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Research Week #6 - Rapidash, Articuno, Kecleon, and Stunfisk

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by DTC, Apr 7, 2012.

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  1. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
    is a Smogon IRC SOPis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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    NU is a tier where many Pokemon are usable, and there are a ton of different options. Research Week aids in helping explore the tier, and is especially effective right now as NU is relatively balanced. Who knows, maybe in future tier changes one of these Pokemon can be incredibly useful, potentially being able to check the new threats well. Maybe one of these Pokemon may find uses in other tiers and is not just a simple throw-away Pokemon, unlike some unfortunate Pokemon in NU.


    Some rules:
    -Be open-minded, don't just say something is terrible and walk away; at least look into them and see what options they may be able to utilize!
    -Feel free to theorymon, but make it clear that you are theorymon'ing. At the end of the week, however, I want discussion to move towards how useful the Pokemon actually are in NU, and what sets are effective on them.
    -Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's quite possible that something might have gone unnoticed or is missing.
    -Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon I choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. I want discussion to stay on topic about the 4 Pokemon we are "researching". Feel free to VM / PM me these suggestions, but don't expect the next research week to have all the Pokemon you suggested, or any of them.

    Anyways, the 4 Pokemon we will be looking into for this Research Week are:

    [​IMG] Base 105 Speed and the Flash Fire ability make Rapidash a potent offensive threat and distinguish it from its rivals Magmortar, Charizard, and Emboar. With a powerful Flare Blitz that can easily be boosted, it makes an excellent wallbreaker on Sun teams. It also has access to Megahorn, which allows it to break through bulky Psychic-types such as Solrock and Grumpig more easily, and Morning Sun can be used as a reliable recovery option on Life Orb sets.

    [​IMG] Among the bulkiest Pokemon in the tier, and with access to Pressure and Roost, Articuno makes an excellent stalling-and-walling Pokemon. Although a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock prevents Articuno from repeatedly switching into battle, it can use Substitute + Roost to survive almost indefinitely against slower opponents, draining their PP with Pressure and their HP with Toxic. Sets using Heal Bell and Roar can provide additional team support.

    [​IMG] Kecleon can fill a number of different roles, all of which make the most of its unique ability, Color Change, which allows it to wall most Choice item using special attackers. Specially defensive sets can take hits from attackers such as Magmortar with ease, healing off damage with Recover as its typing changes to block STAB attacks, and using Thunder Wave to paralyse switch-ins. Offensive sets are also viable as Kecleon packs an extensive physical movepool and an above-average Attack stat.

    [​IMG] Exceptionally hard to kill, Stunfisk certainly isn't a fish in a barrel, due to its high bulk and the range of debilitating status conditions it can inflict on opponents. It makes excellent use of its Static ability in combination with Discharge to paralyse offensive opponents, while using Toxic and Scald to slowly wear down defensive opponents. It can also use Rest + Sleep Talk to provide reasonable recovery, and more offensive sets can be surprisingly powerful.

    (cheers to erisia for the descriptions!)

    The Research Week Challenge:

    • Users will use any number of the research week mons on their team
    • Users will attempt to reach as high as possible on the ladder with the Pokemon. Breaking past the 1400 mark on the ladder with your registered alt will earn you a spot on the Hall of Fame: Gold Class. Crossing the 1350 mark will secure you a Silver Class spot while a 1300 rating will earn you a Bronze Class spot. Post a screen-shot of your peak in order to achieve this, and a pastebin of your team.
    • Users will be expected to post their experiences with the pokemon they use, the teams they used, the problems they encoutered while trying to make the said pokemon work.
    • If a user does not participate in the discussion, he will be passed over.

    In order to participate in the challenge, simply pm me (on irc or on the forums) what Pokemon you're trying and your fresh new alt (yes, this is mandatory). Post battle logs, experiences with your team on the ladder, and generally how a Pokemon has worked out for you: past or present.

    Discuss; I can't wait to see the discussion that comes out of this! Don't forget you're not just limited to this topic to discuss these Pokemon, I encourage you to talk about them on the #neverused irc chat as well! At the end of the week I hope we can reach a general consensus on how good these Pokemon really are, and maybe we might find some interesting discoveries.

    One person will get chosen as the Research Week Champion for this week. This will be decided by me; the person who ladders the most and contributes to the research week discussion the most will get temporary Half Op status on #neverused and they will potentially get a few other perks! Good luck all!

    alt list (open)

    • Raseri -- RaseriRW
    • ShakeItUp -- -SW4G-
    • TropiOUs -- Holy Mr_Trousers
    • Keiran -- .Keiran
    • Django Reinhart -- Duh55
    • Endorfins -- EndorphinsRW
    • Straw Hat -- Gomu Gomu
    • erisia -- eresearch
    • Calm Pokemaster -- Calm Pokemaster
    • Alex Arthur -- [nu] RW Alex
    • FLCL -- Real Force
    • tennisace -- testificate
    • Limi -- Researcher Limi
    • CrashinBoomBang -- KingLose
    • Karpman -- Jive.Kid
    • Lady Shinki -- ExMai
    • elchupo -- El Salvador
    • DestinyUnknown -- i used to love you
    • Steamroll -- Rotom-H


    Research Week Hall of Fame (open)


    Gold Class: 1400+

    1406 CrashinBoomBang -- Rapidash, Articuno

    1405 FLCL -- Rapidash

    Silver Class: 1350-1399

    1383 shnen Stunfisk

    1360 Raseri -- Rapidash

    Bronze Class: 1300-1349

    1344 erisia -- Rapidash

    1301 Django Reinhart -- Rapidash
  2. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    Alt: RaseriRW

    using rapidash probably, though all of them look really interesting. Articuno with Wartortle support could be really hard to break, ill post more later when i actually test them
  3. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- ¡YA HA!
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    Alt: -SW4G-

    using dat big kecleon
  4. Machineae

    Machineae

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    Just some sets I've used to some success-

    Lead/Weather support

    Kecleon (M) @ Leftovers/Damp Rock
    Trait: Color Change
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rain Dance
    - Aqua Tail (Gets that rain boost if you do have to hit)
    - Frustration/T-Wave/Toxic/Magic Coat/Recover

    Works pretty well I'd say, has some good staying power due to it's ability and it reaches 372 spD with max investment and boosting nature.

    Sun abuser/LO set

    Rapidash (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Morning Sun
    - Flare Blitz
    - Wild Charge/Low kick
    - Megahorn

    Pretty self explanatory. Flare blitz is boosted in the sun, as is Morning Suns healing.
  5. TROP

    TROP *tips fedora*
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    Alt: Holy Mr_Trousers
    Using Rapidash and stunfisk.

    Edit: Dropped Articuno and Keckleon realizing that they no matter what don't fit my playstyle.
  6. Keiran

    Keiran

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    alt: .Keiran

    The only Pokemon I'm interested in this week is Stunfisk, so I guess I'll post my thoughts on it. Stunfisk seems like a really cool status platform, while it doesn't get recover or whatever, it is one of the few BW Pokemon to receive Sleep Talk which I'll definitely be taking advantage of.

    I'll probably be using the ResTalk set from it's analysis till I can figure out a better spread.

    Stunfisk (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Static
    EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Discharge
    - Earth Power​

    I'll definitely be pairing it with Pokemon like Samurott, Marowak and Eelektross who appreciate the paralysis support. Unfortunately, Stunfisk is pretty much an excuse for grass-types like Torterra to come and do whatever it likes. So pairing it with flying- or fire-types will be good.

    I might even try a Specs Set, trolled shnen with it in an rng battle once :P
  7. Django

    Django
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    Alt: Duh555 (Don't ask)

    Definitely using LORD MAGGYO. Not sure about the others, probably going to try them out too. Posting more later after testing etc etc.
  8. Endorfins

    Endorfins Your Worst Nightmare
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    Alt: EndorphinsRW

    Testing them first, posting findings later.

    Stunfisk: I tested this for a few matches and my first thoughts are that the metagame is out to get Stunfisk! Grass, Water, and Ground types are everywhere as is the popular Jynx. It gets steamrolled by Weather teams that have Swift Swim and Chlorophyll sweepers. Magmortar also 2HKOs with Fire Blasts iirc. That being said, Stunfisk is incredibly bulky and it is an incredible status spreader if it gets the chance to live throughout the match. People often underestimate Stunfisk and choose to setup on it, just to see their sweeper get paralyzed or burnt. Static is also incredibly useful as it can screw with Sawk and other fast contact sweepers.

    Kecleon: This thing is BULKY (at least specially), it can take on almost every Special Attacker in the tier with the right prediction. Unfortunately, that's also Kecleon's downfall, its really easy to manipulate your attacks to get a super effective hit on Kecleon. Eg, Hidden Power Grass then Fire Blast from Magmortar will roast Kecleon. Also a great setter of Stealth Rock and reliable recovery goes a long way in helping him stay alive. Unfortunately, Kecleon is pretty weak offensively and so many things can set up on it, especially if they have Substitute.
  9. Straw Hat

    Straw Hat

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    I'll be Gomu Gomu
    am using Rapidash
  10. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    I'm going to be using Rapidash since I think the niche of Flash Fire in NU has yet to be explored offensively. I might use Kecleon too if I feel like it, but that'll be a seperate attempt and not for laddering purposes.

    Because people don't seem to want to use Articuno, I'll post my thoughts on him now, as I used him considerably on an older team. Yes, it's 4x weak to Stealth Rock. No, that doesn't mean it's useless defensively. Articuno isn't 2HKO'd by most Grass types even AFTER Stealth Rock, and can set up Substitutes or Roost on them all day. It can stall out Stone Edges, Fire Blasts, and Close Combats from slower users ridiculously easily, and can be really hard for the opponent to take down unless they have a Golem or Cinccino. If you can use other Pokemon such as Quagsire and Luxray to provide Poison support (Toxic Spikes is good too, but use Ice Beam to take out the Grass / Poisons before setting them) then you can run Protect and become an even bigger stalling machine.

    Rapid Spinners are all well and good, but they're not completely mandatory to ensure Articuno can come in safely against its targets at full health, and remember that Articuno itself is still immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. While Wartortle is pretty shit in general, it does a good job Rapid Spinning for Articuno due to its typing, Scald can deal with Rock Blast users, and it finds lots of opportunities to Toxic switchins, and to lure in Vileplume and Amoonguss for Articuno to take down.
  11. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
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    Cherub and Molk invited me to play NU, and erisia told me about this thread, so here I am in NU DST.

    alt - Calm Pokemaster

    I am using Rapidash, by the way. This thing hits like a goddamn nuke, and if you remove Water-types, spam Flare Blitz and sweep. Flare Blitz / Megahorn / Low Kick / HP Grass is working pretty fine. The SR weakness sucks though, but you can always use a Rapid Spin user for that. Will elaborate after fiddling around with the team more.
  12. Alex_Arthur

    Alex_Arthur

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    I'm going to use the alt : [nu] RW Alex.

    At first I was going to use Kelcon but I found it really under whleming at doing everything bar getting hazards up. So now I'm going to use Stunfisk who makes a really good partner for a number of pokemon in the tier.

    I'm just using a RestTalk Stunfisk to prolong his bulk and spread status with Scald and Discharge. A lot of the time you rely on sleep talk hitting the right move at the right time but I seem to have been rather lucky so far. People do under estimate him and try to set up and even if I get unlucky and don't get one of the status on the set up user I can usually capitilise on Stunfisks death thanks to the partners I've selected. Cacturne in particular is an amazing partner since Stunfisk will often force some things out due to its immense bulk meaning more hazard damage, thats not to mention that Cacturne can take some water and grass attacks aimed at Stunfisk especially if you elect for Water absorb over Encore.
  13. FLCL

    FLCL
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    Alt: Real Force

    Using Rapidash and possibly Articuno.

    I had a hard time fitting in Articuno when I was building my team; Cryogonal just seemed perform the same way it did while having the ability to Rapid Spin. I'm not trying to downplay Articuno or anything, it's still a fine Pokemon.

    I've been using LO Rapidash along with a sturdy defensive core and it has been a solid addition to the team. It can plow through teams easily once the physical walls have weakened a bit, although sometimes its damage can be a bit lackluster. The key is to play Rapidash with its advantages in mind, mainly the combination of speed, physical power, Flash Fire, and recovery, to avoid it being outclassed by Charizard, Magmortar, or Emboar.



    Edit: I managed to reach over 1400 with the team. Rapidash hasn't been the MVP of the team, but it does do a great job of cleaning up and breaking walls. Miltank is 2HKOed by Low Kick, which in my opinion should always be used over Megahorn, and Regirock is 3HKOed. The only Pokemon that can safely take Rapidash's attacks are Alomomola and Water/Ground types, assuming one is running Wild Charge in the third slot. Morning Sun is extremely helpful since Rapidash tends to force a lot of switches, and can be useful in dealing with Seismic Tossers. It allows Rapidash to switch into weaker attacks such as a Cryogonal Ice Beam, scare it out, and heal off the damage.

    Again I'd like to point out that what really sets Rapidash apart from other fire types is Flash Fire. The ability to switch into Fire Blasts and Will-O-Wisps is a godsend for Rapidash, since it can't switch much else. Once it grabs a boost, the opponent is under a huge amount of offensive pressure. On my team, I pair the horse up with loads of Pokemon who draw in fire attacks and it has benefited both Rapidash and the other 'mons since the opponent tends to use fire type attacks less. In a way, it sort of supports the rest of the team like that.

    I find it really easy to support rapidash with other team members. It's weaknesses can be covered easily by standard defensive Pokemon in the tier; I used Tangela + Quagsire. Packing a cleric could also help, since Rapidash tends to get statused a lot when switching into walls such as Vileplume. I didn't have room for one and there were situations where I wished I did.

    Ladder Peak (open)
    [​IMG]


    Here's the pastebin of the team http://pastebin.com/RKk6hPYd
  14. Django

    Django
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    I've been trying out a stall team with Kecleon, who has been absolutely amazing so far. Its 120 SpDef is great, and with Colour Change it can wall loads of chocied attackers, even taking on Charizard in a pinch. With Recover it sticks around for a while, and sets up Stealth Rock too. Really liking it atm.

    I am tempted to try a stall team with Articuno, but the choice of spinners is really annoying me, and I do not want to have to resort to Wartortle.
  15. tennisace

    tennisace another eggnog, please
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    Social Media Chief

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    alt: testificate
    i'll probably be using rapidash.

    all these mons look really interesting except articuno, since i just can't see why you would consider using it over cryogonal, which is really useful in that it can spin.
  16. Limi

    Limi
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    despite pessimistic suspicions of failure to even achieve Bronze Class, I shall try my hand at this.
    I'm kinda undecided which of these to use, but since I'm your resident hipster fag, I'm probably gonna try them all.
    alt is Researcher Limi.

    (+1 post for DTC!)
  17. CrashinBoomBang

    CrashinBoomBang doing 3 teams at the month
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    I guess I'll join this since why not!

    Using the amazing alt KingLose and the amazing Pokemon STUNFISK
  18. Living So Zambian

    Living So Zambian
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    I didn't even know this was a challenge until Tennis told me x__x

    Anyways I need to get back into this after getting haxed in many a OU Match.

    Jive.Kid will be my alt
  19. Lady Shinki

    Lady Shinki

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    Guess I'll make an alt and see what the fuss is all about.

    Alt: ExMai
    Testing: articuno, kecleon, and stunfisk
  20. elchupo

    elchupo

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    Alt: El Salvador

    Testing: Articuno, Stunfisk.

    Gonna test Pressure+Toxic stall Freefall Articuno (tested it back when hail was around and it was pretty insane) and CurseTalk Stunfisk. As well as other sets.
  21. marilli

    marilli
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    I'll probably use either Kecleon or Dashy.
    (i'll edit in the nick too)
  22. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    [​IMG]

    I'll probably push for gold eventually but i'd like to discuss Rapidash for now.

    The set I've been using so far has been:

    Rapidash (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Wild Charge
    - Flare Blitz
    - Low Kick
    - Quick Attack

    I've gone through quite a few sets before settling on this variation of CBHorse. When I first built this team I was running a sunny day team with Flare Blitz / Wild Charge / Megahorn / Morning Sun. It was actually very effective but I couldn't get past around 1230 with it; because sunny day teams are incredibly reliant on team match-ups. And to many teams are overprepared for them since Sawsbuck and Charizard dropped. So after that I switched Morning sun to Low Kick and removed all traces of sun from the team. The new variant got me to around 1330 but Rapidash was just dying to fast. So I finally decided to switch to a Choice Band version; he hits like a truck, has solid coverage and even priority. Quick Attack was added because there were many sweepers I couldn't quite OHKO before they killed me. So adding a weak priority move allows me to finish them off before they kill me. This got me to 1360(ive since fallen to 1335) and into silver standing.

    Rapidash has not been the mvp of my team; but has provided a lot of support. His primary purpose has been revenge killing set up sweepers and wall breaking. The large amount of damage he can do allows him to do around 50% to a lot of things that can wall my late game cleaners. Low Kick lets me bring Probopass down to 1hp as soon as the match starts; which is very important. Rapidash's biggest problem is fraility; i cannot switch him into anything at all except for week fire moves. Even resisted attacks do a lot of damage. I'll push for 1400 but i figured I might as well post now. If i make 1400 ill post the whole team
  23. CrashinBoomBang

    CrashinBoomBang doing 3 teams at the month
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    Okay so I used Stunfisk at first; 2 variations of it to be exact. The first one was Specsfisk:

    Stunfisk (M) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Static
    EVs: 120 HP / 120 Def / 252 SAtk / 16 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Thunder
    - Earth Power
    - Surf
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    16 Speed EV's to outspeed other Stunfisk, 120 Defense EV's because I like equal defenses, max special attack and the rest in HP. I used it on a rain team to abuse its (admittedly pretty strong) Thunder, but it really wasn't pulling its weight. Its speed was too slow to really kill more than one Pokemon and without massive investment into its defenses it really couldn't take any strong hits. Since it was a rain team, Gorebyss and Ludicolo did most of the work anyway. I decided to trash that team when I got 6-0'd by Sunny Day Solarbeam Exeggutor. The team got me to about 1250 or so before I started to go on a losing streak.

    That's when I tried to use a different set: The usual Restalk Stunfisk (and other TWave users) to spread paralysis so Ursaring could clean up.

    Stunfisk (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Static
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Discharge
    - Earth Power
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    I actually really liked this things bulk (it could wall Scarf Emboar until it was put into Blaze range through Earth Power + Flare Blitz recoil easily, and could take 2 hits from stuff like CB Braviary's Brave Bird which was pretty cool), but it just didn't suit my playing style. I really hated Discharge only inflicting paralysis 30% of the time; Static didn't help much either. It also did pretty much nothing against teams with a Heal Beller, most notably Lickilicky. With all that said, I'm sure Stunfisk can be used effectively (no really, its typing has a great niche), but I probably won't be using it effectively any time soon.

    Overall, Stunfisk definitely had its moments, but it's not a Pokemon I'd really use, so I decided that I'd try Kecleon out next. Let's hope that goes a bit better.
  24. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Okay, I've been using this Rapidash for a while, and I've managed to peak at 1344, just short of silver tier. Its primary purpose on my team is to absorb Will O Wisps aimed at its teammates (Golem, Samurott, Sawk, Skuntank) and to get rid of their users, as well as Tangela. So far, it's been doing a really good job against Misdreavus and Weezing, and it's handy for taking on Fire types in general. After Rocks, Magmortar even dies to Flare Blitz. o_O

    Rapidash (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - Flare Blitz
    - Double-Edge
    - Overheat
    - Morning Sun

    Overheat is there to help Rapidash get past physical walls like the aforementioned Weezing, and is helpful when I need a Fire attack that doesn't induce a lot of recoil. Double Edge is there so that I can hit Fire types other than Magmortar for decent damage, and also gives me a neutral hit on Water types, although I should probably be using something like Low Kick, Wild Charge or HP Grass over it. Although it dies quickly, it kills pretty quickly too.

    I tried using Megahorn over Double-Edge, and it ended up costing me silver, so meh.

    Ladder Peak (open)
    [​IMG]
  25. DestinyUnknown

    DestinyUnknown in other words...
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    alt: i used to love you

    pokemon: rapidash
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