RW4 Cookie
Gastrodon represent \o/
Gastrodon represent \o/
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Research Week: SM Edition [Done]
- Thread starter Ark
- Start date
- Status
Hopefully I'll do better this time
RW4 Fal testing Cresselia.
RW4 Fal testing Cresselia.
RW4 Mac3
Don't count me toward ladder I accidenly used a team without either.
Testing Gastro & Cress
I've honestly found both mons bad in this UU meta as Gastro doesn't do as much as it does in lets say OU and the amount of grass types on almost every team or at least grass coverage makes it less useful. It is generally outclassed by Quagsire on stall and Swampert also gets rocks and is more powerful so it gets outlassed there too. The only difference I see is that it gets water absorb which makes it able to check Volcanion if they don't have HP Grass or Bloom Doom which isn't very likely.
Cress has been dissapointing as well as Bisharp, Scizor and other dark types are so frequent it hardly gets a chance to set-up. I've tried quite a few different sets, SubCM Z-Tox, CM Z-Tox with Moonlight and also just normal CM, Moonlight, Moonblast, Psyshock but even this set is getting is getting pressured before it can set-up enough boosts.
Haven't tested Haxorus yet but might do that as it hasn't taken me much time to get these done while I already have a Haxorus team built.
Don't count me toward ladder I accidenly used a team without either.
Testing Gastro & Cress
I've honestly found both mons bad in this UU meta as Gastro doesn't do as much as it does in lets say OU and the amount of grass types on almost every team or at least grass coverage makes it less useful. It is generally outclassed by Quagsire on stall and Swampert also gets rocks and is more powerful so it gets outlassed there too. The only difference I see is that it gets water absorb which makes it able to check Volcanion if they don't have HP Grass or Bloom Doom which isn't very likely.
Cress has been dissapointing as well as Bisharp, Scizor and other dark types are so frequent it hardly gets a chance to set-up. I've tried quite a few different sets, SubCM Z-Tox, CM Z-Tox with Moonlight and also just normal CM, Moonlight, Moonblast, Psyshock but even this set is getting is getting pressured before it can set-up enough boosts.
Haven't tested Haxorus yet but might do that as it hasn't taken me much time to get these done while I already have a Haxorus team built.
Last edited:
RW4 Chief
I'll try Gastrodon
I'll try Gastrodon
OK so my results...
Cresselia is honestly not very good. Yes it is extremely bulky, but its lack of power often leaves it set up fodder. Also, pure walls have a much harder time what with the general power creep. The nerf to Thunder Wave makes it a less effective check to fast offensive teams, and if you run Toxic you can't scratch Steel types. I tried a dual Screens set and a Calm Mind set. Sadly I don't have any replays, but honestly neither was especially good. Ninetales-A can set up Aurora Veil so only needs one slot, and between Necrozma and Reuniclus it's more or less outclassed as a Calm Mind user. It needs way more boosts to actually hit hard, and it can't scratch Steel types.
Overall, I couldn't recommend Cresselia to anyone.
Cresselia is honestly not very good. Yes it is extremely bulky, but its lack of power often leaves it set up fodder. Also, pure walls have a much harder time what with the general power creep. The nerf to Thunder Wave makes it a less effective check to fast offensive teams, and if you run Toxic you can't scratch Steel types. I tried a dual Screens set and a Calm Mind set. Sadly I don't have any replays, but honestly neither was especially good. Ninetales-A can set up Aurora Veil so only needs one slot, and between Necrozma and Reuniclus it's more or less outclassed as a Calm Mind user. It needs way more boosts to actually hit hard, and it can't scratch Steel types.
Overall, I couldn't recommend Cresselia to anyone.
I'm up to 1220 on the ladder, which is the highest I've gotten...ever, so lemme give my two cents before I go on an inevitable losing streak.
I've been having a lot of fun with Haxorus. I'm using a Dragon Dance set currently because I enjoy the ability to outspeed Mega-Aero (by one point!) after a single boost and still pack on plenty of Adamant power. Keeping Haxorus healthy enough to act as late-game cleanup has been my key to victory several times. He's bulky enough to take at least one neutral hit, and if your opponent's team is weakened and he gets to Dance, it's gg.
Dual Chop has the advantage of breaking Sashes and Subs...and that's kinda it. The imperfect accuracy hasn't bitten me yet, but I've had a few people ask why I'm using it over Dragon Claw or Outrage. It's definitely a viable option.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-542032356 -- Haxorus breaks through Galvantula's Sash so all it gets is Webs and dies. Head Smash miss was lame.and then i forgot what umbreon does :V
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-542600285 -- an example of Haxorus tanking a MegAero SE and busting through it to get rid of a big threat
I've been having a lot of fun with Haxorus. I'm using a Dragon Dance set currently because I enjoy the ability to outspeed Mega-Aero (by one point!) after a single boost and still pack on plenty of Adamant power. Keeping Haxorus healthy enough to act as late-game cleanup has been my key to victory several times. He's bulky enough to take at least one neutral hit, and if your opponent's team is weakened and he gets to Dance, it's gg.
Dual Chop has the advantage of breaking Sashes and Subs...and that's kinda it. The imperfect accuracy hasn't bitten me yet, but I've had a few people ask why I'm using it over Dragon Claw or Outrage. It's definitely a viable option.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-542032356 -- Haxorus breaks through Galvantula's Sash so all it gets is Webs and dies. Head Smash miss was lame.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-542600285 -- an example of Haxorus tanking a MegAero SE and busting through it to get rid of a big threat
so about haxorus
i exclusively tested dd with dual chop bc i dont see a point in dropping accuracy on a sd variant which is supposed to break bulkier stuff that doesnt carry sash anyway. i played a good amount of games with different styles of teams and haxorus definitely did best in ho. the set i played with was dual chop/eq/poison jab/dd jolly with a LO equipped bc dual chop, same as dclaw, is ridiculously weak otherwise. im usually more of an advocate of z-move haxorus be it with dragonium-z outrage or steelium-z iron tail but in this case LO was the only appropriate choice due to the power issue, i felt. unfortunately, dual chop never ever came in clutch for me in the entirety of the matches i played, i guess people left their sash zams at home when i laddered rip. more often than expected i would actually get into trouble using it bc of its shitty accuraccy which really started to annoy me at some point. overall dual chomper didnt do it for me bc of its low base power (i like using haxorus for breaking more than i like it for sweeping which is why i prefer outrage like 95% of the time) and accuracy issues. another thing i found annoying about the double hit mechanic is that you take 2x helmet dmg (ladder seems to love this item on the most random mons smh) which equals 32% + the residual orb dmg + a good amount of dmg on the turn you set up. i dont have any replays bc dual chop didnt do anything noteworthy for me but if i come across a sash mon any time soon i'll edit the replay into this post.
tbh i wish i tested sth else lol but yeah dual chop isnt worth it from my experience unless youre like SUPER weak to sash zam
i exclusively tested dd with dual chop bc i dont see a point in dropping accuracy on a sd variant which is supposed to break bulkier stuff that doesnt carry sash anyway. i played a good amount of games with different styles of teams and haxorus definitely did best in ho. the set i played with was dual chop/eq/poison jab/dd jolly with a LO equipped bc dual chop, same as dclaw, is ridiculously weak otherwise. im usually more of an advocate of z-move haxorus be it with dragonium-z outrage or steelium-z iron tail but in this case LO was the only appropriate choice due to the power issue, i felt. unfortunately, dual chop never ever came in clutch for me in the entirety of the matches i played, i guess people left their sash zams at home when i laddered rip. more often than expected i would actually get into trouble using it bc of its shitty accuraccy which really started to annoy me at some point. overall dual chomper didnt do it for me bc of its low base power (i like using haxorus for breaking more than i like it for sweeping which is why i prefer outrage like 95% of the time) and accuracy issues. another thing i found annoying about the double hit mechanic is that you take 2x helmet dmg (ladder seems to love this item on the most random mons smh) which equals 32% + the residual orb dmg + a good amount of dmg on the turn you set up. i dont have any replays bc dual chop didnt do anything noteworthy for me but if i come across a sash mon any time soon i'll edit the replay into this post.
tbh i wish i tested sth else lol but yeah dual chop isnt worth it from my experience unless youre like SUPER weak to sash zam
And with that, time is up and I'm back. Lord Esche had the highest ladder score this week, so congratulations to them for winning!
To summarize the week, let's start with Cresselia. To put it short, Cresselia was a disappointment. As Ov3r Ac3 and ChrystalFalchion have reported, it did not find many opportunities to decide a game. Despite its great defensive stats, the amount of checks in the metagame and its passiveness made it a liability.. Many of its ORAS staple sets failed and even Z-moves could not make up for its flaws. The only set I haven't seen any reports on is Lunar Dance, which saddens me a bit but that is understandable when it faces competition in the form of Healing Wish Latias.
Ov3r Ac3 also reports that Gastrodon has not been performing, which surprises me as it has been performing for me personally and a few others. Nevertheless, I do concede that Gastrodon is outclassed on stall teams by Quagsire and that Swampert is a good fit for many teams due to its access to Stealth Rock. What makes Gastrodon shine, in comparison to Quagsire, is its higher HP and Special Defense as well as the higher Special Attack allowing for stronger Scalds. It is rather hard to build with, though.
What we've learned about Haxorus is that it is a good Pokemon in the current metagame but Dual Chop does not help it. The low base power in comparison to Outrage and its potential to miss were not alleviated by the fact that it could break Sashes and Substitutes, as that was far too situational. On top of that, taking twice the damage from Rocky Helmet has caused problems, as Lord Esche reports. Nevertheless, Rawbi assesses it as a viable option, and I must agree that it is, even if it is a very niche option.
With that out of the way, we are ready for the new cycle. All of the Pokemon this time will be rather high in the Viability Rankings, but we are going to take at sets seldom seen on them. Here is Week 5's selection:
The Celebi set is very straight-forward: it deals with several threats to teams, and lures Pokemon such as Unaware Clefable, which can comfortably switch into NP variants, but loses to Psychic + Z-Move. The Absol set might seem a bit weird but has its uses. Blizzard can OHKO standard Gliscor after Stealth Rock, although Ice Beam already punishes it hard. I am leaving the EV spread open, as 120 SpA investment allow Blizzard to 2HKO Hippowdon after Stealth Rock, but I do not believe such heavy Special Attack investment would be worthwhile. The Primarina set tries turning Primarina into a wall. I have heard mixed stories of its success, with Sacri' being the main party singing it praises since UU was in Alpha. I know that Cynde also has a customized spread that he prefers to the max HP / max Defense set, so if you have any ideas on how to finetune the spread, go wild! I wonder how RestTalk Primarina will perform, and am excited for any news on it.
Thanks again to everyone who participated during Week 4. As usual, for the new cycle, sign up with a fresh RW alt, and post replays illustrating your findings. As always, if you are worried about the amount of your posts, you can always edit your sign-up post with your research. The deadline for Week 5 is Friday, March 17th, at at 11:59 pm GMT+1. Either me or my co-host eht will announce the winner then and start the new week. Best of luck, have fun and happy researching!
To summarize the week, let's start with Cresselia. To put it short, Cresselia was a disappointment. As Ov3r Ac3 and ChrystalFalchion have reported, it did not find many opportunities to decide a game. Despite its great defensive stats, the amount of checks in the metagame and its passiveness made it a liability.. Many of its ORAS staple sets failed and even Z-moves could not make up for its flaws. The only set I haven't seen any reports on is Lunar Dance, which saddens me a bit but that is understandable when it faces competition in the form of Healing Wish Latias.
Ov3r Ac3 also reports that Gastrodon has not been performing, which surprises me as it has been performing for me personally and a few others. Nevertheless, I do concede that Gastrodon is outclassed on stall teams by Quagsire and that Swampert is a good fit for many teams due to its access to Stealth Rock. What makes Gastrodon shine, in comparison to Quagsire, is its higher HP and Special Defense as well as the higher Special Attack allowing for stronger Scalds. It is rather hard to build with, though.
What we've learned about Haxorus is that it is a good Pokemon in the current metagame but Dual Chop does not help it. The low base power in comparison to Outrage and its potential to miss were not alleviated by the fact that it could break Sashes and Substitutes, as that was far too situational. On top of that, taking twice the damage from Rocky Helmet has caused problems, as Lord Esche reports. Nevertheless, Rawbi assesses it as a viable option, and I must agree that it is, even if it is a very niche option.
With that out of the way, we are ready for the new cycle. All of the Pokemon this time will be rather high in the Viability Rankings, but we are going to take at sets seldom seen on them. Here is Week 5's selection:
Celebi @ Grassium Z / Psychium Z
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs:
filler Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic
-
-
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs:
filler Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic
-
-
Absol @ Absolite
Ability: Justified
EVs:
Naive Nature
- Knock Off
-
- Blizzard / Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
Ability: Justified
EVs:
Naive Nature
- Knock Off
-
- Blizzard / Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs:
filler Nature
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Ability: Torrent
EVs:
filler Nature
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
The Celebi set is very straight-forward: it deals with several threats to teams, and lures Pokemon such as Unaware Clefable, which can comfortably switch into NP variants, but loses to Psychic + Z-Move. The Absol set might seem a bit weird but has its uses. Blizzard can OHKO standard Gliscor after Stealth Rock, although Ice Beam already punishes it hard. I am leaving the EV spread open, as 120 SpA investment allow Blizzard to 2HKO Hippowdon after Stealth Rock, but I do not believe such heavy Special Attack investment would be worthwhile. The Primarina set tries turning Primarina into a wall. I have heard mixed stories of its success, with Sacri' being the main party singing it praises since UU was in Alpha. I know that Cynde also has a customized spread that he prefers to the max HP / max Defense set, so if you have any ideas on how to finetune the spread, go wild! I wonder how RestTalk Primarina will perform, and am excited for any news on it.
Thanks again to everyone who participated during Week 4. As usual, for the new cycle, sign up with a fresh RW alt, and post replays illustrating your findings. As always, if you are worried about the amount of your posts, you can always edit your sign-up post with your research. The deadline for Week 5 is Friday, March 17th, at at 11:59 pm GMT+1. Either me or my co-host eht will announce the winner then and start the new week. Best of luck, have fun and happy researching!
Last edited:
rw5 fuzzball
primarina and hopefully celebi
primarina and hopefully celebi
RW5 Cake
I'll do either absol or celebi depending on which I can build a team with.
I'll do either absol or celebi depending on which I can build a team with.
Last edited:
RW5 Mac3
Prima
RestTalk Primarina is really really good. With its great typing having RestTalk makes it a really good bulky attacker. I used the spread of 252/252 into defense as I wanted it to check most Fighting/Dark type pokemon and it does a really good job at that. With its already ery high special attack it can take the hits from the opposing mons and 2hko/1hko back and rest off any damage it had taken. I used it in a defensive core of Primarina + Bronzong which was working really well, as Bronzong lured in the Dark types Primarina could switch into and either Rest or fish for burns. I only have 75.9% GXE but in the beginning I went 24-4 or something like that. My rank when writing this was 187th but im laddering more so might rise or drop.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-545837042
In this replay Primarina puts in Obscene levels of work which was a huge part of me winning this game.
Prima
RestTalk Primarina is really really good. With its great typing having RestTalk makes it a really good bulky attacker. I used the spread of 252/252 into defense as I wanted it to check most Fighting/Dark type pokemon and it does a really good job at that. With its already ery high special attack it can take the hits from the opposing mons and 2hko/1hko back and rest off any damage it had taken. I used it in a defensive core of Primarina + Bronzong which was working really well, as Bronzong lured in the Dark types Primarina could switch into and either Rest or fish for burns. I only have 75.9% GXE but in the beginning I went 24-4 or something like that. My rank when writing this was 187th but im laddering more so might rise or drop.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-545837042
In this replay Primarina puts in Obscene levels of work which was a huge part of me winning this game.
Last edited:
RW5 Fal
Trying out Celebi. Let's hope I can do better than I have the last 2 weeks.
Edit:
Am now close to 1300 on the ladder, so far Z move Celebi has been really good. 195 BP Bloom Doom is incredibly powerful, and blows anything that doesn't resist it (or isn't named Blissey) to bits. I've been running it on a Nasty Plot set with Nasty Plot, Leaf Storm, Psychic and Earth Power, and it functions as a great wallbreaker and can also sweep slower teams. STAB Leaf Storm lets it beat Unaware Clefable that lack Calm Mind, if Clef is running a physically defensive spread.
Celebi @ Grassium Z
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic
- Earth Power
Couple of Replays.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-545613085 My opponent wasn't the highest calibre (seriously, what idiot leaves Tsareena in on Rotom-H?) but nonetheless Celebi sets up alongside NP Mew and blows the team open.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-545614774 - Sets up on defensive Mew and takes down most of the team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-545802149 - I admit I didn't play that well, but we can see Celebi surviving a Knock Off from Krookodile thanks the the Z Crystal, and being able to stop a potential Sharpedo sweep with Bloom Doom.
Edit 2: Have hit 1400 on the ladder. The set picks apart bulky defensive cores, although it does struggle against faster more offensive teams. Also, choosing between Earth Power and HP Fire can be tough - without the former, you lose to most Fire types, without the latter you lose to bulky Scizor.
Trying out Celebi. Let's hope I can do better than I have the last 2 weeks.
Edit:
Am now close to 1300 on the ladder, so far Z move Celebi has been really good. 195 BP Bloom Doom is incredibly powerful, and blows anything that doesn't resist it (or isn't named Blissey) to bits. I've been running it on a Nasty Plot set with Nasty Plot, Leaf Storm, Psychic and Earth Power, and it functions as a great wallbreaker and can also sweep slower teams. STAB Leaf Storm lets it beat Unaware Clefable that lack Calm Mind, if Clef is running a physically defensive spread.
Celebi @ Grassium Z
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic
- Earth Power
Couple of Replays.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-545613085 My opponent wasn't the highest calibre (seriously, what idiot leaves Tsareena in on Rotom-H?) but nonetheless Celebi sets up alongside NP Mew and blows the team open.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-545614774 - Sets up on defensive Mew and takes down most of the team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-545802149 - I admit I didn't play that well, but we can see Celebi surviving a Knock Off from Krookodile thanks the the Z Crystal, and being able to stop a potential Sharpedo sweep with Bloom Doom.
Edit 2: Have hit 1400 on the ladder. The set picks apart bulky defensive cores, although it does struggle against faster more offensive teams. Also, choosing between Earth Power and HP Fire can be tough - without the former, you lose to most Fire types, without the latter you lose to bulky Scizor.
Last edited:
After dodmen convinced me, Absol's second moveslot is now open. Sucker Punch is no longer mandatory. I had only played with the Sucker Punch version but can see why it would not be a necessity on this set, so you all may now fill in whatever you want in that slot. Tagging Rawbi Lord Esche A Cake Wearing A Hat Cirio Ov3r Ac3 since you all are either testing Absol or have plans to.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-546881298
ngl luck played a big role in this match, anyways RestTalk Primarina is a very solid set imo. I ran max HP and max defense on Primarina similarly to what Cynde ran and I believe it was the MVP during the match. The bulk on Primarina allowed it to take on both Gliscor and Cobalion, both at +2 which would not have happened on a standard Specs set since EQ and Iron Head would have a chance OHKO. Also being able to receive free recovery whenever Primarina pivots into both Mega Blastoise and Hydreigon was nice. Granted luck played a huge role in the game since I needed to use either Moonblast or Scald whenever Primarina was asleep, so that was nice.
Overall, I'm very impressed with RestTalk Primarina. Its typing and decent natural bulk alongside its naturally high base Special Attack lets it soak up hits while still doing a lot of damage, with Moonblast or Scald still being able to OHKO or 2HKO squishier foes.
this is my team in case anyone wants to try it out, ngl it's a lil' poorly built but, I think its still pretty decent
will post more replays once I get them!~
ngl luck played a big role in this match, anyways RestTalk Primarina is a very solid set imo. I ran max HP and max defense on Primarina similarly to what Cynde ran and I believe it was the MVP during the match. The bulk on Primarina allowed it to take on both Gliscor and Cobalion, both at +2 which would not have happened on a standard Specs set since EQ and Iron Head would have a chance OHKO. Also being able to receive free recovery whenever Primarina pivots into both Mega Blastoise and Hydreigon was nice. Granted luck played a huge role in the game since I needed to use either Moonblast or Scald whenever Primarina was asleep, so that was nice.
Overall, I'm very impressed with RestTalk Primarina. Its typing and decent natural bulk alongside its naturally high base Special Attack lets it soak up hits while still doing a lot of damage, with Moonblast or Scald still being able to OHKO or 2HKO squishier foes.
this is my team in case anyone wants to try it out, ngl it's a lil' poorly built but, I think its still pretty decent
Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- U-turn
Raikou @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch
Cobalion @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Stone Edge
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 196 SpD / 56 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Roost
- Earthquake
Celebi @ Meadow Plate
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic
- U-turn
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- U-turn
Raikou @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch
Cobalion @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Stone Edge
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 196 SpD / 56 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Roost
- Earthquake
Celebi @ Meadow Plate
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic
- U-turn
will post more replays once I get them!~
- Status