1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Research Week Mk. II - Back in Black

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Furai, Jan 12, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,821
    Research Week - Ubers Edition!
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Duration:
    January 12th - January 26th
    Thanks to Texas Cloverleaf.


    Research Week looks to investigate Pokemon that have potential in Ubers, be it in stats, movepool, or supporting their team, to serve as an innovative choice in today's metagame. These are Pokemon that, for the most part, remain relatively untested. I've selected 3 Pokemon I feel, with help from everyone else, could see the rise of new and powerful sets, or the fulfilment of a particular niche. Perhaps the title is a bit of a misnomer; in fact, this installment (and likely future ones) of Research Week will continue as long as the discussion does, and that's where you all come in.

    If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning, such as damage calculations! Posting replays showcasing the pokemon you selected is especially encouraged.

    • Be open-minded, don't just say something is terrible and walk away; at least look into them and see what options they may be able to utilize!
    • Feel free to theorymon, but make it clear that you are theorymon'ing. At the end of the week, however, I want discussion to move towards how useful the Pokemon actually are in Uber, and what sets are effective on them.
    • Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's quite possible that something might have gone unnoticed or is missing.
    • Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon I choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. I want discussion to stay on topic about the 3 Pokemon we are "researching". Feel free to VM / PM me these suggestions, but don't expect the next research week to have all the Pokemon you suggested, or any of them.

    So, the 3 Pokemon we will be looking at this research week are Hydreigon, Mandibuzz, and Sableye.

    .[​IMG].[​IMG].[​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    How useful are these Pokemon in Uber? What sets can they run effectively? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon? What roles can they fill in teams? Are they worth the team slot on your team or is it outclassed?

    Discuss; the discussion that come out of this will surely be illuminating! Don't forget, you're not just limited to this topic to discuss these Pokemon. The #ubers irc channel is a perfectly suitable place to discuss them as well. Feel free to take the discussion to #pokemon as well. At the end of the discussion period, hope we can reach a general consensus on how good these Pokemon really are, and that we might find some interesting discoveries.

    Alright, now that that's out of the way we can get to the fun part of this. First up, Reasearch Week will now have a duration of roughly two weeks. The reason for this is as follows:
    The Research Week Challenge:
    • Users will use any number of the research week mons on their team
    • Users will attempt to reach as high as possible on the ladder with the Pokemon. Breaking past a Glicko2 rating of 1900 with a deviation of 75 on the ladder with your registered alt will earn you a spot on the Hall of Fame: Gold Class. Crossing a Glicko2 rating of 1800 with a deviation of 75 will secure you a Silver Class spot while a Glicko2 rating of 1700 with a deviation of 75 rating will earn you a Bronze Class spot. Post a screen-shot of your peak in order to achieve this, and a pastebin of your team.
    • Users will be expected to post their experiences with the pokemon they use, the teams they used, the problems they encoutered while trying to make the said pokemon work.
    • If a user does not participate in the discussion, he will be passed over.
    In order to participate in the challenge, simply post what Pokemon you're trying and your fresh new alt (yes, this is mandatory). Post battle logs, experiences with your team on the ladder, and generally how a Pokemon has worked out for you: past or present.

    It has been noticed that the last few Research Weeks have been basically reduced to ladder runs. This completely defeats the purpose of Research Week where the idea is NOT TO see if a person can get a high ladder rating with an underused Pokemon but to subjectively assess as a community, whether that particular Pokemon is viable in the tier and discover its potential in the tier. In order to remedy this, an archive is going to be created including the past Research Week, highlighting great posts. From this Research Week onward, the most thoughtful researcher will also be rewarded alongside the user with the highest ladder rating. The reward scheme will be the same.

    Rewards:

    Winning the Research Week challenge grants you prizes. Here's the rewarding system:
    • Winning one RW will grant you VOPs (+) in #ubers.
    • Winning two RW challenges will grant you a larger avatar.
    • Winning three RW challenges will grant you a Custom Title.
    • Winning five RW challenges will grant you HOPs (%) in #ubers.
    * You might get a Custom Title for winning two RW challenges, and a larger avatar for winning three.
    ** Getting HOPs in #ubers might take four wins, and maybe more, depending on our judgment if you deserve it or not.


    Furthermore, quality posting may be rewarded with larger avatars or custom titles, even if you did not win the challenge. So get out and post!​
    alt list (open)
    • Shining Latios - Chemical Reaction
    • EspyOwner - Glaceon
    • Hack He Must - Prank dat
    • Melee Mewtwo - Mewtwo4SSBB4
    • Faint - SWAGMAISTAH
    • .Robert - sableye the boss
    • Donkey - Amandibuzz
    • CherubAgent - PerfectPredator
    • Haruno - Sableye4tw
    • Enguarde - Histamine
    • Michael209 - MikeUbers
    • jackm - JDark
    • jonathanrp - Horse_ebooks
    • puregenius - graytail
    • Furai - 3 headed


    Research Week #6 Hall of Fame (open)
    Gold Class: 1900+
    1. Donkey: [​IMG]
    13/1/2013 - 1904±63
    [[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]]

    2. michael209: [​IMG]
    13/1/2013 - 1924±74
    [[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]]

    3. Melee Mewtwo: [​IMG]
    16/1/2013 - 1964±75
    [[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]]

    4. Faint: [​IMG]
    16/1/2013 - 2132±73
    TBA

    5. Enguarde: [​IMG]
    20/1/2013 - 1903±75
    [[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]]

    6. puregenius: [​IMG]
    22/1/2013 - 1901±74
    [[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]][[​IMG]]
    Silver Class: 1800-1899
    Currently none!​
    Bronze Class: 1700-1799
    Currrently none!​


    Past Research Weeks (open)
    [​IMG] Research Week #1
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] Research Week #2 - won by Fiction. with a rating of 1414!
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] Research Week #3 - won by Fiction. with a rating of 1391!
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] Research Week #4 - won by Fiction. with a rating of 1403!
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] Research Week #5 - won by Syrim with a rating of 1352!
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] Research Week #6 - won by Mr.lol with a rating of 1418!


    The challenge will take place on Pokemon Showdown! from this RW and on.
  2. Shining_Latios

    Shining_Latios

    Joined:
    May 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,425
    I will test out Sableye.

    Alt: Chemical Reaction
  3. EspyOwner

    EspyOwner

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2010
    Messages:
    1,928
    I'll try out Sableye, also.

    I'll be under Glaceon
  4. Hack He Must

    Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    846
    My intention will be to test all three hopefully. Alt name: Prank dat (I will get other alts for the other two mons).

    I will start with sableye.
  5. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    2,740
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4534739&postcount=35

    this post might give you guys some ideas as to how to use sableye and mandibuzz =]

    i can say something about them for the time being

    sableye is actually a decent check for extremekiller, +2 foul play does upwards of 60% to even arceus that invest in HP, no move from +2 silk scarf can KO, but watch out for earthquake. sableye can also stallbreak to an extent and having a priority taunt on a spinblocker is excellent.

    mandibuzz has a usable base 80 speed that can be invested to beat defensive base 90s and taunt them. dark / flying allows it to ghost arceus and phaze it, non LO nasty plot darkrai also can't do anything (presuming you let something else take the sleep), most support pokemon can't do anything to mandibuzz after it taunts them.
  6. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,000
    Here is what I think about Mandibuzz and Sableye. While Mandibuzz has poor defenses compared to Lugia, it still has passable bulk, more Special Defense than Lugia and physically bulkier than Kyurem-W. That huge HP stat really comes in handy, it can easily survive a Draco Meteor from Latios after Stealth Rock damage and Roost off the damage.

    Being part Dark type means it is immune to Psyshock and Psytrike, so it can beat Psychic Arceus as well and check Mewtwo. Ice Beam will 2HKO Mandibuzz sadly if Mewtwo is holding Life Orb which is standard. The most amazing thing about Mandibuzz is it gets Taunt, Whirlwind, Roost and some other support moves such Knock Off. Taunt wrecks defensive pokemon such as Forretress. Like Poppy mentioned, standard Ghost Arceus can never beat Mandibuzz, as it will soon succumb to Toxic damage, while Swords Dance Ghost Arceus fails to beat Mandibuzz as well because Brick Break or ExtremeSpeed is their best option. Chansey loses to Swords Dance Ghost Arceus, although it sucks. It isn't without flaws though, its offenses sucks, with Brave Bird, or Foul Play as its best option. Just like Heatran, Mandibuzz can be tailored to outspeed slow base 90s and phaze/Taunt them first before they move. Overcoat is a bonus because it is immune to sand and hail.

    Sableye got rejected in the past, but when I tried it again, it can do things no other Ubers can. Priority Will-O-Wisp cripples any physical attacker, besides a few such as Ho-Oh, who can be OHKOed by Foul Play after Stealth Rock. Unlike Giratina, Sableye isn't just sitting there and phaze, it can Taunt things, Recover(pretty damn good due to Prankster) and hurt things with Foul Play, most Ubers have high Attack stat too. Despite its shitty stats, Sableye should use Impish/Bold in Ubers, don't listen to Furry, Careful Sableye sucks, you are never going to wall any Special Attacker. With max Defense, Sableye can even beat Swords Dance Ghost and Ground Arceus by burning them and Foul Play accordingly. Not even Choice Band Kyurem-B can OHKO max Defense Sableye after the burn. Unable to block Tentacruel from spinning sucks, but you can always pair it with sun. Another cool thing is the opponent cannot simply setup to +6 due to Foul Play and burn cutting attack is not affected by Foul Play. You still hit them with your opponent's max Attack.

    The way I see Hydreigon, it is pretty shit in general. Why will you use Palkia or even Salamence over it as your revenge killer? U-turn? You do realize Hydreigon has a horrible Attack stat by Ubers standards, and since it is a Special Attacker, it will be forced to invest in Special Attack to even hurt things. STAB Draco Meteor is awesome but base 125 Special Attack sucks, it isn't like Heatran whose STAB can be boosted by the weather, does not resist ExtremeSpeed, also Hydreigon's Dark Pulse fails to OHKO Mewtwo. You are better off using other revenge killers such as Salamence who outruns Genesect, has Moxie and can spam Outrage way better due to the higher Attack stat. Levitate is good, and it is near unharmed by hazards, but you are only hitting with a piss weak U-turn to scout and you must remember you have to pack another check to Kyogre if you remove Palkia for it. Do you think it is worth it? I don't think so. The popular Genesect outruns you as well, so Hydreigon's life is useless in Ubers right now.

    Hydreigon isn't a cool wall breaker either, you have Zekrom, Rayquaza and even Kyurem-B who can all hit harder and break more things. It helps Hydreigon because you outrun the many base 90-95s but its way weaker than the other wall breakers and worse coverage. People say Hydreigon is versatile but it simply lacks the sheer stats to pull it off in Ubers, it has no good boosting move either.

    Which weather will you use Hydreigon in? Sun? We have Palkia, better stats in every way and more coverage moves, STAB Hydro Pump, Spacial Rend, Thunder and even Aura Sphere. Rain teams do not need Hydreigon either, because what does Hydreigon isn't really checking things most Scarf users can't, I guess Scarf Hydreigon in rain and check Ground Arceus with Surf lol. Sand teams have better choices, and Hydreigon is never a Kyogre check.
  7. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,046
    I've been having a lot of fun with CM Sableye in OU and TR's post makes me want to see if he is any good in ubers as well. (Although I won't use the CM set as the power jump from OU to Ubers makes it pretty clear that it won't have the bulk to cut it and Shadow Ball is stupidly weak.) Finding another viable spin blocker sounds exciting so I want to see for myself if he can pull it off.

    Alt: Mewtwo4SSB4

    Edit: So far Sableye's Foul Play and physical bulk is impressive. Sadly, it crumbles over to just about any special attack in Ubers so Mixed sets are nasty surprises and it means Sab has to be extra careful where he steps. (as special attacks are everywhere) Not being able to burn Ho-oh and Blaziken is also very disappointing.
  8. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,668
    i don't really understand your post at all. this is "research week," or what i like to call "build a team with 5 mons." sure, all of these pokemon have their "niche" but i'd rather have a spin blocker that i KNOW will work or have a pokemon that does whatever mandibuzz is supposed to do but better. you really can't say pokemon x does this better than y when we are are discussing mons that will almost always hinder you against an opponent, and will only have the surprise factor the first time you play an opponent.

    with that said, i've used hydreigon on a sun team before and i really liked it. does that mean palkia wouldn't have done a better job? no. but the combination of u-turn and levitate appealed to me. yes it's attack stat is shit, but u-turn is still an excellent move in general. and again, you are forgetting levitate. it grants it the ability to switch into a field full of hazards, or to avoid tspikes which palkia can not do. dark pulse may be weak and may not be able to ohko mewtwo, but palkia also fails to ohko mewtwo with scarf surf in the rain. dark pulse also has the small chance to flinch which can be game breaking, not to mention it has great coverage in ubers.

    with that being said i will be using hydreigon.
    alt: SWAGMAISTAH
  9. .Robert

    .Robert
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,474
    alt: sableye the boss
  10. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    528
    I'll be testing Tail Glow Manaphy in Sun.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    I'll actually be testing Mandibuzz on the alt Amandibuzz
  11. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent Yeah, well. The Dude abides
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    3,011
    Alt: PerfectPredator

    Going to be testing either Hydreigon or Sableye. I like how Ho-Oh will probably come in on Hydreigon only to possibly be nailed by Head Smash.
  12. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,046
    It's still just theorymon but Sableye looks like it pairs really well with Ferrothorn and Kyogre. The former sets up Spikes and beats the one spinner Sab loses to outside of Sun, Tentacruel, while sponging just a majority of the special attackers in Ubers. The latter cripples the un-burnable fire sweepers with Rain making them no longer a problem for the team.
  13. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,046
    The three images at the top are misleading, they aren't the choices. You can use Hydreigon, Sableye, or Mandibuzz in this round.

    Okay so I'm really digging this Kyogre, Ferro, Sab core. I got a rough team that's working nicely so far although I'm considering making some changes (like Genesect -> Terrakion)
    What I'm using (open)
    Kyogre @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SAtk
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Calm Mind
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Gyro Ball
    - Leech Seed
    - Protect
    - Spikes

    Sableye (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Foul Play
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Taunt

    Excadrill (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 176 HP / 60 Atk / 252 SDef / 20 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Swords Dance
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin

    Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Roost
    - Thunder

    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - U-turn
    - Iron Head
    - Explosion
    - Ice Beam
  14. Haruno

    Haruno

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,875
    Alt: Sableye4tw

    I'll be trying out sableye, though the kyogre, ferro and sableye core seems interesting.
  15. Enguarde

    Enguarde Such Misfortune
    is a Battle Server Moderator
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    617
    Alt: Histamine

    I'll attempt to give Mandibuzz a go :]
  16. michael209

    michael209

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    97
    Alt: MikeUbers

    Gonna try out Sableye
  17. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,000
    I wrote Levitate is an advantage, you just failed to notice it. Palkia OHKOes Mewtwo with Hydro Pump in rain, escaping Wobbuffet is a good thing but you won't see many of those and Palkia simply 2HKOes Wob with Hydro Pump anyway. I didn't say you shouldn't use Hydreigon, I just said it sucks when I used it. Head Smash nails Ho-Oh and since that is common these days, could be worth using.

    Stone Edge Hydreigon doesn't even OHKO Ho-Oh lol, you need Head Smash and even that can miss.

    EDIT: Sableye > Mandibuzz > Hydreigon

    Here's a log of Mandibuzz never coming out lol, but Gyarados + Sableye + Ferrothorn won the game. Go out and test your Sablethorn combinations!
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers8316577
  18. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    528
    After a long struggle against hax and anti-mandibuzz teams I finally got to the 1900 +/- 75 milestone.

    [​IMG]

    Here is the best game of the bunch vs my friend Mike: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers7725596 -- Surprisingly Mandibuzz clutches the game!

    Its 5 AM right now but I'll edit this post or make a new post tomorrow with my thoughts on the bird.

    Edit:

    At first glance Mandibuzz may seem like an inferior Lugia, lacking Lugia's bulk and her abilities pressure and multiscale that turn Lugia into one of the best walls and toxic shufflers in the game. After testing Mandibuzz extensively it's clear that this is not the case. Mandi's special bulk rivals Lugia's and her dark/flying typing allows her to wall some of the few threatening pokemon that Lugia cannot; notably Darkrai and Arceus-Ghost. Mandibuzz can confidently toxic stall all forms of Darkrai besides the rare Life Orb variant, which is still easily phased once by Mandi. She takes a measly 47.28 - 55.79% from +2 252 SpA Darkrai, meaning that after leftovers recovery (in any weather thanks to Overcoat), Mandibuzz will not be 2hkod. Unfortunately, this means that a pokemon will have to sponge a Dark Void but that is a small price to pay for the ability to check one of the most infamous offensive sweepers. Arceus-Ghost succumbs to toxic and also fails to 2hko Mandibuzz with +2 Focus Blast.

    Outside of it's strongest niche, Mandibuzz still has utility yet falls short in some areas. +2 252 SpA Ice Beams from Calm Mind Arceus forms deal 69.03 - 81.32%, and without Multiscale, Mandibuzz is a shaky check to forms like Arceus-Grass and Arceus-Fight that Lugia handles with ease. However, Mandibuzz still walls Palkia in the sun, as well as Latias/Latios lacking Thunder. She cannot be 2hkod by Spacial Rend (38.29 - 45.39%) or Fire Blast in sun (also 38.53 - 45.39%). With Substitute, Mandi can spread toxic and rack up hazard damage through phasing much like Lugia can.

    Taunt Mandibuzz (which can be ran instead of Substitute) shuts down defensive pokemon commonly found in the tier such as Giratina, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Chansey, and Blissey, but cannot prevent stealth rocks from Dialga and gets crushed by Stone Edge Groudon, unless you invest in speed which is a detriment to its bulk. A great partner to Mandibuzz is a fast Taunter who can help keep Stealth Rocks off the field. On my team, I chose Deoxys-D, which checks Arceus-Fight, Mewtwo, and Deoxys-A which all threaten Mandibuzz.

    I found Arceus-Grass and Forretress to also be great partners to Mandi. Arceus-Grass absorbs Thunders from Palkia in the rain, while Mandibuzz takes Fire Blasts in the Sun, and Forretress sponges Ice Beams and Toxic's Arceus-Grass. Bulky Kyogre helps deal with Physical threats like Extremekiller Arceus, Groudon, and Ho-oh, while Giratina-O Shadow Sneaks Mewtwo and Deoxys-A when they are in the KO range. With proper support, Mandibuzz can fill holes on stall oriented teams, performing its niche surprisingly well.


    Show Hide
    Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Overcoat
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Toxic
    - Whirlwind
    - Roost

    Kyogre @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Roar
    - Sleep Talk
    - Scald
    - Rest

    Arceus-Grass @ Meadow Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 248 HP / 84 SDef / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Judgment
    - Ice Beam
    - Recover

    Deoxys-D @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Taunt
    - Spikes
    - Toxic
    - Recover

    Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Rapid Spin
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Toxic
    - Payback

    Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Tail
  19. michael209

    michael209

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    97
    Alright so I used Sableye and it turned out quite nicely despite losing 3 in a row near the end.

    Here is the screenshot:
    [​IMG]

    And here is a reply of one of the better battles:
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers7747627

    The Sableye set i used is this:

    Sableye (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Foul Play
    - Taunt

    He's incredibly underrated in its ability to spinblock Forretress and Excadrill effectively as well as its main selling point - priority Will-O-Wisp. Here's a common scenario - you have say, Tyranitar in on an Excadrill and they obviously want to spin. Arceus Ghost could switch in here, but risks the Swords dance on the switch and a +2 EQ killing or nearly killing it. Sableye, however perfectly counters Excadrill no matter what it does (given WoW hits).

    Will-O-Wisp allows Sableye to cripple all physical attackers in Ubers except Ho-Oh and Blaziken while 2hkoing the former with Foul play. It is an incredible check to Arceus with Foul Play doing upwards of 70 percent after a +2, and OHKOs after +4. Reliable recovery in the form of +1 priority Recover goes along perfectly with Will-O-Wisp. If a Rayquaza is locked into Outrage, Sableye can Will-O-Wisp it the first turn and spam Recover and Foul play it to death later.

    While some may argue Sableye is still outclassed by the other bulky Uber ghosts, Sableye possesses priority Taunt to cripple so many threats in Ubers. It taunts the Sleep talk of Giratina/Kyogre, Taunts the Calm mind/Recover of Arceus formes - the defensive set beats Arceus Fight 1v1 - and even plays effective mindgames with Groudon leads. I try to lead off with Sableye against Sun teams and Taunt the Groudon first turn. If they switch Ho-Oh in on the taunt, I can simply go to T-tar and set up Rocks to get an early advantage. If they EQ, it only does around 49 percent from standard Groudon, missing out on the 2hko.

    As for supporters, I found that Ferrothorn and Tyranitar are great teammates for Sableye. Max/max special defense Ferrothorn takes most of the special hits aimed at Sableye, especially from Kyogre who often switches in. Tyranitar is for Fire-blasting Palkia/Dialga as well as Ho-Oh. These two supporters can play mindgames with the opponent with their unique resistances and immunities while the Sandstorm/Hazards slowly chips away at the opponent.

    So all in all, Sableye finds its niche in the Uber metagame with its Prankster ability which allows it to stop or cripple numerous threats as well as serving as an effective Spinblocker.

    Huge credit to my man Donkey for building most of the team.

    Show Hide
    Tyranitar (M) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Superpower
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit

    Excadrill (M) @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Iron Head
    - Rapid Spin

    Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Leech Seed
    - Spikes
    - Protect
    - Power Whip

    Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Brave Bird
    - Sacred Fire
    - Roost
    - Substitute

    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - U-turn
    - Explosion
    - Iron Head
    - Ice Beam

    Sableye (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Foul Play
    - Taunt
  20. jackm

    jackm

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    340
    I'll give this a try with Sableye.

    Alt: JDark
  21. jrp

    jrp wanker of the highest order

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    787
    hm, I'll give it a shot. Sableye.

    Alt: Horse_ebooks
  22. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,046
    Ladder (open)
    [​IMG]

    MJ Isn't Dead (open)

    Kyogre @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SAtk
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Calm Mind
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Gyro Ball
    - Leech Seed
    - Protect
    - Spikes

    Sableye (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Foul Play
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Taunt

    Excadrill (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 176 HP / 60 Atk / 252 SDef / 20 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Swords Dance
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin

    Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Roost
    - Thunder

    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Hasty Nature
    - U-turn
    - Iron Head
    - Explosion
    - Ice Beam

    I threw a few games to really stupid play so don't let the lowish rating mislead you into thinking Sableye is just a niche mon.

    Here's a replay to give you a taste of how Sableye works. I'm really bad about saving these things but this was one that showed Sableye doing his stuff against a solid team.
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers7756729

    Here's another good battle where I was playing a friend who had the advantage of already knowing my team (but I didn't know his) and having outplayed me. Sableye still pulls the game out of the hole, though, with his ability to check so many powerful threats.
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers8149770

    I personally feel that Sableye is more than decent or niche. He may have a low stat spread but his typing and ability gives him enough pros to make him a solid choice for any team in Ubers.

    The first thing that jumps out is that Sableye is a strong check/counter to EKiller Arceus. The only Arceus that has a shot at KOing Sableye are the ones packing EQ. These variants still need the slim 25% WoW miss to make a kill. However even after a WoW miss, Sableye still has enough HP (barring, sometimes, a LO EQ after SR) to go for one last WoW to prevent any sweep EKiller may be contemplating. Lum Berry EQ variants have the best match-up against Sableye as they have 43,75% chance to KO Sableye without a burn. Lets not forget that Foul Play does 68-80% to standard EKiller. (Even Skarm doesn't have a prefect match-up against EKiller as it loses to Overheat variants outside of Rain)
    Calcs (open)

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 253-299 (83.49 - 98.67%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb burned Arceus-Normal Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 127-149 (41.91 - 49.17%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 178-211 (58.74 - 69.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252+ Atk Arceus-Normal Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 195-230 (64.35 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252+ Atk burned Arceus-Normal Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 97-115 (32.01 - 37.95%) -- 1.03% chance to 3HKO

    +2 252+ Atk Arceus-Normal Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 137-162 (45.21 - 53.46%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO


    The second clear pro to Sableye is it's ability to spin block. Sableye is the best spin blocker in Ubers only losing to Tentacruel under rain. Sableye can shut down any hazards set-up from Forretress with Taunt as well beating Excadrill and Kabutops as long as WoW hits before Sableye bites +2 EQ from the former or a rain boosted Waterfall from the latter. It does this while having access to reliable recovery and a method of preventing Toxic once it is brought in. Giratina can not accomplish this without running a horribly inefficient set and Arceus Ghost can only 2HKO Forry under Rain and 3HKO Exca sans weather with Flamethrower. Oh, Sableye can also pop Excadrill's Substitutes with Foul Play while Giratina is left wishing he was using Roar.

    These two advantages are not the only things Sableye has going for it. Priority WoW is very useful in a tier where the physical sweepers are the most dangerous. Threats like Cloyster, Bisharp, Kabutops, SD Arceus, Rayquaza and some others are all major threats that can have a sweep cut short thanks to Sableye. As well as being a thorn in the side for HO teams, Sableye can also function as an excellent Stall breaker thanks to its priority Taunt. This move also allows Sableye to shut down Baton Pass chains without the fear of a pass to Espeon. (It can also screw over SmashPass if it makes manages to Taunt without Magic Coat being used) Foul Play is the standard choice for the attacking move as it allows Sableye to abuse the generally high attack stats found in ubers as its own. Toxic is another viable choice as it allows Sableye to hit special attackers that try to switch in with a crippling status as well.

    Sadly, Sableye has its drawbacks. Its pathetic special defense makes it easy for almost any special attacker to OHKO it which makes mix sets a particularly annoying surprise. Its typing also robs it of resistances in exchange its lack of weaknesses. (Although, its three immunities lets it beat Ekiller, Deo-A and ScarfTerrakion) Its reliance on burns to cripple physical attackers leave it open to Blaziken and Ho-Oh. (although Foul Play bites) These flaws make Ferrothorn an excellent partner for Sableye as it provides the resistances and SpDef the other lacks while Sableye, in exchange, ensures that Spikes aren't spun away. (with the exception of Tentacruel who, conveniently, can't spin against Ferrothorn) Kyogre helps complete this couple by providing Rain that reduces Ferrothorn's fire weakness and giving Sableye a puesdo-resist that lets his typing complement Ferrothorn's by resisting his Fire/Fighting weaknesses. (while crippling Blaziken and Ho-Oh)

    If that replay wasn't enough to show off Sab's skills here are some theorymon'd matchups of a SabThorn core against featured Ubers RMTs
    Show Hide
    Drown All: Sab doesn't do much here other than mess with Ferrothorn and Lugia. Ferrothorn is a bit more useful as it can troll Palkia/Ogre if they are choice locked in the right move and set up Spikes but it doesn't do much really significant on its own.

    Donkey's: Here we see the usefulness of Sableye. It beats TTar one on one as it can tank a Stone Edge + a burned one to cripple him for the game. (and he can Taunt SR if you feel like being risky) Excadrill gets spin blocked and crippled by WoW. Ferro, Gliscor, and Tina all get shut down by Taunt while being worn down by Foul Play and/or WoW. This makes Arceus Rock the only viable safe switch-in to Sableye and sadly he is easily walled and hit for SE damage from Ferrothorn's STAB attack + Leech Seed. (Although being burned is annoying for Ferrothorn)

    Unlimited Victory Works: Tyranitar is once again shut down by Sab except that this one lacks Lum Berry and can't 2HKO with a healthy Crunch. EKiller is hard countered by Sableye so he isn't a problem. Both Tops and Exca can't switch into the Sab lead and can't hope to sweep while he is still around. (although Aqua Jet bites) Kyogre is walled by Ferrothorn while Palkia has to predict the switch-in with Fire Blast.

    Can't Beat the Classics: Groudon is crippled by a burn as well as Tina-O. Rachi and Skarm are shut down by Taunt. Kyogre is once again beat by Ferrothorn. Latias is annoying with HP Fire so another member will have to deal with her.


    I enjoyed very much researching the viability of Sableye who continues to prove himself to be a strong team choice in every tier he's in. (I would very much like to write the Uber analysis for him if it hasn't been taken yet and his viability reconsidered.)
  23. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,668
    [​IMG]

    Results were as expected. I will update this post later with a more in depth look at Hydreigon. I was surprised at how easy it is hit top 10 on the ladder, since I'm currently sitting at #3 with my team. I'll pastebin that later as well, but will be excluding EV spreads.
  24. Enguarde

    Enguarde Such Misfortune
    is a Battle Server Moderator
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    617
    So I've been using Mandibuzz quite a bit now on various teams and finding it to be either be a useful niche, or a waste of a teamslot which has several times left me wishing I had another team member in place of it.

    Its hard to run Mandibuzz alongside Ho-oh, Lugia and other stealth rock weak mons since it also carries its own rocks weakness and the damage really begins to rack up thanks to the infamous phasing moves Dragon Tail and Roar which are seen on almost every Ubers team regardless of whether its attempting to play stall.

    Mandibuzz also seems to suffer from 4 moveslot syndrome since if you choose to run Foul Play as a way to answer direct offensive switch ins such as Ho-oh, Genesect (Somewhat), Rayquaza, Zekrom, and just have the ability to deal direct damage, (Brave Bird is weak and apparently so is Punishment even after the foe accumulates a few boosts.) you must forgo either Substitute, Toxic or Whirlwind. (Losing Roost really isn't an option).

    Something that really lets Mandibuzz down is its middling speed which allows it be burned or poisoned by Pokemon such as Giratina, Lugia and Gliscor which real wears down on Mandibuzz especially since tis designed to stall. It also means it can't stall out Ice Beams like Lugia can since it won't be able to Roost fast enough. And running Speed Evs isn't worth losing the bulk.

    Forgoing Taunt means it can become set up fodder for Spikers and Rapid Spin similar to Lugia and then it gets almost the same moves as the Great Wall, whilst not being not so great. And access to Taunt is one of the reasons to use it in Ubers, since users with a potentially long life span can become hard to come by.

    Since I'm comparing it to Lugia I should probably state now that it is not the Great Wall. Lugia can take strong hits from the Physical side thanks to Reflect and greater Physical bulk and obviously Lugia's Special Bulk is phenomenal. It also can't stall out Scared Fire's or Extremespeed. But after testing Multiple sets with move sets combining the aforementioned moves. I've found the set the Donkey had been using to be the most useful. Which is essentially making it a Mini Lugia with the ability to take on Arceus-Ghost and Darkrai.

    Unfortunately its Taunt is quite slow and cannot really Pressure those it taunts besides doing ok damage to Giratina with Foul Play, plus players wouldn't bring in Ferrothorn on Mandibuzz if they knew it had Taunt. And if you attempt to switch in Mandibuzz on any of the common defensive pokemon like Giratina, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Chansey, and supporters like Forretress, Deoxys Defence/Speed, Tentacruel, theres a high chance they'll have achieved what they needed to do through either setting up hazards, Toxicing Mandibuzz, Spinning on it. And if Mandibuzz loses hazard Support its going to find it very hard to deal damage against quite a few Pokemon since unless its attempting to defeat a specialised threat it should be racking up damage by forcing something to be phased out.

    When talking about how Mandibuzz has the ability to take on Arceus Ghost and Darkrai one on one while it is a cool ability it has when you start to think like that its almost as if you're thinking of building a team around it which isn't going to very useful. Unless its been made clear you're going for a full stall team ready to take on all threats in Ubers, such as in one of the great replays Trickroom posted.

    To beat Darkrai a scarfer( gogogo Genesect), Lum Berry holder or Sleep Talker generally does the trick. Unless it spells doom for itself by missing Dark Void. And Arceus Ghost is whittled away by being forced into Hazards (either by phasing or attempting to block a spin) and usually doesn't end up becoming too much of a problem unless you make poor plays allowing it to set up a few times. And I mean, if you really want a niche Arceus-Ghost counter Meloetta can be pretty nice!

    Although it seems I've been badmouthing the dark bird It does have some great and surprising bulk behind it! Being able to take powerful Draco Meteors unresisted, and most walling the likes of Palkia, Dialga, Reshiram, without their preferred weather and taking weather boosted moves to an extent it certainly can be a bulky bird! The ability overcoat also makes it nice on sand teams since it can avoid the negative affects of it which gives another tool for dealing damage and staying on top against Pokemon which don't find it to be a favourable weather. And due to the montrous attack stats roaming Ubers, Foul Play can certaintly be a coveted move by defensive Pokemon doing a number on the titans, as well as Dark being an excellent offensive type in Ubers.

    I'll try to add of replays of good matches using Mandibuzz later, and start laddering properly on the account I signed up for.

    Mandibuzz doing some good work.

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers8110458

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers8116330
  25. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,821
    All has been updated. Good job to Donkey, michael209, Melee Mewtwo, and Faint for making it into the Gold class! Glad to see we have all 3 Pokemon in the Hall of Fame :)
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)