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Research Week Mk. II - Out Here

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Trinitrotoluene, Jan 18, 2013.

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  1. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene ♫~ just this once, just one second that soon will be gone ~♫
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    Approved by the wonderful Harsha and Pocket.

    Research Week - OU Edition!
    Hosted by Trinitrotoluene and Novaray!
    [​IMG]__[​IMG]__[​IMG]__
    Duration:
    January 19 - February 2

    Research Week looks to investigate Pokemon that have potential in OU, be it in stats, movepool, or supporting their team, to serve as an innovative choice in today's metagame. These are Pokemon that, for the most part, remain relatively untested. Novaray and I (with the help of tab) selected 3 Pokemon we feel, with help from everyone else, could see the rise of new and powerful sets, or the fulfillment of a particular niche. Perhaps the title is a bit of a misnomer; in fact, this installment (and likely future ones) of Research Week will continue as long as the discussion does, and that's where you all come in.

    If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning, such as damage calculations! Posting replays showcasing the Pokemon you selected is especially encouraged.
    • Be open-minded, don't just say something is terrible and walk away; at least look into them and see what options they may be able to utilize!
    • Feel free to theorymon, but make it clear that you are theorymoning. At the end of the week, however, we want discussion to move towards how useful the Pokemon actually are in OU, and what sets are effective on them.
    • Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's quite possible that something might have gone unnoticed or is missing.
    • Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon we choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. We want discussion to stay on topic about the 3 Pokemon we are "researching." Feel free to VM / PM yours truly or Novaray these suggestions, but don't expect the next research week to have all the Pokemon you suggested, or any of them.

    So, the 3 Pokemon we will be looking at this research week are Scolipede, Sharpedo, and Nidoqueen!

    .[​IMG].[​IMG].[​IMG].
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Here are some questions to think about as this Research Week progresses:
    1. How useful are these Pokemon in OU?
    2. What sets can they run effectively?
    3. What gives them trouble?
    4. What advantages do they have over other Pokemon?
    5. What niche can this Pokemon fill in teams?
    6. Are they worth the team slot on your team or is it outclassed?

    Discuss; the discussion that come out of this will surely be illuminating! Don't forget, you're not just limited to this topic to discuss these Pokemon. The #pokemon IRC channel is a perfectly suitable place to discuss them as well. At the end of the discussion period, hope we can reach a general consensus on how good these Pokemon really are, and that we might find some interesting discoveries.

    Alright, now that that's out of the way we can get to the fun part of this. First up, Research Week will now have a duration of roughly two weeks. The reason for this is as follows:
    The Research Week Challenge:
    • Users will use any number of the research week mons on their team
    • Users will attempt to reach as high as possible on the ladder with the Pokemon. Surpassing a Glicko2 rating of 2100 with a deviation of 75 on the ladder with your registered alt will grant you a spot on the Hall of Fame: Platinum Class. Breaking past a Glicko2 rating of 2000 with a deviation of 75 on the ladder with your registered alt will earn you a spot on the Hall of Fame: Gold Class. Crossing a Glicko2 rating of 1950 with a deviation of 75 will secure you a Silver Class spot while a Glicko2 rating of 1900 with a deviation of 75 will earn you a Bronze Class spot. Post a screen-shot of your peak and an importable of your team in order to achieve this.
    • Users will be expected to post their experiences with the Pokemon they use, the teams they used, the problems they encountered while trying to make the said Pokemon work.
    • If a user does not participate in the discussion, he will be passed over.
    In order to participate in the challenge, simply post what Pokemon you're trying and your fresh new alt (yes, this is mandatory). Post battle logs, experiences with your team on the ladder, and generally how a Pokemon has worked out for you: past or present.

    It has been noticed that the last few Research Weeks have been basically reduced to ladder runs. This completely defeats the purpose of Research Week where the idea is NOT TO see if a person can get a high ladder rating with an underused Pokemon but to subjectively assess as a community, whether that particular Pokemon is viable in the tier and discover its potential in the tier. In order to remedy this, an archive is going to be created, highlighting great posts.

    Participants
    User and Alt List (open)
    Format will go like this: username - alt - ladder standing
    • Trinitrotoluene - Not a Terrakion - None
      • Research Subject(s): Sharpedo
    • BlankZero - Blank_Research, Blank_Research_2, Blank_Research_3 - None (for all 3)
      • Research Subject(s): Scolipede, Sharpedo, Nidoqueen (one per alt)
    • Lavos Spawn - To The Sun - None
      • Research Subject(s): Sharpedo
    • Lady Alex - I have duct tape - None
      • Research Subject(s): Sharpedo
    • Novaray - A$AP Q - None
      • Research Subject(s): Sharpedo
    • Intergalactic - gaslamp - None
      • Research Subject(s): Scolipede, Sharpedo
    • Magolor - Delibird4Ubers - None
      • Research Subject(s): Scolipede, Sharpedo
    • SubakSupreme - Monsey - None
      • Research Subject(s): Sharpedo
    • DrunkDemon - fetus in a jar - None
      • Research Subject(s): Nidoqueen
    • Electrolyte - Boron - None
      • Research Subject(s): Scolipede
    • Uomo Solo - Deaprylsux - None
      • Research Subject(s): Sharpedo
    • DetroitLolcat - Sir Cattington II - None
      • Research Subject(s): Sharpedo
    • The Unlucky One - A-Rio - None
      • Research Subject(s): Nidoqueen
    Hall of Fame
    Research Week Hall of Fame (open)
    Platinum Class: 2050+ and top 10
    Currently none​
    Gold Class: 2000-2049 and top 25
    Currently none!​
    Silver Class: 1950-1999 and top 50
    Currently none!​
    Bronze Class: 1900-1949 and top 100
    Currrently none!​
    Compendium of Great Posts
    Archives and Stuff (open)
    Currently nothing!​

    A proper sign-up sheet should look something like this:

    [BOX]Username: Trinitrotoluene
    Alt: Sneakman
    Ladder Standing: Nothing to see here.
    Research Subject(s): Scolipede, Sharpedo[/BOX]
    Copypasta for the lazy:

    HTML:
    [B]Username:[/B]
    [B]Alt:[/B]
    [B]Ladder Standing:[/B]
    [B]Research Subject(s):[/B]
    Also, we'd like to know which Research Week Pokemon you're testing, so boldfacing that would be extremely convenient. With that done, we look forward to see what you have to say! Also, tab is cute.

    np: Pendulum - Out Here
    [youtube]hBP2gdLRksk[/youtube]
  2. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    I have a lot to say about Sharpedo and Nidoqueen. I'm probably gonna write up a whole big thing tonight before laddering.
  3. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Cool questions to ponder.

    Another one one would be:

    "What niche can this Pokemon fill on your team or any team?"

    Some might argue that this question is asked by "What outclasses it" and "What advantages does it have other other Pokemon" but I'd argue it can be a little more focused.

    I know right now that Bug Gem Scolipede ruins Deo-D leads, while easily setting up Spikes and T-Spikes, so that will be interesting to test.
  4. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    About the duration,isn't there the possibility of a ladder result once the suspect voting ends?

    Sharpedo looks like a cool candidate since it can act as an amazing cleaner late-game.The abundance of priority moves in the meta are it's biggest roadblock imo.Although I haven't used it,I have faced it quite a few times and it gave me loads of trouble.Basically,I had to keep my Breloom alive till late game to avoid getting swept by it.It definitely can be dangerous threat in OU.

    However,I'm not sure about Scolipede's potential,after using it in UU.Not having Taunt is quite a big a setback to it.As a fast spiker lead,Frosslass sort of outclasses it with it's ghost typing to block spin and access to Taunt and Destiny Bond.Ability to beat Deo-D with Bug Gem is certainly a good trait,However if you mispredict the lead and say your opponent leads with their DDnite,you're likely to end up 6-5 against +1+1 Dnite with MS intact while you get only one layer of spikes or +1+1 Dnite with MS broken but with no spikes.You can switch but a free DD with MS intact is not much better.This doesn't apply just for Dnite but for all sweepers who avoid OHKO by Scolipede and can OHKO in return which is most of them.Finally,not using Focus sash can just cause you to waste a team slot for nothing.And using focus sash doesn't let you beat Deo-D.Of course you can switch out but switching out first turn kinda kills the concept of "suicide lead".Whie it's true you need to switch out traditional leads like Deo-D or SRTerrakion once in a while,but the case of scolipede is that you need to switch out from a lot of pokemons.Ranging from potentail scarfers to faster threats.One more thing is that Scolipede can neither prevent spinners like Forretress or Donphan from spinning nor can it block them getting their hazards up.So yea,I think it'll be tough to make it shine as a suicide lead.As for an SD sweeper,base 90 attack is rather low.
  5. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    Username: Lavos Spawn
    Alt: To The Sun
    Ladder Standing: not yet
    Research Subject(s): Sharpedo
  6. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Username: Lady Alex
    Alt: I have duct tape
    Ladder Standing: None
    Research Subject(s): Sharpedo
  7. Nova

    Nova Samsung Alpaca
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    honored to be hosting this with TNT and really excited to get some discussion going

    Username: Novaray
    Alt: A$AP Q
    Ladder Standing: None
    Research Subject(s): Sharpedo
  8. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    First thing I've noticed:

    Scolipede is completely and utterly outclassed by Scizor, not just in Typing and Attack, but in viability, it has STAB-Tech-Priority with Bullet Punch, and the ability to cover a lot of bases. It's not a bad thing. Bug-Gem Boost wrecks a lot of thing not expecting it, but it's got too-limited coverage to be overly useful.

    More thoughts to come with Sharpedo.
  9. waffles101

    waffles101

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    Scizor lacks spikes/tspikes which is the primary use of scolipede. This leaves it facing stiffer competition from forretress who is steel type and has access to SR
  10. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Fast spikes is a good role, but it does have some muscle too. I just feel it is outclassed very highly in OU.
  11. Intergalactic

    Intergalactic

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    I'll get in on this. I've used Sharpedo and Scolipede in OU before, so I at least have an idea of where to start here. Scolipede was always fun to use, for me anyway, and I really think it can do well right now.

    Username: Intergalactic
    Alt: gaslamp
    Ladder Standing: None.
    Research Subject(s): Scolipede and Sharpedo.
  12. Magolor

    Magolor

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    I would like to try this out, if anything it would renew my interest in OU for a bit.

    Username:Terumi Yuuki
    Alt:Toro
    Ladder standing:None
    Research subjects: Scolipiede and Sharpedo
  13. SubakSupreme

    SubakSupreme

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    Username: SubakSupreme
    Alt: Grilled custap
    Ladder Standing: none
    Research subject: Sharpedo
  14. Intergalactic

    Intergalactic

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    The few posts so far in the thread with any actual discussion make it clear that people seem to be seeing Scolipede as more fit for a fast Spiker role, which is obvious and fair enough. I'm going to be looking into something a little more defensive, however - not because of its defensive stats, they're decent at best, but because of its typing. Double resistance to Fighting-type attacks is a great thing to have, and with the decent-ish coverage that it has access to, always has the option of hitting back fairly hard.

    Of course, to beat Deoxys-D it's going to need a little Speed, and of course moderate Attack investment, but there's still a good few EVs to throw around if you're wanting it to just about outspeed fast spiker Deoxys-D sets. Throwing those into Defense means that it can take on some surprising physical threats. Adamant CB Terrakion fails to 3HKO with Close Combat, for example, while Scolipede can deal ~50% back with Earthquake - not great, but good enough. In the same vein, Breloom faces a similar challenge - Max Adamant Mach Punch does barely over 10% and Bullet Seed only does up to 44% with five consecutive hits. Additionally, it then faces a 2HKO from Megahorn - guaranteed OHKO if Bug Gem activates.

    I really don't think we should be looking at using Scolipede as a fast, do-or-die Spiker, and instead see it as a lot bulkier than it actually appears to be.
  15. DrunkDemon

    DrunkDemon

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    Username: DrunkDemon
    Alt: fetus in a jar
    Ladder Standing: none
    Research Subject(s): Nidoqueen
  16. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte I could hear the sirens sound
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    Sounds like it will be interesting.

    Username: Electrolyte
    Alt: Boron
    Ladder standing: 1502 (1734 Glicko2)
    Research subject: Scolipede
  17. Livio

    Livio
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Username: Uomo Solo
    Alt: Deaprylsux
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    Research Subject(s): Sharpedo
  18. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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    Username: DetroitLolcat
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    Ladder Standing: None.
    Research Subject(s): Sharpedo
  19. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte I could hear the sirens sound
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    I did some battling, and threw a random VoltTurn team together, and here's what my initial impressions about Scolipede are:

    [​IMG]
    I used this set (open)

    HakunaMatata
    Scolipede @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Swarm
    Jolly / 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Spikes / Megahorn / Earthquake / Swords Dance

    Spikes is your generic hazards. Scoli sets them up fast and reliably.
    Megahorn is STAB to hit Deo-D.
    EQ hits steels, rock types, and Fire types, making Scoli a decent anti Sun / Sand lead.
    SD is for early hole punching. After an SD, Scolipede becomes a lot more threatening, and can do a lot of damage to unprepared teams.

    I haven't been able to use SD that well yet, so I've considered some alternatives.


    What it's good at:

    ~I used it as a lead, and it was a pretty good Spike stacker. The cool thing about it is that it almost guarantees at least 2 layers of Spikes down, because it's so damn fast and Sash allows it to survive a hit and get one layer down. Because my opponents didn't usually know what I'd use Scolipede for, their confusion and 'scouting' of my set would also buy me a few turns to Spike stack. As a bonus, it can beat Espeon and Xatu easily, letting you setup without fear. It hates spinners though.

    ~It is a good anti lead against Hyper Offense. It 2HKO's Deo-D and Terrakion with the respectice SE move, and the sash lets you nail those KO's. It can also maim Lati@s and Celebi in an OHKO with Megahorn. It also 'beats' lead Loom, taking nothing from Bullet Seed / Mach Punch / Focus Punch / Seed Bomb. Here are some calcs you might find useful:

    252 Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 336-396 (111.25 - 131.12%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 368-434 (121.85 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 184-217 (70.22 - 82.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 448-532 (110.89 - 131.68%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 216-256 (61.71 - 73.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 186-220 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Tentacruel: 178-210 (48.9 - 57.69%) -- 53.13% chance to 2HKO

    As you can see, Scolipede is still relatively weak, and needs 2 hits to KO most notable threats- which is why I gave it a Sash and a lead position. It still has enough power to make its stand, however, making it extremely useful when paired with a Fighting type such as Keldeo, who would otherwise have problems with the above pokemon.


    Problems:

    ~I'll start this with a calc too:
    252 Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 324-384 (84.15 - 99.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Yes, that's it. It's so weak, it can't even OHKO Heatran with EQ (except maybe 6-7% of the time.) 90 Atk doesn't get you far, especially not if you're a fat bug. Scolipede NEEDS to rely on SE moves to do any damage whatsoever- and even still, it lacks the firepower to push past some more common walls.

    ~It is relatively useless after early game. This is because it totally hates hazards and can't take hits from the special side. It can function as a revenge killer, but again it's weak, so it can only revenge a few select pokemon. Plus, it's decently fast but it still gets outsped by nearly all Scarfers and Duggy / Alakazam / Starmie, all who can pretty much OHKO it. Oh, and don't forget that Megahirn has the tendency to miss when a hit is important.

    So, that basically sums up my initial impressions. Scoli has some uses and potential, but it also has significant drawbacks.
  20. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Said it much better than I ever did, although those calcs are impressive to say the least.

    I find Scolipede to be too frail and not muscly enough to rely thrive in OU, even with the things it does check, like Terrakion and Latios, which is pretty awesome, but not so awesome when compared to, say, Scizor anti-lead or even Forretress for putting up hazards.
  21. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Alright. First long post of the thread. Here we go on my thoughts on the pokes before i start laddering:


    Nidoqueen is probably the pokemon here that will be the least used. I can see it already for some reason. I decided to take it upon myself to use Nidoqueen to know as much about the pokemon as possible.

    Nidoqueen has an incredible use on a lot of teams as it can function as a secondary check to multiple pokemon in the metagame and one of the best Terrakion switch-ins in the game. I think the best way to find how a pokemon works in the metagame is to see how it matches up against the top pokemon in the metagame. Without further ado, lets get started naming notable pokemon that Nidoqueen helps against with the help of the OU Viability Ranking Thread.

    Before I say anything, this is the set i will be talking about:
    Nidoqueen (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 224 HP / 252 Def / 32 SAtk
    Modest Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Blizzard
    - Earth Power
    - Stealth Rock


    S Rank:
    [​IMG]
    Not much to say about this guy. Deoxys-D adds hazard support which is great due to Nidoqueen tending to cause a lot of switches. Nidoqueen doesn't really help kill Deo-D.
    [​IMG]
    Nidoqueen has an incredible feature being among the only pokemon that can switch-in to terrakion. With decent defense investment, Close Combat from a Scarf Terrakion is a 5HKO without Black Sludge. It also has STAB Sheer Force Life Orb boosted Earth Power to knock Terrakion out with minimal SpA investment. This is one of the best utilities Nidoqueen gives to the team and is among the main reasons why you should use her.

    A Rank:
    [​IMG]
    Nidoqueen can also beat +2 Techniloom 1v1. Helps if your main check to Breloom is not the most reliable.
    [​IMG]
    Nidoqueen lives +1 Dragonite Outrage and kills it with Ice Beam. Can't switch in repeatedly as it doesn't have recovery.
    [​IMG]
    Kills Ferrothorn with Fire Blast and Ferro can't do anything to it in return. If it switches out, its not hard to nail the switch-in with a SE move due to Nidoqueen's coverage.
    [​IMG]
    Lives any non-Sun/Flash Fire boosted movse from offensive variants and OHKO's with Earth Power. Beats it 1v1. Heatran can't switch in either.
    [​IMG]
    Nidoqueen is also helpful against Jirachi. SpD variants of Jirachi get 2HKO'd by Earth Power. This shows Nidoqueen's amazing combination of bulk and wallbreaking capabilities.​


    In conclusion. Nidoqueen is a useful pokemon in situations. It checks a lot of top threats in the metagame and also has a decent wallbreaking capabilities. It can be considered as something like Hydreigon who comes in on resisted/unSTABed hits and nails the switch in hard. Unlike Nidoking, it has soid bulk letting it switch in to the aformentioned pokemon a couple of times. It does suffer from having a hard time combating against rain but that issue may be fixed. Another sad thing about Nidoqueen is its lack of reliable recovery. This makes partners like WishPassers exceptional. Another good partner is Abomasnow. Abomasnow deals with rain and its Scarf variant deals with a majority of problems that Nidoqueen have thanks to its coverage. Hail also allows it to use 100% accurate Blizzards in the hail.

    That was among the longest posts I have done. Anyway, time to get to the ladder
    Username: The Unlucky One
    Alt: Fat Princess, Marvel 3
    Ladder Standing:1984 ± 116 Ratio is 11-1
    Research Subjects: Sharpedo, Nidoqueen
    Swapped alt, hax is terrible. Almost got my dev down, then got Flinched 19 times in a row to death and i dropped down down down
  22. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene ♫~ just this once, just one second that soon will be gone ~♫
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    I should stop using the OP as a way to sneak my application in (even though I'm one of the hosts for this Research Week).

    Username: Trinitrotoluene
    Alt: Not a Terrakion
    Ladder Standing: 1893 (ACRE), 2007 ± 82 (Glicko2). W/L ratio: 17:6. Confirmation.
    Research Subject(s): Sharpedo
  23. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte I could hear the sirens sound
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    Oh, AWESOME NEW BREAKTHROUGH-

    Scolipede gets Endeavor.

    That makes my Sash set all the more viable- as you can now kill off one mon early, 2HKO another, and then bring a third down to 1% HP. I tried it in battle, and it worked pretty well:

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou8109560

    My team was horrible, I know, I don't need comments. It was purely thrown together to see how Scolipede would work, and it succeed there. I was able to use Megahorn to OHKO the Latios, and then Endeavor to lower Skarm's health down to easy KO range. Not bad for a single pokemon. With Endeavor, Scolipede becomes a much better lead.

    This battle also sort of shows how Scolipede can support Fighting types such as Keldeo- shown by the easy late game clean up. Again, the battle wasn't all that great since there were plenty of opportunities for my opponent to possibly defeat me (such as sending instead of Rotom-W in my Scizor) but it does clearly show the effectiveness of Scolipede.

    Here's my set again:

    [​IMG]

    Scolipede @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Swarm
    Jolly / 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Spikes / Megahorn / Earthquake / Endeavor

    The speed evs can be tweaked so that they barely outspeed max spe Lati@s, or even Tornadus-I, and the evs can be moved instead to HP or a defensive stat. Since this Scolipede is generally come-in-setup-die, a tiny bit of bulk isn't that necessary. Still, it could make a difference

    EDIT: Another battle :
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou8150431

    this one is with a better team. I was able to OHKO his Latios, which was stopping Latias / Loom, as well as set a layer of spikes, which was infinitely helpful, and then bring politoed down to 1%, all the while baiting in Rotom / Tenta for Loom to set up on. In the end, Latias was able to pull off a clean up.
  24. Dark Nikuman

    Dark Nikuman

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    Username: Dark Nikuman
    Alt: The Lucky Noob
    Ladder Standing: User: theluckynoob
    This user has not played any ladder games yet.

    Research Subject(s): Sharpedo
  25. TIO

    TIO

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    Username: TIO
    Alt: Avnomke
    Ladder Standing: Nope.png
    Research Subject: Nidoqueen, Scolipede
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