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Remind me why Wobbuffet's banned again?

Discussion in 'Smogon's Greatest Hits' started by Jumpman16, Aug 30, 2005.

?

Should Wobbuffet stay banned?

  1. Yeah, fuck that shit.

    91.6%
  2. No, what's the big deal?

    8.4%
  1. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    Nd's post in one of the modserver threads prompted this, though it's been bothering me for months now. Like I said in the thread, I have never, ever lost a pokemon to or because of Wobbuffet. Why it's banned in competitive play is really beyond me, since imo it's a shittier version of Dugtrio that requires more prediction and takes like three turns before it can be a real threat. Aren't we smart enough to find ways around it without banning it?

    It's been so long since it's been "officially banned" that I really am concerned that it was just lumped in with the ubers, and that the people who think it should still remain banned haven't seen it since like last year or whenever when Advance play was just picking up steam and things like Boah and CB Salamence were yet to be created. With one or more CBers on basically every team lately and the ever-popular Tyranitar's Sandtream still limiting its efficacy, I fail to see how Wobby's still this huge, game-breaking threat now that we are all smarter plays who have more ideas in our heads now than we did many months ago. But even last year, I didn't see the big deal.

    First, allow me to go through my very first team of pokemon and how they didn't care about wobby. And seeing as the general way for wobby to 'own' something is to switch in, we will of course take this into account. People seem to forget that the fact that wobby has to switch into things to take them down means that pokemon may have used move that wasn't an attacking move, but oh well:

    1) Jolteon, could BP its sub away from Wobby. Jolteon would either have Thunderbolted or Subbed, I'd usually do the latter if I switched into something like Skarmory or Charizard, maybe Tbolt if I switched into Gengar's Tbolt.

    2) EspyJump, you know how this works. I'd either have a CM or a Sub by the time Wobby got there, and I would either BP away to #4 or #5, or even #3, depending on how many CM I had and what pokemon, if any, they decided to switch to from Wobby, usually Blissey or Tyranitar. If the latter, I went with...

    3) Starmie with T-wave. The pokemon that Wobby gave the most trouble, but honestly you'd have to switch Dugtrio in after Encoring T-wave, and nobody did that, for whatever reason. And considering that Starmie was very often the recipient of EspyJump's CMs, have fun taking more than one surf, Wobby.

    4) Skarmory with Taunt, JumpSkarm, whatever — I've been using this and only this for only a year, gtfo wobby.

    5) The Quintessential Tyranitar. Of course, you can't switch this into Wobbuffet because of Shadow Tag, but can Wobby switch into this? And let's not forget that there's a 50% chance that you ARE going to face this Tyranitar because of my BPers. Anyway Tyra Taunts then DDs, probably behind a Sub and/or a CM to make the decision easier, etc.

    6) Blissey with T-wave. Though it could just toss cause it didn't care about the Encore attempts since Counter's still a 5hko even if wobby decides to stay in, and it can Safeguard all it wants.

    This isn't my main argument lol, I just wanted to point out that my first sucessful team on NB had no problems at all with Wobby, so I must have been on to something even if I didn't build the team with it in mind! Anyway, after a year of playing, I still don't see what the big deal is. I've never been a big fan of the whole 3 CBers + Magneton deal, and maybe that's why I never cared about Wobby, even though what the hell CBer can it switch in on safely? Heracross and Medicham both have SE attacks to catch it, and either way it's still not taking to CBed hits very well.

    You can't switch it in to Cursers like Snorlax and Swampert and Encore, because then what? You pray Encore lasts more than two turns even though you're not taking down a Careful, Cursing Snorlax without p/seudo hazing it, which you could have done without the "help" of Wobby anyway? In general, if you have a stat-upper, you can rest assured that Wobbuffet cannot phaze you (LOL POKÉPUN [for fuck's sake :(]).

    Finally, I understand the Wobby/Duggy combination and how gay it can be, but seriously, how is that much gayer than Maggy/Duggy? Skarmory is still the #1 wall in pokemon, and probably always will be, and I fail to initially see what extremely vaulable pokemon, besides Blissey, the Wobby/Duggy combination thwarts. Keep in mind that a well-played, Adamant Duggy should take out Blissey by itself, and that people are shifting towards Lax from Blissey as their special wall, one that totally pisses on the Wobby/Duggy combination.

    Naturally, CS PMed me right before I posted this and we were bickering and she's convinced I can't "win" this argument, but at the very least it can lead to some more interesting, intelligent discussion. So let's have at it — I could go on but I'd like to get this out there first to generate some feedback.

    edi: uh and if you are going to vote at least have the decency to post your reasoning, sheesh :roll:
  2. Infinitium

    Infinitium

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    A well played wobbuffet with a good matchup can more or less guarantee you either a free kill (aka lol cbanders) or a free turn/kill (encoring statups or status) Throw in wish and the decent defenses and It's a bitch to take out efficiently. Not every team packs houndoom/tyranitar/dusclops/taunting anyhing. I can envision a metagame without it, but that would require a status move of sorts on all pogeys not immune to mirror coat/counter. Not worth it imo. Then again, we're all free to change it's trait in the modserver, right?
  3. gene

    gene GENE
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    If wobby was unbanned, I am sure a few if not many people would use it. If that was so, it would really suck having two wobbys switch in at one time. I'm sure many instances like this would happen and eventually people would press to have wobby rebanned. Wobby hardly appears in ubers because almost everything there takes a shit on him, so the threat there isn't large but he's more capable of doing damage in the standard metagame that accidents where both players predict wrong and switch wobby in the same time as the other player would happen more often.

    Also switching in your wobby on the opponents' could be a method of forcing a tie if you were about to lose.
  4. Basics

    Basics

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    The bottom line is if I'm leading with Wobuffet, and you don't have one of Baton Pass, Taunt, or a Choice Band, my Wobuffet will Encore, then switch/counter/mirror coat. I'll be switching to the single best counter my team has for that Pokemon, so you should be fucked. If things start going downhill with Cursers, you can bring in Skarmory and Roar. The fact of the matter is there are only a few choice move combinations that can counter him. You happen to have alot of them on your team, but fuck it, not everyone does. And unless you want all teams to be the same as yours, then this is just not going to work.
  5. skarm

    skarm I HAVE HOTEL ROOMS
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    Actually, Basics, if turn 1 Wobby vs Choice Bander the Wobby will win, not the CBer.

    I dunno, I'd like to see at least tried out again. Sure Wobbuffet and Dugtrio together can be annoying, but people complain enough about Magneton and Dugtrio altogether. I don't even remember the last time I lost to a Wobbuffet in a standard match (though I did lose to one like three days ago in some shitty stadium mode one).

    If you're scared about two Wobbuffet's switching in on each other simply don't use one.
  6. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    Perhaps at the start of a battle, but as I posted, you can really only switch it into a CBer once.

    Wish essentially telegraphs the switch back to a wounded Wobby, in my opinion, so you're free to switch right the hell back to your wobbuffet counter, be it Skarmory (spare me the Magneton support "arguments" please) Tyranitar if you're feeling ballsy, or any of your other Wobby counters.

    Fair enough, but if you're playing without a pokemon that can't stand its ground against Wobby, then your team needs some rethinking.
  7. stf

    stf

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    The person who uses Wobbuffet would not keep in Wob for those threats at all. The main reason is, well it will get killed lol. Second, Wob is mainly used for taking out specific pokemon that cant do shit to it, namely everything in the game minus those counters...and I don't think that every team would have every single one of those pokemon you listed, or else the game would be boring (not that it isn't already). If T-Tar comes in, psh Wobby is gone, no way I'm keeping that thing in. But hell, if I see a special sweeper jump in, or a c-bander, Wob is gonna be put in with that thing and kill you. Shadow tag means that youre not leaving, and encore means that you are helpless (unless youre cbanding it, then oops for you anyway).

    For example, a 300 attack pokemon choicebanded attacking with a 100 base attack would only do, at max, 32% to Wob. Adding stab, that goes only to 48%. Either way, you're dead. Now if it's STABbed, then that's a different story, but who would switch it into a CB shadow ball?

    Summarizing it all together, Wob can be used to take out everything that doesn't counter it easily and effectively, which can be your whole team. There are only a couple of things that can take it out, and it does not have to stay to see them. And besides, who would want to lose to that thing?

    wobba wobba
  8. Arcamis

    Arcamis

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    Nobody will be able to do anything with pokes slower than wobby. Think if you take your snorlax out, everyone can just switch wobby in and encore whatever you did to KO you with counter if it was Return/Shadow ball or switch to a focus puncher if it was curse. Mixpert also has a lot to fear, since his moves won't even leave a sufficient dent in wobby to put him out of action until he gets a wishpass.
  9. cholena

    cholena
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    You said to compare wobb teams to maggy/duggy teams to me in pm. All i'll say to you is fine i see the comparison, so wobb gets unbanned and what do we have now, maggy/duggy/wobb teams, oh yay the fun!!!
  10. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    To take a typical Choice Bander in Salamence, both his CB Flying and EQ do over the 37% on average needed to 3HKO the typical Wobbuffet. If you want to switch Wobby into CB Sala like that, and have it be at like 25% and easily 2hkoed by just about anything after you kill a pokemon, then be my guest, I'd rather use Suicune or Milotic to counter Salamence. Salamence can CH any one of them, Wobby Suicune or Milotic, and make it a 2HKO, so that arguments gone, and if Salamence stay in to any of the three after the initial blow, it's dead, and Milotic and Suicine can recover their HP so whatever.

    You're forgetting that wobbuffet really needs HP to be that much of a threat, and it's not going to take repeated beating from six pokemon that, as I have stated above, aren't really a good "team" if NONE of them can stand up to Wobbuffet very effectively.
  11. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    if everyone started using this trio i'd go back to using DD Tyranitar in a heartbeat.
  12. cholena

    cholena
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    you would need to dd twice to be faster then dugtrio and only a person with half a brain is going to let you dd twice when they have dugtrio.
  13. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    when does snorlax not use curse as its first move? Or Swampert for that matter (and if you're using mixpert in the first place you're already asking to do nothing lol)
  14. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    my tyra banks was set in stone 242 so 363 after a DD and everybody uses adamant, 339 speed dugtrio now to "2HKO" blissey so that point is moot to me :|
  15. Flameout

    Flameout
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    *Didn't read everyone's response so pls don't flame if I repeat a comment*

    Jump raised good points, but I think that Wobby should stay banned because you (the Wob user) is very dangerous if he/she knows what they're doing. Plus, Wob doesn't even have to be used to kill an entire team, it can just be used to Encore a stat upping move or a move like Heal Bell and allow something like TTar or Mence or Meta to come in and rape effectively. The key to Wobb is using it effectively and not recklessly. Sure, I wouldnt switch it into a Cursing Lax or Swampo, but I'd switch it into Regice or a non-BPer or non-Stat upper. One could possibly make the argument that "Well, Salamence is dangerous in expert hands" well, you can switch your Suicune or another proper counter into Mence and make him run. Too bad the same can't be said about Wobb. Now I realize most of the more expert players don't use Wobb, which is probably why some may not see Wobb as THAT huge a deal, but (though I'm not an expert, but I can predict), I had much fun using a Wobb in a team I made. It didn't lose much, mainly because Wobb allowed me to do what I wanted, and I supported it with Wish from Umbreon (or some pokemon, I'll check that), so that kept Wobb alive longer.
  16. cholena

    cholena
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    then it lacks defenses and can't switch in easy, and dd tar is not going to stop

    vaporeon, magneton, dugtrio, wobbuffet, claydol, skarmory

    EDIT: this is why the whole topic is pointless

    me: you need 2 dd's to be faster then dugtrio
    you: i'll just use a fast tyranitar
    me: i'll just use claydol
    you: i'll just use another poke to counter claydol
    me: then i'll just counter that

    continue till i get bored of arguing...which is now.
  17. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    i know you're done arguing and all but how in the world doesn't dd ttar stop magneton or wobbuffet or skarmory absolutely cold?
  18. Basics

    Basics

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    skarmory beats tyranitar with hp fight
  19. cholena

    cholena
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    i think if you have nothing sensible to post you shouldn't post. Claydol stops dd tar cold. Why did boah get made? cos claydol stops dd tar cold. =)
  20. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    i know you're kidding but this is not really the thread for this, lol

    are you seriously talking to me...i never said claydol didn't stop dd ttar cold, i took issue with your other "counters", especially wobbuffet who this thread is about in the first place :sad:
  21. cholena

    cholena
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    well a team that consisted of only claydol would pretty much suck as a team, wouldn't it jump?
  22. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    don't know why you continue to want to go off topic especially with me lol...everything has a counter, that's like the #1 rule in pokemon, my POINT is that you saying that wobby stops dd ttar cold is ridiculous. of course you have claydol on a team with it, but why on earth do you need wobbuffet with claydol to stop dd ttar? further, to bring the discussion away from just tyranitar, why do you need wobby to encore stat uppers so that you can get x pokemon (where x isn't dugtrio) in?
  23. Mekkah

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    It's been said a thousand times now: a well-played Wobbuffet that switches in when something else switches, or some random wall comes in, will either Countercoat one Pokémon to death or Encore something and let you face a Belly Drummed Charizard or a Slaking hit or a Swords Danced Heracross. If something like Heracross comes in on Wobbuffet comes in on it, it won't really stay in, and just come back later to haunt you. Yes, it needs full health for that one kill, but then it DOES get it. And don't forget Vaporeon/Umbreon with Wish support, if you're paired up with Blissey that Wobbuffet is going to last for ages.

    Your team isn't really a good argument in my opinion - it might not have been created with Wobbuffet in mind, but it does have 4 of it's "counters", two being BP, two others being Taunt, but seriously I don't want every single of my teams having to use something with Taunt, Baton Pass, Skill Swap or whatever random Wobbuffet counter.

    Now, I voted it for staying banned - I don't think you'll be convinced by what I just said (it takes serious life threatening to do that, and more), so I'll just say that people should try it out. However, one of my biggest problems with allowing Wobbuffet is that everyone nowadays should know it is good. Allowing it WILL make it standard, and you will have lots of Wobbuffet vs Wobbuffet wars - the most technical argument against using it.
  24. Doomsday

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    hm I've just thought that banette can beat the shit out of wobba - CB STABed Shadow Ball, and since counter doesn't work in ghosts..


    then wobba uses Switch :sad:
  25. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    The point I keep trying to drive home is that you had better have a counter for BellyZard anyway or your team is going to get pissed on, regardless. BellyZard can be sent in on a Skarmory spikes and still essentially have that free BD, unless you're really friggin ballsy and decide to roar away a Charizard. And that same Skarmory pisses on Heracross, Swords Dance or no, and so does CB Sala. You are going to have to do a LOT of chessing to maneuver around a Wobby/Maggy/Duggy team with CBers everywhere

    i know that that's why i posted that i know it's not a good argument with an exclamation point like this! I just wanted to show how my mentality on wobby has still not changed much from then — i've always had three or more pokemon that can go toe-to-toe with it.

    i am 100% for this argument, but chaos was talking about coding it so that if you have the two out at the same time they both die lol. i'd be all for that

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