Removal of Trick Room = auto 0 Speed IV on PS

Jibaku

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#1
I think the auto 0 Speed IV feature when Trick Room is added to a moveset should be removed. In VGC it is more likely that Trick Room setters have nonzero Speed IV, and max Speed TR setters are also common. The 0 Speed IV feature not only adds more inconvenience than it is helping for the most part, it is also quite annoying when you set your IVs before adding Trick Room onto the moveset, only to have it go to 0 (and I've had at least one instance where I forgot that this was a thing and entered a battle thinking I've modified my Speed IV).

In the same vein, removing Trick Room from a moveset should not auto-snap it back to 31. IMO Trick Room's behavior in regards to IV changing should just be like almost any other move: nothing.

I'm sure similar concepts apply to other formats where Trick Room is common, due to the on/off nature of the field effect placing more emphasis on...well...having an actual Speed stat.
 
#2
I'll echo the above regarding non-min Speed TR setters. CAP would appreciate this being removed as well. It's fairly common for Fidgit to be running max Speed for utility reasons outside of Trick Room, while also providing a "slow" U-turn under Trick Room, allowing abusers like Alolawak to be brought in more easily.

Needing to manually set your Speed IV to 0 isn't much of an annoyance, but realizing you're running 0 Speed IVs and 252 Speed EVs in the middle of a battle certainly is.
 
#5
For singles this is a terrible idea, if you can apply it to doubles metas only that makes sense, but trick auto corrects to trick room too much for my taste.
Last gen Hoopa's best set in UU was Trick room and it ran max Speed Modest with Trick Room so it could do damage against bulkier teams but also turn the tables against offense with trick room.

It may be the exception rather than the rule but I thought it was worth pointing out.
 

Martin

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#6
There is no reason to have it automatically set to 0 in singles 'cause it is important to be able to outpace walls outside of Trick Room anyway. Trick Room is an anti-offense tool, and the types of teams you will be actually the move against will very rarely carry attackers which are slow enough to warrant 0 IVs (and the few exceptions to this rule almost always carry speed investment which puts them above these Pokemon anyway).

I'm fully behind the change for all formats.
 

Imanalt

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#8
why did we change this? The vast vast majority of pokemon in singles (idk about doubles i dont play doubles) using tr will want to be as slow as possible. Obviously there are exceptions as have been brought up in the thread, but its significantly more likely than not that you will want a 0 speed iv if you're running trick room. It was a nice and convenient feature that trick room autoset to 0 speed ivs, and it makes the teambuilder as a whole worse that it doesnt.
 
#9
why did we change this? The vast vast majority of pokemon in singles (idk about doubles i dont play doubles) using tr will want to be as slow as possible. Obviously there are exceptions as have been brought up in the thread, but its significantly more likely than not that you will want a 0 speed iv if you're running trick room. It was a nice and convenient feature that trick room autoset to 0 speed ivs, and it makes the teambuilder as a whole worse that it doesnt.
did you read this thread
 
#11
yeah i read where literally 2 singles sets were brought up, a cap set on a bad mon and a set that people who played uu last gen say was bad, and no other rationale was given for making basically every single tr setter in singles be a little more inconvenient to put into teambuilder
There is no reason to have it automatically set to 0 in singles 'cause it is important to be able to outpace walls outside of Trick Room anyway. Trick Room is an anti-offense tool, and the types of teams you will be actually the move against will very rarely carry attackers which are slow enough to warrant 0 IVs (and the few exceptions to this rule almost always carry speed investment which puts them above these Pokemon anyway).

I'm fully behind the change for all formats.
from this and other posts in the thread, running 31 Speed IVs on TR setters is clearly a fairly common experience

another example is Mimikyu in VGC, who usually runs max Attack / max Speed Jolly to outrun Tapu Lele turn 1; while this is a Doubles example it's still an argument against TR setting to 0 Speed on every team
 
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Jibaku

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#12
Trick Room is a centerpiece in doubles formats whereas I'm almost certain it's nowhere close to that in singles. Having it autoset to 0 doesn't make sense when the primary metagames that actually use TR rarely has 0 IV on the setter.

Point is, the average singles player won't often feel the inconvenience as much as the average doubles player would (and actually does), with the respective unfavorable setting.
 
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cant say

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#13
Is there any way for the settings to be different for singles and doubles metas? Because all/majority of the arguements in favour seem to be from doubles whereas singles seem to dispute this...

I personally think TR should still trigger automatic 0 speed fwiw
 

Jibaku

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#15
I'd settle for the Speed IV =/= 0 mechanic being only in doubles formats along with the default no format, if there is a way to do so.
 

Steven Snype

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#16
i think the better thing to do is to just have a highlight over a Pokemon's Speed/ put an icon next to speed if either Trick Room is on a teammate or a mon itself, with a notification that you can hover over with an info box: "Be mindful of Trick Room and speed creeping" and link a handy-dandy guide to a smogon page or something about it just so players would be mindful of it. This should be the most lenient thing to happen so people can customize their speed spreads however they want to see fit. Maybe they want a 1 speed IV trick room to outspeed opposing TR dupes before TR to kill them. Any sort of speed creep preference like that should be left up to each player's discretion. The only default behavior imo should be the default for every other IV (31) and leave it on the onus of the player to change it. Having a reminder to be mindful of Speed with respect to TR or Tailwind for that matter ought to be sufficient. This should also cover the cases of "is it singles or doubles i'm prepping for?" the teambuilder will certainly know that and allows this to be deferred to the player.
 

Martin

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#17
I use TR mons every now and again and it is so rare for me to ever actually run reduced IVs on them on the basis of what I said previously, and if anything not running reduced IVs is advantageous so that you can win or at least tie in mirror matchups that you'd otherwise be at a massive disadvantage in and--even better--it allows things to actually run a little investment if they want to creep something to improve their out-of-TR matchups.

Seriously, I'm not quite sure why people are making such a big deal out of this change when TR is not only sparse in singles (as a strategy, full TR is gimmicky+matchup dependent+bad on the whole whilst still being reasonably restrictive to its team the case of OTR mons like Magearna, Reuniclus, Slowking etc. so as to avoid an early end to a sweep fucking over its teammates), but also when you consider just how detrimental it is to be dependent on Trick Room to deal with matchups that you shouldn't be relying on Trick room to deal with in the first place. This change can quite literally only be a good thing, and I'm quite frankly bewildered by this argument for having 0 IVs in singles despite the fact that forgetting to set a speed IV to 0 is way less consistent in being detrimental than having your speed IV at 0 on a 'mon which doesn't want it at 0 is.