^Yeah, just with Forretress instead-- but same bagworm concept.
  19. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    I don't see it as unviable based on the premise of various pokemon becoming "too good". GF hasn't hesitated to go a little too far with non legendary pokemon (Speed boost Blaziken, Sand rush Excadrill with 135 base attack, SS Kingdra with that dual stab). What makes you think they will hesitate to buff legendary pokemon such as Landorus in your example. Regardless Smogon has a ban list for this.

    Further support to dual abilities is the fact that even starters, who have traditionally had the same three generic abilties got new abilities with the introduction of the dream world. As such I wouldn't be surprised if GF set up dual abilities such that one ability would be inherant regardless of where you caught your pokemon (ie Gengar will always have levitate and Sceptile will always have overgrow) but the other ability may vary depending on how your pokemon was obtained.


    What could be some non-legendary pokemon that would probably be pushed "over the edge" with dual abilities?

    -Moldbreaker + Sand Rush Excadrill (expecting a weather nerf, already "uber")
    -Toxic Heal + Technician Breloom (low BST and each gen brings more pokemon that can deal with spore)
    -Intimidate + Moxie Gyarados (already made redundant with rotom-w, ferrothorn, etc)
    -Intimidate + Moxie Salamence (He isn't a stranger to being classified "uber")


    Some pokemon, such as Salamence can be worked around by making its inherant ability unique to the other two (and intuitively, "useless", for balance purposes) such that Salamence can still only have one or the other.

    This concept of dual abilities doesn't necessarily mean all pokemon will have dual abilities, in much the same way not all pokemon had dream world abilities.

    Here are some OU relevant pokemon that uniquely have levitate and as such, its hard to use another ability on them without taking away from their flavour with the current mono-ability system:

    OU
    -Latias
    -Latios
    -Gengar
    -Hydreigon

    Other
    -Flygon
    -Claydol
    -Weezing

    edit: perhaps pokemon could have a "trait" and an "ability". It'd be trait that isn't unique (ie levitate on all gengar, swarm on all heracross)
  20. Satisfaction

    Satisfaction

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    All I interpret a forretress evolution to do is inspire eviolite forretress, unlike skarmory, forretress can't be killed by magnezones thunderbolt and with an eviolite and investment cant be killed by hidden power fire, (especially true factoring how common rain is in the current meta) and can simply volt switch out of magnezone while walling everything else half to death, and setting up full layers of spikes, toxic spikes maybe even sr if you want, its hp is about average meaning with wish support the thing would be nearly impossible to kill, Forretress could probably have a situation like luvdisc where we know that the new pokemon is its evolution but it doesnt get classified as one, otherwise forretress is too bulky to have an evolution
  21. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Here is what I want for Generation 6 (it is quite long, so you may disregard is completely):

    After having read this, this and this thread, it has come to my attention that the Smogon Community strongly believes in the importance of having an initial banlist for the start of every generation's OU metagame. I am personally opposed to this idea, as I believe that, in the spirit of Smogon's suspect testing process, the OU metagame should be defined as "the balanced metagame from which the least number of Pokémon possible is banned." As a result, I have decided to make this post with the nearing dawn of Generation VI in mind, in the hope of preventing Smogon from making the same mistake that it did at the beginning of Generation V.

    There is no such thing as a Pokémon that deserves to be banned from the OU metagame without going through any suspect testing process. While it is easy to see that Pokémon like Arceus, Kyogre and Groudon would be broken if they were each by themselves to be moved directly to the current OU metagame, who exactly is it to say that the current OU metagame is what the OU metagame really should look like? Saying that, for example, "Dialga would completely break the current OU metagame" and that "the current OU metagame cannot handle Palkia" would be obvious, yet equally pointless, because Pokémon like support Arceus, Lugia and Ho-Oh do not exist in the current OU metagame to check them. Who exactly is it to say that the OU metagame must necessarily be the one in which Pokémon like Tornadus-T, Terrakion, Deoxys-D and Politoed are the most viable? Why would there be something inherently wrong with such Pokémon being moved down to UU or BL, while the OU metagame's top threats consist of Pokémon like Kyogre, Groudon and Lugia?

    To further help the readers to understand my proposal, I believe that, as already mentioned, the Generation V OU metagame at the very start should have had absolutely zero Pokémon banned from them. In other words, there should not have been any difference between the initial Generation V OU metagame, and the Übers metagame. After a period of playing and testing in that OU metagame, which looks exactly like the Übers metagame, people should then suspect test any Pokémon found to overcentralize the OU metagame, which quite obviously is going to inevitably be Arceus. If that Pokémon being suspect tested gets voted to be banned to Übers, then there may be a distinction between the OU metagame (in which Arceus in this case is banned) and the Übers metagame (in which Arceus in this case is not banned). Suspecting testing then continues, and if the new OU metagame without Arceus is still found to be overcentralized, by Pokémon such as Kyogre or Groudon, then they can be suspect tested and/or banned as well. The process of suspect testing continues until the very first instant in which the metagame is found to be completely balanced; in other words, the first instant in which the metagame is not centralized around any particular Pokémon.
    As someone who is very experienced in the Übers metagame, I believe that that metagame could have very easily become a completely balanced one after only Arceus is banned from it. If not, then after banning Kyogre, Groudon, and possibly Lugia as well, I cannot fathom how any overcentralization could possibly occur in that metagame at that point. In other words, had there not been an initial banlist at the start of the Generation V OU metagame, then by the end of this metagame, the list of Pokémon banished to the Übers tier could very well have consisted of no more than the following:

    Arceus
    Kyogre
    Groudon
    Lugia

    Of course, I am not saying that I am definitely correct in this prediction, as theorymonning can only get one so far. Maybe more Pokémon may need to be banned aside from the four mentioned above, in order to create a balanced metagame. In fact, maybe if there wasn't an initial banlist, then at the very end of all the suspect testing, the list of Pokémon in Übers may even be exactly the same as the one which Smogon has now. We never know, but I strongly believe that it is extremely unfair and against the spirit of suspect testing to ban any Pokémon from OU without at least giving them a chance. Because with the way Smogon's tiers are right now, the line between an "Über-level" Pokémon and an "OU-level Pokémon" is drawn between Thundurus-I/Manaphy (probably the worst "Über-level Pokémon") and Tornadus-T/Terrakion/Deoxys-D/Politoed (which seem to be considered to be the best "OU-level Pokémon"), which is completely and utterly arbitrary. Rather than drawing the line between Übers and OU at this point, I believe that it is much, much more reasonable to draw it between the Pokémon that cannot ever possibly be balanced in any possible metagame, and the Pokémon that can actually be balanced in a possible metagame.

    Take a look at Pokémon like Blaziken, Excadrill, Thundurus-I and Genesect. Why did we ban them from OU? Because their OU metagame, in which Pokémon such as Dialga, Palkia, Ho-Oh, Kyurem-W, Giratina, Mewtwo and Darkrai are banned, could not handle such Pokémon. Blaziken, Excadrill, Thundurus-I and Genesect were found to be way too powerful compared to every other Pokémon in the OU metagame, thus overcentralizing it, and therefore banned. But why are such Pokémon not found to to be overcentralizing in the Übers metagame? Because their powers are not anything special compared to most Pokémon in that metagame. So even though Blaziken, Excadrill, Thundurus-I and Genesect proved to be too powerful for the current OU metagame, if hypothetically Smogon did not start Generation V with an initial banlist at all, it may never have been necessary to even suspect test any of the four aforementioned Pokémon in OU. In fact, even the earliest of suspect tests such as Swift Swim + Drizzle would more than likely not have been necessary, as such things are far more manageable in an OU metagame containing more powerful Pokémon like those found in the current Übers tier.

    Of course, allowing so many cover-legendary Pokémon in OU would change the OU metagame drastically compared to the way it currently is. For example, with Pokémon like Dialga, Palkia and Ho-Oh running around, Pokémon like Dragonite, Tornadus-T, Landorus, Rotom-W, Volcarona, Salamence and Haxorus would most likely not see enough usage to even be OU. But that is fine. Why does it seem that there is an unspoken perceived necessity, or at least, an inclination to maintain the status quo and make sure that such Pokémon remain in OU, as if there is anything inherently wrong with them not being in OU? Is it just because most people have come to accept them as being among the "iconic" OU Pokémon? If so, then this is hardly a worthy justification in the face of the need to stay within the spirit of suspect testing. The same applies to what I believe to be the unspoken tendency to relegate cover legendary Pokémon to the Übers tier. Of course, such an inclination has already been gone against with the introduction of Kyurem-B to the OU metagame, so I see no reason why anyone would need to further have their decisions regarding suspect testing and initial banlists influenced by this.

    Finally, I am aware that some people may attempt to refute everything I have written in this post by pointing out that even in the event that a metagame could be balanced while still containing most of the cover legendary Pokémon, then that balance would merely be a result of "broken Pokémon checking broken Pokémon," something that is undesirable. But to such people, I must say that this argument is invalid. Why are all OU and BL Pokémon banned from UU? Is it not because we can sustain the UU metagame? Since that is the case, why not move all OU and BL Pokémon to Übers then, and make UU the new OU metagame, since the balance that is achieved in the OU metagame is also a result of "broken Pokémon checking broken" from the perspective of the UU metagame? And why are all UU Pokémon banned from even lower tiers? Isn't it because UU Pokémon would be broken in such tiers? Why not move all UU Pokémon to Übers as well, since the UU metagame's balance is achieved through "broken Pokémon checking broken Pokémon" from the perspective of the lowest tiers? Depending on where one draws the line between "broken" and "not broken," absolutely any and every metagame could be seen as one in which balance is achieved only because "broken Pokémon check broken Pokémon," so it is not an argument to refute the idea that there should not be an initial banlist.

    I hope that by making this post, I am able to bring to light why it is a bad idea to begin any generation's OU metagame with an initial banlist, and therefore prevent such from occurring again in the approaching Generation VI OU metagame.

    I know that it is a bit early to be discussing about banlists. I just want to know what others think of this proposal.
  22. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    252SpAtk Magnezone (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Fire) vs 252HP/252SpDef +1 Sturdy Forretress (+SpDef): 63% - 74% (224 - 264 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    Forretress suddenly doesn't care about Magnezone? Not exactly. (+1 SpDef to simulate Eviolite)
  23. HolyAvatar

    HolyAvatar

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    What about triple typing Pokemon?
    The big legendaries would fire/water/grass or dragon/steel/psychic. Could be lots of fun!

    That would open up so many possibilities.
    Something like flying/bug/ice (or fire) would die instantly to SR!
    Levitating Dragon/steel/ghost: shitload of resists and 2 immunities and no weakness mighty spinblocker.
  24. Thirteen Rabbits

    Thirteen Rabbits

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    I agree completely. Well said!
  25. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    @ Anikrahman1995

    Very well said! I think the OU banlist is getting a bit large. and the metagame would improve if each poke were given a chance in the OU environment (pokes like Exca could possibly come back).
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