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Discussion in 'Congregation of the Masses' started by Gabe, Nov 24, 2012.
Just imagine them in their underwear
I haven't read the site you linked yet and am not an expert on addiction, but I'd very likely back you up on your decision anyways from what you've said. While I'm not speaking for all and everyone naturally has differing attitudes on sexuality, some guys seem to try to turn their cheek to the often inexorable two-way relation between emotions/attachment and, basically, getting hot. Porn is fiction and can be filled with innumerable unhealthy ideas when it comes to relationships, and even as a regular observer it can instill a harmful image of human interactions(not to mention body ideals). Just remember it's important to be capable of experiencing attraction without sexualizing others in real situations, and while arousal is natural and great, losing a hold of sexual idolatry isn't.
You'll have to figure out if that makes sense in context of your own situation or not, but good luck!
That's definitely one unhealthy aspect of porn addiction, because there's a lot of research supporting that porn changes the way you think and interact. However, the more important aspect of this addiction is neurological, which is described in much detail on this link: http://yourbrainonporn.com/what-if-i-use-porn-without-orgasm. It also describes why edging is pretty bad for your sexual health as well. What's surprising to most people is that even though the problems associated with porn addiction are because of the changes in your brain, it's because of the physical changes in your brain, mainly your dopamine receptors.
I was real worried when I started masturbating that it be affecting me after noticing a few signs but everywhere on the Internet I went everyone was like, "no, masturbation is completely healthy even if you do it more than once a day." Only now did I realize after going to the site I linked, yourbrainonporn.com, that I realized that porn was the thing that was really affecting me, not really masturbating. Unfortunately, nowadays people automatically associate porn with masturbation so they often take people saying that masturbation is healthy the wrong way.
just a heads up that this site is not based on solid science at all and has an obvious anti-porn agenda. not saying no one could possibly be addicted to porn (you could be!), but don't let random websites or /r/NoFap scare you into something
I agree with you on the part that they are not based on concrete studies, however I ( and I'm sure a lot of other people as well) can relate to most of the stuff they are posting which is why I decided it'd be worth my time to listen to what they have to say. I am not blindly following them just because they were #1 on my google search; believe me I looked into this quite a bit beforehand.
Porn addiction is extremely similar to many other addictions(in how it manifests itself, not the effects) because it too affects the dopamine receptors of your brain by basically overloading them and causing a negative feedback. Since there has already been a ton of research on other addictions, a lot of it is going to overlap.
They address in this particular link: http://yourbrainonporn.com/there-are-no-scientific-studies-that-say-porn-is-addictive-right
Do you know anything about neurotransmitters and pharmacology? I know only a little, just curious about your background
about a third of the linked article is arguing that behavioral addiction for porn can exist - not in dispute, behavioral addiction for anything can exist. the author then makes some huge jumps - orgasm releases a decent amount of dopamine ("one orgasm equals two cheeseburgers" is actually true, lol, but they both pale in comparison to things like meth), thus ADDICTION!!!. He then talks about how junk food releases dopamine and now people are fat - trying to make an anecdotal case for junk food addiction to make an analogy to porn. the problem is - all food releases dopamine, not just junk food! it is beyond a stretch to claim that an addiction to junk food is the leading cause of obesity. From there, he fails to adequately differentiate orgasms from pornography. he just goes back to the same flawed brain studies to demonize porn. the impotence study he tries to cite isn't related to porn - it's related to masturbatory technique.
Doing something you like releases dopamine, no shit. It doesn't "overload your dopamine system" and it isn't even close to analogous to a drug that bonds to dopamine receptors - a drug is external, orgasm releases existing dopamine at a higher rate for a short time. The release of dopamine happens all the time, including when you play Pokemon!
This isn't to say behavioral addiction isn't real - it obviously is and can be, but it's important to understand that downregulation of D2 receptors isn't completely synonomous with addiction and that this website's goal is to convince people who otherwise don't feel impairment in their lives that they are addicts. Addiction is when things you enjoy get in the way of your life and you can't / have trouble stop/ping when you want to.
by all means if your life is better without porn do what you want - just don't let "scientists" guilt trip you by throwing terminology at you and expecting you to be confused
I will establish that I did learn a fair bit about the nervous system (synapses, nervous cells, the brain, etc.) in one of my classes at my community college, though it wasn't centered completely around the subject.
You're certainly right about the fact that all food releases dopamine. However, it's been shown in quite a few studies that junk food releases a greater amount of dopamine mainly due to the higher amount of fat present in the foods. This isn't to say that all junk foods are fatty and that all non-junk foods aren't fatty, but there certainly is a tendency for junk food to contain higher amounts of unhealthy fat. I won't claim that an addiction on junk food is the main reason for obesity in America, mainly because I haven't done my research on the subject and know there are a lot of other factors for obesity like genetics.
You fail to mention that sexual activity dwarfs most of our other activities in terms of dopamine release by a VERY large margin. Playing Pokemon is an invalid example because overall the amount of dopamine that it actually releases is incapable of restrictng our dopamine receptors. (Unless you're really into it or like winning global championships everyday, lol).
Porn especially releases a TON of dopamine even compared to normal sexual activity and that's why it has the potential to cloud up your dopamine receptors. (Though I can't compare it to drugs since I've never tried them lol) It's very artificial because it portrays sex in an unrealistic and overstimulating way. I can't provide any research links to back that up but it's easy enough to affirm it for yourself: If you watch porn on a regular basis, abstain for at least 2 weeks then watch it again. When I did that, I was literally shivering because of the dopamine stimulation. You say that dopamine release "can't overload you dopamine system", but you couldn't be farther from the truth. It is true that in normal concentrations dopamine won't inhibit the dopamine receptors, but above a certain concentration, the excess dopamine will cause a negative feedback loop and the dopamine itself will bind to the allosteric site of the dopamine receptors.
I do agree that the downregulation of D2 receptors isn't completely synonymous, however it's probably the driving factor for a lot of addictions because the harder it is to get the dopamine highs that people are used to, the harder people will try to achieve those highs whether it be through drugs, porn, etc.
I think you're misunderstanding what the site is trying to convey. They mention what they are claiming explicitly in their about page (scroll down to the FAQS), but there in no way do they say that if you watch porn you are an addict, like you just said. What they are saying that is that watching porn can have bad effects on your sexual health, even if you are not an addict. You don't have to be an addict to have sexual issues stemming from porn. Regarding convincing people who don't fell "impairment" in their lives yet are being convinced they are addicts (which they aren't trying to), this is kind of a moot point because you really don't know how impaired you could be(emphasizing this for a reason) until you get off porn and see the effects. What might be normal to you atm, could feel worse when you're off porn. I'm not saying that's what will happen (though I'm inclined to argue so), but for example, many people who are addicted to sugar say they feel fine and only until they get off it do they realize how much processed and simple sugars dampers the quality of their life.
Chris is me, if you want to continue discussing this I'm sure we could do it via PM. That way we won't bog down the thread with this particular discussion. :rolleyes:
Just popping in to say if you want to continue this discussion, feel free to do it in the thread because it's the first topic in like ten pages that isn't shit-tier
but i get a girlfriend and do her soooooooo bad pls tell me how
Well, then I'll ask this question towards everyone:
What are experiences with porn? Have you ever quit and seen a difference? Do you think porn is or is not harmful? Post with your experiences below.
I read nofap and I have the death grip
which will be useful when someone tries to take my porn away from me
the thing that I dont think the nofap community takes into consideration is the future because you know if they find out masturbation is actually bad for your health everyone will have a sperm cloner in their fridge or something and maybe penis revitilization that makes you sensitive again or nanobots or something idk just have hope you guys and keep on grippin
Well, normally I wouldn't get involved with this conversation because my interest in discussing my specific sexual practices with a bunch of teenagers is low as hell, but fuck it. I've quit using porn multiple times (all unintentionally just due to my interest waning for a period of a few weeks up to a year or more... and yes, that's after using it very regularly/"excessively") and yet to see any difference in my quality of life before/after. Never noticed any excessive dopamine stimulation either, but demonising that particular NT and anything associated with releasing it isn't anything new.
That said, I think porn absolutely can be harmful, but I'd argue it's more problematic in the way minwu described at the end, giving off stupid ideas in a lot of different areas, particularly with fetishisation (and I mean that in the objectification/dehumanisation way, not 'omg this is something that turns me on'). You need only look at porn sites with comment sections (worst invention incidentally) to see just how fucking stupid people can be about this shit. Granted, some level of trolling/being awful should be expected, but... there's still plenty of stupid ass shit to see. HOWEVER... porn is not the biggest offender in any of those departments. Porn influences society, yeah, but society has a bigger influence on porn. Biggest example I can think of is interracial porn, where it tends to play on some racist fucking ideas about domination (and racism is by far the biggest response to it... after spambots). Porn isn't responsible for this particular brand of racism, but it definitely takes advantage of it and probably further perpetuates it.
So yeah. I think porn could be less bullshit in a lot of ways, but ultimately the biggest problem is probably societal attitudes. Porn itself may be physically/sexually harmful for some, but assuming they make up the majority just because you've had some problems with it and read on some website/s that it's a big problem seems kind of silly. Also, since orgasms release dopamine, does that mean... sex harms your sexual health? I KNEW IT!
Thing about sex is that you can't keep it up for hours at a time like you can with watching porn and edging, which can keep your dopamine levels high for longer. Porn addiction is usually accompanied with masturbation since admittedly it is hard to get addicted to porn when you don't masturbate to it. And of course people can get addicted to sex by overloading their dopamine receptors. Most people, (at least those who I know) never have sex more than 2 times per day, and that usually isn't enough to call you an "addict" lol.
Other than that thanks for the input. :)
What do you mean by "restricting"? What I'm getting at here is that I don't think you understand how dopamine receptors work. Sexual release triggers the reward circuit which includes dopamine release. But Pokemon isn't an invalid example - it's actually a great example! A lot of study has been put into why games are so fulfilling and uniquely engaging relative to other media. The constant small rewards add up and feel great over time, but you grow tolerant to them as well. sound familiar?
no it doesn't. if this were the case, among other things, orgasm would be dramatically better with porn than without.
think about it - this *can't* make sense. biologically your body can't tell the difference between watching a video of people fucking and watching people actually fuck.
I have definitely gone without porn for more than two weeks before. Didn't shiver. Looking at people fucking doesn't send me into a frenzy, it doesn't do anything other than sometimes it makes me horny. I believe this is the placebo effect, or perhaps the beginning of sexual release after not masturbating for two weeks.
these concentrations generally cannot be created from biological functions alone.
do you know what an allosteric site is?
to put it quite simply, the D2 receptor isn't the "high receptor", and the mere presence of dopamine activity doesn't really imply addiction. here's the thing: things can be addictive, but things can also be used by many people without addiction. There are plenty of social drinkers, occasional smokers, hell there are even people that actually do opiates on just special occasions. the neurotransmitter model for addiction that you present would require either substantially different reactions in those that do become addicted, or they'd require everyone to become addicted to anything that has that effect.
the implication that this and all of your posts make is that the default for all of us is "watch porn every night, all the time". you make it seem like "not using porn" is a new and novel idea. it's not. I watch porn maybe three times a week. I've gone for months without it before. I have been sexually active through porn use and through porn "abstinence". you can have some effects on your sexual health through your masturbation habits (i.e. the death grip), but the idea that porn universally affects the sexual health of most people that use it is just plain wrong
i think I'm done here, i was going to respond to the rest but you've got such a heavy emphasis on anecdotes, the placebo effect, and just a poor understanding of neurochemistry to the point that i don't think we're going to find common ground
if you're conflicted about degrading/domination remember how much she's enjoying it (presumably she is if she wanted you to do it); get off on her getting off so to speak. Worth noting: I've never been in a situation similar to what you describe, I am merely parroting the answers that I got when I asked a hypothetical question similar in nature to your question.
So "Zach" is back in my life. Those of you that read my little gay experience story will remember him. its almost been 2 years and to summarize; he is a little less feminine (mannerisms) but still one good looking human being.
also my personal world has been in major turmoil these last two months. Man, its funny how life works sometimes. So i finally got too friendly with a girl that i ended up actually wanting something with. naturally i fell for her hard after realizing that fact. and she also developed a liking for me as well. so were is the problem you say? well i knew from the beginning that nothing serious would ever come from her and i. There are reasons stopping her from getting into a relationship with a guy. she just simply cannot afford to get too involved with a guy at the moment. Now dont get me wrong, i am one to wise up to a girls bullshit when trying to let a guy down easy, but this girl i became good friends with before anything romantic started developing. i know that her's is a legitimate reason and i think thats partly why i'm so mad at myself. Why did i let myself get so emotionally involved? why allow myself to fall so hard when i know whats waiting at the end?
She and i have done things. lol we've had our fun, some i'm sure we've both come to regret. right now i'm unsure as to how i feel but i know i'm in a good place. i dont know if i want very badly for love to find me or if i'm just like "ok fuck feelings, i'm done. Just enjoy the chase and the meaningless sex". no i think maybe its "Fuck emotions". yeah thats were i am at i think
Generally she just wants to be "commanded" what to do, for starters. She wants you to be primal and forceful. If you're uncomfortable and want to test the waters with it, low key stuff like hair pulling, holding her hands down, bending her over furniture and other things, etc are good ways to start. If she wants more, you can be rough with her or even hold her around her neck (try not to literally choke her though, just hold firmly enough to control her). Finishing on her face is also a common act associated with it. That's your basic level domination, but there's many more levels you can reach depending on her fetishes. She might be the kind of girl that like to be smacked around, tied up, or other things in the realm of BDSM. If this is the case, some other smogon users may be able to give you some tips.
tl;dr version - she wants you to be rough with her and take control. Tell her what to do, hold her by her hair, give her commands. Be selfish: she's doing this because she gets off on pleasing you.
lol, Waterbomb nailed it.
Ninahaza, sorry you're having girl-problems! I would fist-bump you but yeah, emotions suck (especially when they aren't be reciprocated and/or appear at inconvenient times).
Furthermore, I only read this page of this whole discussion and hot damn, I never thought of porn as something to be addicted to (I mostly find it funny but hey, I just get turned on by different things). Now I have some discussion points for the next drinking games I have with friends, haha.
the advice in this thread isn't necessarily bad, but it's not necessarily right. you need to *ask her what she wants*. Talk to her about it. This accomplishes two things. First, it tells you what you should do and gives you an idea what she's looking for. Secondly, hearing from her own mouth that what you're about to do is exactly what she wants does a lot to make people like yourself feel more comfortable doing it. I like kinky stuff sometimes, but I can literally only do it with the full knowledge that my partner is into and LOVES it. I couldn't just tie up or spank some random person and just hope that they wanted it.
I'm pretty sure 100% of the solutions to the problems brought up in this thread can be boiled down to "communication, asshole".
Probably worth pointing out if it's something you're uncomfortable with and/or don't want to do, you don't have to. Should go without saying, but you know... just a gentle reminder. You don't owe her shit.
ehhh, she's suckin your dick, you owe her a little bit
at least be a cunning linguist
edit: probably alone in this, but is anybody else underwhelmed with blowjobs?
edit2: in before "you probably haven't had a good blowjob", that's not the fuckin problem (BAN ME PLEASE)
How about a cunnilinguist?
Blowjobs can be underwhelming yes, but it depends on the person. Some people just have a hard time getting off on a blowjob, myself included. However, there is something to be said for a really good one. I'm not going to tell you that "you haven't had a good blowjob", but you'd be amazed at the difference technique can make.