1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Research Group #8 - Ampharos, Charizard, Basculin, Murkrow

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by DTC, Oct 24, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
    is a Smogon IRC SOPis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,704
    Introduction:
    NU is a tier where many Pokemon are usable, and there are a ton of different options. Research Group aids in helping explore the tier. Who knows, maybe in future tier changes one of these Pokemon can be incredibly useful, potentially being able to check the new threats well. Maybe one of these Pokemon may find uses in other tiers and is not just a simple throw-away Pokemon, unlike some unfortunate Pokemon in NU.

    Some rules:

    • Be open-minded. Don't just say something is terrible and walk away; at least look into them and see what options they may be able to utilize.
    • Feel free to theorymon, but make it clear that you are theorymon'ing. At the end of the week, however, I want discussion to move towards how useful the Pokemon actually are in NU, and what sets are effective on them.
    • Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's quite possible that something might have gone unnoticed or is missing.
    • Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon I choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. I want discussion to stay on topic about the four Pokemon we are "researching". You'll be able to vote on what Pokemon you want the next Research Group right before it starts (out of a ballot that is determined by me)

    The four Pokemon that we will be looking into this Research Group are:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    How useful are these Pokemon in NU? What sets can they run effectively? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon? How well do they work in the metagame? If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning. Remember, discussion is not limited to this topic, you are encouraged to talk about these Pokemon in #neverused/#pokemon as well!

    The Research Week Challenge:

    • Users will use any number of the research week mons on their team
    • Users will attempt to reach as high as possible on the ladder with the Pokemon. Breaking past the 2000 mark on the ladder with your registered alt will earn you a spot on the Hall of Fame: Gold Class. Crossing the 1850 mark will secure you a Silver Class spot while a 1700 rating will earn you a Bronze Class spot. Post a screen-shot of your peak in order to achieve this, and a pastebin of your team.
    • Users will be expected to post their experiences with the Pokemon they use, the teams they used, the problems they encountered while trying to make the said Pokemon work.
    • If a user does not participate in the discussion, he will be passed over.
    In order to participate in the challenge, simply post here with a brand new alt. Post battle logs, experiences with your team on the ladder, and generally how a Pokemon has worked out for you: past or present.

    Research Week Hall of Fame (open)


    Gold Class: 2000+

    Silver Class: 1850-1999

    Bronze Class: 1700-1849



    Please include more substance in your posts than just "in" and what Pokemon you're using. What sets are you planning on using? What interests you about whatever Pokemon you're using? Remember: people who contribute a lot to Research Group will be listed on the hub page as an outstanding contributor for this Research Group.
  2. FLCL

    FLCL
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Salon Maidenis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2010
    Messages:
    2,344
    in, using ampharos and basculin

    planning to use cb basculin and specially defensive ampharos (which dtc loves)

    alt: fooly cooly
  3. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
    is a Smogon IRC SOPis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,704
    Thoughts about the four mons:

    -Ampharos is pretty awesome. I have already used the specially defensive set a lot lately. I will test some offensive sets this Research Group; I haven't used any of those on Amphy in a few weeks.

    -Charizard is also awesome. Swords Dance was surprisingly effective when I used it, although a tad weak when Flying Gem was used up. Sunny Day Solar Power Charizard is amazing in tandem with other sun sweepers like Exeggutor. I have not used SubRoost in a while, so I'll use that.

    -Basculin is a Pokemon I have not used in a very long time. It has Superpower now which is pretty sweet. Zen Headbutt probably does quite a bit to Amoonguss, although I don't know if it will be enough. I personally want to test out Life Orb Basculin.

    -Murkrow is a Pokemon I have not utilized much at all. It has been pretty mediocre whenever I fought it, but it's a pretty interesting Pokemon with a ton of awesome move options.
  4. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    NU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    3,658
    wooo Ampharos. I'm a huge fan of more offensive variants. I like Agility and Specs sets, I've used them to great effect. I might try out some more defensive sets though, as thats where Amphy's main niche is.
  5. Tofu

    Tofu

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Messages:
    29
    In.
    Using Basculin, Murkrow and possibly amhp as i only ever tried specs on him and wouldn't mind exploring other options
  6. EonADS

    EonADS

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Messages:
    490
    In, using Ampharos. Might also throw on Basculin if I get bored.
  7. Steamroll

    Steamroll Tasty
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,345
    Ampharos: Great utility mon, possesses just the right stats and movepool to remain unpredictable for the first encounter. So far in my battling experience I've witnessed Life Orb, Specs, Pivot, Defensive, Agility, and the one on the main site. Always good to be unpredictable!

    Charizard: The true "Risk reeps Reward" Pokemon. Hard as hell to get in, hard as hell to stay in, hard as hell to set-up, but pays off beautifully when done properly.

    Basculin: I'm very shocked I haven't seen this little piranha more. Base 98 Speed is great in NU. Base 92 Attack isn't anything to scoff at either, especially with Adaptability and a Choice Band. It's definitely an underrated mon with that Base 80 power Aqua Jet and base 160 Waterfall. If only it got more moves, the only notable non-Water or Normal type moves are Crunch and Superpower which doesn't really KO anything worthwhile that isn't already ass-raped by Waterfall.

    Murkrow: Very underwhelming mon once you figure out exactly what the hell it's doing. Priority is its worst nightmare, especially from faster mons.
  8. EonADS

    EonADS

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Messages:
    490
    So I started laddering about an hour and a half ago with Specs Ampharos thrown onto a recent team in place of the standard bulky Eelektross. I expected a modest improvement because of the better power, but more issues with the speed. I got a massive improvement and few speed issues. The biggest coup is, as Steamroll mentioned, that Ampharos is tough to predict; most people are predicting my Ampharos as a support set for my sweepers and end up getting smacked hard by Volt Switch or Thunderbolt. Also, I've found that it's literally capable of 2HKOing everything except Regice and Musharna with the correct move (though Regice falls to Focus Blast after SR iirc, and even Thunderbolt is a hard pill for it to swallow). Max/Max Lickylicky is almost always 2HKO'd after SR, so I'm set there as well. If it were, say, Base 80 Speed, it'd probably be UU without a problem.

    I'd like to try pairing it with SD Samurott and see how well it does, but eh. That'll have to wait for tomorrow... or later today, rather.
  9. Wobble

    Wobble

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    73
    Specs Ampharos is extremely inconsistent, but effective.


    Zard should have Acrobatics...I'll talk to Zarel about it and try a set.
  10. Bluwing

    Bluwing

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2012
    Messages:
    715
    In !
    Alt: Muramphaulin
    Ill use Murkrow and Ampharos as they have decent synergy, also gpnna try basculin. Im not gonna use Charizard as it needs Armaldo and a good water resist to work good. :-P

    Post number 100 ! :-)
  11. citro

    citro

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2012
    Messages:
    119
    Yessss, i'm in.

    Going to use the don, aka Murkrow. I like this poke and think it's pretty underused, might try an offensive set since everyone expects the slightly trolly prankster one. It has a pretty nice movepool too.
  12. nyttyn

    nyttyn Neko Miko Reimu, ai shiteru
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    961
    In, time to see what Basculin can do with a team devoted to it. Adaptability waterfall attacks seem promising.

    Alt: Soul Fisherman

    Edit: HOLY SHIT so far this thing is breaking everything over one fin. It's hilarious really.

    Are we using ACRE or Glicko2?
  13. col49

    col49 mi amor
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1,092
    I'll try out bird, fish, and mouse, since I can never get lizard to work for me :[

    Alt: bird+fish+mouse


    Dun goofed a bit, not feeling this and that, gonna just go with bird :(
    alt: just bird
  14. EonADS

    EonADS

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Messages:
    490
    Laddering under the alt Her Voice Resides, already at #45 with 1741 ACRE. I guess now would be a good time to post some early findings.

    First off, I was definitely overzealous in my praise of Specs Ampharos; it's good, but honestly unless you have the prediction skills of a Seer, you're better off with Eelektross. It's also ungodly slow and not as bulky as you'd think given its stats. Tbh, I'd always prefer Eelektross or Rotom-S over Specs Amphy because of their better resistances / immunities

    On the other hand, Specially Defensive Ampharos is awesome. I've always had issues with Shell Shell Smash Gorebyss and with Rain abusers like Ludicolo. Ampharos is a great check for both; it's also aces when it comes to spreading status with Discharge and Toxic. I ran HP Ice over Heal Bell because of Amoonguss and Golurk (Golem is annoying too, but I typically end up taking them out early with Cinccino or Samurott) and because most of my team doesn't mind certain statuses as much. I'm going to modify the EV spread a bit and see what I can do with it, but for now it's pretty standard.

    Now a few problems I've noticed. If your opponent is running a Ground-type, Volt Switch doesn't help you much until you can get rid of it, which typically happens late game. By that point, Volt Switch doesn't help you much. Second, the lack of recovery is painful and annoying, and more or less forces Ampharos to do its best work during either early or late game. You can play around with it mid-game, but it's not going to do much unless you play very well. Finally, Ampharos really has to choose between bulk and striking power. Minimum investment hits like a feather duster, but with plenty of tanking ability. Max investment hits like a mac truck loaded with bricks, but it doesn't take hits well. I want to eventually modify the EV spread to see if I can't mitigate that, but I need more testing time and to do some calcs.

    Anybody want to give a RestTalk set a whirl? Something like...

    Ampharos @ Leftovers
    Nature: Calm
    EVs: 252 Hp / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
    Ability: Static
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Discharge
    - HP Ice

    Or something. It'd solve the recovery problem, give you a way to block Amoonguss, and let you absorb status if necessary. There's probably a better EV spread out there somewhere, but eh.
  15. Kierany9

    Kierany9

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    53
    In.
    Using Ampharos(Specially offensive+Physically defensive), Murkrow(Status) and Basculin(Physically offensive)
    Alt: SupermanTheThird
  16. MarshallLeRoy

    MarshallLeRoy

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2011
    Messages:
    60
    This is tempting! Might have to give Ampharos another go, I'll edit if I am.

    Also, Basculin might be fun to see if there's any real advantage or niche over Samurott.

    Edit: in as Amphia. going to test Ampharos mainly, but adaptability Basculin is also making an appearance
  17. Majestic Electric

    Majestic Electric

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2012
    Messages:
    228
    So in! Basculin is the most interesting option imo, so I'm using him. I'm going to experiment with a Choice Specs set. Base 80 is pretty good in NU. Will also try out Choice Band.

    Alt: Fish n Chips
  18. nyttyn

    nyttyn Neko Miko Reimu, ai shiteru
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    961
    So far, thoughts on Murkrow:

    It simply lacks the Oomph to do anything.

    It doesn't have the durability or recovery required to run a effective support set. It doesn't have the damage to pull off a life orb attacker set, which mind you loses out on Eviolite durability. And eviolite durability sets lose out on the damage brought out by Life Orb.

    It simply does not have the base stats or movepool to work. It's also SR weak to put the final nail in the coffin, in a tier where stealth rock is very hard to remove without gimping your team in some way.
  19. EonADS

    EonADS

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Messages:
    490
    So I took a second look at Basculin when my Ampharos team started going downhill, and I was frankly shocked at what I found. CB Adamant Basculin with Aqua Tail OHKOs all non-Sturdy SR leads save Regirock. Standard 252 HP Piloswine takes a clean OHKO, and Max/Max Impish Armaldo also falls to it cleanly, no Stealth Rock necessary for either. Aqua Tail also nabs a clean 2HKO on Misdreavus and just manages a 2HKO on 240/252 Musharna after Stealth Rock or Spikes.

    Really thinking of doing an entirely new team with Basculin. I really underestimated that thing. Are we allowed to ladder with different alts for different Pokemon? If not, I'll just do it for the information rather than the accolades.

    EDIT: Thank you Incon. Laddering under the alt Begging for Mercy for Basculin. I've also found that, unless your opponent runs Regirock or Gigalith, you can stop all SR leads between Basculin and Fraxure.
  20. kniteowl

    kniteowl

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2010
    Messages:
    342
    Probably best to run heal bell on a SpD rest talk set, or else you're better off using Skunfish which also get's scald to spread burns.

    Heal bell also make rest talk recovery semi-reliable as you have a 33% chance for sleep talk to pick heal bell allowing you to wake up early, you obviously get walled by a lot of things because of your single attack but it should do it's job as a SpD wall.
  21. Incon

    Incon

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    298
    Yes, you can ladder on different alts.

    I'll be joining the fun too. Have always wanted to try Murkow, so id say now's a good time. I really want to try the Nasty Plot set that Django originally posted somewhere on the forums that i cant seem to find. :P I also want to test out the Mean Look Perish Song set. Always seem to have to trouble with that and it surprises me with its bulk.

    Like most people have mentioned, Basculin is a lot stronger than previously thought. EonAds posted great statistics about how strong CB Basculin is, and when boosted with Adaptability, it hits so freaking hard. Ill most likely try him too using a CB or LO set.

    Alt: I Like Folk
  22. Awmgnoob

    Awmgnoob

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2009
    Messages:
    48
    Basculin
    Alt: BIG SNOOP DOG
  23. Machineae

    Machineae

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2011
    Messages:
    130
    I've used Bassculin plenty in the past and have had mixed success with it. Before Alomoongus was popular it was a pretty strong wallbreaker. At the time, Superpower wasn't available (afaik), I ran Waterfall, Aqua Jet, DE and Crunch. It always did heavy damage but thats it really. It did damage then died. A set with Aqua Jet, Waterfall, Superpower and Crunch/Zen Headbutt should be pretty good in this meta, the only let down is its below average defenses. With the proper before-hand preparations it shouldn't be taking any hits however.
  24. Wobble

    Wobble

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    73
    Ampharos isn't really checking Ludicolo.

    It has a small chance of being 2HKO'd after SR even without rain up. With Rain it's obliterated.

    Sure you can switch it in after Ludicolo destroys something but it's not doing you any good for momentum....especially since he's probably just going to switch out to something to take the obvious Toxic.
  25. WillSO

    WillSO

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    100
    For anyone trying Murkrow, why not try using an offensive version?
    It has stats that allow it to attack on both sides of the spectrum adequately and has a good movepool too.

    Murkrow (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Insomnia
    EVs: 4 Def/252 Spd/252 SpAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd,-Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Dark Pulse
    - Hidden Power [Flying]
    - Roost
    ---
    Simple Calm Mind with dual STAB coverage. Not ideal, but usable.

    Murkrow (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Insomnia
    EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd/4 SpAtk
    Hasty nature (+Spd,-Def)
    - Brave Bird
    - Heat Wave
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Sucker Punch
    ---

    A nice mixed attacking set.

    Murkrow (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Insomnia
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd,-SpAtk)
    - Brave Bird
    - Roost
    - Substitute
    - Sucker Punch
    ---

    Think SubKrow without Moxie.

    Insomnia is interesting as it allows Murkrow to switch in on Amoonguss' Spore and start to attack. I've not run any calcs, but I'd imagine Brave Bird hits it hard enough, likewise with Heat Wave.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)