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Research Group #7 - Granbull, Masquerain, Swoobat, Throh

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by DTC, Oct 10, 2012.

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  1. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Mentor

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    Introduction:
    NU is a tier where many Pokemon are usable, and there are a ton of different options. Research Group aids in helping explore the tier. Who knows, maybe in future tier changes one of these Pokemon can be incredibly useful, potentially being able to check the new threats well. Maybe one of these Pokemon may find uses in other tiers and is not just a simple throw-away Pokemon, unlike some unfortunate Pokemon in NU.

    Some rules:

    • Be open-minded. Don't just say something is terrible and walk away; at least look into them and see what options they may be able to utilize.
    • Feel free to theorymon, but make it clear that you are theorymon'ing. At the end of the week, however, I want discussion to move towards how useful the Pokemon actually are in NU, and what sets are effective on them.
    • Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's quite possible that something might have gone unnoticed or is missing.
    • Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon I choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. I want discussion to stay on topic about the four Pokemon we are "researching". You'll be able to vote on what Pokemon you want the next Research Group right before it starts (out of a ballot that is determined by me)

    The four Pokemon that we will be looking into this Research Group are:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    How useful are these Pokemon in NU? What sets can they run effectively? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon? How well do they work in the metagame? If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning. Remember, discussion is not limited to this topic, you are encouraged to talk about these Pokemon in #neverused/#pokemon as well!

    Please include more substance in your posts than just "in" and what Pokemon you're using. What sets are you planning on using? What interests you about whatever Pokemon you're using? Remember: people who contribute a lot to Research Group will be listed on the hub page as an outstanding contributor for this Research Group.
  2. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~

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    Pretty cool mons like usual.

    I will be using Granbull for sure, and possibly Throh and Swoobat.

    I will be using a weird set on Granbull, but it is arguably the only set that another Normal-type can't outclass it in. It is a Thunder Wave / Heal Bell / Return / Close Combat set with max HP and max Attack and Intimidate. It's a bulky attacker that supports its team. It might work; it might not. For Throh, I'm curious about the SubBU set FLCL posted in Project Neverused. It seems unique while sporting good power and bulk. For Swoobat, I'm contemplating about using the pretty standard CM set or experimenting with a Liechi Acrobatics set that I don't think anyone has tested. The first one is known for its power while the second one can be quite surprising.

    I used Masquerain a while ago, and Stealth Rock is a downer, but it can pass Quiver Dances very well with its good bulk factoring in Intimidate. Pokemon like Regice and Ludicolo become exponentially more threatening with Quiver Dances.
  3. Bluwing

    Bluwing

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    I will probably test Masquerain, Granbull and Swoobat, I already have played with FLCLs Throh set and its pretty decent.
  4. Awmgnoob

    Awmgnoob

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    Looks like I'll be experimenting with Throh, Masquerain and and Granbull, Swoobat is unlikely. Will post experiences later.

    EDIT:

    [​IMG] @ Choice band
    Trait: Quick feet
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Return
    - Close combat
    - Crunch/Ice punch
    - Wild charge

    I was really surprised to not see this on the standard smogon page, but in my opinion it's the best set, what the heck is support set going to do that proper walls can do? Anyway here it is, the beast, I wouldn't call it a glass cannon as it has a base HP of 90, but 75/60 don't exactly improve it. I didn't include any of the fang moves because they're so weak even if they're SE a STAB return does more, the moveset is pretty standard and versatile, I won't patronize you with a standard CB user.
    Since this big guy is such a hard hitter, your best bet is to predict the player and switch to avoid the attack, anything with the good speed and above average SpA can take Granbull down quite easily, and even a SE move can do some damage from a physical attacker.

    Here are some calcs.

    252Atk Choice Band Granbull (+Atk) Wild Charge vs 252HP/252Def Alomomola (+Def): 47% - 56% (254 - 300 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 19% chance to 2HKO.

    252Atk Choice Band Granbull (+Atk) Crunch vs 252HP/252Def Golurk (+Def): 59% - 70% (226 - 268 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252Atk Choice Band Granbull (+Atk) Return vs 252HP/252Def Amoonguss (+Def): 54% - 63% (234 - 276 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    That same set but with LO could be viable in a TR team also.

    As you can see, I was going to do Masquerain and Throh first, but then I had a glimpse at Swoobat..

    [​IMG] @ Leftovers
    Trait: Simple
    EVs: 252 Spe / 252 SpA / 4 Def
    Modest Nature
    - Calm mind
    - Psychic
    - HP ground
    - Substitute

    Wowza, wowza. This fella is like Bibarel last year but with better typing. Simple is an amazing ability, and Swoobat looks damn average at a glance, but then it has 114 speed, with calm mind in its assets, it essentially gets a nasty plot AND an amnesia boost with one CM. Combine this with Substitute and you're avoiding status and special attack are being soaked up, 55 base Def remains a problem, but a double resist to ever apparent fighting attacks is a good boost for Swoobat.

    Swoobat takes 25% from SR and has low defense, anything neutral physical move will hit it a ton, as for actual counters, everything gets hit by psychic and HP ground. If it gets a +2, something will have to die, simple. It 2HKOs must stuff after a 2+, so most psychical neutral move should take Swoobat out, Golurk for an example, takes between 71-84% from a +2 Psychic, by the time this thing is gone, it has done serious damage, Absol is a viable option, but the sub can be risk to avoid the sucker punch.

    252SpAtk +2 Klutz Swoobat (+SAtk) Psychic vs 252HP/0SpDef Klutz Golurk (Neutral): 71% - 84% (274 - 324 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk +2 Klutz Swoobat (+SAtk) Psychic vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Alomomola (+SpDef): 48% - 57% (261 - 307 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 14% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

    252SpAtk +2 Klutz Swoobat (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Ground) vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Probopass (+SpDef): 79% - 93% (256 - 304 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
  5. zbabyovr9000

    zbabyovr9000

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    @Awmgnoob: I don't mean to be a downer, but what advantages does that Granbull set have over Ursaring? Ursaring is a bit faster, a tad bulkier on the special side, and a bit stronger. The only thing I can think of is that Ursaring doesn't have wild charge, but he does have thunderpunch so I don't see that as a big deal. That's Granbull's main problem, he's to much of an in between pokemon, and has to run a mixed support/attacker set to not be outclassed.

    I'm going to revisit using Granbull this week...I want to find a set that stands out from the other NU normal types.
  6. Awmgnoob

    Awmgnoob

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    @zbaby Good luck find that set, but I never brought up that it was superior to other physical attackers, but it's a cool niche Pokemon. A mix set would only give you fire blast, and with 60 SpA it'd needed significant investment to do much of anything, even a support set is outclassed, CB is the best option for Granbull, but that's just my opinion, and everyone is free to there's. :)
  7. zbabyovr9000

    zbabyovr9000

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    Sorry for not being clear...by mixed I meant like Annoyer's set, half support (T-Wave, Heal Bell), half physical attacker (Return, Close Combat).

    As for some theory-monning, would a rattled set work to support any psychic type? Rattled activates on all the super effective moves on psychics, so Granbull could conceivably come in, gain the speed boost and KO with the the respective move.

    Here is a possible set:

    Granbull @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 24 Def / 232 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Return
    - Close Combat
    - Earthquake
    - Substitute

    To explain the EVs, 232 Spe lets Granbull outspeed Jolly Absol after the rattled boost. The rest are put into HP and the Def to boost Granbull's physical bulk to be as great as possible.

    As for using this set, you would switch from your psychic type on a predicted night slash, and have Granbull take it to get the boost. Unfortunately, because of the need to run speed EVs, Absol can KO with night slash followed by sucker punch, so sub first to scout out sucker punch. If they superpower, then just close combat next turn. If they sucker punch, you're protected from the next attack and can KO with close combat.

    Earthquake is used to hit Skuntank, granting Granbull about a 70% chance to KO after rocks. This calc makes me wonder if expert belt may be a better option than leftovers on this set.

    Return is the obligatory STAB move should you need it in any other situation. No bug types/ghost types popped out as particularly threatening to psychics.

    I'm going to see if this works decently; it just seems too situational to be effective. Also, the existence of pursuit screws this over big time.

    Also...as for using special moves, you actually could use an uninvested fire blast (but lax nature) with a fire gem to net a KO on Pinsir after rocks, spikes, or life orb. But that just seems like a stretch.

    Edit: After some testing, baiting bug and darks moves is not a reliable strategy and will often lead in the opponent setting up on you, or just not giving you rattled while whittling down Granbull. And Absol and Skuntank aren't on every team.

    But then again, it was incredibly easy to sweep with Musharna on these teams because they didn't have Absol and Skuntank. So maybe Granbull did his job despite doing nothing but being death fodder.
  8. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Mentor

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    The set you're using is just an inferior Ursaring. You should at least use Intimidate because Ursaring doesn't have it and it's a better ability than Quick Feet on a choiced Pokemon anyways.

    If I would use Granbull, it would probably be some kind of set with Heal Bell / Thunder Wave / Return / Close Combat. That set mixes good qualities from other Normal-types and isn't outclassed by anything.
  9. ium

    ium dein haar riecht gut
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    well, the way you're saying "niche" is actually contradicting with the rest of this statement/the set you proposed. if other physical attackers are superior, then granbull doesn't have a niche in that respect. annoyer's proposed set is a decent example of trying to carve out as much use out of granbull as possible without having it be completely outclassed by something. offensive support with close combat to boot makes granbull stand out with slight differences compared to say miltank or some other normal type. just wanted to clarify. :)

    like other people, i have also tried out the sub bulk up throh set. i don't really have much to say about it other than it's another good pokémon to consider when trying to set up on walls or weak attackers. how this throh differentiates itself from other sub users is that it basically muscles through steel types that may be annoying for sub lickilicky or braviary to set up on, but at the cost of not doing so well against psychic types. so definitely something like skuntank would be an amazing teammate while normal types would appreciate not having to muscle through steels if throh can handle them. and although throh prefers not to be limited by status, it can take advantage of it for some time with guts which i guess is a huge plus.
  10. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~

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    Choice Band Granbull doesn't sound too enticing. Other Normal-type Pokemon, mainly orb abusing ones, outclass Granbull in more than one way (mainly being able to switch moves and not being slow as fuck). So far, I've been trying out the Granbull set I listed in my above post, and it hasn't been doing too great so far.

    It doesn't spread paralysis that well and doesn't have many opportunities to Heal Bell either. It hits pretty hard with Close Combat and Return, but I find myself getting walled by Ghost-types too often, even with Skuntank on the same team. The main use of Granbull, after testing it, is to abuse Intimidate to weaken attacks for its teammates while hitting threats hard with Return and hitting unexpecting Rock-types with Close Combat. Its bulk isn't even that good with Intimidate factored in because it has no resistances/immunities outside of Ghost-type moves which are pretty uncommon in this metagame. I will keep trying to use Granbull to some sort of success, but I will start adding Throh to the roster to benefit from the attack drops Granbull provides for more set-up opportunities against threats such as Absol.
  11. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    This is definitely the best Granbull set out there. I used this set quite a bit at the beginning of BW2 and its actually quite effective. It isn't outclassed by Ursaring because it has the capability to support the team. It isn't outclassed by Miltank because it isn't pathetically weak. i spent a lot of time testing Granbull, and this is the only set I could find(maybe Crunch > Close Combat) that wasn't outclassed.
  12. IceSpade

    IceSpade

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    I've been using Throh in my hazards shuffling team and it does really well at what it is designed to do. Worst nemesis is Musharna and Clear Smog users. Throh is also a good tank as with max HP it can take on things such as Absol and Golurk and with Special Defense investment then weaker attacks won't do much. This is my set:

    Throh @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 4 Atk/ 252 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Circle Throw
    - Payback
    - Bulk Up
    - Pain Split

    Non-ChestoRest Throh. Pain Split is weird for a Pokemon with high HP, but it is really useful when you predict that an attack almost but does not kill you, then you pain split. If you're lucky to receive burn or normal poison then you're going to have a good time.

    I'm going to test Masquerain and possibly Swoobat. The QuiverPass set looks dangerous especially when passed to the right Pokemon.
  13. Originality

    Originality

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    [​IMG]
    Swoobat @ Leftovers
    Trait: Simple
    EVs: 252 Spe / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Substitute
    - Hidden Power Ground/Giga Drain
    - Stored Power


    Swoobat can safely switch into any fighting move due to it's 4x resistance, it especially likes to switch into sawk which is locked into close combat as it can Sub and begin to Calm Mind up whilst gaining massive Special Attack and Special Defence. After one Calm Mind Stored Power has a base power of 100. Swoobat Wants HP Ground as this is it's only option for Steel types, However Giga Drain Can hit Steel/Rock types for Neutral damage whilst recovering health. Swoobat is a highly underrated special sweeper IMO and anything which switches into it will have trouble taking 2 hits after just one Calm Mind.
  14. Ashley11

    Ashley11

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    I'll use granbull. I will edit this later.
  15. Magick

    Magick

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    Using Granbull and Masquerain

    will edit with my thoughts on them

    EDIT:

    Granbull has had mixed results, and I have been trying as many different sets as I could (Banded, Shuffler, SubPunch, Support) and the Sub Punching set has been the most successful for me.

    Masquerain on the other hand, is a monster, I love it. I use a defensive set with Quiver Dance to beef up on the special side and often sweep. I bring it in on a fighting attack or some physical threat who does not carry a Rock move, and set up. I make sure to keep rocks off the field and make an attempt to take out any threats for Masquerain early (Rock/Steel Types, ppl who resist my STABs). I run dual stab over a HP (Ground is a good choice), mostly due to the team I am running Masquerain on and I like the flinch chance from Air Slash.

    My set:

    Masquerain @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Air Slash
    - Roost
  16. The Reptile

    The Reptile mfw
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    Always wanted to try out Throh, so that's going to be fun. Granbull might be interesting, but I can't think of anything it does especially well, and I might try Swoobat and Masquerain later. Will edit this post with thoughts after playing with them.
  17. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    Granbull is indeed pretty limited when it comes to carving a niche for itself. It has Intimidate, decent Hp, not so tragic defense and some support options, so I suppose that a physical support option could work. To this end it carries Reflect, Thunderwave, Super Fang, Roar and Heal Bell. The problem is that the lack of special bulk and its huge attack makes some of this options pretty redundant.
  18. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    Well in terms of physical support Miltank is capable of doing a better job than Grabull. Miltank has access to Heal Bell, Stealth Rock, Milk Drink, Thunder Wave, Body Slam, and Seismic Toss that let it support its team far better than Granbull ever could. Recovery in Milk Drink and access to Stealth Rock being amazing support that any Pokemon would die to have while Miltank can focus on its Defense and have not too shabby Special Defense to go alongside it. (Miltank has 95 HP and 70 SpD while Granbull has 90 HP and 60 SpD) Miltank also holds access to excellent abilities in Scrappy, Thick Fat, and Sap Sipper. Scrappy allows it to work with just STAB in Body Slam, Thick Fat allows it to resist Fire- and Ice-type attacks which helps augment its ability to take common Special Attack, and Sap Sipper which makes Miltank an auxiliary check to Amoonguss and Sawsbuck.

    Like mentioned before, if Granbull wants to compete it has to do so with an awkward mix of support and offense. Annoyer posted the set of Return / Close Combat / Thunder Wave / Heal Bell which is quite possibly the most effective set that Granbull can run as it supports your team while dealing good damage back.

    As for the Research Week, as DTC knows, I have been using Offensive Shuffler Throh alongside SubSalac Swoobat with some Spikes support and it has worked pretty devilishly. With Spikes from Garbodor Throh can start dealing serious damage with Circle Throw while recovering its health and abusing Guts with Rest and Sleep Talk. Once my opponents have been worn down enough by Throh's shuffling I can bring out Swoobat to finish things off with a Simple CM and Stored Power. Both have been really fun Pokemon to try out and I'll probably try to improve the team I'm using them in later down the road. (My team atm is manhandled by Musharna with only setting up CMs with Swoobat being an answer)
  19. Incon

    Incon

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    I know this research week is almost over but there are a few things id like to say about Throh.
    With its massive base 120 HP and 85 defenses, Throh is the bulkiest fighting type in the game. It can perform multiple roles in such as Bulky attacker or Shuffler. After testing during this research week, this has been my favorite Throh set:

    [​IMG]
    Throh @ Leftovers
    Trait: Guts
    Evs: 252 Hp / 4 Atk / 252 SpDef
    Careful Nature
    -Rest
    -Sleep Talk
    -Circle Throw
    -Payback

    This set is great on a Hazard Shuffling team, being extremely bulky and able to semi-reliably recover health. Throh received Sleep Talk from BW2 so he can actually do something when hes asleep and doesnt have to rely on the one time use Chesto Berry. Guts makes it so status really isnt that big of deal granting him an attack boost, while he can just use rest once his health gets low. While it does have to give up Bulk Up for Sleep Talk, it can recover much more reliably. Circle Throw is needed to phaze opponents out and is the sole reason for this set. Payback is so its not completely walled by Ghost types. Spikes support is obvious so I chose Cacturne who offers decent synergy, although sharing a flying weakness. This set is incredibly bulky and extremely had to take down with a super effective move on the opponents side, making it great special wall and shuffler.
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