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Research Group Mk. II #5 - Milotic, Mesprit, Mismagius, Ambipom, Lanturn

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by Nas, Sep 16, 2012.

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  1. Nas

    Nas I bring the drama
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    Past Research Group Mk I threads:

    #1 | #2 | #3 | #4 | #5 | #6


    Past Research Group Mk II threads:

    #1 | #2 | #3 | #4


    Keep the following things in mind during every Research Group:

    • Be open-minded, don't just say something is terrible and walk away; look at its stats, movepool, and typing and think something up!
    • Feel free to theorymon early in the research period, but make it clear you're doing so. Later in the period though, you will be expected to back up your posts with hard evidence like logs, actual sets, perhaps even teams.
    • Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's very likely that something has gone unnoticed.
    • Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon I choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. Feel free to VM / PM me these suggestions, but don't expect me to always listen to you.

    This Week's Research Pokemon:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Milotic | Mesprit | Mismagius | Ambipom | Lanturn


    How useful are these Pokemon in UU? What sets can they run effectively? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon? How well do they work in the metagame? If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning. Remember, discussion is not limited to this topic, you are encouraged to talk about these Pokemon in #genvuu as well!

    The Research Group Challenge:

    In order to participate you must do the following:

    • Send me a PM / post here or on IRC with a fresh alt and the name(s) of the Pokemon you will be using.
    • Use at least one of the Pokemon being researched.
    • Post your experiences with the Pokemon you're using, participate in the discussion!

    The first stage of the challenge will be very relaxed so theorymon will be allowed as long as its backed up by good reasoning. During the later stage, discussion will be expected to be backed up by hard evidence, such as teams, actual sets, and logs. The winner of the challenge will be the person who has the highest ladder ranking on the Pokemon Showdown UU ladder on the alt they registered at the time the challenge ends. If you win, you will receive temporary hops on #genvuu, but you may only claim your prize if you actually participated in the discussion!

    Current Participants:

    Forum Name - Ladder Alt

    Detroitlolcat - Sir Cattington III
    Rawbi - Maggy's Faith
    hilarious - rw5
    MysticNova - WaterDragon
    Pokemazter - Orange Crush
    SJCrew - SJ Honda
    Flareblitz - FlareHands
    Chimera404 - Helios404
    Ace Emerald - Emerald Deuce
    ZandgaiaX - NoRadiation
    Classical - Capt Classy
    Jayykay - jaywhykay
  2. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    in

    gonna use mesprit, maybe mismagius.

    mah alt is Sir Cattington III
  3. Rawbi

    Rawbi

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    In. This was fun to do last time, I want to do it again!

    Mismagius was great last gen, so I'm going to give her a try, at least.

    Alt: Maggy's Faith
  4. hilarious

    hilarious

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    in with milotic under the alt rw5

    and ambipom :3
  5. MysticNova

    MysticNova

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    In. Using Milotic, maybe Mesprit or Lanturn.

    Alt: WaterDragon
  6. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    I'll join this week. Haven't had much to do. I'm probably going to end up using Mespirit, Lanturn or Milotic. And to theorymon a bit early on:

    Milotic won't be as great as many people anticipate it to be. Even with Marvel Scale, its still fairly easy to break via physical attacks. Its slow, and does not like special attackers at all. Access to Dragon Tail and Haze is nice to have though. Mespirit will be arguably the best Pokemon of this research group. I've used it before in RU, and its a great TR setter, as well as a moderately defensive pivot. It's got access to some super cool support moves, such as Thunder Wave and Stealth Rock. It won't be making the jump from RU to UU anytime soon, it's not that good, but Mespirit is definitley usable in Underused. Mismagius is outclassed as a spinblocker by Cofagrigus and Sableye, but the NP set may be worth looking into. It's got the Speed and typing to pull it off. Besides that, I feel that Mismagius' role in UU is slipping rather quickly, and it may be in RU/BL2 by mid-2013. Ambipom is terrible. I catch you using it, and your house will be burnt to the ground via these combustible lemons I got from Portal 2. Use Mienshao over this thing for the love of all things sane. Lanturn really peaks my interest, as I've already been seeing it on the ladder prior to its assignment to this research group. It's surprisingly bulky in regards to Special Attack, completely shuts down non-HP Grass Raikou and Zapdos, and is moderately useful in the Underused tier.

    Alt is: Orange Crush

    Should be an interesting group.
  7. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Ambipom and Mesprit under SJ Honda.
  8. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    I think Milotic has a pretty neat niche in being a wonderful Kingdra counter with a Water resistance, balanced defenses, and an SE Dragon Tail to whack it with while forcing it out. But as with all bulky waters it has to compete with Slowbro for a teamslot.

    I'm a little confused how it "doesn't like special attackers at all" with a 95 / 125 spread. I mean it can't take Zapdos on but it can beat Chandelure without Energy Ball, Blastoise, Suicune, etc.

    that's KIND OF a long ways off to be predicting!

    Sableye really stole its niche of "fast Taunting wall", but it does have some reasonable utility defensively as a faster Heracross check. Nasty Plot has a ton of potential with not a lot sitting above 105 speed except Scarfers and Crobat.

    I like having both Scald and Discharge on the same set, and it's also got Volt Switch, which is quite useful since you won't expect many Ground types to come in fearing STAB water moves.

    Not sure what alt I'll be using yet, just thought I'd theorymon a bit.
  9. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    FlareHands

    Ambipom.
  10. Chimera404

    Chimera404

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    I suspect Ambipom and Mismagius were choices inspired from the stage 8 megathread?

    Well, time to pull out that old team from the beginning of BW...

    In with Ambipom and Mismagius for sure. Milotic is a maybe.

    Alt: Helios404
  11. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
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    In as Emerald Deuce.

    I'll be starting with Mismagius, because she's always come through for me. I haven't used her lately, but I've used many different sets over a long period, and I just always felt that she was doing her job well. I have a few different ideas for the team. First one is a double ghost team. I haven't heard anyone really talk about it, but Ghost is a pretty good spam type with a lot of neutralities and not many resisting types. If only it had a move better than Shadow Ball, it'd be set. As it is, I'll make due spamming ridiculously powerful Shadow Balls, with Trick sets to screw over any Snorlax.

    Second team idea is standard hyper offense. That's one niche Missy can firmly hold, as Confagrigus can't set up fast enough or hold the speed, and Chandelure is too slow.
  12. hilarious

    hilarious

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    So I've already played quite a few battles, just over 40, on the ladder over these past couple days so I figure I should say something on Milotic. This is the set I have been using...

    Milotic @ Life Orb
    Trait: Marvel Scale
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Ice Beam
    - Hydro Pump
    - Recover
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    ...because defensive Milotic just doesn't cut it as a bulky water for me, and if I have base 81 Speed i might as well use that (still slower than Adamant Arcanine). Hydro Pump is extremely strong when paired with hazards (Spikes+SR) so its generally OHKOing most stuff not resisting it if they come in at 70% or less (which incidentally is 2 Spikes and SR). That means Pokes you think of as fairly bulky and can trouble Milotic, like Raikou and Heracross and Sableye come in to get OHKOd. Not a bad trade off for missing 20% of the time. Also I think you can use Dragon Pulse, maybe over Ice Beam if you are Kingdra weak but its fun to watch Roserade come in and try and set up on you - and then killing it. The extra power by no means will let you get past Snorlax still or very bulky waters, but other tanks like P2 will die after hazards. Blastoise and Slowbro generally lose to you while Empoleon, Suicune and opposing Milotic are going to beat you still.

    A few things bother me when using Milotic though, first although she is not frail at all for an attacker it would be reasonable to say she is frail compared to her old bulky sets. Both Life Orb and maximum investment in special attack is for my team necessary leaving little room for bulk. She certainly isn't even a very reliable check to Flygon or Arcanine and you're just dumb if you think it beats Mienshao. her special bulk is more forgiving but she won't be able to tank some special moves anymore like Chandelure's Shadow Ball without losing serious health. Recover helps relieve the loss of bulk somewhat and its relatively easy to find openings to use it in.

    I have many many many doubts on using a defensive Milotic (lol 79 base defense, affected by hazards, good special defense offset by weakness to grass and electric, toxic weak) which is why I chose to use an attacking tank and while I won't even say she is good I think she has a usable niche in UU still and can work on a team that needs her. Oh and before any of you try using a brilliant flame orb set to use marvel scale, let me tell you now it is extremely unlikely it will be worth it (losing essentially 18.5% more per turn but still losing to strong physical attackers?!)
  13. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    So, Ambipom is actually decently good.

    Ambipom @ Life Orb
    Jolly technician max attack and speed blah blah let's skip the foreplay
    -Fake Out
    -Low Kick
    -Beat Up
    -Return

    This Ambipom is like a Cincinno but with priority and different coverage, which is probably the best way to use it. U-Turn is really stupid on something with as little offensive presence as Ambipom, the only switches you're going to forcing are to things trying to absorb fake out (which can gain you momentum but can also cause you to eat a bunch of damage in hazards and life orb). Maximizing your coverage allows you to predict ghost and steel / rock switch-ins and severely damage them with the appropriate move. Using alongside chestorest kingdra to decimate an opponent's defensive core.
  14. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Yea, that how I always envision an effective Ambipom to be used. U-turn is dumb on it. Fake Out and some nice coverage moves sets it apart from Cinccino.

    Is Beat Up better than Payback, btw? Not sure how much damage Beat Up dishes out; I reckon each hit receives a Tech boost, which would make the damage massive maybe

    EDIT: 2HKO on Slowbro holy shiiit
  15. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    From my experience using it, Beat Up from a team of 6 healthy Pokemon with an average base attack of 100 or so is around as strong as STAB Return. It is capable of 2hkoing Slowbro, for reference, and does severe damage to Cofagrigus even without Technician.

    Payback should not be used on Ambipom. Shadow Claw and especially Beat Up are much better, because the most common target for Payback will take away Technician and force you to use a base 50 BP move to damage it.
  16. Nas

    Nas I bring the drama
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    Of course, one of the pitfall's of using Beat Up is that it can potentially give pokemon with the Justified ability, particularly Cobalion, +6 attack if they switch in. Even though you outspeed and have Low Kick, you don't manage a KO after SR + Beat Up + Low Kick, and Cobalion almost always carries Leftovers. The other thing, which is less situational, is that Beat Up is only going to be more useful than Shadow Claw for early-game pounding when you have 4+ Pokemon on your team. If I did my calculation right, using base 100 Atk for all teammates, Shadow Claw becomes more powerful than Beat Up when you have 3 or fewer pokemon left. I guess it comes down to preference, Shadow Claw is more reliable throughout the course of the game whereas Beat Up is clearly superior for weakening cores at the start of the match.

    Another thing I was thinking about is how it (somewhat) negatively affects your teambuilding. Most of my teams don't have an overall base Atk of 100, the highest was actually 85 out of a few teams I averaged out. In this metagame, I find special attackers to be much more effective than physical attackers so I rarely have more than two physical attackers on a team. Pokemon with low base Atk (like Cofagrigus, Togekiss, Roserade, etc) really hurt your Beat Up BP. With that said, I wonder what the general consensus is with regards to Shadow Claw vs Beat Up?

    For the people who don't know how Beat Up Works:
    Show Hide
    Deals damage. The user attacks the target 1 to 6 times (once for every active Pokemon on the user's team). The names of the Pokemon are not given. The Base Power of each hit is determined as follows:

    Base Power = (Base Attack stat of user)/10 + 5

    Technician is factored in with each hit
  17. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Well I did some quick calcs, and unless you're packing a bunch of low-powered mons or lost half or more of the team, Beat Up dishes out more damage. For example, three mons (not including Ambipom) with 85 base atk would still give Ambipom 83.5 power move after tech boost. Basically, Beat Up would be superior for most of the match.
  18. Chimera404

    Chimera404

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    Ehhh

    What's a good mon for raising average base attack? Mismagius, Togekiss and Roserade are not doing me any favors here.
  19. ZandgaiaX

    ZandgaiaX

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    Mismagius

    Alt: NoRadiation

    Time. To. TEST.
  20. Classical

    Classical

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    lanturn

    Capt Classy
  21. hilarious

    hilarious

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    I was like um completely wrong when I said Shadow Claw was the best Ghost Pokemon coverage move in the august stats (although payback is still even worse), Beat Up is usually far superior. I was using U-Turn on Ambipom then I tried Beat Up because Flareblitz is right I generally didn't force switches it was usually me just running away rather than big scary Ambipom scaring stuff. The fact that I didn't even know Beat Up was a move on Ambipom when I made the team and that my team's base attack average is 108 (which according to my math nets about 120 base power after technician for Beat Up) makes me think using Beat Up will randomly hinder your team. Of course that also means it will randomly not affect your team at all so I think you should just use Beat Up on Ambipom when in the middle of building your team but if it becomes obvious later it is weak then just scrap it.

    I have no problem posting this team because I want to make a new team with Ambipom.


    Show Hide
    Ambipom @ Life Orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Jolly Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Beat Up
    - Return
    - Low Kick

    Sharpedo @ Life Orb
    Trait: Speed Boost
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Crunch
    - Earthquake
    - Waterfall
    - Protect

    Zapdos @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Spd / 248 HP / 8 SAtk
    Timid Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Toxic
    - Roost
    - Hidden Power [Flying]

    Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Cursed Body
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Ice Beam
    - Destiny Bond
    - Spikes
    - Taunt

    Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
    Trait: Mummy
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 30 Def / 30 SAtk / 30 SDef / 2 Spd
    - Nasty Plot
    - Shadow Ball
    - Trick Room
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]

    Swampert @ Leftovers
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 252 HP / 12 SDef / 240 Def / 4 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Waterfall
    - Roar


    The team's focus is pretty clear I think - lay down hazards that here to stay with double ghost and then try and sweep later with Sharpedo or Cofagrigus. Zapdos has Toxic to nail bulky threats like P2 and Sableye if Spikes doesn't do enough to them while Ambipom can clean and revenge. I kill plenty of Chandelure and Cofagrigus which usually means an easier sweep for my own Cofagrigus (they can't just come in as I use NP). I don't use any scarfers as revenge killers because Ambipom covers that role neatly, rarely will my opponent ever be in high health because hazards and I won't let a Kingdra for instance set up on my Zapdos without taking a heavy Thunderbolt. Fake Out can usually do the rest.

    Whats really good about Ambipom is that great speed and that good movepool - its Return is just a tad weaker than Scarf Heracross' Close Combat for reference and it has coverage to hit everything except Bronzong and Sableye for neutral STAB or super effective coverage moves. Fake Out is good for revenge killing stuff that might be in the middle or murdering you like notably Porygon-Z. It has +3 unlike other priority and flinches which means if you somehow let something dangerous set up you can sack something, use Fake Out, sack something else and then Fake Out again. The only time I had to do this was against a PorygonZ actually, idk how I let it set up but only Ambipom could have stopped it.

    Of course this is completely ignoring the fact Ambipom has shallow defenses, in between that of Zoroark and Froslass while having even fewer resistances. Being affected by all the hazards is not helpful. Low Kick is strong enough to 2HKO bulky Empoleon and Cobalion but I would prefer a simple OHKO which it fails to do by a pretty large margin. Rhyperior can avoid a 2ho if it invests a lot in HP which most do. Some bulky Pokemon can be taken out by repeated attacks like Blastoise and bulky attackers like Shaymin and Zapdos but you generally have a hard time against everything else. Its not hard to weaken them I believe though. So I think Ambipom is quite usable but only if your team has a need for it, don't go slapping it on a team and hoping it works.
  22. jayykay

    jayykay

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    think i'm gonna use mismagius, lanturn, and maybe mesprit.

    alt is jaywhykay

    edit: I'm finding it hard to use mesprit. For support, Uxie is better, and for attack, azelf is better. It is so mediocre..
  23. Ace Emerald

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    Well my double ghost strategy was underwhelming for exactly the reason I thought it might be: Shadow Ball just sucks to spam. Chandelure would much rather spam Fire Blasts then Shadow Ball, and Missy just wasn't helping with that. As good as an attacking type Ghost could be, it just doesn't have the moves. I'm having a lot more luck with my Hyper Offensive team. I stand by my prediction that fast set up in Missy's last niche in UU, and it does it pretty well. 3 immunities and the special bulk to set up on weak or non STAB special attacks is nice, and that LO +2 Shadow Ball really hurts. It needs a lot help with Snorlax and P2, as well as some scarfers such as Darmanitan and Chandelure. I'm going to try a more balanced team next, as the HO team isn't that great, with no fault to Missy.
  24. Rawbi

    Rawbi

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    On 9/18/12, at 10:06 PM, Disentery wrote:
    > use manturn

    So I've been taking the PS for a little bit with Mismagius and Lanturn, working them both into a VoltTurn team. I'm sort of underwhelmed with Missy, but Lanturn is doing well with Heal Bell fixing up the burns/paralysis on my momentum gainers. The team is still under construction, but so far so good.
  25. Nas

    Nas I bring the drama
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    I'm ending this now. Due to the ladder rankings reset, there will be no winner declared for this round. The next RG will be up shortly!
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