Research Group Mk. II #4 - Klinklang, Weavile, Cinccino

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by Nas, Aug 28, 2012.

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  1. Nas

    Nas you know my steez
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    Welcome, UUers! It's time for a fresh installment of Research Group!

    Past Research Group Mk I threads:

    #1 | #2 | #3 | #4 | #5 | #6


    Past Research Group Mk II threads:

    #1 | #2 | #3


    Keep the following things in mind during every Research Group:

    • Be open-minded, don't just say something is terrible and walk away; look at its stats, movepool, and typing and think something up!
    • Feel free to theorymon early in the research period, but make it clear you're doing so. Later in the period though, you will be expected to back up your posts with hard evidence like logs, actual sets, perhaps even teams.
    • Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's very likely that something has gone unnoticed.
    • Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon I choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. Feel free to VM / PM me these suggestions, but don't expect me to always listen to you.

    This Week's Research Pokemon:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Klinklang | Weavile | Cinccino


    How useful are these Pokemon in UU? What sets can they run effectively? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon? How well do they work in the metagame? If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning. Remember, discussion is not limited to this topic, you are encouraged to talk about these Pokemon in #genvuu as well!

    The Research Group Challenge:

    In order to participate you must do the following:

    • Send me a PM / post here or on IRC with a fresh alt and the name(s) of the Pokemon you will be using.
    • Use at least one of the Pokemon being researched.
    • Post your experiences with the Pokemon you're using, participate in the discussion!

    The first stage of the challenge will be very relaxed so theorymon will be allowed as long as its backed up by good reasoning. During the later stage, discussion will be expected to be backed up by hard evidence, such as teams, actual sets, and logs. The winner of the challenge will be the person who has the highest ladder ranking on the Pokemon Showdown UU ladder on the alt they registered at the time the challenge ends. If you win, you will receive temporary hops on #genvuu, but you may only claim your prize if you actually participated in the discussion!

    Current Participants:

    Forum Name - Ladder Alt

    Silvershadow234 - Silvershadow
    Cherub Agent - Smallville
    Rawbi - Isaac's Head
    NGC-2024 - VV Cephei
    Flareblitz - FlareVille
    AlexanderTheGreat - Raikou
    Chimera404 - ChimeraRX
    Neto-Senpai - NS2
    Diatom - R136a1
    TP03 - KingofHax
    RoryReloaded - Misao
    Demist - Raizer
    Detroitlolcat - Sir Cattington
  2. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
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    In with Klingklang
    My Showdown! still isn't working so I'll just be testing these sets on PO.
    Alt: Silvershadow
  3. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
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    Definetly using Weavile, mabye also one of the others.
    My PS! also doesn't work, at least on the main server, so I'll be battling on the Kupo server.
    Alt: Smallville
  4. Rawbi

    Rawbi

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    Not sure if this is the most appropriate exercise for someone attempting to get into the UU metagame, but it'll sure give me practice!

    I will likely attempt to use all three Pokemon.

    Alt: Isaac's Head
  5. NGC-2024

    NGC-2024

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    I'm going to counter-research the effectiveness of Mach Punch.
    But anyway, I'll probably just use Weavile and Klinklang on VV Cephei
  6. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Alt: FlareVille

    Using Weavile, because I already used Klinklang and Cincinno before you posers~
  7. AlexanderTheGreat

    AlexanderTheGreat

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    In :D
    Alt: Raikou
    Pokémon: Weavile
  8. Chimera404

    Chimera404

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    I'll participate.
    Alt: ChimeraRX
    I'll be playing with Weavile for sure, maybe Klinklang.
  9. Neto-senpai

    Neto-senpai

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    I'll give it a try

    alt: NS2
    will be using Klinklang
  10. Chimera404

    Chimera404

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    I assume since it's just beginning I can theorymon and discuss my experiences?

    Well, Klinklang is nothing special. It's got enough bulk to take a hit, but even after a Shift Gear, it doesn't hit very hard. I ev'd mine to outspeed base 100 positive nature scarfers (Flygon, anyone?) after a single boost by giving it 248 speed, threw in 252 into attack with an Adamant nature, and the rest in bulk. The main problems I'm facing in using it is the fact that I cannot 1hko anything, meaning that they have to take some prior damage or I have to boost more than once. If Shift Gear was a +2 Atk +1 Spe, it would be so much better.

    Immunity to Toxic, but not Will-o-Wisp, as well as resistance to SR, give it a good chance to get in and maybe act as a tank, but it doesn't have the statpool. Its best chance, I find, is to swap into an Outrage-locked dragon and boost as many times as possible, then go for a sweep.

    Plus and Minus are horrible abilities, so Clear Body prevents intimidate, which is nice.

    I'm having a really hard time giving it an item. Air Balloon neuters Flygon, who is handily 2hko'd after a single boost. Leftovers has worked in my advantage more than once, giving me an extra boost to sweep harder. Life Orb gives me a lot more power, giving me a good chance to 1hko Flygon after 2 boosts. Each has their drawbacks.

    My set looks like this:
    Klinklang @ Leftovers/Life Orb/Air Balloon
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 128 HP / 128 Spd / 252 Atk
    Adamant Nature
    - Gear Grind
    - Shift Gear
    - Wild Charge
    - Return

    On the other hand, Weavile is boss. He's staying on my team after the Research Week. He's got incredible speed, and his obscene attack can be boosted to ludicrous levels by using a Swords Dance. He hits like a freight train with antimatter boosters after a boost or two and can easily sweep a team, or break a few walls before he goes down. I find that his LO set is overrated. You need the boosting ability and definitely need to be able to revenge kill, which is accomplished most effectively by Focus Sash. Ice Shard gives you priority to wreck things that can outspeed you; Ice Punch and Night Slash are powerful STAB moves that give decent coverage. Low Kick is an option, I think, for hitting steels, but I value my priority over coverage. He can't take a hit and gets countered pretty hard by Intimidate Arcanine if his sash is broken, but if you use him to take any hit besides an Outrage to revenge kill (or, incidentally, an obvious psychic attack), then you're using him very, very wrong.

    Set:
    Weavile @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Night Slash
    - Ice Shard
    - Ice Punch

    Comments anybody?
  11. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
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    Klinklang is actually pretty good. By pairing him up with Gothitelle to take out mons like Gligar, Blastoise and other physical walls it is quite easy to knock out quite a few mons. Steel types are pretty damn useful in this tier, and the ability to set up on Spikes Roserade, Crobat and Outrage from Flygon and Kingdra is very useful. I'm using him with a Choice Band Flygon and they form a double smashing core. Either does very well once something like Bronzong is tricked Specs by Gothitelle and walls such as Gligar are eliminated.
  12. Diatom

    Diatom An enigma
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    I'm a little late, but I'm in with Klinklang and Weavile under the alt R136a1

    EDIT: OK, I'm dropping Klinklang from my team; it absolutely sucks. When you have to rely on the surprise factor of a Chople Berry to get any KOs, you know something is wrong. It doesn't have enough power to KO things, even after a Shift Gear.
  13. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    IN with my alt of KingofHax. I didn't find the time to use it last time so it's still fresh. I'll probably start with weavile and move on to Klingklang later.
  14. Chimera404

    Chimera404

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    Have officially kicked Klinklang off my team temporarily. It plays very nicely, that's for sure, but I'm going to try Moxie Heraboss to cover my team's fighting weakness.

    Edit: NEW PROOF AS TO WHY WEAVILE IS BOSS

    Turn 11
    ChimeraRX called Hitmontop back!
    ChimeraRX sent out Weavile!
    Weavile is exerting its pressure!
    The foe's Claydol used Earthquake!
    Weavile lost 46% of its health!
    The foe's Claydol restored HP using its Leftovers!
    The foe's Claydol was hurt by poison!
    Turn 12
    ChimeraRX: ok
    ChimeraRX: Fine by me
    Weavile used Swords Dance!
    Weavile's Attack sharply rose!
    The foe's Claydol used Signal Beam!
    It's super effective! Weavile lost 33% of its health!
    The foe's Claydol restored HP using its Leftovers!
    The foe's Claydol was hurt by poison!
    Turn 13
    ChimeraRX: still good
    joshpb51 called Claydol back!
    joshpb51 sent out Honchkrow!
    Weavile used Ice Punch!
    It's super effective! The foe's Honchkrow lost 100% of its health!
    The foe's Honchkrow fainted!
    joshpb51 sent out Flygon!
    Turn 14
    Weavile used Ice Shard!
    It's super effective! The foe's Flygon lost 100% of its health!
    The foe's Flygon fainted!
    ChimeraRX: Remember: Ice may suck at defense
    ChimeraRX: But it's a great attacking type
    joshpb51 sent out Porygon2!
    The foe's Porygon2's Download raised its Attack!
    Turn 15
    Weavile used Ice Punch!
    The foe's Porygon2 lost 18% of its health!
    The foe's Porygon2 fainted!
    ChimeraRX: gg
    joshpb51 sent out Nidoking!
    Turn 16
    Weavile used Ice Punch!
    It's super effective! The foe's Nidoking lost 100% of its health!
    The foe's Nidoking fainted!
  15. Aurora

    Aurora i cri evrytim
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    I'll be playing with Klinklang under the alt Ayano.
  16. Demist

    Demist

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    May try all, Weavile definitely ^^
    alt:Raizer
  17. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Ann ArborLolcat
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    Hmm, I'm skeptical of Klinklang's viability in UU and I've already used Weavile, so I'm going to try out Cinccino under the alt Sir Cattington. I might try Klinklang out later but Cinccino is really interesting.
  18. Kav

    Kav

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    Just gonna say a note on Cincinno, since it's sets are pretty sameface and it doesn't seem to be getting much attention in this:

    King's Rock+Skill Link+Paralysis support is flinch city. The opponent will still have a 37.5% chance of making a move, so it's not on par with the likes of Togekiss for a paraflinching set. It also loses life orb for this, which can cause some real issues damage wise. But it'll often net Cinny more hits in the long run. Cincinno does have access to thunder wave, and since it's got good coverage and speed, it can often catch players on the switch, and paralysis support is always nice. It's still a gamble most of the time however.

    Also, while skill link is a fantastic ability, technician shouldn't be forgotten either. Hitting 3 times with technician is equivalent to 112.5 BP, which is nothing to scoff at most of the time. The potential for 150 or 187.5 BP can save the day in a pinch, but it's a real gamble. Technician also boosts wake up slap, which can be very helpful since steel types resist all of Cinny's other attacks anyway. Once again, it's a serious gamble, but since Cinny pretty much only has one set, mixing it up a bit can really fake the other guy out, or at least cause him to underestimate the little rat.

    Using the standard sets, Cinccino just plain isn't UU material. It's just too predictable, too easy to counter, has very little utility, and is often just not strong enough. It can't really shine in UU unless you try something weird with it or leave the game up to a dice roll (and chances are you won't get high on the ladder that way).

    Other moves to consider:
    Sing is incredibly innacurate but can open some doors if you're lucky or just try using it on a switch.
    Thunder Wave as mentioned earlier
    A particularly fast encore
    Substitute

    I won't be attempting to ladder here, since I dipped out of pokemon back in march and things have changed quite a bit since then. Just thought I'd give my two cents.
  19. RainbowCrash

    RainbowCrash

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    Im in
    alt is DJ vinylscratch

    CB weavile all the way it has speed, priority and quite a bit of power Going to use it with a spirtomb to lure them high jump kicks from mienshou.
  20. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
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    Here is my view on Weavile. I've been using him for a few battles, and have definitely been impressed.

    Here's the set:

    Weavile @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Night Slash
    - Ice Shard
    - Ice Punch

    With this set, not only does Weavile check lots of very important threats, which I'll expand upon later, but he can also sweep late game. Swords Dance doesn't really need any explanation-it boosts his attack to very high levels of power. For example, Night Slash 1HKO's 252 / 252 Bold Slowbro, one of the sturdiest physical walls in the game. In fast offensive matches, he probably won't get the time to set-up. However, his great speed allows him to perform well there, checking powerful threats like Zapdos, Nidoking, Flygon and offensive Roserade. And on defensive teams, he can easily counter Gligar and Slowbro, as well as get some heavy damage on ghost types like Cofagrigus(a possible 1HKO with SR and a layer of Spikes when Weavile is at +2) which can easily pave the way for a Heracross late game sweep.

    The move set is fairly simple. Swords Dance allows him to pose a major threat to stall teams, and Ice Punch/Night Slash provides fantastic coverage missing out on only Cobalion and Empoleon(both taken out by Scarf Heracross), since Bronzong takes neutral damage from Night Slash. Ice Shard is very crucial in checking weakened Mienshao, Scarf Flygon, Scarf Heracross, Acrobatics Sceptile, Honchkrow after it has acquired a few boosts, Lilligant and Scarf Rotom-C to name a few uses it has. Ice Punch is needed for KO's on things like Zapdos after Stealth Rock. Night Slash give me a good way to dent Snorlax and Bronzong, as well as doing huge damage to ghost types like Cofagrigus and Dusclops.

    I'm really surprised at how low he is in usage. Below Ambipom, Dusclops and Claydol is awful considering how good a sweeper and revenge killer he is. People need to use Weavile more. Hopefully, the fact that he checks all of the possible falls from OU(i.e. Virizion, Mew and Tornadus) will boost his usage nicely.
  21. Nas

    Nas you know my steez
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    By now you should all be posting your results, teams, logs, etc. I'll be ending this in a few days so now's the time to ladder if you want to win the challenge!
  22. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Ann ArborLolcat
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    Well, I've been using Cinccino pretty often and I'm rather impressed by its viability. Cinccino is a wonderful attacker thanks to that Skill Link ability and plenty of attacks that make absolutely no sense flavor-wise such as Rock Blast and Bullet Seed. The set that I'm using is:

    Cinccino @ Life Orb
    Trait: Skill Link
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    -Tail Slap
    -Bullet Seed
    -Rock Blast
    -U-Turn

    This set is very straightforward: Outspeed just about everything without a Scarf and select an attack. The only drawback to this set is Cinccino's woeful Base 95 Attack which all too often leaves its enemies with just a sliver of health, enough to take out Cinccino with just about any attack. Life Orb mitigates this problem, thankfully, so Cinccino can boost its Attack to respectable levels. Choice Band is tempting since Cinccino seems to need all the power it can get, but Cinccino's attack diversity is just as important as power and Choice Band locks Cinccino into one move per switch-in. Life Orb is the way to go.

    Tail Slap is a wonderful attack. Think of it as Return, except with 23 more Base Power and the ability to break Substitutes and still attack. The only drawback is the 85% accuracy, especially since a miss often spells death for Cinccino. Bullet Seed is a great attack for bulky Waters, and it's also the only multi-hit attack that hits 100% of the time. Rock Blast is for Flying-types mostly such as Zapdos and Togekiss, and Fire-types like Chandelure. U-Turn is absoultely filler on this set since it's not affected by Skill Link, not boosted by STAB, and costs 10% of Cinccino's health to lose.

    Cinccino is useful in this metagame because it's fast and can attack with three different types. 115 Base Speed is monumental in this metagame, typing with Raikou and outspeeding everything in UU besides Raikou, Azelf, Ambipom, Weavile, and Crobat (it ties with three of them). If an opposing team is weakened, then Cinccino can usually just Tail Slap the opposing team to death. Super-effective attacks from Cinccino almost certainly result in OHKOs. The only problems with Cinccino is that it has middling power and nothing to take care of Steel-types with. Technician Wake-Up-Slap is definitely usable, but on average it will make Cinccino's multi-hit moves weaker and lowering Cinccino's average power, even if sometimes it will hit with almost 200 BP, is not worth adding a 90 Power Fighting-type move that won't OHKO steels anyway.
  23. Chimera404

    Chimera404

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    Yeah, that woeful base 95 Atk stat is why I use the mighty AMBIPOM (100, lol).

    I think part of Cinccino's allure is the fact that it has such great coverage, bar steels. CB-locking it into a single move is questionable simply because LO does the job a bit better. Cinccino is reeeaaaaallly fragile, so I don't think it's going to lose much bulk by using LO. The two sets play fundamentally differently; CB acts like Last Resort Ambipom, while LO resembles a variant of All Out Attacker Mienshao, but with a bit more speed and a lot less firepower.

    Going off topic a bit here, but is Skill Link better on Cinccino, or is Technician favored for its raw firepower? Sure, Technician gets you a free CB for multi-hit moves, but Skill Link allows you to rely a lot less on luck, and a lot more on having 3 Base 125 attacks to dent stuff. Inversely, if something like Rocky Helmet Ferroseed swaps in on a Tail Slap (lol) the recoil will kill you instantly (rofl, (12.5% + 12.5%) * 5).
  24. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Ann ArborLolcat
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    Technician is by no means a bad ability on Cinccino, and Skill Link does not directly outclass Techinician. Techinican gives CInccino the ability to use Wake-up Slap competently, which is the strongest move Cinccino gets against Steel-types. Techinican also allows Cinccino to hit even harder than Skill Link if Cinccino decides to hit 4 or 5 times.

    If Cinccino hits 4 or 5 times, which is only a total 1/3 chance, then it will hit with 150 BP for four hits or 187.5 BP for five hits. On average, the weakness of 2-3 hit attacks make Technician the inferior option, but that doesn't mean that the high-variance strategy of Technician is not worth using. Technician 5-hit attacks are the strongest option that Cinccino has, and it's the only fighting chance that Cinccino has against bulky opponents such as Blastoise. Against bulky opponents, Technician is the superior option because Skill Link just ain't going to do enough damage. Though with Technician Cinccino is probably going to do even less damage, there's that 1/6 chance that Cinccino lights up the opponent with a 187.5 Base Power Tail Slap/Bullet Seed/Rock Blast.

    Skill Link brings consistent power to Cinccino's attacks, while Technician gives Cinccino Wake-Up Slap and the potential to nuke the opponent with a 4-5 hit move. Both are viable, but since Cinccino can rarely afford hitting for only 75 Base Power, Skill Link is usually the better option.

    Cinccino would be so broken in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon
  25. Diatom

    Diatom An enigma
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    OK, so I used Weavile and Klinklang, and here are my thoughts on the pokes:

    Klinklang: this thing was bad, but not as bad as some other things (*cough* Ambipom). I ran Chople Berry Klinklang for the first half of the group before dropping it from my team, as the type-resist berries let me get some free shift gears on things like Mienshao and Heracross, then KO them. However, it rarely got more than one KO a match, and the opponent usually just switched in one of its many counters afterward (basically, any steel-type or thing with high defense that resists steel) and proceeded to force it out or KO it. I think it is worthy of a UU analysis, but definitely shouldn't be used outside of the niche role of being a surprise KOer on fighting- or ground-types.

    Weavile: this thing, on the other hand, was excellent. Many matches, it found it hard to set up, but once it did, it absolutely steamrolled the other team. Many teams have only one, or even zero, checks to it, and once the check was eliminated, it was easy to set up one, or even sometimes two Swords Dances on something like Porygon2 or Froslass and proceed to sweep. Really, the only things that consistently checked it were fast scarvers (e.g. Flygon, Mienshao) and Crobat. Of course, there were some matches where it couldn't set up, but that is expected from all pokes, not just Weavile. Oh, and by the way, although it gets a bad rap for being frail, its special defense is definitely adequate, and can take some moves before going down.

    Here's my team after dropping Klinklang for reference:

    === Untitled 1 ===

    Weavile (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Ice Punch
    - Night Slash
    - Low Kick

    Sableye (M) @ Lagging Tail
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 136 SDef / 252 HP / 120 Def
    Calm Nature
    - Taunt
    - Trick
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover

    Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Earth Power
    - Sludge Wave
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt

    Chandelure (M) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Shadow Ball
    - Energy Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]

    Lilligant (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Own Tempo
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Sleep Powder
    - Quiver Dance
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Heracross (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Megahorn
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake

    BTW, Lilligant is incredibly underrated and should see more use.
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