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Research Week Mk. II #3 - Relics, Disciples, and the Young

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Trinitrotoluene, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. FinalEquin0x


    Nov 23, 2011
    Username: FinalEquin0x
    alt: AirTime
    Ladder Standing: None yet
    Research Subject: Togekiss
  2. Blizzard

    Blizzard @ NeverMeltIce

    Jul 22, 2012
    Username: pkblizzard
    Alt: PepTone
    Ladder Standing: ACRE:1535 GXE:62 Glicko2:1623 ± 63 (provisional)
    Research Subject : Chandelure

    When i made my sun team, i made it based on a shiftry. Chandelure was on this team because it complements shiftry perfectly. So i was laddering, testing shiftry's effectiveness in OU. Then this research week came once again and it was just another reason to try chandelure. The team's been performing quite well, but it's too early to decide a thing.

    Chandelure is great, to say the least. STAB fire blast in the sun is no joke, coming from that 145 base sp. Att.
    However, Chandy's in UU for a reason. It has its drawbacks and needs quite some support when building teams with it. I'll write more when i get some time.
  3. Shining_Latios


    May 5, 2010
    Username: Shining Latios
    Alt: Same Old
    Ladder Standing: N/A
    Research Subject(s): Shaymin
  4. TaBuu


    Sep 9, 2012
    Chandelure has definitely been an interesting Pokemon to use around in OU.​

    Does Chandelure fare well in OU?
    Well, yes and no. Chandelure definitely has won my respect as a OU-viable offensive SpinBlocker. With a Scarf attached, Chandelure can outspeed even the fastest Rapid Spinner Starmie. What's even better is that Chandelure can afford to run a Modest Nature, furthering its' monstrous SpA stat. With a combination of Fire Blast and Shadow Ball, Chandelure has been able to pretty much roast Ferrothorn (Even under Rain as it just hits 100% damage) and Forretress preventing nasty ER Set-ups. Starmie would also fall to a STAB Modest Shadow Ball. Chandelure has always prevented a Rapid Spin from happening and honestly is quite good at it with some smart thinking.
    Now this is where Chandlure's fun and games stop. Being a Fire-Type, its burdened with a Stealth Rock weakness and thus really needs some support before becoming very effective. Also Drizzle takes a massive dump on Chandelure pretty much neutering his STAB and leaving him with either Shadow Ball, a weak HP Fighting or Energy Ball ._.
    Chandelure also is quite frail and so switching constantly with this Pokemon is not recommended. This truly prevents him from being a team player and more of a reserve Specialist Pokemon, coming out only when he is needed and usually staying in for most of the battle.
    Chandelure also becomes a huge liability when the opposing teams carries no Rapid Spinner. Sure Chandlure can stay in and proceed to Revenge Kill and/or break some holes but honestly, there are just way too many faster and better Revenge Killers out there than Chandlure.
    Sun Teams look weak to Chandelure until you realize a lot of Sun Teams carry Heatran, Dugtrio or EQ Venusaur.

    So what's your impression?
    Honestly, Chandlure has carried sometimes while other times he really just acted as a space filler getting KO'd turn 5 and not accomplishing much at all. Chandelure definitely has a chance in OU as a premier offensive Spin Blocker but otherwise his niche is pretty limited. I might continue to work a bit more with Chandelure but as of now my expectations for Chandelure aren't going to get much higher.
    *Shaymin+Cobalion are actually looking pretty interesting to me and I was wondering if I'm allowed to test them at this point*
  5. Virtuous Vice

    Virtuous Vice

    Mar 7, 2013
    Username: Virtuous Vice
    Alt: [Victory] Victini彡
    Ladder Standing: 1071
    Research Subject(s): Togekiss, Chandelure (No Guarentee for Chandelure)

    edit: I am going to restart with a ALT of MK II Subject and see where the ladder takes me. I find this more accurate.
  6. SuperChillarmy


    Nov 20, 2010
    Username: SuperChillarmy
    Alt: ChillAirForce
    Ladder Standing: N/A
    Research Subject(s): Togekiss
  7. Reymedy

    Reymedy Colt Python 357 Magnum.
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus

    Oct 17, 2012
    So, I just reached a decent level so I'm gonna talk a little about my experience et cetera.

    First, I've been playing Chandelure, in a Hail (I'm really such a awfully bad Hail player), and here is the ranking at the moment :
    Show Hide

    I'll probably try to improve it later, depending on the free time I can spend.

    Homework :

    How useful is Chandelure in OU?

    More useful than you could believe at the first glance.
    I chose Chandelure because I think that its typing is amazing, and grants to Chandelure many advantages.
    So basically, it gives a spinblock ability (mostly against Forretress, let's not lie). But, even Starmie etc.. why ? Because your opponent won't act the same if they know that you can spinblock.. they'll rather try to hit you on the switch. This pressure Chandelure (like Gengar) can apply on your opponent is always great.

    In terms of offensive power, Chandelure is a real beast. First Ghost is an amazing offensive typing, when you pair it with Fire.. the combinaison is resisted by few pokemons like Heatran.

    What sets can Chandelure run effectively?

    The issue lies probably here. I think a Scarf set is probably the only one, although I could definitely see a SubSplit work in some particular cases.

    I used a Scarf set with a Modest nature since Timid wasn't hitting any interesting to me. It means that Chandelure will still hit like a truck and outspeed anything that isn't scarfed (bar some useless stuff like Jolteon).

    What gives Chandelure trouble?

    As I said Heatran, was annoying for my set. Any scarf that is faster is also annoying. Tyranitar is a threat, especially if you get locked because you need to hit him on the switch with HP Fight. Stuff like Rotom-W are hard to break, but usually Hail teams don't have issues with those pokemons.

    What advantages does Chandelure have over other Pokemon?

    Well, as I said, the typing, the raw power.

    What niche can this Pokemon fill in teams?

    An offensive spin blocker with a rare Fire typing in OU. Especially with Hail teams in my opinion since they need a Fire pokemon most of the time. And if you don't want to be weaker to Fight.. Chandelure is your man.

    Surprisingly, Chandelure walls many pokemons effectively. Afraid of Volcarona ? Here is your man. Want to tank U-turns ? Want to come on Lucario and revenge kill it peacefully (don't get Crunched though..) ? Breloom is a bitch ? Sun teams are some annoying match-up based teams ?

    It is one of the few scarfers that are really useful against stall teams. Given the raw power of Chandelure, you can bait easily a pink blob and give it a Scarf. Then, you usually roll over the Stall team.

    So, in one sentence, Chandelure fills the niche of a wall breaking Scarfer able to spin block in a pinch and providing his team with a rare Fire typing in our metagame.

    Are they worth the team slot on your team or is it outclassed?

    Definitely NOT OUTCLASSED by any mean given the few but rare advantages that Chandelure got.

    About the team I used :

    - Abomasnow mixed attacker
    - Chandelure Scarf
    - Skarmory
    - Nidoqueen (it was Double Dance Landorus-T before, but Nidoqueen filled an interesting niche in my team)
    - Kyurem (the issue when I was considering Hail was.. why would I even play this crap ? I mean, no abuser ? Well, here is your abuser, laugh as the Rain teams players leave after running out of Gyro Ball PP on their Ferrothorn)
    - Starmie

    So it's almost a Stall.. but not really. I cash on hazards a lot, but the team still manage to have an offensive power. My Starmie, my Nidoqueen and obviously my Kyurem are not defensively oriented in their build, I use their typing as defense, and provide them with the offensive build they love.
    It may lack some speed to match-up with some HO, but my defensive backbone usually stands their assaults.

    So, I'll try to improve it, I found it really interesting, to be honest I always wanted to play Chandelure, and to play Hail ;D
  8. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Oct 9, 2012
    @ remedy , I see a choice band tyranitar being a problem for you.. even without knowing the exact sets I mean. Crunch and stone edge does a ton to everything here... have you considered a fight type of some sort like scarf terra instead of something like kyurem (because lets face it, blizzard is not enough of a reason to use two ice types in a team)? At least you should be sure that aboma always outspeeds cbtar investing a lot of speed.. just some thoughts.
  9. Reymedy

    Reymedy Colt Python 357 Magnum.
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus

    Oct 17, 2012
    Well, my Abomasnow does outspeed Tyranitar and the reason why I didn't post an importable was because I didn't want my opponent to know my speed etc.
    Anyway, I wouldn't give up Kyurem. Like never, ever.

    On the top of that I got Skarmory and Nidoqueen, so I'm not too too worried. A sand player should really not play too much with his Tyranitar against me, because once it's down, they usually don't win. I just have to hide my Starmie and my Chandelure, the rest of my team beats a Tyranitar in 1vs1 (yes, even Kyurem).

    Scarf Ttar is annoying because it will surprise me one time (maybe..), but I won't change a pokemon for that, and I wall it hardcore when I know the set.
  10. Soul Fly

    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 16, 2013
    Thank you for saying that. I have been saying this like forever. Normal Kyurem is Underrated. People need to stop Circlejerking around Kyurem-B just because it has that l33t attack stat.

    With Pressure this thing will stall you to hell and back.
  11. Ryuuki


    Nov 28, 2012
    I saw that the end date was on the 25th is it still okej to give Togekiss a review or should this tropic be counted as closed?
  12. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene Περαιτέρω φαίνεται για πάντα
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jul 13, 2010
    No, no. The 25th was just placed as an arbitrary (read: pointless) end date. If you have something to bring to the table, then please do so.
  13. Ryuuki


    Nov 28, 2012
    So a review of Togekiss like I said =D

    This is the togekiss set that I used
    Togekiss (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Air Slash
    - Heal Bell
    - Roost
    - Body Slam

    How useful are Togekiss in OU?
    Well Togekiss usefullnes in ou is quite limited as all of it's UU rolls are pretty much outclassed by other pokemons. But it have some nice bulk to make use of and it can take random strong attacks like Landorus-I's Focus Blast, modest Heatrans Fire Blast in sun or Keldeo's Hydro Pump in rain all of them after stealth rock. It's useful but it's more trouble making it realy useful then ditching it and run something like Keldeo instead.

    What sets can Togekiss run effectively?
    Togekiss most effective set is the paraflinch set. All other sets get outclassed or it dies before it can make good use of it. Togekiss is to slow for the nasty plot set in this metagame as 80 speed isn't good for a sweeper, and if it runs the bulky nasty plot set it can easy be killed or forced out before it can deal to much damage. A support set can used but Togekiss is already a magnet for set up sweepers so that would be a bad idé.
    The reason that the paraflinch set works best is because with paralyze it can fix it speed problem by paralyzing it's foe and then flinch it to death.

    What gives Togekiss trouble?
    Well Stealth rock is realy common and losing x25% of it's health each time it switches in makes it realy hard for Togekiss to shine. Ice, rock and electric attacks realy hinders it from living too long. Tyranitar is among the most annoying pokemons Togekiss knows, it have good special defence, it brings sandstorm to neutralize leftovers and it resits it's main stabs. Other tanks speically defenciv tanks can just turns it into a long stall war. The lack of resistances is a bit disappointing but the Ground immunity helps it pretty good.

    What advantages does Togekiss have over other pokemons?
    Togekiss greatest advantage is that is can take a hit and then paralyze something back with Body Slam. after that it can also hit hit hard with Air Slash coming of from that 120 base sp.atk. It can also frighten your opponent into holding back some if his frail sweepers as if he predicts wrong they can end up paralyzed and then flinched to death.

    Are they worth the team slot on your team or is it outclassed?
    I would make room for Togekiss on any team that it synergize good with. It's really worth a team slot if it can fill some niche och cover something without opening to many flaws in your team. Then I love playing with it as flying is a pretty good Sadly you can't slap it on any kind of team and hope for it to work as Togekiss needs a team where you have planed for using it.

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