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Discussion in 'Ubers' started by MikeDecIsHere, Jun 26, 2012.
438 SpA Specs Rain Water Spout vs. 252/0 Neutral Multiscale Lugia: (55.29% - 65.14%)
I sadly don't have the time to make a gigantic post. Multiscale Lugia is actually a huge advantage when I used it way back in the early generation 5 when many people are playing DW Ubers. The only time I missed Pressure, was when I was walling Ho-Oh. Ho-Oh beats Multiscale Lugia (assuming no Toxic) but not Pressure.
Multiscale is easier to abuse than you think, because this is LUGIA. If Dragonite can abuse it so effectively, why not Lugia, who is way bulkier and faster. Lugia also forces many threats giving you chance to Roost back up to 100%.
Specs Water Spout fails to KO Lugia after Kyogre takes Stealth Rock damage. Even if Lugia takes Stealth Rock damage, lets not forget Lugia is naturally faster than Kyogre, so it can Roost/Recover back up to 100% before Kyogre can land a killing blow. Assuming no crits, Kyogre is owned.
Also about the Kyurem-B hype: Lugia beats Kyurem. Ice Beam doesn't not OHKO, neither does Fusion Bolt does not do that much Lugia to be honest. Lugia can just put up a Reflect/Light Screen and react accordingly even with TerraVolt neutralizing Multiscale. Roost cancels out Lugia's weakness to Ice so good luck killing it with non-Scarf Kyurem-B.
Really? Lugia can run Light Screen, Roost, Reflect and Dragon Tail/Whirlwind. Lugia deals damage through entry hazards, and it can just drop Toxic if you have other mons to use it or Toxic Spikes.
Pretty sure you can't have both Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W on the same team, so that's a nonissue.
His point was that you cannot put Lugia on your team to wall one, while still being able to wall the other if another team uses it. Though you would never face both of them on one team, you can't change your Lugia's set after seeing the team preview.
Also, CM Rock Arceus will see a huge boost in usage for countering both these mons.
Dual screen Lugia could actually be fairly effective, considering Lugia's great bulk and speed. Its main use would probably be abusing entry hazards, as once Reflect and/or Light Screen are up, Lugia is incredibly difficult to damage, especially with Multiscale and the fact that most pokemon rely on electric or ice type moves to damage it, which only do half as much when Lugia uses Roost. Unfortunately, it would only have one spare moveslot, which would limit its usefulness.
Lugia @ Leftovers / Light Clay
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 248 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -Sp.A)
- Light Screen
Because of Lugia's high speed (248 Speed EVs with neutral nature allows it to outspeed max speed base 95s), it would be able to set up Reflect or Light Screen before most of its opponents attack. This means it would take 1/4 damage from all attacks that come from slower pokemon if it is at full health and its opponents do not have Mold Breaker, Turboblaze etc. (where it would still only take half damage) It could then proceed to either phase its opponents with Whirlwind or, once screens are set up, switch out to let another pokemon set up to sweep, such as ExtremeKiller Arceus. It would probably be best to use Leftovers instead of Light Clay, as three turns (two if you set up both screens) is plenty for most Pokemon to set up, and Leftovers would give Lugia enough bulk to set screens up more often anyway.
The only pokemon it would have to watch out for would be Scarf Zekrom and Scarf Kyurem-W, who could attack it before it could set up screens and bypass Multiscale to deal 82.2% - 97.1% and 62.5% - 74% with Bolt Strike and Ice Beam respectively (Though Kyurem-W's Ice beam would only have a 70% chance of 2KO without Stealth Rock (assuming Lugia used Light Screen on the first turn)).
Mewtwo, Darkrai, Thundurus and pretty much anything with Toxic and/or Taunt are just going to make that dual screen Lugia their bitch.
If you need a dual screener in ubers use Latios (who is definitely NOT Taunt bait), Espeon/Xatu (Magic Bounce) or Deoxys-S (faster than everything and has its own Taunt).
A dual screener Lugia is about as threatening and hard to stop as a Rollout Shuckle.
If you're afraid of taunt users, you can run Dragon Tail instead of Whirlwind, but all variants of Lugia have trouble with taunt. Most Mewtwo sets don't threaten Lugia, and though Stalltwo does, it threatens all other Lugia variants if they don't yet have a substitute. While Darkrai does threaten Lugia, it threatens all pokemon it outspeeds if they have no way of healing sleep, so I do not see how it's relevant. Thundurus is just as much a problem to other Lugia variants as it is to this one, being able to easily 2KO them.
Also, if a Pokemon that threatens Lugia switches in, you can always switch out and let other Pokemon on your team take advantage of the screens.
While there may be other Pokemon that are better at setting up dual screens, I was merely mentioning that dual screen Lugia would not be complete set up fodder in Ubers and could be quite useful.
Been experimenting with Regenerator Houou...I don't think it's that great really. It can be a cool special tank, but SR herps on it too hard.
This post disregards the fact that a faster pokemon with Toxic or a Sleep move pretty much neuters Lugia. I'd hardly call it the best or most metagame-defining (an annoying phrase which has nothing to do with how good a mon actually is) pokemon in ubers.
Don't get me started on Magic Bounce. Its very all or nothing, and if your opponent is attempting to SR/status you with an offensive mon that can keep pressure on Espeon (lol xatu in ubers) such as Groudon they WILL get those rocks up/status out. Those pokemon have no defensive presence and almost anything that possesses a move that they would serve to reflect back can threaten them with a KO. Sure they might wind up with rocks on THEIR side of the field if you switch smartly, but the minute that Groudon starts tossing attacks at Espeon you're gonna either switch or die and then what?
That last bit about Ho-oh being a completely "unviable pokemon in half the teams of the metagame" is like saying its only viable move is Sacred Fire and all of its counters are Water types (when it in fact wipes the floor with most of them with Brave Bird).
using magic bounce is difficult, but if you maintain offensive pressure and have the right pokemon (things that can wreck hazard setters) then smart play can guarantee no hazards on your field.
switching in a magic bounce pokemon into a hazard setter guarantees a single condition, and that is no entry hazards on your side of the field - this is only worth it if you can either survive comfortably, or the hazard setter won't have an opportunity to come back in later. to guarantee the latter condition either the rest of the team can threaten it or it will be too crippled by residual / hazard damage to come in again. so whilst it's not unfeasible i will admit that it isn't easy or conventional.
i haven't used lugia that much but i've been using regenerator ho-oh. ho-oh as a pokemon becomes a lot more flexible, you can switch it into half the attacks thrown around in ubers, even specs draco meteors and then just switch out if a 2hko looks like it's going to happen. without SR on your side ho-oh actually becomes an effective pivot, you switch it in to scout sets / attacks and then you can switch it out immediately. not to mention that ho-oh destroys giratina-a now, as you can switch in indefinitely and just PP stall it.
i've had great success with subroost and flame charge, both take advantage of idiots switching around endlessly trying to get a good resist in. just use this with like mold breaker exca, or volt switch forry. even with SR down this thing is still good as long as you remember to keep it in the 50% ish range when you're switching out.
No one said that Espeon/Xatu could reflect entry hazards and status-inducing moves indefinitely throughout the match, unless the opponent is using such moves on a defensive Pokémon like Forretress, Chansey or Deoxys-D, as Espeon/Xatu can indeed wall them for a long time with Morning Sun or Roost (physically defensive Xatu can even wall Ferrothorn and defensive Groudon). But the point is, Espeon/Xatu can prevent the opponent's Pokémon from setting up a layer of entry hazards at the first opportunity they attempt to use to do so, and by placing a sufficient amount of pressure on the opponent, it isn't difficult to not give the opponent the chance to use Stealth Rock/Spikes/Toxic Spikes a second time in the match, as by that point it's likely that the opponent's entry hazard user is sufficiently weakened to the point where they can be easily finished off before they can use them. For example, if the opponent's Stealth Rock user is Dialga, Espeon/Xatu can be used to reflect Stealth Rock the first time they attempt such a move. Then the battle goes on. With some intelligent prediction, you could later weaken their Dialga on the switch with a Palkia's Spacial Rend, for example. Then you can switch to Espeon to reflect Stealth Rock a second time, or if they predict correctly, you sacrifice your Espeon to Dialga's Draco Meteor. At this point, since the opponent's Dialga had been weakened by Palkia's Spacial Rend before, it is now within range to be KO'd by many attacks, such as Mewtwo's Aura Sphere or Ho-Oh's Sun-boosted Sacred Fire.
Basically, Espeon/Xatu's lack of defensive presence and inability to take hits very well doesn't matter, as the point is not to wall the opponent's entry hazard user indefinitely. It's to simply stop the opponent's entry hazard user from setting up entry hazards until that Pokémon is weakened enough to be easily finished off before it gets the chance to use Stealth Rock/Spikes/Toxic Spikes again. After that, Espeon/Xatu can usually be used as death fodder (unless there is another Pokémon they need to wall, like the opponent's Toxic Multiscale Lugia).
And I don't see the connection between saying Ho-Oh being unviable outside of Sun teams, and saying that its only move is Sacred Fire. OK, maybe it could be useful in sand or hail teams at times, but those two weathers make up the minority of the tier, since Übers is dominated by the rain and the Sun. And in a rain team (and such teams make up about half of the tier), I honestly see very little reason to use Ho-Oh (especially when Multiscale Lugia is generally far superior if you're looking for a wall), as not only is it weak to both Water-type moves and the 100% accurate Thunders that can be easily tossed around in that weather, but pretty much its only usable attack in that weather is a recoil move, and Sacred Fire, its best and strongest move in the Sun (not just because it's stronger than Brave Bird and has a 50% burn chance, but just because of the absence of that debilitating recoil. There is a reason why in the Sun, I prefer to have my Ho-Oh beat Latios one-on-one with Flame Charge + Sacred Fire rather than just outright KO'ing the Eon Pokémon with Brave Bird. Because especially with Life Orb, the recoil is just that bad, and could even result in Ho-Oh fainting if Latios hits Ho-Oh with a powerful move like Psyshock or Draco Meteor), becomes essentially nothing more than a less accurate Will-O-Wisp that can do a little damage. That is what I mean when I say that Ho-Oh is generally unviable outside of Sun teams. The same as how Kingdra and Kabutops are generally unviable outside of rain teams, and how Sand Rush Excadrill is generally unviable outside of sand teams.
Also, as I said in my previous post, the best and most metagame-defining Pokémon is Arceus, followed by Kyogre and Groudon. Lugia is nowhere near the level of those three, but I'd say it's certainly better than every other Pokémon in the game besides them, as with Multiscale and Thunder Wave, it outright counters so many Pokémon that it's often hard to find a reason not to put one in a team, unless it's a completely hyper offensive team.
I dont even understand what Sphyxius means by saying that Ho-Oh's only move is Sacred Fire. If you use the Honko Calculator, you will notice that most enemies in ubers are damaged more by Brave Bird than by Sacred Fire. The reason for this is that there are plenty of fire resists but not many Flying resists. Ho-Oh is viable is sandstorm too. Why would you use Ho-Oh in a weatherless team anyway? If you do, then you are doing it wrong.
Lugia is neutered by a faster pokemon with sleep or toxic? How many common toxic users are fast? Darkrai uses Dark Void but Lugia is not meant to handle Darkrai anyway - that is Ho-Oh's job. BTW did you know Lugia's bulk allows it to use a substitute set? The idea is to set up a substitue againt a pokemon that cant do much to Lugia, whirlwind it out and toxic the next pokemon as it tries to break the substitute. BTW with Stealth Rock, Ho-Oh 2HKOs all pokemon in ubers with a moveset of Sacred Fire, Brave Bird and Earthquake - this is of course if Sacred Fire burns the first time.
EDIT: Ninja'd like a boss.
EDIT2: Giratina is beaten by the substitute+roost set. Giratina cannot do anything against Ho-Oh. Should have mentioned that the pokemon that look to counter it directly are 2HKOed. In most of my matches, Stealth Rock is not out early in the game as I lead with Deoxys-S.
Actually, Even with max attack and a Life Orb, Ho-oh fails to 2KO Giratina-A by a long shot. It only manages to deal 35.38 - 41.74% with Brave Bird, which has no chance to 2KO, even with Stealth Rock. Even if you were to use a Choice Band, Brave Bird still has only a 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, which is far from reliable. Ho-oh would also take 59 - 70 damage from recoil each attack (not including life orb damage), and would be easily forced out by Dragon tail, which could be a problem if Stealth Rock is up.
Overall, Ho-oh would take 59 - 70 damage from Brave Bird recoil, 35 from Life Orb and 72 - 85 from Dragon Tail (This is assuming it's running a 252 Atk / 252 Spd set). If it switched into stealth rock, it would have already taken 176 damage. This would leave it at maximum of 11 health and a minimum of -13, which is a 46% chance of KO. Even if Ho-oh survives, it would gain back only 117 health from Regenerator, and unless you manage to spin away Stealth Rock, Ho-oh will faint the next time it switches in. If it is running a max HP set, it will never be KOd by Dragon tail after recoil, but would instead still always faint upon switching in on Stealth Rock.
Thus, not only does Ho-oh not manage to 2KO Giratina-A, it it effectively OHKOd by it if Stealth Rock is up.
Though Ho-oh can beat Giratina-A with Substitute + Roost, it would not be able to also run Brave Bird, Sacred Fire and Earthquake. This would be a completely different Ho-Oh from the one that you claimed could 2KO the entire Tier, and would have different counters such as Arceus-Rock if you don't run Earthquake.
For lugia, Why not run a parashuffle set like dnite?
Para, sub til parahax, roost, phase, repeat
Unless lugia doesn't get twave
which would be dumb
Thunder Wave is part of Lugia's moveset, and I can see the merits of this moveset, though it makes Groudon (through his paralysis immunity, i guess Ground Arceus as well then) a bigger threat than sets with toxic would. Additionally, the problem with Dragon Tail is that I see an increasing amount of players using substitutes, which lets them set up on you.
That being said, I do certainly like the idea of this set, might give it the old college try.
While we are on the subject of T-Wave, I just learned in EMT school that the final sketch of a heartbeat on an EKG is called the T-Wave. Definitely a coincidence, but real cool.
I've actually been trying a ParaShuffler Lugia set with the spread PTR uses on his own Lugia. (I actually just took the set and ended up dropping Toxic for Substitute) It works a lot better with Whirlwind because Dragon Tail doesn't have the STAB and ridiculous attack (respective to the metagame of each) that Dragonite has. Of course, like ShuffleNite, you MUST have hazards otherwise you will just keep on meeting the same Groudon or already Paralyzed Pokemon. I like it, though, and my current Ubers team is based around it. (So far it's been successful, but that's the Ubers ladder...)
Say, is it any good to try using a Timid Lugia for a wall? My friend managed to get is hands on a Timid flawless Multiscale Lugia, and I'm considering whether or not I should make a trade proposition.
You can use it with a fast spread like in DPP, Timid is a good nature on Lugia even in BW, don't worry. Use it with enough in speed to outspeed Garchomp and Palkia, a little more maybe (speed creep etc).
a fast lugia is more valuable when you give it reflect, as that's largely the point of it - to set up reflect before physical attackers can land a hit
I'm going to need somebody to explain to me how MultiScale Lugia is good.
With Stealth Rock so prevalent, Lugia always will have to Roost first turn in order to even get the boost. Plus any attack, Sand, whatever will break it.
I may not understand this fully. All I know though is that I'm going to stick with Pressure, because PP-Stalling is how I always play this guy.
Regenerator Ho-Oh is awesome though! Would have preferred Magic Guard though :p
You should be running support for getting rid of Stealth Rocks anyway if you're running Lugia, no?
Leftovers will stop Sand damage, and taking attacks is what the ability is meant to do anyway!
Did you not read my first post in this thread?
You don't read well do you? I said "That's *like* saying Ho-oh's only usable move is Sacred Fire..." referring to Pokemon Trainer R's post. Also a pokemon with reliable recovery, 154 sp. def, regenerator, and 2 strong STABs one of which caries a 50% burn rate is usable on more teams than just Sun. Sacred Fire is used far more for its burn rate than its power, which is barely more than Flamethrower. Sure in sun it is way better, but I would still use it rain or shine for that awesome burn rate. In any case, its the only move Ho-oh uses that gets any kind of benefit from the sun. Sun is obviously ideal, no one is arguing that, but saying Ho-oh is useless outside of the sun is a big stretch. And yes, I know about Ho-oh's 2HKOing abilities, my entire post was an argument against his TL;DR hype of Lugia and marginalization of Ho-oh.
In my previous post, I already acknowledged that Ho-Oh could at times find a place in a Sandstorm or Hail team, but not only are such teams, especially the latter, already amongst the minority of Über teams as I already mentioned, but Ho-Oh is also, for very good reasons, far from a near-omnipresent Pokémon within teams of such weathers, unlike in Sun teams. But in the rain, what exactly is Ho-Oh? It is a Lugia with a different type combination (which is generally worse, due to the 4x Rock weakness and the Water weakness, which actually matters in the rain despite the 154 Special Defense, and this is very important, as because of this combined with the fact that Ho-Oh does not have Multiscale, it cannot take a hit from Kyogre or Palkia and paralyze it, or pseudo-haze Manaphy away, which are some extremely important things that Lugia can do), a move that has a 47.5% chance of inflicting a burn, the ability to attack with a powerful recoil move, and Regenerator, in exchange for Lugia's ability to outright counter almost the entire Übers metagame. Alright, I won't deny that there may exist some peculiar rain team which would appreciate the things that Ho-Oh brings to the table more than what Lugia can do, but I think it is quite safe and intuitive to say that in general, it is quite difficult, and probably near-impossible to find a rain team which would appreciate the use of a Ho-Oh over the use of a Lugia, because there is a myriad of Pokémon Lugia can counter that Ho-Oh cannot, including Mewtwo, Soul Dew Latios, Palkia in the rain, Manaphy in the rain (well, it can't paralyze it like it can against most other sweepers, but it can still Whirlwind it away nonetheless), Calm Mind Arceus-Rock, Water and Electric (yes, Lugia can counter Calm Mind Arceus-Rock and Electric, as well as Ice, Dark and Ghost, as with Multiscale it is capable of taking less than 50% damage from a +1 super effective Judgment while paralyzing Arceus, before Roosting to full health repeatedly until Arceus is fully paralyzed, and then Arceus can be Whirlwinded away. Or if Arceus uses Substitute to block Thunder Wave, Lugia can just Whirlwind it away anyway. Furthermore, Ho-Oh actually loses the ability to beat most Calm Mind Arceus one-on-one when it is in the rain due to the nerfed Sacred Fire as well as Brave Bird's unreliability due to its recoil, meaning it canot counter them in the rain unless it has Whirlwind), Groudon, and just physical attackers in general, while I cannot think of anything that Ho-Oh counters that Lugia doesn't besides Kyurem-W, Reshiram in the Sun (and we are talking about using Ho-Oh in a rain team anyway, so one could always just shut off the sunlight with Kyogre anyway) and Will-o-Wisp users like Giratina. If anything, rain teams would probably be considering the use of Ho-Oh over Lugia for its ability to defeat Ferrothorn and Arceus-Grass, two Pokémon that rain typically struggle against, quickly and easily, but I don't think it would be worth it the majority of the time. And finally, consider this last point: Imagine that you were building a rain team, and then somehow find that Ho-Oh would actually benefit such a team more than Lugia would. Now, in such a hypothetical situation, what reason have you not to just replace that Kyogre in the team with a Groudon, and put some Sun sweepers over whatever other rain sweepers that you have in the team, just so that the power of your Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire can be increased threefold, so that it can actually wall Water-type moves, and so that it changes from a generally much worse Lugia into one of the deadliest threats in the entire game? Now, don't get me wrong - my point is hardly that there is no reason not to do such (and I know there are many reasons to do so), but I hope that by considering this question, you may realize that in many cases, if one were to want to include a Ho-Oh in their team, then oftentimes one may as well just put a Groudon in it anyway, since there are many huge advantages in doing so, and this effectively turns the team into a Sun team. So it's not just a matter of Ho-Oh being mostly unviable in the rain - there is also the fact that generally, many rain teams which would appreciate the inclusion of a Ho-Oh may as well have Groudon over Kyogre and become a Sun team anyway.
So basically, while I concede that saying Ho-Oh is absolutely unviable in rain, Hail or Sandstorm teams is just a bold generalization (since there are always exceptions), the fact remains that generally, there is very little reason to use Ho-Oh in the rain (the most common weather in Übers), and Ho-Oh is not any more viable than any other random Über Pokémon such as Dialga and Palkia in Hail or Sandstorm teams. In fact, I'd say that they are generally far easier to fit into a non-Sun team due to the former's excellent defensive type combination and ability to use Stealth Rock, the latter's ability to serve as one of the most useful Kyogre counters (and also be a great rain abuser), and the fact that neither of them desperately require Magic Bounce support like Ho-Oh does. When people think of Ho-Oh being one of the best Pokémon in the game, what do they typically think of? They tend to think of the absolutely insane power of its Life Orb and Sun-boosted Sacred Fire, powerful enough to fell even the mighty Mewtwo in a single hit. They think of its ability to sweep entire teams after a single Flame Charge or devastate everything behind a Substitute, thanks to its ability to destroy almost every other Pokémon its tier using Brave Bird and Sacred Fire alone. And they think of its ability to wall a myriad of incredible special sweepers, including Dialga, Palkia, and most Calm Mind Arceus, and use them as complete setup fodder or just annihilate them one-on-one. What do all of these feats that make the Pokémon Ho-Oh as we know it have in common? The answer is that they can all be performed thanks to Groudon's Drought, which can only be observed in a little more than a quarter of all teams according to last month's usage statistics on this site. But in any other weather, Ho-Oh is just another Über, which may be used every now and then, but it's nothing extraordinary. But that is not the case with Lugia. In any team containing Kyogre, which is used in more than 40% of all teams, Lugia is a ridiculous cut above most other Über Pokémon due to reasons that I have already explained multiple times. If the team has Groudon, Lugia is even better. Despite its dislike of risidual damage, it is also an excellent wall in the less common teams with Tyranitar, Hippowdon or Abomasnow as well. And if it works well in Hail or in a Sandstorm, then obviously it works in weatherless teams as well. Every metagame is largely controlled by its dominant weather summoners, and Übers is no exception, meaning that a Pokémon that is absolutely amazing regardless of the weather would obviously be ranked higher than one that is absolutely amazing only in one weather (firing off Brave Birds left and right without the coverage provided by a Sun-boosted Sacred Fire is not that impressive, nor is taking 50+% damage from a Palkia's Surf).
And I can tell you that I am definitely neither overrating Lugia nor underrating Ho-Oh. I have reached #1 on eight different Übers ladders across four different Pokémon Online servers using a team containing both, and also extensively tested both of these Pokémon independently in a number of other teams as well. I know exactly how much Ho-Oh is defined by Drought, and I know exactly how much any team, regardless of its weather, would benefit from Lugia, since I have literally and actively resisted the urge to put Lugia in the vast majority of teams I have built, purely because of my desire to be creative and not use the same Pokémon in every one of my teams.