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Research Week Mk. III #1

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by Mazz, Mar 1, 2013.

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  1. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    Approved by RT.

    Welcome, UUers! It's time for a fresh installment of Research Group!

    Keep the following things in mind during every Research Group:
    • Be open-minded, don't just say something is terrible and walk away; look at its stats, movepool, and typing and think something up!
    • Feel free to theorymon early in the research period, but make it clear you're doing so. Later in the period though, you will be expected to back up your posts with hard evidence like logs, actual sets, perhaps even teams.
    • Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's very likely that something has gone unnoticed.
    • Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon I choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. Feel free to VM / PM me these suggestions, but don't expect me to always listen to you.

    This Week's Research Pokemon:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Poliwrath | Zoroark | Escavalier

    How useful are these Pokemon in UU? What sets can they run effectively? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon? How well do they work in the metagame? If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning. Remember, discussion is not limited to this topic, you are encouraged to talk about these Pokemon in #genvuu as well!

    The Research Group Challenge:

    In order to participate you must do the following:
    • Send me a PM / post here or on IRC with a fresh alt and the name(s) of the Pokemon you will be using.
    • Use at least one of the Pokemon being researched.
    • Post your experiences with the Pokemon you're using, participate in the discussion!

    The first stage of the challenge will be very relaxed so theorymon will be allowed as long as its backed up by good reasoning. During the later stage, discussion will be expected to be backed up by hard evidence, such as teams, actual sets, and logs. The winner of the challenge will be the person who has the highest ladder ranking on the Pokemon Showdown UU ladder on the alt they registered at the time the challenge ends. If you win, you will receive temporary hops on #genvuu, but you may only claim your prize if you actually participated in the discussion. Winners will also receive a permanent spot in the Underused Hall Of Fame!

    Current Participants:
    -Hyperbeem (HyperRG)
    -TPO3 (TPO9)
    -PK Gaming (SACRED STONES)
    -Warb (Worb)
    -Relaunched (Relaunched)
  2. Ezio

    Ezio .
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    Alt: HyperRG

    I'm going to explore the use of Zoroark on offensive teams with a Heracross/Zoroark duo. In theory, Zoroark will be able to smash Pokemon like Cofagrigus and Gligar while disguised as Heracross. My strategy is probably going to be primarily pulling out the real Heracross and switching out after the opponent brings in their Heracross counter a couple times to lull them into a false sense of security; after a few rounds of this I'll use Zoroark in a Heracross disguise to eliminate the counter opening the way for a Heracross sweep. Unfortunately this has a lot of limitations, first of all Zoroark has to be at the same HP% and Heracross. For feasible purposes, this means both have to be at full health. Entry hazards will be a blow to this and Rapid Spinners suck in general, so I'm going to most likely include Xatu to help with this issue. I have no idea as of yet what Pokemon are the most effective in tandem with this core so I'll be laddering with several different combinations to figure out a team that works.
  3. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    Alt: TPO9
    Poktmon Testing: Escavalier

    I remember back in the day when this was a top-level threat in UU. Needs more love :(
  4. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

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    Alt: SACRED STONES
    Pokemon: Zoroark

    I'm going to try out Zoroark on a bunch of different team styles. I already "know" what it can do, so this is just for everyone else.
  5. Warb

    Warb

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    Alt: Worb
    Pokémon: Escavalier

    Finally someting else besides "Dark Horse Project" (aka "Warb is not allowed to use Crobat Project").
    Trying out Escavalier. I've been testing it for a bit on another alt with more or less the same team I've top5'd with. Let's see how this one turns out.
  6. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    Just posting as a reminder, but you are allowed to theorymon about this week's selection. What roles do they fill? How effective are they? Feel free to open up some discussion.
  7. relaunched

    relaunched

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    Alt: relaunched (yes, this has no UU games on it)
    Pokemon: Escavalier

    I'll try out defensive Escavalier. It seems like it would be really good because it has strong defenses and isn't setup bait either.
  8. Reaver12

    Reaver12

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    Probably not gonna participate this week, but I've used Poliwrath in the past and it was pretty good. The ability to switch into Scalds with impunity was great, and since Focus Punch hits before Roar there wasn't much of anything that bulky waters could do back except Toxic. So that being said he's a pretty great way to wrack up damage on the likes of Blastoise, Suicune, and Milotic... and a great way to beat Empoleon. The set I used was;

    Poliwrath @ Leftovers
    Adamant
    212 HP, 252 Att, 44 SpD
    -Substituse
    -Focus Punch
    -Waterfall
    -Ice Punch

    I didn't really see much point in investing in speed. Not using Encore meant that there wasn't any real reason to try to outspeed anything, especially since the plan is to switch in on water moves and do damage with Focus Punch on the Roar/Dragon Tail or the switch. The Special Defense EVs mean that the Porygons don't gain a boost if they get a safe switch in when Poliwrath's not behind a Sub. Waterfall for STAB obviously, and Ice Punch for the likes of Crobat, Zapdos, and Roserade.
  9. Warb

    Warb

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    This is rough draft of my team at the moment:

    Show Hide
    Escavalier @ Choice Band
    Trait: Shell Armor
    EVs: 88 Spd / 4 SDef / 252 Atk / 164 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Iron Head
    - Megahorn
    - Pursuit
    - Return

    Houndoom @ Life Orb
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SAtk
    Hasty Nature
    - Sucker Punch
    - Pursuit
    - Fire Blast
    - Crunch

    Crobat @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Inner Focus
    EVs: 176 HP / 136 Spd / 192 Atk / 4 SDef
    Jolly Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Taunt
    - U-turn
    - Roost

    Rhyperior @ Leftovers
    Trait: Solid Rock
    EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 242 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Rock Blast
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Tail

    Meloetta @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hyper Voice
    - U-turn
    - Psychic

    Mienshao @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Reckless
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Jolly Nature
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - U-turn
    - Stone Edge
    - Aerial Ace



    What I specifically want to do is to lure in those base 30 speed defensive behemoths (Snorlax, Slowbro, Cofagrigus ... and Bronzong because is runs minimum speed), double switch or U-Turn into Escavalier, and then proceed kill something. My main problems with this team at the moment are:

    1. Luring in Snorlax: because Meloetta could very well be Mixed, people don't directly switch in their Snorlax. So the fatass is not reliably lured in.

    2. Switching into Water moves: I HATE SCALD WITH A BURNING PASSION! Meloetta is just filler right now, bulky specs is good enough to take hits from most special attackers, AND it has acces to U-turn which allows me to do some work with the whole trapping thing. But as it stands right now, it is the only Pokemon I can switch into water moves ... which is not good.

    I feel like Meloetta -> Shaymin would be the right decision here (unless I start over from scratch), but then my team would look exactly like this one again. (Then again, that was not a bad team at all, so maybe I should actually try it LOL)

    ---

    As for my experience with Excavalier so far: Mindlessly clicking Megahorn is pretty goddamn fun. Nothing really wants to take it, and the few defensive Pokes that can should be handled by the rest of the team somehow.
    Cofagrigus can tank those hits pretty easily though (look at the calcs a few posts further below ...), that is why I believe luring it in and then pursuiting it is the best way to deal with it.

    The scenario I'm about to describe occured like 4 times already (I've played around 15 matches so far):

    -Mienshao is out on the field and threatens to KO something
    -Enemy Cofagrigus switches in to absorb the hit
    -Mienshao U-Turns into Crobat
    -Crobat uses Taunt to scout for Trick Room or WoW (it has always been Trick Room so far)
    -Crobat U-Turns out into Escavalier, it takes around 20% from Shadow Ball
    -Escavalier uses Pursuit and deals around 75% to OTR Cofagrigus (I haven't encountered defensive Cofagirgus once so far)
    -Cofagrigus can't wall shit for the rest of the match

    That's all I have to share for now, I'll probably swap in Shaymin and see how that one goes, then report in later. Or I just build something new from scratch, dunno yet.
  10. vigi

    vigi

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    Why would cofa switch out from esca, who can't even tickle 252/0 cofa?
  11. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    252+ CB Adamant Escavalier Iron Head vs 252 HP/4 Def Quiet Cofagrigus: 50-59.06%

    Cofag would always be 2HKO'd by Iron Head, while +2 Cofag fails to 2HKO in response.

    252 +2 Quiet Cofagrigus HP Fighting vs 248 HP/8 SpDef Adamant Escavalier: 37.61-44.31%

    And since Cofag runs 0 Speed IVs if it is the OTR set, it actually fails to outspeed Escavalier, despite it's pitiful base 30 speed unless Trick Room is up. That would give OTR Cofag enough of a reason to switch out.

    @Warb: I can't say I understand the Speed EVs on Escavalier? Why don't you just run 248 HP/8 SpDef like a normal one?
  12. Warb

    Warb

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    Assuming following sets:

    Escavalier: 164 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 88 Spe | Adamant | Choice Band
    vs
    Cofagrigus: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA | 30 Atk IVs / 30 Def IVs / 30 SpA IVs / 2 Spe IVs | Quiet | Leftovers

    252Atk Choice Band Swarm Escavalier (+Atk) Megahorn vs 248HP/8Def Leftovers Cofagrigus (Neutral): 37% - 44% (120 - 141 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    252Atk Choice Band Swarm Escavalier (+Atk) Iron Head vs 248HP/8Def Leftovers Cofagrigus (Neutral): 50% - 59% (160 - 189 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252Atk Choice Band Swarm Escavalier (+Atk) Pursuit vs 248HP/8Def Leftovers switching Cofagrigus (Neutral): 67% - 78% (214 - 252 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk Cofagrigus (+SAtk) Shadow Ball vs 164HP/4SpDef Escavalier (Neutral): 16% - 20% (54 - 65 HP). Guaranteed 6HKO.

    252SpAtk Cofagrigus (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Fighting) vs 164HP/4SpDef Escavalier (Neutral): 20% - 23% (65 - 77 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.


    That is definitely more than ticklish.

    edit:

    Simply to outspeed base 30 Speed pokes. Most importantly Specs Slowbro who can roast any Escavalier with Fire Blast or just threaten with Scald (in case it is the defensive variant). While 84 Spe would be enough, Specs Slowbro does run 4 Spe to outspeed other neutral base 30's, thus resulting in a tie with 84 Spe Escavalier. (I lost a game once due to that speed tie, because I had 84 Spe instead of 88 back then)
    Also it is f*cking hilarious when people switch in their Snorlax (assuming not a 12 Spe variant) into my weakened Escavalier, eating a Megahorn in the process and dying without having done anything.
  13. EspeonX

    EspeonX

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    I haven't played UU for some time, but I have had experience with using CB Escavalier. It is probably the best set to run on it, as you can't resist smashing stuff with that juicy 135 base attack. I ran:

    [​IMG] @ Choice Band
    Trait: Swarm
    Nature: Adamant
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk/ 8 Def
    - Megahorn
    - Iron Head
    - Return
    - Pursuit

    Pretty much standard, but of course if I used this again, I'd probably run 88 Spe for Slowbro. In my experience, it didn't have too much trouble smashing stuff, even if it was faster than him. I also ran Return as it has nice neutral coverage for when it would be risky to use anything else, but most of the time, you'd be going for Megahorn/Iron Head/Pursuit. Return = filler in most scenarios, other than for smashing stuff like Swampert/Suicune/Zapdos (but Zapdos gets Heat Wave, and even then I rarely saw it).

    I used it alongside Arcanine, which obviously worked well to absorb Chandelure's Fire Blast and other Fire moves. I used Adamant LO Arcanine with Flare Blitz/Wild Charge/Extremespeed/Morning Sun, and it was alright as a partner, but I think it had trouble with certain pokemon that Escavalier could not handle well either. Not the best synergy either.
  14. Warb

    Warb

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    Ok, I've been testing a new team with Escavalier which is:
    Show Hide

    Escavalier @ Choice Band
    Trait: Shell Armor
    EVs: 164 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 88 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Megahorn
    - Pursuit
    - Iron Head
    - Sleep Talk

    Shaymin @ Life Orb
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Seed Flare
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Synthesis

    Umbreon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
    Careful Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Baton Pass
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Foul Play

    Mienshao @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Reckless
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Jolly Nature
    - U-turn
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Stone Edge
    - Aerial Ace

    Houndoom @ Life Orb
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Hasty Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Pursuit
    - Sucker Punch
    - Crunch

    Gligar @ Eviolite
    Trait: Immunity
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Roost
    - Stealth Rock
    - U-turn
    - Earthquake



    Result ... mixed

    The main problem here is probably the fact that I'm now in a range where I get matched against actually decent players. Most of them used Froslass ... which completely wrecks this team.

    I kinda wanted to play Crobat over Gligar, but then Heracross / Mienshao will become harder to deal with. So my initial plan of momentum grabbing and all that jazz becomes totally irrelevant in the face of the spikestacking frosty ghost bitch.

    Back to the drawing board...
  15. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    I'll leave this open for 3 more days for people to post any more experiences, their ladder rankings, and any other comments.

    That being said, this research week is now over!
  16. -Manu-

    -Manu-

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    Alt : _Obi_Wan_

    Pokemon : Zoroak and Escavalier.
  17. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    Application denied. This research week is now closed. The thread remains open only for current participants to report whatever they may yet have to add and post their ladder rankings so that a "winner" may be determined. Stay tuned, as this week's research week should be up shortly.
  18. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    Despite me posting to ask for rankings, nobody has bothered to do so, so this research week will end without a winner. I ask that throughout the week that you do actually post your rankings to showcase how well your team is doing. Even if it seems to be a low ranking, post it, as it may land you a top 3 spot.

    That said, this research week is officially closed.
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