Research Group #2 - Magmar, Lapras, Exeggutor

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Looking more into Lapras and possible teammates for it. Torterra resists two of Lapras's weaknesses, and Lapras in turn resists Torterra's main weakness, and protects it from fire damage through Rain Dance, as well as being super-effective against Fire-types and Flying-types. Plenty of others can benefit from Lapras's presence, gaining fire resistances and the ability to use Thunder and Hurricane more effectively.
 
I'm in. Will be using Lapras and Exeggutor. I'm thinking about using a Lapras with Whirlpool/ Perish Song/ Rain Dance/ Rest. It looks extremely gimmicky and is most likely trash, but I just want to try it. I still don't know what set I'll be using on Exeggutor. Magmar looks pretty outclassed in my opinion since Special Attacker Magmar gets outclassed by Simisear which is sad. Physical Magmar looks outclassed by Emboar which is stronger but not as fast so maybe not.

I've used SubDD Lapras in the past which was really great. I don't know why I stopped using it but it requires a lot of team support iirc. I've used Specs Exeggutor before which is absolutely monstrous.
 
Although it's probably complete trash, Exeggutor can use Skill Swap to force Chlorophyll, a near-useless ability in NU, onto an enemy, as well as possibly removing an ability they rely on, like taking Toxic Boost from Zangoose or Flare Boost from Drifblim.
 
I don't think using Magmar defensively is the way to go--there's too much competition from the likes of Camerupt, who can lay down SR and has access to STAB Earth Power; Flareon, who (as already mentioned), has Wish and Heal Bell to keep itself healthy; and Lampent, who can spinblock. Its only real advantage is being able to go physical with Fire Punch and being able to fit Clear Smog on its movesets.
 
For those interested in DD Lapras, I'd like to point out that BW2 tutors (though granted, dunno if we're using those) give Lappy access to Aqua Tail and Outrage.

LapDance 2.0 @ Lefties / Lum / LO
[Water Absorb]
16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Aqua Tail / Waterfall
- Outrage
- Rest / Ice Shard

I just theorymonned this but after doing so, I have the desire to test it out. Will definitely be doing that whenever PS comes back online. x3 Might also give offensive Maggy a shot too.

I actually already use this Exeggutor in NU:
Exeggutor @ Lum
Timid + 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
- Sleep Powder
- Psychic
- Rest
- Leaf Storm

This is also totally not my set, I borrowed it from someone else (the likes of whom I've forgotten, sorry). I'm thinking about using it with maybe Stun Spore in place of Leaf Storm (and maybe Sub > sleep powder).
 
The thing is, Magmar does get a better spedef because eviolite, it can will-o-wisp, and doesnt have to use moveslots with HealBellStealthRockWish Shenanigans. The reason to run Magmar > Flareon is generally because flareon's movepool is rather gloomy and needs and upgrade. It's arguably better at the job, sure, but that's not the point. Charizard get SD/BD and quite a of Magmar's aforementioned moves, yet gets no comparison (Weak to rocks. Cool. Has flying type. Cool again.)

Camerupt, however, is also a good argument. But it certainly can't take Surfs as well, and doesn't even resist ground (though being neutral to rock is pretty cool).

Magmar is better offensively, that's okay. But if you don't venture to see what else it can do, then you'll never really know. Bulky attacker is prolly common, but most certainly the best.

Try the set, fail, then tell me :3
 
I'm thinking of using Lapras as a Rain Dance inducer to Rain Stall rather than Phione but I did just discover Lapras doesn't learn Scald...which hurts quite a bit.

It also can't U-Turn and is much slower and picks up an annoying neutrality to fire and a weakness to rock, but on the bright side it picks up STAB Ice Beam and a LOT more HP and general bulk.
 
I'm going to try this for the first time, wish me luck.

I will use:




I'm most interested in Curse Lapras in which case I will utilize the standard:

Lapras @ Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpeDef
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Waterfall
-
Avalanche



From there I will make changes as I see fit, and also try some of Lapras's new moves. As soon as PS goes back up, I'll make a new ALT.
 
Yeah, I'll be using Eggy, probably Magmar too, since I've already played plenty with Eggy. I'll post a little about my past experiences later.

edit: in. reading is hard .-.

edit 2: Hopefully I can actually contribute now!

I've been running Exeggutor since my very first team in BW NU, back in Stage 0, and I still remember it best for the time my opponent rage-quit when Specs Leaf Storm OHKOed his Swellow. I've run every variation of every set that Eggy has been known to use (bar SubSeed, mainly because I can't play defensively at all in this tier ;-;), and I've yet to regret it. Exeggutor is a juggernaut, offensively and defensively, and it makes me sad that more people don't use him. Plus, the metagame is so open to him right now. With Skuntank usage steadily decreasing, Offensive Exeggutor sets has much less real need to play as conservatively, as Absol (the only other good Pursuit user) has no business switching into Eggy at all. Between Sleep Powder and his dual STAB's, Regen cores basically can't touch him without having to predict around his attacks, switching around like mad to get any footing. Sure Fighting-types have gained Ice Punch throughout BW changes, but it means very little when you still have a 75% safe switch to Sawk and flat-out beat Gurdurr regardless, so claiming he isn't a good Psychic-type in this metagame is tripe. To summarize this all up, Exeggutor is, and always has been, one of the best 'mons in NU, and hopefully the RW will enlighten people of that.
 

Audiosurfer

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One thing I'd like to say about Magmar is that it makes a great counter to Amoonguss. It resists Giga Drain, Vital Spirit lets it switch in on spore, and you can either roast it with a Fire Blast or hit something with a Will-O-Wisp on the switch. On my team it's been performing pretty well.
 
I'm pretty new to the NU scene, but this thread inspired me to try out Lapras and Exeggutor, and I've had some success utilizing them in a dual weather/bulky offence team.

I use Ampharos to set up rain and screens which lets Lapras and my defensive minded Ludicolo go to work. Then I'm using the Sunny Day Sweeper set with Eggy (without HP fire, but I rely on other teammates to deal with other Eggys) to go on quick strike rampages.

The Lapras set I'm using is a bulky attacker with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Thunder, and Rest of abuse rain the hardest, but still able to hit hard if my back is against the wall. I just find Lapras a little hard to get going but once it does it's a huge force with big coverage.

As for Exeggutor, removing grass types is obviously a key point for my team and for him to get going, but he has the special attack to absolutely rip apart teams.
 
Okay, I'll just get this out there now. Still testing, though I am done for today. I am currently trying out a Sub Lapras set for the pokemon challenge (Might as well). This is the set;

Lapras (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Shell Armor
EVs: 12 HP / 76 Atk / 168 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Curse
- Protect
- Ice Shard

I'm running max Special Defense to tank as much as possible after a Curse. The 12 HP EVs is to hit 404 HP, which gives me 101-Subs for Seismic Tossers. The Attack and Defense investments are a bit random, but whatever.

I threw Protect on it to stall another turn, giving me some recovery from Lefties. With Ice Shard I just "Hey, I'm boosting my attack stat and lowering my speed - Priority STAB Wooo"

I wondered why I chose Shell Armor, but I like it when people can't crit me and they think I have Water Absorb - Shell Armor may be unreleased?


I have been testing it on a five minute team which was very weak to Stealth Rock to start off with.. I need to get the feeling for NU and will update the team. I could imagine another move instead of Protect working well, but it's fine for scouting Choice users.

Rapid Spin is necessary for Lapras (Sherlock Holmes here..) - I have been using it with a Torkoal, which also kinda can take Magmar on.

Still got some sets on paper that I want to try out, which I will test later.. Though I like Lapras :3
 
Okay, time to post my Magmar set.

Magmar @ Salac Berry
Trait: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Belly Drum
- Fire Punch
- Brick Break


With things like Amoonguss and Tangela being more common than ever, Magmar has an easy time switching in and forcing them out, giving Magmar a free Substiute, and in turn, a Belly Drum. Fire Punch is obligatory STAB, while I chose Brick Break because Cross Chop is more like Miss Chop and Mach Punch is illegal with Belly Drum.
 
Kk, so I've been doing some testing, at first using a Sunny Day-oriented team, which fared quite well, but was boring and I was using such standard stuff that I decided to move on to tinkering with the "challenge sets". Though I might have to look back into the Stun Spore Exeggutor (defensive Sun is not something I could manage if I wanted to :( ), I found that Magmar actually made a decent lure and utility with a physically-based set:


Magmar (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Vital Spirit
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Fire Punch
- Cross Chop
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Mach Punch

  • First and foremost, Magmar makes for an excellent answer to Amoongus. Vital Spirit allows him the ability to switch into it's Spore with impunity, with Eviolite complimenting his reasonable bulk such that he can shrug off Sludge Bomb (and obviously Giga Drain) with relative ease, proceeding to threaten him with his STAB.
  • Due to lack of interest, most people fail to realize that Magmar's physical Attack stat is but 5 points lower than his Special Attack. This allows Magmar to effectively lure in dedicated special walls and hit them reasonably hard with a Cross Chop:
    252Atk Magmar (Neutral) Cross Chop vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Lickilicky (Neutral): 43% - 51% (184 - 218 HP)
    252Atk Magmar (Neutral) Cross Chop vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Audino (Neutral): 48% - 57% (200 - 236 HP)
  • Additionally, since the ploy of a physical Magmar set only goes so far, this set also has the capacity to further lure in opponent's, crippling now more obvious switch-in's like Alomomola and Carracosta (who laughs at Cross Chop ;-;) with Will-O-Wisp or Toxic, depending on preference, necessity, etc.
  • Lastly, Mach Punch simply serves as an excellent utility in general right now, allowing Magmar to pick off weakened Normal-types like Cincinno (36-43%) and Zangoose (37-44%). This also allows Magmar to ruin Sucker Punch attempts from Absol and Cacturne, though Will-O-Wisp also serves to cripple them as is.
 
In with Harvest Exeggutor, i've just used him in the past and is pretty annoying. I'll test a classic set with a twist for Stun Spore.

alt: eRw2il
 
Im going with Exegutor and Magmar.

Going to try a mixed attacking Magmar set, and maby a specs set for Exeggutor.

alt: Draque Swag
 
So far I'm 5-0 with Lapras Rain Stall.

I'm starting to think that it's outclassed by Phione though as a Hydration abuser. Although Lapras is VERY bulky and can do crazy things like take a Thunderbolt and retaliate with a decently strong Surf on wounded opponents.


http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-nu1171


Here's an 88 turn game I had. Was pretty fun, but it highlighted some of the issues I have with Lapras in this capacity.

First off, it's really weak to rocks, and with no lefties this stuff adds up and allows Lapras to be KO'd before it can get off a Rain Rest.

Secondly, it can't U-Turn which is annoying, annoying, annoying. If I had Phione, this battle would've probably been finished a lot quicker because I would've been able to break his Octillery's sub with U-Turn and switch out to Electrode and proceed to threaten with 100 percent accurate Thunders.

Phione is also a good bit quicker as it's 80 base speed compared to 50.

Finally, although Lapras has superior coverage and slightly superior power, it has more trouble killing things because it doesn't learn Scald and thus cannot simply wear things out by burning them and recovering a bunch.

Lapras is by no means BAD in this capacity, but Phione is just a bit better...so my next endeavor will probably be to LEAVE Phione on and replace Aloma with Lapras.


Something like 252/252 Bold with Thunder/Ice Beam/Surf/Rest
 
So my team was based around Magmar and Exeggutor, those guys relly works very well together as they have pretty good synergy together. I made a normal team (no Sunny Day etc.) and it works pretty well, the sets I have used is a mixed set for Magmar and specs Exeggutor (might change it).

Magmar @ Life Orb
Trait: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 Spe / 152 SAtk / 100 Atk
Lonely Nature (+Atk, -Def)
- Fire Blast
- Cross Chop
- Hidden Power Grass
- Mach Punch

This set has worked wonders for me, reason for using a mixed set is that I personally think that Fire Punch is to weak, and Flare Blitz recoil damage is annoying. Cross Shop rock, steel, normal, dark. HP Grass is actually for Golurk and Mach Punch for priority and taking out thise weakened threats.

Well I dont find any reason for posting a classic specs set for Exeggutor so that is it.
 

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Ok, well I've been using a Lapras set using Substitute for the challenge and it's been pretty effective thusfar. Here's the set:

Lapras @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 SDef / 248 HP / 8 SAtk
Calm Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

Lapras makes a great specially defensive wall, taking hits from common special attackers and either hitting them with toxic or setting up on them. Some examples on how it can set up on stuff:

- 252 SpAtk Life Orb Haunter Sludge Bomb vs 248 HP/252 SpDef Lapras (+SpDef) : 28.51% - 33.69% 4-5 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
- 0 SpAtk Musharna Psychic vs 248 HP/252 SpDef Lapras (+SpDef) : 16.41% - 19.65% (7-10 hits to KO)
- 252 SpAtk Life Orb Serperior Giga Drain vs 248 HP/252 SpDef Lapras (+SpDef) : 36.29% - 42.76% (3-4 hits to KO)
- 252 SpAtk Life Orb Musharna (+SpAtk) Psychic vs 248 HP/252 SpDef Lapras (+SpDef) : 29.81% - 35.21% (4 hits to KO)

Here's what it does back to them:
-0 SpAtk Lapras Ice Beam vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Serperior: 63.92% - 76.29% (2 hits to KO)
- 0 SpAtk Lapras Ice Beam vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Haunter: 62.34% - 74.03% (2 hits to KO)

For things like Musharna that Lapras can't do much damage to, you can just hit them with Toxic. Also, this set, like many walls, doesn't like status, which is where Substitute comes in. When you're in against something this takes a pittance from, you can just set up a Substitute, which protects you from status while also having the added benefit of protecting you from attacks. Ice Beam is a solid STAB attack and combined with Thunderbolt gives Lapras BoltBeam coverage. Since it doesn't like SRs, Torkoal makes a great teammate, and it can also take physical hits for Lapras. Torterra also makes a good teammate, and can take Electric hits for Lapras.
 
The thing is, Magmar does get a better spedef because eviolite, it can will-o-wisp, and doesnt have to use moveslots with HealBellStealthRockWish Shenanigans. The reason to run Magmar > Flareon is generally because flareon's movepool is rather gloomy and needs and upgrade. It's arguably better at the job, sure, but that's not the point. Charizard get SD/BD and quite a of Magmar's aforementioned moves, yet gets no comparison (Weak to rocks. Cool. Has flying type. Cool again.)

Camerupt, however, is also a good argument. But it certainly can't take Surfs as well, and doesn't even resist ground (though being neutral to rock is pretty cool).

Magmar is better offensively, that's okay. But if you don't venture to see what else it can do, then you'll never really know. Bulky attacker is prolly common, but most certainly the best.

Try the set, fail, then tell me :3
Charizard isn't a wall. On everything else, though, you do raise a good point. But even if Magmar has better defenses with Eviolite, Flareon and Camerupt have better support moves to abuse than the fire duck. The only real advantage it has over the other walls is, as I said, being able to abuse physical moves more readily with Fire Punch on its defensive sets. I apologize if I didn't make that clear.

If you want to use Magmar as a special wall, more power to you. You just have to realize that it doesn't have the kind of movepool that lends itself readily to the role like some of the other defensive Fire-types in the tier.
 

marilli

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One of the things that really puts the Physical Magmar down is not its 95 Attack (as opposed to its 100 Special Attack) but the fact that most of its moves have such low Base Power, at least that's what I'm seeing on this thread with all these Fire Punches and ThunderPunches. I'm surprised that no one's really mentioned Flare Blitz as a viable move on the physically offensive sets!

252 Atk Magmar Fire Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Amoonguss (+Def) : 41.67% - 49.31% (3 hits to KO)

Fire Punch is a sad move, really. It doesn't actually force Amoonguss out! If Amoonguss has Stun Spore, it can just do that and switch out to anything not weak to Fire. If it doesn't have that, it can just stay in and Sludge Bomb thrice (including the turn it switches in) and you have it most likely poisoned. Oh, and its ThunderPunch is one of the most hilarious moves to face up against: it doesn't even 2HKO a 0/0 Samurott!

I'll try a Life Orb all-out special offensive set, perhaps with some status options. As for the physical set, I'd think col49's set is somewhere along the right track, but I'll probably use Flare Blitz over Fire Punch.
 
I've had the most success with a mixed scarf set.

Magmar (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Vital Spirit
EVs: 128 Atk / 252 SAtk / 128 Spd
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Cross Chop
- ThunderPunch/Flare Blitz

Thats not the exact ev spread, I'm not able to get on PO atm so I had to write that out myself from memory. I had a certain speed tier worked out too >_< But yeah that gives you an idea on what to use for moves. Fire Blast for strong STAB special, HP Ice for SW hits on ground and flying (although Fire Blast will easily take care of birds, HP Ice is there if you don't want to test your luck with accuracy). Cross Chop instead of Focus Miss.
 

marilli

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Magmar @ Life Orb
Trait: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Focus Blast
- Will-O-Wisp

I've been playing with a special Magmar, essentially like a Magmortar without Thunderbolt. I'm going all-out offensive with LO, which allows me to actually OHKO most Amoonguss. Somehow the physical Magmar spree is really helping me out because Alomomolas really like switching into this as well, and with the Spikes support I have it can KO Alomo's really easily. W-o-W is there to be a general nuisance vs. walls that somehow wall me, and it bypasses Sucker Punch users and crippled Absol + Skuntank. Because my team had a pivot Musharna, if I could cripple those dark types it really put the other team on their back foot. In general, Magmar is really weak against random threats that happen to outpace it + scarfers, so Musharna took them pretty easily as well. My experience isn't anything extensive, but looks like Magmar is the real deal!

ps: Psychic is actually not as horrible as people point out because it kills Emboars!
 
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