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Research Group #8 - Ampharos, Charizard, Basculin, Murkrow

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by DTC, Oct 24, 2012.

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  1. Wobble

    Wobble

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    TobiasNoob I'll be using Specs Zard.

    I'll be using physical variants of Zard.

    Perhaps mixed on another alt....SaibotBoon perhaps.
  2. shnen

    shnen שוני
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    I'm using zard on the alt Darlene, androgynous as I am

    I have 1703 but my provisional is 154, do I still get bronze
  3. EonADS

    EonADS

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    Ok... I went in, did my best, and Ampharos wasn't all that I expected. Time to post my final thoughts.

    My peak on the alt Her Voice Resides was 1781 ACRE, #29. I'll edit this with the screenshot and pastebin once I get back from class, but for now...

    EDIT: nvm, class canceled. Just gave me more time.

    Pastebin: http://pastebin.com/6jNGzvga
    Screenshot (open)
    [​IMG]


    I tried a total of four sets. Specs, Offensive with Lefties, SpD, and Agility. I'll post my individual experiences with each.

    Specs: Hits like a mac truck filled to the brim with bricks, but it's hampered by its lack of bulk comparative to other Ampharos sets and it really lacks the utility needed to make proper use of it. Heavy prediction is required to use it at anywhere near its full potential, and unless you have the gift of foresight you're better off using Eelektross and its better coverage. Overall, a disappointment, but the potential for use is there.

    Offensive with Leftovers: This set compares about equally to the similar Eelektross set, trading Levitate and better coverage for bulk and power. Good for playing around opponents with Volt Switch and really points and laughs at most teams without a Ground-type. Really, I prefer Eelektross because of Levitate and the ability to heal with Giga Drain, but Ampharos still managed to hold its own because most people will expect Leftovers sets to be defensive.

    Agility: Irksome to set up, but if you get the opportunity it rips most teams to shreds. Best used as a late-game sweeper, especially if your opponent has a Ground-type. Wartortle is actually a good Agility Ampharos partner because it appreciates the removal of hazards. Plus, some people use Golurk as their Spin Blocker and their Ground-type, making Wartortle doubly effective because it gets an assured Spin thanks to Foresight and hits Golurk for SE. Granted, Wartortle is weak, but SE Scald still hurts, especially if it burns. It also pairs well with SD Sawsbuck, which is good at tearing into the opposing team so it’s weak enough for Ampharos to finish off and keeps Amoonguss off Wartortle’s back. The main problem is getting the opposing team into position for Ampharos to finish it off. Make one mistake, and Amphy is done. Without investment, it's actually somewhat frail and fairly easy to pick off if your opponent has powerful priority or faster Scarfers (Rotom-F/S and faster).

    Specially Defensive: This is the set that got me to my peak. Specially Defensive Ampharos is a wonderful support Pokemon and with the right combination of moves, it does great work. Best used to bog down the opposing team with status and to hurt Pokemon like Altaria and Miltank when they switch in to try and get rid of it or absorb it. I tried many combinations of moves, but I found that Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Toxic/Thunder Wave was the most effective. Volt Switch really didn't help against teams with a Ground-type unless I could get rid of it post-haste; I was better off poisoning it or hitting it with HP Ice. I tried Focus Blast over HP Ice, and if it's accuracy didn't suck I would've used it instead. Thunder Wave and T-Bolt replaced Volt Switch and Discharge early on because I had too many mishaps where I paralyzed something I should've Toxic'd (or was unable to paralyze something when I needed to) and the extra oomph that Thunderbolt was packing helped with wearing down common Ampharos switch-ins. Heal Bell was good, but not really necessary as I had no major problems with Status other than Sleep, which Heal Bell doesn't do much more than mitigate because Amoonguss will always be there to use it again. I had a few problems with the trade-off between power and bulk, and eventually decided on using an old Gen 4 spread with a Modest nature to compensate; it was functional rather than elegant, but it got the job done. Overall, this is the best Ampharos variant I used, and it really contributed to the team.

    That's all for now. Once I finish gathering my findings on Basculin, I'll be back. Cheers.
  4. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    Trying Basculin and Ampharos together. The two seem to make a decent RD abuser and supporter together.

    Alt: Gajo
  5. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
    is a Smogon IRC SOPis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
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    Great job EonADS! Interesting results. I have one question for you, though: why would you be better off using Choice Specs Eelektross because of prediction? I can understand other reasons to use Choice Specs Eelektross over Ampharos, but not the main one you provided. Ampharos actually requires less prediction because it has better Special Attack to just spam Electric-type attacks and its coverage is not as good as Eelektross's.
  6. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    Show Hide
    [​IMG]


    My team: http://pastebin.com/UJk82NaV

    I tested two sets for Ampharos and three sets for Basculin. Both on the same team (A Rain team)

    The first set I tried for Ampharos is an offensive Rain Dancer. It had RD / Thunder / Volt Switch / HP Ice with Damp Rock and the the Tank set spread (208 HP / 252 SpA / 48 Spe with a Modest Nature). The reason of using this kind of Ampharos instead of Electabuzz / Electrode / Zebstrika for Rain Teams is both its power (115 SpA against Electabuzz's base 95 and Electrode's and Zebstrika's base 80) and its ability to take hits. A slow Volt Switch is also an advantage, bringing a rain sweeper almost intact to the field ready for the next turn. The fast Volt Switch of the other Electric-types may let the sweeper badly damaged if the opponent manages to predict right. The second set and my favorite is a specially defensive Rain Dancer with RD / Toxic / Heal Bell / Volt Switch and the spread of the Specially Defensive set (252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpDef with a Calm Nature). This is one of the best pokemon to set up Rain Dance in the entire NU tier, and the main reason is Heal Bell. Things like Miltank and Audino like to spread paralysis, while Weezing and Misdreavus love to burn. Toxic is also a nuisance to any team. All of those status especially paralysis can cripple a Rain Team. A slow Volt Switch was already explained above, and I picked Toxic over any other HP or Focus Blast because all other members of my team have ways to deal with Ground-types and to a lesser extent Motor Drive / LightningRod pokemon, and because Focus Blast wouldn't help against anything since I'm not going offensive.

    As for Basculin (NEVER USE CRUNCH), that thing is a fearsome demon. I tried Choice Band first and under Rain, Adaptability CB Waterfall is stopped only by a few handful extremely bulky pokemon that either resist or are immune to Water, everything else is 1-2HKOed (the high flinch chance helps a lot). However, Water isn't exactly the strongest type in NU with Alomomoonguss and Ludicolo everywhere, and locking Basculin into a Water-type move is a big opportunity for the foe. Then I tried Life Orb. It doesn't hit as hard, but it enjoys the freedom more than the choice IMO. The recoil isn't that nice and it can be worn down easily, but if Basculin doesn't kill he will be killed. I then wanted to use it as a lure and gave it a Splash Plate (even less hard). I like this set because opponent WILL think Basculin is choiced in one of its moves (mainly in Waterfall, because it'll be using that 90% of the time unless opponent resists or is immune). Most of times Basculin KOes something, then opponent brings something faster and frail thinking it'll revenge kill the piranha, which isn't true for most cases. I may try Mixed Life Orb later because Basculin attracts too many things weak to Ice, and according to some calculus Ice Beam 2HKOes physically defensive Amoonguss (after rocks) and Tangela.

    Here are the sets I'm currently using:

    Basculin @ Splash Plate (testing, although LO is more effective)
    Trait: Adaptability
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Waterfall
    - Aqua Jet
    - Superpower
    - Double-Edge (As Crunch is only for Exeggutor, Frillish and Shedinja, and Basculin won't OHKO them bar the latter anyway)

    Ampharos @ Damp Rock
    Trait: Static
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Heal Bell
    - Volt Switch
    - Rain Dance
    - Toxic
  7. EonADS

    EonADS

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    Looking back, I can see that I didn't explain myself very well, so I'll remedy that here.

    Choice Specs Ampharos is powerful, but it's slow as paste, not as bulky as one would like, and its typing (and lack of a decent ability) affords it precious few switch-in opportunities. Because of this, when you use Specs Ampharos, you really have to pick your shots and make sure to learn the opponent's reaction patterns first. This is especially true if your opponent has a Ground-type or a Lightningrod Pokemon like Raichu or Zebstrika. Furthermore, in contrast to Eelektross, Ampharos has no way to keep itself healthy despite its slightly greater bulk and it racks up damage from Spikes whenever it switches in. This means that Ampharos is very easy to wear down, so you can't mindlessly spam attacks because that means continuing to switch in and out and rack up hazards damage whenever your opponent predicts your move. Essentially, Specs Ampharos is relegated being used as a way to lure and damage common switch-ins unless you back it up with a lot of support or are a god of prediction.

    While I'm here, I might as well post my information on Basculin.

    I haven't made it past 1700 with my Basculin team yet (mainly because I lazily designed it in five minutes), but I learned quite a bit about Basculin itself. Scratch that, just made it to 1705 on the same alt. Took me long enough. I'll post it later.

    EDIT: After far too long...:
    Pastebin: http://pastebin.com/UBXBMrmV
    Screenshot (open)
    [​IMG]


    Choice Band: This thing is monstrously powerful, capable of landing an OHKO on Max/Max Armaldo and Max HP Eviolite Piloswine with Adamant Adaptability Aqua Tail. In this case, I ended up preferring Aqua Tail > Waterfall despite a few accuracy issues, the extra power more than makes up for it. Water Absorbers, particularly Lapras and Seismitoad, are problematic, though if you can predict them you can deal hefty damage if not an outright KO with Superpower. Also, the Don is correct; do not ever use Crunch. Ever. It's not worth it. Also, Alomomoonguss absolutely must be removed before you bring in Basculin, or you'll just put yourself in a bad spot. The lack of ability to switch moves is the most irksome thing about it; you have to support it really well if you want to use it right. Paralysis support, the removal or severe weakening of Scarfers, and Entry Hazards are all a massive help. I used the standard set with Aqua Tail/Aqua Jet/Return/Superpower.

    Choice Scarf: This set is tremendous fun, and very unexpected. I used this set:

    Basculin-B @ Choice Scarf
    Nature: Jolly
    EVs: 96 Hp / 252 Atk / 160 Spe
    Ability: Adaptability
    - Waterfall
    - Superpower
    - Return / Zen Headbutt
    - Final Gambit

    160 EVs outpaces Timid Scarf Rotom and +2 Timid Gorebyss, as well as all base 85 Scarfers like Sawk and Pinsir. The lack of Aqua Jet is sometimes annoying, but Basculin makes up for it with both the surprise value and a surprisingly powerful Waterfall. Final Gambit isn't the best choice, but it's certainly not the worst and it helps if you really need something gone (at max health, it does 305 HP of damage, which isn't horrible). Zen Headbutt was for Amoonguss, but I found that I was better off just bringing in a Sap Sipper or Insomnia/Vital Spirit 'mon. Its always fun to beat cocky Scarf Sawk users who are expecting Aqua Jet and think that they can survive at -1, or knock out a weakened Scarf Rotom-S with Waterfall. It's also really funny when your opponent brings in their Amoonguss or Exeggutor expecting to counter you and you blast it with a Final Gambit. It is lacking in power though, and it's a revenge killer only, so don't expect to blast holes in teams with it. Overall, not the best set, but good if you're up for some fun.

    Life Orb: Hands down, this is the best set. I should've paired this with Ampharos and seen how well I could do, but eh. Anyway, Life Orb Basculin isn't quite as powerful as Choice Band (Aqua Tail can no longer KO many of its targets), but it makes up for it with the freedom to switch moves and bring down opposing Pokemon with the 1-2 punch of Waterfall and Aqua Jet. A great late-game cleaner, it works really well with a combination of paralysis support and a weakened opposing team. Entry hazards are paramount for the little fish, so Cacturne and Piloswine are two of your best bets. It is extremely frail though, so don't even try taking any attacks with it if you don't absolutely have to. Also, Water Absorbers and Cradily must be removed beforehand.

    Also, not to burst your bubble Don, but...

    24 SpA Naive Life Orb Basculin Ice Beam vs. 252/0 Amoonguss = 42.6% - 50.5%

    ...so you need both SR and Spikes to assure the 2HKO. Furthermore, if you want to assure it with just SR (because Leftovers sucks) you have to run enough that you would fail to outspeed +Natured Base 85's (if Naive, if Rash, you can't do that anyway). It does manage to cleanly 2HKO Tangela though.

    Basculin-B @ Life Orb
    Nature: Naive
    EVs: 252 Atk / 24 SpA / 232 Spe
    Ability: Adaptability
    - Waterfall
    - Aqua Jet
    - Superpower
    - Ice Beam

    This is the set I used.

    And that's it.
  8. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
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    lol late but in
    Using Dual Screens Ampharos
    I already have about 14 battles so far and am somewhere in the low 1800s iirc
    Alt: immortal soldeir

    I really like Dual Screens Ampharos. It sets up them up pretty reliably throughout the match. One thing I've changed is Hidden Power Ice over Heal Bell since Ground-types kinda shit on my team so I can do some damage to them. A slow Volt Switch is amazing so I can get one of my sweepers in safely. I just wish Ampharos could have a bit better bulk since it's not the best in the world when it comes to taking hits. Oh also I choke a lot =(
  9. Kierany9

    Kierany9

    Joined:
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    Thought I might as well get this over with. These Pokemon do excellent on a rain team

    [​IMG]Basculin (M) @ Muscle Band
    Trait: Adaptability
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Aqua Jet
    - Waterfall
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Swagger

    Basculin does pretty well at what it's supposed to do: Hit hard and hit fast. Sure, it's frail but it can kill faster than anything that can actually beat it. In the rain it is a monster with STAB Waterfall. It makes for an excellent revenge killer with Aqua Jet. Zen Headbutt can hit quite hard on Amoongus and Swagger is a personal preference.

    [​IMG]Ampharos (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Static
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 HP / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Thunder/Thunderbolt
    - Focus Blast/HP Ice
    - Cotton Guard
    - Heal Bell

    To attack or not to attack, that is the question. On that note, Mixed Ampharos kicks butt. With Rain Dance Thunder, it can deal heavy damage with pinpoint accuracy. If it runs Focus Blast, Golurk and Amoongus pretty much screw it over, but it is much more efficient than HP Ice. If you can get a free turn, Cotton Guard can save your behind from Earthquakes. Heal bell is always useful.

    [​IMG]Murkrow (M) @ Damp Rock/Flying Gem
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Taunt
    - Thunder Wave
    - Rain Dance/Sucker Punch
    - Brave Bird

    Murkrow has one set and one set only. To taunt, thunder wave and set up weather. Murkrow can also screw over Amoongus with an unexpected Brave Bird. Making Ninjask users ragequit is his game. While it isn't that great, it can support any team like a boss.

    I'm relatively new to competitive battling, so my ladder peak was quite low(1300-1400). These Pokemon are truly strong.
  10. ium

    ium dein haar riecht gut
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris an Artist Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
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    the issue with murkrow is that its attacking stats are fairly weak and it needs to find a way to boost in order to start hitting things for decent damage. however with its frailty, it's not really going to find the opportunity to do that so i find that an all-out offensive murkrow is rather subpar.

    this is the murkrow set that i randomly tested on a BIRD TEAM KACAW:

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Murkrow @ Eviolite
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Roost
    - Dark Pulse
    - Calm Mind
    - FeatherDance

    this is the set that dingle used for the underdog challenge i believe, and it's actually really good. he already summed it up in an old post, but i'll just reiterate using my experiences. this murkrow is extremely hard to stop given the right circumstances because it can stop the most feared physical attackers by getting several featherdances off. it can't switch into them, but it will be able to stop them if it gets the chance to set up. it beats weak special attackers and things like musharna by boosting alongside them with calm mind. it can stop absol, shelgon, altaria, and many others if it weakens their boosts with featherdance. it even catches things like emboar off guard if it's at -2 and is locked into something like wild charge.

    however, for its success it actually needs a lot of team support. murkrow can't do anything at all to status-inducers, so it needs something to deal with the likes of alomomola. it also loses to bastiodon, so having something to deal with that would be nice too. substitute + bulk up throh is able to handle both of these nicely; i haven't used it on the same team as murkrow, but i did test it before and it's not bad.

    i may test murkrow on an actual team that can support it, but it was actually good as a standalone pokémon and actually put me in favorable positions in a few matches, haha.

    [​IMG]

    i can vouch for this. i used it in a few matches and the screens that it reliably provides is really clutch. i didn't really test it that much though but it was cool.
  11. Tofu

    Tofu

    Joined:
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    @ Ium
    Used almost the same set.

    Only experimented with Murkrow so far, no ladder achievements because i still suck at battling but had alot of fun testing this set.
    [​IMG]
    Murkrow (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - FeatherDance
    - Roost
    - Dark Pulse

    Main Issues While testing Murkrow i came across a few things that can hamper or put a complete stop to this set. Physical attackers carrying substitute are an issue as Feather Dance does not hit through it. Opposing taunters obviously shutdown Murkrow. Additionally toxic is an annoyance and stops Murkrow from functioning as intended, carrying a cleric can relieve this. Carrying Taunt on Murkrow solves most of these issues but there just is not space for it, i did test running taunt over roost but Murkrow really misses the recovery and i found in 3/4 scenarios roost was the preferable option.

    EV Spread Speed ev's ensures Murkrow outspeeds max invested + spe 55's (golurk) and min/low invested pokes in similar speed bracket. Hp means he can switch into SR 4 times instead of 3 and the rest is put into defense.

    Conclusion Really surprised how well this mon functioned. Sets up easily in the face of a majority of NU offensive threats while receiving little damage from anything not SE (Completely walls absol). While it can take hits really well once it's on the field switching murkrow in can be an issue, either need to be careful with prediction or even carry a slow volt switcher or turner. This particular set forces alot of switches and stalls well, so field hazards and status infectors really take advantage of this. With a little support from it's teammates Murkrow can be a great asset to many teams.

    Alt: Le Chevalier
  12. Amarillo

    Amarillo
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    Used Ampharos in a quick 5-minute quirky stall team, quick silver class obtained!

    Stall is really hard to use against standard teams just because of Sub / Bulk Up Braviary. It's really the bulky set-upper. It also happens to break stall like paper unless you dedicate a whole teamslot to it. If you want a bulky setup mon, you either use Braviary, or you use Calm Minding Psychic-type. And Braviary is far harder to counter, IMO. I feel that in that sense, bulky Electric-types have a great niche on defensive teams (especially all those teams that utilize Alomomola and all other great setup bait) for checking this otherwise massive threat. Checking Choice Scarf Electrics is a bonus, and having Heal Bell is a cherry on top.

    But wait, there's more! Thunderbolt provides a legitimate offensive option on a defensive team, especially if you are used to the sissy powers of Scald Alomomola and other heinously weak walls. You actually have an option to break a dedicated physical wall 1v1 if their intention is to lounge around and have fun with Toxic. If you catch a Scarf Electric using anything other than Volt Switch, you wall them. They need to switch out. Something gets hit hard by Thunderbolt. Ampharos is a happy mon.

    Thunderbolt / HP Ice / Thunder Wave / Heal Bell is what I've been using so far. Not exactly an ideal setup, perhaps. I've also been using specially defensive EV spread primarily, but dropped in some random EVs on defense to better check Braviary. As mentioned, I paired it with Alomomola for the massive regeneration.

    Probably will add on later - I need to stop procrastinating lol.


    Also been using SD Charizard without really noticing that it was a RW mon. Its Acrobatics is powerful, and +4 Acrobat really murders things that you think would beat physical Charizard. Earthquake, on the other hand, is way too weak... I've used Flame Charge as my last move because Zard's main coverage on that set is Flying / Ground, which covers all but Rotom formes (which outspeed anyways with the most common scarf set) and Eelektross (which can be troublesome). Not really sure if it's worth the moveslot, though. I've never got a chance to really sweep with that speed boost.
  13. Louiss

    Louiss

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    edit: consider this post as unposted, i have too little time to test. (mods can delete this if they want to)
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