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Regenerator Ho-Oh and Multiscale Lugia

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by MikeDecIsHere, Jun 26, 2012.

  1. MikeDecIsHere

    MikeDecIsHere Congregation of the Classiest
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    http://serebii.net/dreamradar/genivpokemon.shtml

    For those who have not seen, it was revealed that Ho-Oh and Lugia were released in the Dream Radar with their Dream World abilities. With the coming of the move tutors and all of the radical changes that have been occuring in the lower tiers, this release by far one of the greatest impact on the Ubers Metagame (aside from Back/White Kyurem).

    This thread is meant to be for discussion on how these two Pokemon will impact the metagame.

    [​IMG]

    Ho-Oh: With no doubt, Regenerator is fantastic on a Pokemon with x4 weakness to Stealth Rock. Regenerator allows Ho-Oh to switch into SR three times, which makes Ho-Oh much more threatening. Coupled with its already great defensive stats and access to Roost, and Ho-Oh is going to be much more difficult to take down.

    [​IMG]

    Lugia: Multiscale on already one of the best defensive walls in the game makes Lugia one of the hardest Pokemon to take down. In DW Ubers, Sub-Toxic Lugia is one of the biggest defensive threats in the metagame, as its Substitutes are hard to break unless you have a super effective move. Multiscale Lugia will probably become the core of most Uber Stall teams in the near future, or at least until the hype of it dies down.

    So yeah, discuss!
  2. polop

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    Ok Lugia has WAY too much hype. Multiscale Lugia is an incredible wall, don't get me wrong, but it has a REALLY hard time hurting anything. Its loss of pressure (which was a cool ability also) is annoying since you have to waste quite a few Roosts to PP stall stuff like Hydro Pump, Stone Edge, and all those other moves. Lugia's still as reliant as ever on hazards and for the opponent's phazer to die, so IMO its still in the same old boat it was in earlier.

    NO DW LUGIA SHOULDN'T BE TRYING TO BREAK ITS OWN MULTI-Scale!. If anything it should be one of those classic Reflect or even Light Screen (since it can actually try to beat Ogre now) / Roost / Whirlwind / filler sets. Substitute DOES protect it from status, but it has to roost the next turn in order for it to maintain multi-scale. We could even try Trickroom's old Rest talk set since it can phaze quickly but idk.

    Ho-oh on the other hand is receiving all the hype it needs, since it can now assuage its stealth rock weakness. I think it still would appreciate spin / Magic bounce support since that really would popularize LO sets who boasts the ability to 3HKO Defensive Gira-a! Anyways, I think these two mons will definetly increase sandstorm's usage, since ttar can summon sand which can potentially remove Multi-scale, and ttar / hippo are great checks to Ho-oh anyway. Both can also summon SR.

    EDIT: Also maybe moar Kyurem form popularization?
  3. Count Serperior

    Count Serperior

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    Amazing news.
    Pressure was pretty good in itself for draining enemy Stone-Edges, but these new abilities breathe new life into Ho-oh and Lugia.

    But is it even possible to SR these two Pokemon? (or any Pokemon from the Dream Radar)

    The answer to that question does not affect simulators obviously, but it does affect wi-fi battles.
  4. Gothic Togekiss

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    Serebii saids Pokemon transferred from Dream Radar automatically go into your box/storage system. There may be a way to RNG abuse them in that kind of situation, but I somewhat doubt it.

    Edit: Actually there is a way to RNG able Dream Radar Pokemon, though it's somewhat difficulty to do.
  5. WildShot

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    Is there proof of this difficult way?

    These guys, if RNGable, are going to have fun trashing Ubers.

    Hoh-oh with Regenerator can switch out whenever Life Orb and Brave Bird are beginning to wear it down.

    Lugia with Multiscale can set up Reflect or Light Screen then Sub-Roost while putting the Toxic hurt on the non-Steel or Poison types.


    I love these guys. =D
  6. bluemon

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    The great thing is that roost aid a tutor move now so no move illegalitites
  7. Bossness

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    One of the QC members need to update this quickly. Ho-Oh kos Kyogre with Life Orb Brave Bird after Stealth Rock 100% of the time and can then switch out to and still be in good shape. The only disadvantage is that it can no longer reliably stall out stone edge - it has to hope for a miss once in 5 turns.
  8. Furai

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    I wouldn't used Multiscale Lugia, if to be honest. Its weakness to Stealth Rock really makes it so hard to pull. Not only that that thing is super common, it's extremely hard to get out due to the bulky spinblockers our tier has. Pressure is actually pretty useful for Lugia, as most use Substitute, and even the ones that don't enjoy the double PP reduce.

    Ho-oh is another deal though. Regenerator means that it can no longer be beaten by Stealth Rock shuffling (and I say that from experience from last RW). Also, with Substitute, Regenerator is like a perfect match.

    As for Recover vs. Roost: I would use Recover on Ho-oh, and Roost on Lugia. Why? Firstly, Ho-oh is Ground-weak, and I don't want to be caught by random Earthquakes. Secondly, Ho-oh can tank Thunders relatively easily. Thirdly, Lugia actually appreciates losing its Flying-type, because that way it can stall Zekrom out. Ho-oh needs Earthquake to do so, and that usually goes over Substitute, and I don't really like Roost + 3 attacks, as solid as it may be.
  9. ZetoTarken

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    But most EQ users are also Stone Edge users making Roosting into Earthquake a silly fear to have(Seriously random Giratina-O sets are basically the only thing that runs one without the other). Meanwhile, you can realistically roost through a Dialga's Thunder and not have to take 48.7% - 57.4% from it. If Ho-oh is stuck in the rain it is not tanking Thunders 'relatively easily' unless it outspeeds and has roost to halve that damage.
  10. Gothic Togekiss

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    Was in a discussion with Mat on IRC about it. The seed for the Pokemon is generated when you say "yes" after choosing 3DS link. After that he mention that all the Pokemon you caught within Dream Radar so far will be dumped into your box at once.

    While Multiscale is impressive always believed that Ho-Oh got the better ability between the two since healing away SR damage beats halving damage that requires being at full health, especially if the Pokemon in question is SR weak.
  11. WildShot

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    So, not fully impossible, just practically impossible?

    Still, Lugia's quicker than a lot of stuff, and should be able to abuse Roost pretty nicely.
  12. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Yeah, Pressure is generally more useful on Lugia, although if you can keep Stealth Rock off the field, it can afford to run a faster spread on the Great Wall set like 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 Spe Timid to outspeed Terrakion and stuff like that.
  13. Pokémon Trainer R

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    As someone who reached #1 on the DW Ubers ladder on the PokéBattleCenter server, the Pokémon Online server (and also simultaneously had four other names in the top 10 on that ladder, including one name at #2), the Reborn Server and the Pokémon México server, I will say this right now:

    Multiscale Lugia is much better than Pressure Lugia. In fact, with its Dream World Ability, Lugia is the fourth best Pokémon in the entire game, right behind Arceus, Kyogre, and Groudon (by far the deadliest sweeper and most versatile Pokémon ever, and the two dominant weather summoners of the tier, respectively. Lugia is below them only because they are the ones which control the entire metagame). Why? Consider the following Pokémon:

    Extreme Killer Arceus, Calm Mind Arceus, Swords Dance and/or Rock Polish Groudon, Palkia, Calm Mind Mewtwo, Dragon Dance or Swords Dance Rayquaza, Deoxys-A, Shaymin-S, Swords Dance Garchomp, Swords Dance Blaziken, Soul Dew Latias and Latios.

    Those are all immensely powerful offensive threats found in the harsh environment of the Übers metagame, and can easily punch holes in even the most well-built team, if not sweep them entirely. Yet, the simple inclusion of a Multiscale Lugia in a team with Magic Bounce support instantly neutralizes every single one of the aforementioned destructive threats. Suddenly, the incredible threat that is the opponent's Dragon Dance Rayquaza, which would have otherwise completely demolished one's entire team is reduced to nothing more than a paralyzed serpent with all of the stat boosts it attained nullified by a simple Whirlwind, waiting to be easily picked off by a super effective attack later on in the match, while Lugia can easily Recover (well, Roost, now that it has access to that as well, which makes it even better) back to full health, and act as if its little skirmish with Rayquaza never even happened. The opponent's Swords Dance Rock Polish Groudon, which easily sweeps even the most well-prepared teams simply by coming into a Choice Scarf Terrakion locked into Stone Edge? Lugia Toxifies it and Whirlwinds it out without breaking a sweat. And it is also the ultimate and most reliable counter to Extreme Killer Arceus, by far the best set of by far the best Pokémon in the game.

    From my innumerable experiences with building DW Ubers teams, I can safely say that there isn't a single team barring the most hyper-offensive one, in which I have not at least considered the use of a Multiscale Lugia, because it is simply just that good of a wall. It almost completely eliminates the need to utilize clever predictions in order to play around or beat the countless threats in the tier that are otherwise almost uncounterable. While most good Übers teams can check at least most of the threats I mentioned above, can anyone honestly say that they can use a single Pokémon (well, two with Espeon/Xatu to keep Stealth Rock off the field) to not only check, but flat out counter each and every one of those threats? I don't think so.

    I have rather limited experience with Wifi Ubers compared to DW Ubers, but from what I have read in this thread, it appears that one of Lugia's primary purposes in Wifi Ubers is to waste the opponent's Pokémon's PPs with Pressure, in conjunction with Roost and moves like Light Screen and Reflect. Well, if that's the case, then you can completely forget about that in DW Ubers, because it's no longer necessary. Now the best use of Lugia is not to stall out PPs, but to not only counter the vast majority of the offensive threats that make up the metagame, but also crippling them with either paralysis or Toxic, depending on their Pokémon. Most fast and/or frail Pokémon are best off paralyzed and then blown away with Whirlwind, so that another Pokémon can outrun them and effortlessly finish them off later on in the match (and coincidentally, Ho-Oh is an excellent Pokémon for that purpose). For example, a paralyzed Mewtwo can be easily outrun and destroyed by a Ho-Oh's Life Orb Sun-boosted Sacred Fire, while a paralyzed Rayquaza can be outrun and crushed by just about any dragon. However, Extreme Killer Arceus is much better off poisoned, as not only does its main and strongest attack bypass the Speed drop from paralysis, but it is also so bulky that almost no attacks exist which can take it out in one hit anyway. A poisoned Extreme Killer Arceus is also easily stalled by Multiscale Lugia until it succumbs to the poison. And Pokémon like Groudon and Garchomp, that are immune to Thunder Wave, should also obviously be Toxic stalled.

    Another thing I would like to mention is that Lugia is a Pokémon upon which very little, if any Speed EVs are often invested, because people prefer to enhance its bulk instead. But with Multiscale Lugia, the priorities have shifted. Now, Speed is very important in order to allow Lugia to regain its Multiscale with Roost before the opponent's Pokémon attacks it, and in very desperate situations, also to allow Lugia to outrun and paralyze certain threats before it faints. Lugia's bulk, on the other hand, has suddenly become less important, as a Multiscale Lugia at full health will always be bulkier than any Pressure Lugia anyway, regardless of how much it invests into Defense or Special Defense. I personally think that the ideal amount of Speed to invest into Lugia is 204, as that allows it to outrun Jolly Groudon, so that it can Roost before it uses Stone Edge, and this is especially important because Groudon is immune to Thunder Wave (if Groudon uses Rock Polish, just Whirlwind it away). And because Lugia is meant to be a mixed wall, I think the ideal set for Multiscale Lugia is this:

    [​IMG]

    Surya (Lugia) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 204 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Roost
    - Thunder Wave
    - Toxic
    - Whirlwind

    Now, onto Regenerator Ho-Oh. Because its use is almost completely exclusive to a single weather, it is nowhere near as metagame-defining as Multiscale Lugia. Because while Lugia is a wall that completely counters the vast majority of Pokémon, which also works in any weather (although personally, I think Sun is also the most favorable weather for Lugia, largely due to Thunder only having 50% accuracy), Ho-Oh is nothing more than just an insanely good Pokémon within one specific weather. However, it is still nonetheless one of the best Pokémon in the game after Arceus, Kyogre, Groudon and Lugia. Here, I should just copy and paste from an RMT I once wrote, describing my Ho-Oh set in that team, in order to demonstrate just how ridiculously effective Regenerator Ho-Oh can be. Keep in mind that it can do everything I am about to describe using only one moveset. And this is hardly the only moveset Ho-Oh can run, as it very commonly uses the Substitute set (which can manage an entirely different set of feats), and can also use defensive sets with moves like Thunder Wave, Whirlwind, and things like that.

    Think about it: Ho-Oh is immune to Will-O-Wisp and takes less than 33% from Giratina's Dragon Tail. Now it can completely and utterly stonewall the most common Giratina set. When Ho-Oh hits a Kyogre on the switch with a Life Orb-boosted Brave Bird, it typically loses a large chunk of its own health from the recoil. After that, you can now just switch to Palkia/Gastrodon/Arceus-Grass and that recoil damage is almost completely negated. With a combination of Life Orb and Brave Bird, Ho-Oh, especially Flame Charge variants, often reduces itself to dangerously low health, to the point where it would easily faint from a Giratina-O's Shadow Sneak, or even just another round of Life Orb damage. If the opponent has out a Pokémon against which Ho-Oh cannot just safely Recover/Roost, then what? Normally, Ho-Oh would just accept its demise by firing off one last Sacred Fire or Brave Bird before going down, as it usually isn't worth switching out and keeping a relatively slow Pokémon with low health around. But with Regenerator? Just switch out. Next time Ho-Oh comes in, it's in better shape and may be able to safely Recover/Roost. If it can't, just switch out again, and now Ho-Oh has just went from being on the verge of fainting to having about 70% health now.

    Also, anyone who is intending to use Regenerator as a means of somewhat negating the damage that Ho-Oh takes from Stealth Rock (so that it loses 17% health as opposed to 50% every time it comes in and leaves) is doing it wrong. Instead of doing that, why not just put an Espeon/Xatu on the team, so that instead of losing 17% health every time Ho-Oh comes in and leaves, it regains 33% health? To those who may be thinking that it is detrimental to "waste" a spot on one's team with a Magic Bounce Pokémon, rest assured that it is not. In fact, I'd say that in general, as long as one is not running an insanely hyper-offensive team of course, an Übers team containing five Pokémon + an Espeon/Xatu is more effective than a team containing six powerful Pokémon, and there are many reasons why that is the case.

    1. Magic Bounce Pokémon completely wall Lugia. This is exponentially more important than before now that Multiscale Lugia is released. I'm sure many people here have experienced having their team destroyed by one of those Toxic-stalling Substitute Lugia, and I'm sure that in that situation, many of such people would probably at some point have wished that their team contained an Espeon or a Xatu.
    2. The inclusion of an Espeon or a Xatu in one's team allows one to completely counter the vast majority of offensive threats with Multiscale Lugia, as I have explained before.
    3. Ho-Oh is not the only Pokémon that dislikes being damaged by Stealth Rock. The aforementioned Multiscale Lugia, Reshiram, the two new Kyurem Formes, and Rayquaza all despise it. Actually, technically, every single Pokémon barring those with Magic Guard do. Regardless of how resilient to Steath Rock and other entry hazards one's team may be, being able to keep one's own field hazard-free is a massive advantage for any team, and certainly worthy of dedicating one team spot for an Espeon/Xatu.
    4. Toxic Spikes put a limit on the life of one's Kyogre or Groudon, putting one at an immediate disadvantage in the weather war, the victory of which is extremely important to many teams.
    5. Toxic Spikes render most Calm Mind Arceus almost completely unusable unless they have Refresh.
    6. Ferrothorn Spikes stacking is one of the deadliest strategies in Übers due to this Pokémon's great bulk and myriad of resistances, which gives it ample time to eventually stack three layers of Spikes, at which point it becomes exceedingly difficult for the opponent to win especially if the Ferrothorn trainer has a bulky pseudo-hazer like Giratina or Lugia (it wasn't my intention to mention this Pokémon again...), as add in Stealth Rock, and most Pokémon are taking 30+% damage just by switching in. This is especially devastating against rain teams as they often struggle to defeat Ferrothorn quickly, but all of this can be easily solved by just sacrificing one team spot for Magic Bounce support.
    7. Espeon with Yawn and Xatu with Haze are both perfect counters to Smeargle's Shell Smash + Baton Pass strategy.
    8. Having a Pokémon completely immune to status effects in one's team is a huge asset.
    9. Magic Bounce stops the Copycat Riolu strategy.

    In summary:

    • Lugia just went from whatever it was before to the best Pokémon in the game after those that control the metagame itself (Arceus and the two dominant weather summoners). Slap one on any team that has an Espeon or Xatu and most of the threats in the metagame become completely non-threats.
    • Ho-Oh went from whatever it was before, to one of the best Pokémon in the game after Lugia. I'd say its competitors for that are Dialga, Palkia, Mewtwo and Darkrai, which actually says a lot about Ho-Oh's usefulness considering those other Pokémon are largely indifferent to the weather, whereas Ho-Oh's usefulness is almost completely exclusive to Sun teams, meaning Ho-Oh is actually unviable for more than half of the teams in the metagame. In other words, it is such a powerful Pokémon in the Sun, that I'd say there is very little reason not to use it in any team that contains Groudon (unless it also has Kyogre).
  14. gookie

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    yeah, good post. a lot of what is going on here is just bandwagoning back and forth, no one wants to be a victim of 'hype' and we forget that fucking multiscale and regenerator got released on two amazing pokemon with reliable recovery.
  15. locoghoul

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    Xatu or Espeon can't deal with Ttar or LO Dialga though. Even Shadow Ball Deo-S does a good job setting up SR. It's not so simple to keep the rocks out
  16. Donkey

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    To add on to that, with team preview lead Dialgas and Groudons will be respectively Draco Meteoring and EQing first turn in anticipation of Espeon.
  17. Bossness

    Bossness

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    This is true. The reason it works in DW Uber in the Pokemon Online server is due to lack of team preview.
  18. barry4ever

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    I really want trickroom to pop in here and make a gigantic post about the greatness of Multiscale Lugia. Lets face it, played well, Multiscale Lugia is one of the most amazing mons out there. Yeah, fuck Stealth Rock, if you're running it on a dedicated Stall Team, chances are you are going to spin that SR away.

    Yes, Xatu requires a decent bit of prediction to work. Doesnt make it a bad Pokemon. I've seen Hugen play Xatu incredibly well, keeping it alive throughout the whole match. Just because Xatu requires a decent amount of prediction doesnt make it useless. I myself have used it and it works spectacularly provided you predict right.

    Seriously, you guys are hyping Stealth Rock way too much. Firstly, Lugia has a move called Roost to restore Multiscale. Secondly, a certain mon called Excadrill got its Mold Breaker ability released to nail Giratina-O with Earthquake. I'm not getting into specifics with what can wall with Multiscale because that list doesnt end.

    Now onto Ho-Oh. Regenerator is the best thing which could happen to Ho-Oh. Now it just dgaf about Stealth Rock, giving Sun teams a major boost. I predict most CM Arceus formes to drop in usage as Ho-Oh becomes popular. And Ho-Oh should still run Roost. Taking 50% from Thunder with a potential chance of paralysis is not taking it well. Also Groudon would be mad to EQ a Ho-Oh unless its like Jolly 192 Spe or something really fast.
  19. Bossness

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    I never said Xatu was useless. It has proven to be useful when I used the Uber CCAT Team. I could keep Stealth Rock off the field 90% of the time. That 10% is when someone lead with Choice Specs Dialga or Choice Band Tyranitar or Spike/Stealth Rock Deoxys-A.
    My 100th post.yay. If I see Dialga or Tyranitar in team Preview, I just lead with Xatu and set up a screen before they attack. What I meant earlier is that it is more effective in DW than in Wifi.
  20. malomyotismon

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    given lugias great speed, insane bulk, access to roost a clam mind lugia would be pretty beastly, lugia will have no trouble getting in a few calm minds with it's new bulkand start to become a real offensive threat.
  21. Bossness

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    This Calm Mind Lugia is countered by Lugia itself. With Multiscale lugia released, there will be a decline in setup sweepers unless they are able to handle Lugia such as Hone Claws Zekrom.
  22. malomyotismon

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    true that is the irony to it
  23. shrang

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    If Stealth Rock is off the field, Regenerator Ho-oh is probably one of the best initial switch-ins to Kyurem-W to scout its set, in my opinion. You can switch in and take a Draco Meteor or Ice Beam, gauge the damage and then act accordingly. The good thing about Ho-oh is that if the damage is too much, just switch back out for Regenerator to kick in and keep yourself relatively healthy.
  24. Furai

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    I second shrang. Ho-oh is also now a lot harder to defeat, as Stealth Rock Shuffling is no longer effective due to Regenerator, which is fantastic and horrible at the same time...
  25. Bruno Magno

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    Lugia looks very weak to SubDarkrai, that can use with Dark Void, break Multiscale through Bad Dreams and put the hurt with a STAB Dark Pulse, and Lugia can't do much in return, except Whirlwind it away. Anyway, it will be the hardest defensive threat to counter for any team. Do you have any calcs on what SpecsOgre does? I'm pretty sure a Specs + STAB + Rain + 150BP does 70% or something. I'm sure Cloyster will raise so much in usage, with ShellSmash boosting the Speed to sky-high levels (more than most common poke anyway) and counter Lugia and other dragons with Icicle Spear. Maybe Stealth Rock will increase even more on usage?

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