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Research Week #2 - Quit bugging me!

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by tennisace, Feb 1, 2012.

  1. tennisace

    tennisace
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    Hi there.

    Research Week attempts to investigate Pokemon who have potential, be it in stats, movepool, or supporting their team, to serve as an innovative choice in today's metagame. These are Pokemon that, for the most part, remain relatively untested. I've selected 3 Pokemon I feel, with help from everyone else, could see use as they fill a particular niche. Perhaps the title is a bit of a misnomer; in fact, this installment (and perhaps future ones) of Research Week will continue as long as the discussion does, and that's where you all come in.

    If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning!

    Some rules:
    -Be open-minded. Just because something looks shitty doesn't mean it is (or if it is, back up your reasoning).
    -Test it! Get crazy. This is the one time where I'm going to encourage being gimmicky (to a certain point).
    -Don't just think of the Pokemon itself, think of what it does well for a team and what the team needs to support it.
    -Don't suggest Pokemon in this thread, PM me or VM me or find me and maybe I'll include it in the next one!

    The title is both referring to the three Pokemon in our next research week, and the fact that not a day has gone by without someone asking me when it would get posted. Well, here. Without further ado, here are the three Pokemon we're looking at this week:

    [pimg]12[/pimg] | [pimg]284[/pimg] | [pimg]570[/pimg]

    Butterfree (open)

    Butterfree is well known as being the prototype shitty early-game Bug-type However, in the last couple of generations, Butterfree has been getting more and more helpful tools to keep it somewhat competitive. With the physical/special split in DP, Butterfree got special STAB in Bug Buzz. It also got Compoundeyes in Gen 3, and Tinted Lens through the Dream World. Finally, it got Roost, and more importantly, Quiver Dance. Quiver Dance allows Butterfree to boost its Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed once it has slept something, in order to smash through much of the metagame. However, it is still 4x weak to Stealth Rock, so be careful.


    Masquerain (open)

    Unfortunately for Surskit, it loses that excellent Water-type when it evolves, instead changing into yet another Bug/Flying type. However, Masquerain has a few tricks up its sleeve. It too gets Quiver Dance, and is one of the only Pokemon with Intimidate in NU. It is also the only mon that can Baton Pass Quiver Dance to other Pokemon (in NU). For coverage moves, it gets Bug Buzz, Air Slash, and Hydro Pump, all of which are excellent moves. However once again, its stats are lackluster, and it is still 4x weak to Stealth Rock (and a lot of other types in general).


    Leavanny (open)

    The newest Pokemon of the three, and the most different. Leavanny doesn't get Quiver Dance, but has high attack, good speed for the metagame, Swords Dance, Baton Pass, and did I mention STAB X-Scissor and Leaf Blade? Where Leafeon would be forced to use non-STAB X-Scissor, Leavanny can power through almost all of the bulky Psychic types and OHKO (or OHKO with Stealth Rock). However Leavanny is frail, and carries a nice 4x weakness to both Flying and Fire, both common types in the metagame, with no immunities like the first two.
  2. ChaoticaMortis

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    I love Leavanny (used it extensively in-game on Black version), but I think it has way too many weaknesses to be used without a shit-ton of team support. 4x weaknesses to Flying and Fire, along with SR weakness kind of sucks, especially when your main item for attacking sets is Life Orb.

    It does however, have a 4x resistance to Grass and Ground, as well as Water, Fighting, and Electric resistances. As it has moves that are usually Super Effective against Grass and Ground type Pokemon, this could give it an easy switch opportunity as well as a possible chance to set up Swords Dance.

    Going back to disappointments on it: Leavanny's special movepool is quite impressive; she has access to Bug Buzz, Air Slash, Energy Ball, Leaf Storm, and the somewhat gimmicky Silver Wind, as well as Calm Mind to boost, BUT she only has base SpAtk AND SpDef of 70. These below-average stats make a special attacking set a bit repulsive.

    Baton Pass actually looks nice; Leavanny can pass Agility, Calm Mind, Hone Claws, Substitute, Swords dance, and maybe even a gimmicky boost from Silver Wind. It also has a decent Speed tier (base 92) to help it get off these moves fairly quickly.

    Standard attacking sets probably use X-Scissor, Leaf Blade, Swords Dance, Substitute / Agility, which look pretty good to me.

    Lets all go and test!
  3. moonbound

    moonbound

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    Butterfree is definitely a supporter and not a sweeper, the best thing it has is near perfect accuracy sleep and paralysis along with U-turn. Sweeping should be left to Masquerain or Mothim, who both have distinct offensive advantages.
  4. Smith

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    I think Amarillo can attest to Butterfree's excellence, 100% sleep is just not something to be ignored. The SR weakness hardly matters since he succumbs to a strong breeze anyway, but his speed isn't bad by NU standards in the least and he can even maintain momentum with Stun Spore. I agree that Quiverdance just isn't a good option of him, there are much better abusers.

    SPEAKING OF, Masquerain is a really cool option! Bug / flying / water typing is pretty magnificent, and her typing gives her some unique characteristics. With Intimidate and a 4x grass and fighting resist, she can certainly wall some rather irritating threats like CB Sawk, Leafeon, etc. QuiverPass should never be neglected as an option, but in this case the SR weakness is pretty siginificant, since Masquerain relies on her bulk to a degree to tank hits that allow her to set up.

    Leavanny was the option I was least expecting when I opened this thread, but is also a pretty cool mon. 92 speed isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination, and neither is bug/grass coverage. The one thing holding him back is its rock weakness- not necessarily to Stealth Rock, but just an inability to set up on Golem / Regirock / Bastiodon etc like we all know Leafeon can. Its problems as a baton passer also stem from an inability to really deal effectively with any bird that switches in- it would really need substitute to be of any use, and in that case it starts forgoing its really important dual STABs. I'm wondering if a Double Booster set with Agility might be best for this mon after all, to get the jump on scarf birds, Rotom-s, and even Gorebyss in the rain; his guy DOES have the potential to demolish rain, after all. I'll certainly test this guy!
  5. Amarillo

    Amarillo
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    When I was checking Leavanny's movepool in dex, I was surprised that Leavanny got an analysis before Leafeon in RU, given Leafeon's higher attack, higher speed that hits an important threshold, and equivalent bulk given Leavanny's weakness to SR. Then, I realized that the Bug-STAB over Leafeon is something, I guess... The next thing I realized is that Bug STAB isn't just an average STAB, especially in such a Psychic / Dark / Fighting infested metagame! Flyers give Leavanny some real trouble, which is rather concerning.

    As for the Quiver Dancers, I feel that Butterfree's niche is Sleep Powder, and Masquerain's niche is Intimidate + Special Defense boost + Baton Pass. For QD Butterfree, the best set around is Sleep Powder / Substitute / Quiver Dance / Bug Buzz with Tinted Lens. It's not the best set to ladder with, given that the average sleep powder misses quite a lot (which was quite surprising as I used Compouneyes for the most time) which can cost you the game. However, It's easy to get 2+ boosts if you play well with Sleep Powder. After +2, I think it outspeeds Rotom-S, and hits it hard with +2 neutral Bug Buzz, which gets them by surprise most of the time. (I'm not sure but I think it OHKOs after SR?) Sleep + Substitute gives it great chance to set up vs. all Adamant Absols, which could basically end the game right there. In general, it screws around with the bog-standard Psychic / Dark / Fighting cores very much.

    Yeah, Double Powder is still my favorite set for butterfree, though <3
  6. SuperJOCKE

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    Leavanny can also be used in sun, making it super fast, outspeeding pretty much everything (Adamant, 566 max, Jolly, 622 max).
  7. bean1706

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    The main problem I've found with Leavanny is its lacking movepool. While Grass and Bug coverage is alright, being walled by flying and fire types really sucks and an un-stabed Return is very underwhelming.
  8. Lady Shinki

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    I have an idea for Leavanny.

    Leavanny @ Leftovers
    252 SpAtk/252 Spe/4 Def
    Timid / Chlorophyll

    Calm Mind
    Giga Drain
    Bug Buzz
    Baton Pass/Leaf Storm

    The idea is that most things will aim to status it with Burn or Toxic to impede a sweep. However, Grass has excellent coverage in the tier on its own, and paired with Bug it turns into something fantastic. Its attacking power actually isn't that bad, and you could compare this set to people trying out CM Serperior, its stats aren't that much better than this and it's countered by the same things. This has the advantage of not really being able to be "walled" because it can always Baton Pass out, and the ability to set up on Fighting-type attacks offsets its comparative lack of bulk to Serperior. Plus, it can actually beat Psychics no trouble while outspeeding and 1hko'ing Absol with Bug Buzz (obv it won't survive boosted sucker punch, but that's more of a bonus than anything else). The way I see this set is: no matter what Leavanny does, it'll be hard-countered by birds and Magmortar (and stuff like Torkoal/Camerupt too). This at least lets it attempt to support its team and pass Calm Minds to something obnoxious like bulky SubCM Misdreavus, who will appreciate the easy switch-in vs. a weaker Rock or Fire move... or just go to a phazer-resistant mon like Cradily/Octillery.
  9. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken AA8
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    Tinted Lens Bug Buzz is cool. Not much resists that in the tier, and Sleep Powder certainly eases Butterfree's sweep, essentially erasing a counter. SubQD Butterfree plays almost like SubNP Jynx, except Butterfree also boosts its Speed and Special Defense, making it that much harder to revenge. Of the three, my favorite is probably Butterfree but then again it's the only one I've played around with. Will be looking forward to testing Masquerain in particular; what do you guys think would make good recipients of QD passes? For example, Magmortar resists Masquerain's Fire-type weakness and will truck shit with a QD boost. Not much in the tier both resists Rock-type moves and would make good use of QD boosts though (unless I'm forgetting something), which is kinda disappointing.
  10. SuperJOCKE

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    Everyone have their favorite bug. Butterfree is slightly faster, with Sleep Powder and Roost over both of them, while it has Tinted Lens over Masquerain. Masquerain has Baton Pass, Hydro Pump, and Intimidate (also Air Slash over Butterfree), while Mothim has better Speed than Masquerain, Air Slash over Butterfree, and better offenses than the other two. It's all up to what you prefer.
  11. Smith

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    A good recipient of a Quiver Pass would
    -have good physical bulk
    -resist the types that Bug/Flying can't handle (fire, rock)
    -"truck shit" with a QD pass or two

    That said I think Gorebyss would actually be a really good receiver. It has surprisingly good physical defense, can absolutely blow through the opposition at +2, and can baton pass away any boosts it gets should a good Gorebyss counter show up. Sadly it can't use smashpass, but its a good option.
  12. BattleStar

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    lol funny pun is funny.

    Yeah this certainly is an interesting research week.
    These Pokemon are all great but only due to theit move pool and abilities. They have access to great niches but what keeps then down is just bad stats that fail to really back up the Pokemon.

    Masquerien is really my favorite one( I wrote about it in my Research week) as a offensive force. It has access to high caliber moves Base power wise. With quiver Dance Masqurien can actually be used to a certain degree of success as a late game sweeper.

    Really love this latest research week. Will post more later.
  13. Machineae

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    I loved Masq in ruby but besides playing with it ingame I haven't found much use for it. I'm thinking a focus sashed set with QD/BP/Bug Buzz/Air Slash would be useful, get a QD or two, BP if your opponent will resist your two STABs or stay in and hopefully net a KO or two.

    I use this butterfree and it actually works rather well with proper support (ie: Rapid Spin)

    Butterfree (F) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Tinted Lens
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Quiver Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Hidden Power [Flying]
  14. BattleStar

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    Why HP flying wouldn't rock or Ice maybe be more effective? I understand that probably is for STAB.
  15. kniteowl

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    Oops my bad (please delete this post)
  16. Axa

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    Tinted Lens means that Bug Buzz pretty much nails anything Rock or Ice would hit with only a small loss of power. Because of that, HP Flying is usually preferred for a much stronger hit on certain targets like Sawk.

    HP Rock would hit other Bug/Flyings harder, but none of them enjoy taking a Bug Buzz anyway, except maybe Ledian. HP Ice does hit quite a few targets, but the only notable ones are maybe Jumpluff and Altaria.
  17. Machineae

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    ^ Pretty much summed up my thoughts. Its really up to you which HP you use, but I think that because of tinted that Bug Buzz is the most desirable move to use for most of the metagame and HP Flying is just there for STAB.
  18. Fizz

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    Just a note, Kenshiro: Unless PO is incorrect, Leavanny cannot learn Giga Drain by any means.
  19. Agent Gibbs

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    Yeah, unfortunately it can't.

    I've actually had some good success with Butterfree. Compoundeyes + Sleep Powder/Stun Spore is pretty neat, and Tinted Lens + Bug Buzz works surprisingly well in NU. As far as Masquerian goes, I've actually had more success with it as a QD Passer than a sweeper. Leavanny...well, I haven't tried it yet, so no comment.
  20. Omicron

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    Butterfree is an amazingly underrated threat. Quiver Dance + Sleep Powder + Tinted Lens is an incredibly dangerous combination. The only thing that lets it down is its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock and its terrible Defense and average Speed.
  21. DestinyUnknown

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    There aren't many good rock resistant pokemon in the tier which can use special moves... You may want to try something like Cradily (Bulk+Recover/Gigadrain) or something like that. It also fucks over roar.
  22. RitterCat

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    Yeah, the thing with Butterfree in some ways is not knowing if it's a supporter with CompoundEyes or the monstrous Tinted Lens Bug Buzz, as both function well. I can attest to Tinted Lens, as tennis wrecked me with it :P (despite my attempts to repress the memory)

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