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Research Week #3 - Shelmet, Lopunny, Cradily, Relicanth

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by DTC, Feb 23, 2012.

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  1. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    approved by tennisace

    NU is a tier where many Pokemon are usable, and there are a ton of different options. Research Week aids in helping explore the tier, and is especially effective right now as NU is relatively balanced. Who knows, maybe in future tier changes one of these Pokemon can be incredibly useful, potentially being able to check the new threats well. Maybe one of these Pokemon may find uses in other tiers and is not just a simple throw-away Pokemon, unlike some unfortunate Pokemon in NU.


    Some rules:
    -Be open-minded, don't just say something is terrible and walk away; at least look into them and see what options they may be able to utilize!
    -Feel free to theorymon, but make it clear that you are theorymon'ing. At the end of the week, however, I want discussion to move towards how useful the Pokemon actually are in NU, and what sets are effective on them.
    -Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's quite possible that something might have gone unnoticed or is missing.
    -Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon I choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. I want discussion to stay on topic about the 4 Pokemon we are "researching". Feel free to VM / PM me these suggestions, but don't expect the next research week to have all the Pokemon you suggested, or any of them.

    Anyways, the 4 Pokemon we will be looking into for this Research Week are:

    [​IMG] |[​IMG] |[​IMG] |[​IMG]

    How useful are these Pokemon in NU? What sets can they run effectively? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon?

    Discuss; I can't wait to see the discussion that comes out of this! :) Don't forget you're not just limited to this topic to discuss these Pokemon, I encourage you to talk about them on the #neverused irc chat as well! At the end of the week I hope we can reach a general consensus on how good these Pokemon really are, and maybe we might find some interesting discoveries.
  2. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    ive played a lot with Cradily before and enjoyed more offensive sets(edgequake coverage is good) and relicanth has that amazing recoil free head smash. I'll enjoy testing these out for sure and will come back with more observations later
  3. Full2Half

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    ive used shelmet and cradily quite a bit. abusing that SD + suction cups + bullet seed with the PO bullet seed glitch is fun on cradily. also, i use shelmet sometimes for spikes. but unfortunately, spikes, toxic stall, and possibly curse passing is all it can do. relecanth is something that ive always meant to use but havnt got to it, and lopunny ive tried, but it miserably failed at all sets ive tried.
  4. Keiran

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    Whilst some call Karpman the master of Lickilicky, I myself strive to become the master of Lopunny. I've used this thing extensively in RU before NU was created Klutz and Switcheroo is simply a god send for an other wise mediocre Pokemon, allowing to pass off many crippling items such as Choice scarf and Flame orb without being affected by the items and steal away the common Eviolite. Lopunny also has a fantastic movepool, filled with gems like Encore and Healing Wish and other typical moves like Thunder-wave and Toxic. In NU I would probably use this set, like I discussed earlier on IRC.

    [​IMG] @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Klutz
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 SpD / 176 Spe
    Nature: Jolly
    - Switcheroo
    - Thunder-wave
    - Healing Wish
    - Return

    Firstly, the EVs and Nature allow Lopunny to outspeed base 95 Pokemon such as Jynx and Leafeon and cripple them with Thunder Wave. The rest of the EVs are dumped into HP and SpD to focus on Lopunny solid special defence stat. Healing Wish is just way too good of a move to pass up, essentially bringing your weakened sweeper such as Gorebyss, Jynx and Leafeon back up to full health, ready for round 2. And finally, Return prevents you from being complete taunt fodder and hits the physically frail ice-types Jynx and Cryogonal hard.

    I will probably test Shelmet tomorrow, as it is the most interesting mon to me. (Spikes !!)
  5. shnen

    shnen שוני
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    Thoughts:




    [​IMG]

    Shelmet

    Admittedly, Shelmet is the only one of these that I have actually used, (so for the others I will be theorymonning a bit) and even that was on a silly team full of bad things. However, it actually surprised me by being decent, and fairly hard to take down. Of course, it is complete and utter taunt fodder; it can't even 1hko 4/0 Cacturne with Bug Buzz! Despite this, its decent resists, such as to Fighting and Ground make it a decent physical wall, being able to switch into most of Sawk's moves for example and coupled with access to spikes and recover it can be fairly useful. A set utilizing the combination of Hydration and Rest could also be fun on a Rain team. However, many mons can come in almost for free and set up on him or kill him, such as Magmortar, Gorebyss and Rotom-S, although Toxics do harm their durability somewhat.

    [​IMG]

    Lopunny

    Lopunny certainly interests me. With its capacity to annoy very easily, as well as function as an effective stallbreaker with Klutz + Switcheroo, potentially disabling a key member by locking them into one move and removing them of their precious leftovers (or, even better, an eviolite), and being able to support the team with moves such as healing wish and encore, Lopunny has the potential to be a great support mon. In addition, it can catch you by surprise with a Substitute passing set, and can work on full Baton Pass teams.


    Unfortunately, the good ends here for her: most of her stats except for speed are decidely "meh", and she is a classic example of Taunt fodder. As well as that, she suffers a bit from the infamous 4 moveslot syndrome. In addition, her typing is rather uninspired and leaves her prone to the common Fighting-types, although she can cripple Pokémon such as Gurdurr and Throh with a Choice Scarf. For this reason I could see it pairing well with Ghosts such as Misdreavus and Haunter; á la Lickilicky.

    [​IMG]

    Cradily

    Cradily can run a myriad of sets: Support, Swords Dance, CurseTalk and even Specially Offensive utilizing the boosts from Storm Drain. What I would most likely use first of all is a Support set, taking advantage of Cradily's access to great moves such as Stealth Rock and Recover; as well as her great bulk and decent typing, letting it act as an ok check to the infamous Birds, but unlike others such as Regirock and Golem she can hit Gorebyss hard with a STAB Grass-type move. A set utilizing Swords Dance to make her a bulky booster also interests me: she has fairly good offensive STAB moves, hitting some of the primary walls for Super-Effective damage, and can use either Recover or Earthquake in the last slot, granting either longevity or near-perfect coverage (damn you Bronzor!) In addition she has access to the ability Storm Drain, which allows her to serve as a great check to water-types such as seismitoed.

    Sadly, Cradily is weak to many common attacking types, and while her secondary Grass typing grants her neutrality to Grass (as well as many other resists), it brings with it a troublesome weakness to Ice- and Bug-type attacks, as well as a neutrality to Flying, which can hinder her from checking the birds as well as other Rocks can. In addition, without investment or boosts Cradily is very weak offensively, and can be set up fodder for a few Pokemon such as Leafeon. Finally, she is also weak to Fighting, which means that she will always be hindered by Sawk and Throh, Throh in particular being able to phaze out any boosts she may have acquired with Circle Throw.

    [​IMG]

    Relicanth

    Lastly, I come onto Relicanth. I am definitely interested in Relicanth, as he has a fair amount of unique qualities which set him apart from other, similiar Pokemon. He can run 3 viable sets in my opinion, which are what I will be testing: A bulky Support set, a Rock Polish set, and a Choice Band set. A support set, despite facing competition, is viable due to Relicanth's excellent physical bulk and decent support movepool. Over other Rock-types such as Golem and Regirock, Relicanth has a secondary Water typing, which removes his weakness to Water and grants numerous useful resists, as well as a powerful recoil-free Head Smash. Furthermore, Relicanth also has access to the move Yawn, giving him a means of pseudo-phazing (pseudo-pseudo-phazing if you will), allowing him to spread residual damage, or of course put an opponent to sleep.

    Unfortunately for the prehistoric fish, his secondary Water typing also causes him to be 4X weak to Grass as well as weak to Electric attacks. These happen to be primarily special attacking types; hitting him on his abysmal Special Defense, another fault of his. He is also tremendously slow, and has common weaknesses.

    A Rock Polish set would take a more conventional means to sweeping, setting up to +2 Speed before attempting to seriously damage the opponents team. He has solid coverage of a decent Attack stat, as well as a God-strength Head Smash to "smash" all his enemies with. As well as that, his ok Speed stat lets him beat Scarf Rotom-S and below at +2 with a Jolly nature, a hurdle that one particular fish has trouble with jumping over, and he can bulldoze it with his Head Smash.

    Despite this, Relicanth will find it hard pressed to find a set up window, as most Pokemon in NU have a way to hit it hard or deter it from setting up by some other means. While he may outspeed Scarf Rotom-S, Scarf Jynx still beats him and can Energy Ball or Focus Blast him into oblivion. Also, Relicanth is walled by fairly common physical walls such as Tangela and Alomomola.

    Lastly, a Choice Band set could make good use of his strong attack and high BP moves, that no recoil Head Smash cannot be stressed enough, as well as his good bulk. Most of the time you would just be clicking the Head Smash button, but as stated he has some decent coverage options as well. It's strength is such that it 2hkoes even Tangela and Regirock!

    As has been stated, it is hard to find a window to get Relicanth in for free and Smash something, but when you do you know shit's gonna go down. Being locked into one move is a bit of a hindrance for him, as he loves to utilize his coverage moves and to not have to constantly rely on Head Smashs shaky accuracy.

    I will test these soon and report back with my findings and thoughts!
  6. col49

    col49 what.
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    kk, so the only poke is played with enough to warrant a decent summary of is probably shelmet, and imo, not at all bad. He's pretty damn bulky with Eviolite, and Recover is a godsend to any Eviolite poke. Bug typing, while not being amazing, means that he can absorb attacks from Sawk, Serp and pals all day, while having Bug Buzz to actually wear them down (not amazingly, but i tossed in something like 28 evs and he managed). True he lets a bunch of dudes switch in for free, but Body Slam does at least deter switch-ins to a degree. All in all, he makes a decently reliable layer of Spikes and a solid defensive pivot.
  7. MikeDecIsHere

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    Shnen, Cradily has Storm Drain, j/s, so it's immune to water
  8. col49

    col49 what.
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    ^ yeah, but running storm drain forces ya too drop SR+Recover iirc. sorta blows

    edit: nvm, maybe i had an old client or something before, whoops
  9. shnen

    shnen שוני
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    Yeah, I was aware of Storm Drain but it misses out on some key moves, although of course it is still viable, and obviously on a support set you can't afford to miss out on those moves.
    edit: oh thanks for clearing that up, yeah I thought SR at least was illegal, will edit my post
  10. moonbound

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    Cradily's only move limitation with storm drain is that it can't have giga drain along with egg moves (stealth rock and recover). So it can still use all of its moves, just not some combinations.
  11. Steamroll

    Steamroll resident zombie
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    The one mon that really has my interest is Relicanth. It has a unique niche in the fact that beyond its great physical defense it sits at a very key speed tier of 55. After a Rock Polish Relicanth becomes an extremely dangerous mon because it can outspeed all the Shell Smashers after a boost and even outspeeds key scarf mons in Rotom-A and Magmortar and pretty much everything below base 86 speed. A recoil-less Head Smash and STAB Waterfall + Earthquake is all the coverage it needs, really only leaving him walled by grass types, aka Leafeon, Eggy and Tangela.
  12. Omicron

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    Cradily's Storm Drain ability is really awesome. I don't think it necessarily needs the Special Attack boost, it can just take advantage of that immunity to set up on bulky Water-types lacking Toxic. Curse is definitely a solid set, EdgeQuake coverage and / or Seed Bomb is amazing, and Cradily won't even go down to super effective moves after a few curses. Granted, it is slow as balls and can't really hit anything until it boosts, but it certainly has potential.

    As for Relicanth, the only other Pokemon I've used in NU out of the list, I can definitely vouch for its effectiveness. Choice Band Head Smash hits like a truck, and no recoil is amazing. I've been on the receiving end of that a few times, and boy did it hurt... Rock Polish can work pretty well too, as long as you get rid of stupid shit like Tangela, Alomomola, etc,
  13. kniteowl

    kniteowl

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    How about a Substitute + 3 attacks Relicanth?

    [​IMG]

    @ leftovers
    Ability: Rock Head
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Att / 4 Spe
    Nature: Adamant
    - Substitute
    - Head Smash
    - Waterfall / Aqua tail
    - Toxic / Double Edge

    Switch into something you wall like a Swellow and set up a substitute, and pick and choose your attack of choice.

    A base 100 HP stat means when fully invested gives you 101 HP substitutes allowing you to wall pokemon that have to rely on moves like seismic toss

    Substitute also makes predicting and attacking easier if your opponent tries to switch out to their checks and counters and it also makes missing with head smash's 80% accuracy less painful.

    Stab Recoil less Head Smash is the obvious first choice, followed up with your secondary stab in either waterfall or Aqua tail a choice between power over accuracy.

    The Last slot depends on coverage. Toxic really Screws over Tangela and Alomomola attempting to wall you if they don't have a cleric on their team.

    Recoil less Double Edge hits pokemon that resist your dual stab such as water/ground like Quagsire and Grass/Ground like Torterra.
  14. Gold Geno

    Gold Geno

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    The only Pokemon here i've used is Shelmet, and i must say it works WONDERS as a wall. It has all the right moves to wall (as well as the prospect of Spikes set-up, which it does well too) and a stat-spread to match. It only has 2 problems: It has NO offensive presence or prowess whatsoever, and it is HUGE taunt bait. other then that, its a fantastic Pokemon.
  15. Amarillo

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    I find that Relicanth's rather underestimated speed is very crucial part of its success. I remember that when I ran a Gorebyss + Normals team, Relicanth's speed (outspeeding Timid Gorebyss if you wish) always gave be a headache. I'd say Relicanth is one of the better offensive Rock-types we have in the tier. CB Relicanth is really usable, if you can get over the bad accuracy. I mean, 80% is about as good as it gets for Rock-types anyways!

    As for Shelmet, I don't quite like it. (I don't like defensive Pokemon weak to SR in general) but it's really weak and allows strong things to just come in and start destroying. I guess it has Yawn to force switches, but it already needs Spikes / Recover / Bug Buzz.. I guess Toxic is expendable with Tspikes support. Granted, it's one of the Spikers, and that alone merits some usage.
  16. breh

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    shelmet: sets up spikes and dies to special attacks, OK but not great I'd assume
    Lopunny: it uses Switcheroo and it doesn't do a whole lot after.
    Cradily: everything you'd think it might counter (Birds, Water types) has an SE move to hit it (birds to an extent (neutral BB is quite nice, all of them have a slightly weaker U-turn); Samurott has Megahorn and Gorebyss has Ice Beam) or is countered better by Regirock (see birds). Outclassed very heavily.
    Relicanth: I had fun using a Rain Dance set. Has to choose between high speed and recoil-less head smash (50% recoil is terrible); has a very, very lackluster Attack, especially with little investment.
  17. Machineae

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    Relicanth (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Rock Head
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Head Smash
    - Waterfall
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Polish

    I use that often and it's pretty great as it only takes that one turn of setup and it reaches 416 speed. It definitely needs a little more power (which is why I put on LO) but it definitely KO's a lot of pokes after some entry hazard damage.
  18. Omicron

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    Shelmet is probably the worst Pokemon listed in the OP. I tried it out, and it is extremely underwhelming. Despite the defenses boost from Eviolite, it is still susceptible to powerful attacks. It is also weak to Stealth Rock, and is vulnerable to both Spikes and Toxic Spikes, a terrible trait for any defensive Pokemon. Like Amarillo said, its only saving grace is its access to Spikes, which barely makes it viable, especially as there are better spikers in the tier, such as Cacturne and friends. Recover doesn't really make a difference when you get OHKOed anyway, and can't heal status.
  19. VN.

    VN. the birds pt. 1
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    Cradily in particular strikes my fancy. The fact that it boasts excellent defensive stats in conjunction with Recover gives me the vibe that it's one of those Pokemon who are above-NU potential wise. The weakness to Magmortar and Jynx and the fact that it's walled by Tangela is discerning [although maybe I could slap Toxic on to get past it], but I definitely think it has the potential to be a top-tier Pokemon if used correctly. I'll definitely make a Cradily team and get back to you guys with results.
  20. Steamroll

    Steamroll resident zombie
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    Relicanth is just a total boss so far for me. Whenever I manage to get him in and have a rock polish down something dies. Makes me feel all tingly inside when people underestimate the power of a life orb boosted head smash.
  21. Full2Half

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    after seeing this thread and putting my origional post, i decided to try a RP relicanth. and i must say i like what ive seen. ive been using it along with a sub-punch muk and it does wonders. i run just enough evs to outspeed jolly cinccino after a RP, and the sheer power of head smash wrecks all others. And i must say as well, i also went back to using shelmet, and frankly, it SUCKED. it set up a layor of spikes then died. Got to try lopunny, but still seems lackluster tho.
  22. Machineae

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    ^ Told ya :3

    I have no trouble setting up all my layers of spikes with Shelmet, but outside of that its goddamn useless.
  23. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    So I've tested all of these (other than Lopunny, I still need to test that out more) in the past few days and the results are pretty interesting. Relicanth in Trick Room is a monster, and I saw RP in action once or twice and it was effective. Later this week I want to try out a defensive set as it has impressive 100 / 130 / 65 defenses. It also has Yawn, which is pretty useful.

    As for Cradily, I think it's alright. Hasn't been that effective for me so far, but it was able to tank various threats. I was using:

    Cradily (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Storm Drain
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Recover
    - Rock Slide
    - Energy Ball

    Basically I just used its STAB's as they hit various Pokemon neutrally, and hit things such as Quagsire and the birds super effectively. Not being able to hit Pokemon such as Skuntank super effectively was annoying, though, and I wish I could use Giga Drain with Storm Drain. =/

    Boosting Cradily sounds interesting, and I've seen people use it a few times, but it's not like it's very challenging to prevent it from boosting up that much, so I doubt it'll be that great.

    Now, out of all of the Research Week Pokemon this week I'd agree with all of the users posting that Shelmet isn't that great. It's pretty good at setting up hazards reliably, but that's literally all it does, and it isn't really useful for countering stuff as it really only has Bug Buzz as an attacking option...

    Anyways, keep up the good work guys and continue testing! This thread is going great so far, and by the end of the week I hope that we extensively test each of these Pokemon -- even if we think one of them isn't that great. (In this case, Shelmet; and not many people are keen about Lopunny, either.)

    Also, don't be afraid of posting sets you think may be gimmicky. As long as the set has at least some use and is not completely outclassed by another one/another set that Pokemon could run, post it!
  24. NatGeo

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    I tested out a Rock Polish Relicanth for the first time yesterday and I'm pleasantly surprised by how well it performs. 90 Attack isn't bad at all, and you can actually beat your typical 144 Speed Samurott 1 on 1, OHKOing with Head Smash (blarajan found THAT out the hard way). Head Smash kidna works like Aggron in RU - you just mindlessly blow everything to bits with Head Smash and you save Waterfall / Earthquake for everything else, which is actually very little considering, again, how powerful Head Smash is. I was running:

    Relicanth @ Life Orb
    Rock Head | Jolly
    4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Head Smash / Rock Polish / Waterfall / Earthquake

    I think you could drop a few Speed EVs so that you outspeed Gorebyss - its something like 232 EVs as far as I know, though then again maybe tying with Exeggutor may be a better idea, but I don't know how much Head Smash does.
  25. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Little Mons (4)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    This team is cute and warm and fluffy and has the perfect balance of cuteness and strength.
    It is an incredibly good team for making tactical and strategical plays with its diversity.
    It does well vs popular metagame threats such as special Rampardos and Toxic Infernape.
    It's also relatively easy to play and very customizable which makes it a great choice.
    Show more (open)

    Murkrow uses the Sub Swagger set because it has not been banned from Pokebattle.
    Pawniard uses the Toxic Magnet Rise set to stall out Groudon.
    etc

    Like Comment
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
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