1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Research Week - Ubers Edition!

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by gookie, Jan 28, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    2,804
    Research Week - Ubers Edition!
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Hello there.

    I'm going to revive Research Week ! For all you guys who visited the old Stark Uber sub forums would surely know and know how it works. Its a good way to try out new things in the metagame and since Ubers is the most diverse metagame for obvious reasons there are probably quite a few Pokemon with great potential in the metagame who have yet to be discovered. A lot like 4th Ubers Lucario say.

    Research Week attempts to investigate Pokemon who have potential, be it in stats, movepool, or supporting their team, to serve as an innovative choice in today's metagame. These are Pokemon that, for the most part, remain relatively untested. I've selected 1 Pokemon I feel, with help from everyone else, could see use as they fill a particular niche. Perhaps the title is a bit of a misnomer; in fact, this installment (and perhaps future ones) of Research Week will continue as long as the discussion does, and that's where you all come in.

    If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning!

    Some rules:
    -Be open-minded and feel free to suggest or test anything, you never know it might revolutionize the metagame.(or if it is, back up your reasoning).
    -Test it! Get crazy. This is the one time where I'm going to encourage being gimmicky. (Dracoyoshi8 9.9)
    -Don't just think of the Pokemon itself, think of what it does well for a team and what the team needs to support it.
    -Don't suggest Pokemon in this thread, PM me or VM me or find me and maybe I'll include it in the next one!
    -Feel free to post teams you've made (provided you've done at least some preliminary testing with them), ideas, and replays in this thread.

    The Pokemon to research:

    [​IMG]

    Abomasnow! The only full evolved summoner of hail available braves the treacherous terrains of Ubers. It boasts a fantastic 7 weaknesses, a mighty 60 base speed, and mixed attacking stats not exceeding 100. However, it possesses a STAB Ice Shard, access to Leech Seed, a resistance to Water and Electric attacks, and a neutrality to Ice ones, allowing it to switch into non-specs versions of Kyogre without much difficulty. I want you guys not to only to investigate Abomasnow as an individual Pokemon, but hail as a playstyle. See if you can make it work!

    Written by barry4ever
  2. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,292
    Mm, I've had some decent experience using Hail, although I preferred my other teams. There are a few Pokemon which I found really useful, Ho-oh and Water Arceus. Ho-oh is good because it is a Fighting resist (which beats Fighting Arceus) as well as threatening sun teams that are your worst enemy. Ho-oh just uses the standard SubRoost set.

    Water Arceus I've felt to be really cool, especially with Toxic Spikes. I used it with Forretress for a while, and although you lose 6% every turn due to Hail, Calm Mind Refresh Water Arceus is probably the best Heatran counter to exist (Heatran fucks Hail up really badly otherwise). Along with Hail and Toxic Spikes, you easily wear down counters like Grass Arceus, and with two layers up, you can probably beat Grass Arceus one on one if you come in with a boost in hand already. The set is simply Arceus @ Splash Plate, 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe Timid, Calm Mind / Recover / Refresh / Surf.

    In terms of true abusers of Hail, you really don't have many options at all. I've always seen Hail not as a weather that you abuse, but just something you stick on a team to look cool =). Abomasnow can actually take on SpecsOgre if you can keep SR off (a bit hard, but do-able). All I can think of for abusers are Kyurem and Mamoswine, MAYBE Froslass. I actually really like Kyurem since Specs Blizzard rapes virtually every wall to exist in Ubers (Giratina, Lugia, Groudon, Ferrothorn). I know most people think Kyurem is kind of shit, and I kind of agree, but it's quite usable, purely because how weak the tier is to Ice. You get a switch in, something is dying (if you Kyogre, shoot a Draco Meteor at it as it comes in). Mamoswine is also really cool, and functions well enough with Hail, but in it, you get the bonus 20% evasion, which is cool. Froslass was really mediocre for me.

    In terms of Abomasnow sets, I suggest this one if anyone wants to start off:

    Abomasnow @ Leftovers
    Ability: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Nature: Calm
    - Leech Seed
    - Protect
    - Grass Knot
    - Blizzard / Substitute
  3. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    999
    Just like shrang, I used hail teams in Ubers for quite a bit but stopped using it now. Besides Ho-Oh and Water Arceus, there are few other pokemons I like using in hail.

    Heatran fits in well just like the one in tito's old hail team for gen 4. Heatran has lots of resistances, burn immune, and STAB Fire-attacks to scare away Forretress who might set up on Abomasnow. It makes you more Gyarados weak but you can only find stranded Gyaradoses in Ubers.

    I tried Scarf Kyurem instead of Specs but it died way too quickly for me :( Mamoswine is good but I rarely use in on hail teams because it shares weaknesses with Abomasnow. Use Mamoswine on rain teams and you will be surprise how well it does, such as 2HKOing Groudon. Kyurem gets wall to death by pink blobs.

    Lugia fits in on just about any stall team, hail is no different. Whether it is Reflect or SubLugia, it can work well in Hail. Jirachi is also quite useful in hail teams.

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Nature: Careful
    - Wish
    - Protect / U-Turn
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Thunder Wave

    Although this thread is for Abomasnow, you should know the playstyle as well! Zen Headbutt seems lame but it 2HKOes Tentacruel and does more damage to Kyogre, Ho-Oh, Palkia and Reshiram. Misses sucks though.

    Frosslass sucked for me, died fast and get outsped by Arceus isn't fun at all. Weavile is horrible in hail, because hail stall is the only way to play hail in Ubers.

    No one likes Hail in Ubers because there are no abusers! Kyurem is OK but it dies way too quickly, shares many weaknesses with Abomasnow. The thing I don't like about Abomasnow is how fast it dies to hazards. Getting set up on by Forretress, Ferrothorn and Specially Defensive Skarmory isn't fun either.

    Compared to Sand, we have Tyranitar, Excadrill, Terrakion and even Rock Arceus. Ice Arceus sucks to be honest and using in on a hail team means your whole team dies to hazards. Excadrill + Tyranitar is already a fantastic combination. With Tyranitar trapping Ghost-types, and Excadrill smashing Steel-types. Garchomp is also a great abuser of sand. Too weak to Fighting-type attacks? You can just fit in Giratina, Lugia or Ho-Oh.
  4. LighTz911

    LighTz911

    Joined:
    May 18, 2010
    Messages:
    233
    Um, so we're changing Hail to something else to research? I tried to use Hail, but it was more like using a team with Abomasnow (no real abusers and my team was slowed down because of Abomasnow) and really didn't go well. Maybe it's just me, though.
  5. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,292
    There wouldn't be much "research" if we did it on something which we knows stacks about
  6. ssbbm

    ssbbm

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,020
    abomasnow always beats specs ogre, even with sr i thought?_?

    also: blizzard is more necessary than grass knot in my opinion. spdef abomasnow is also probably the only decent abomasnow in my opinion.

    abomasnow pairs pretty well with heatran, simply because heatran draws in kyogre, which is dealt with by abomasnow. if i run hail, it usually is pretty semi-stally, with something like abomasnow / heatran / tentacruel / giratina (-o) / skarmory / chansey
  7. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    999
    Specs Kyogre 2HKOes you with Water Spout after SR.

    Blizzard must be used on Abomasnow to abuse hail and strike Dragon-types hard. Wood Hammer is an option over Grass Knot.

    Palkia seems like a good partner for Abomasnow to take Fire-type attacks.
  8. ssbbm

    ssbbm

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,020
    nah, timid specsogre doesn't ko with average damage rolls with sr up seeing as abomasnow can weaken kyogre down to 87.5% with hail + protect, then you shoudl have on average around 2% remaining. granted, it depends on you getting average damage rolls, but it's still a pretty good switch-in.

    also if you have sr up when kyogre comes in you win 100% of the time haha
  9. Splendiferous

    Splendiferous

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2011
    Messages:
    94
    Show Hide
    Arceus @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Frustration
    - Roar
    - Recover

    Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Seismic Toss

    Obama (Abomasnow) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Protect
    - Leech Seed
    - Blizzard
    - Grass Knot

    Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Rapid Spin
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Spikes
    - Pain Split

    Giratina @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Sleep Talk
    - Rest
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Roar

    Lugia @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Ice Beam
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind


    Reached around 1490ish on the PO ladder with this (which isn't that great but it is hail after all). Has problems with mewtwo and subNPdarkrai and is very prone to hax cause a lot of the time I just spam healing and then get critted. Been playing around with some alternative mons which I've found interesting like heatran and gliscor and came up with this:

    Show Hide
    Arceus-Dark @ Dread Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Payback
    - Roar
    - Recover

    Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Toxic
    - Softboiled
    - Wish
    - Seismic Toss

    Obama (Abomasnow) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Protect
    - Leech Seed
    - Blizzard
    - Grass Knot

    Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Rapid Spin
    - Toxic
    - Spikes
    - Pain Split

    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 128 SDef / 128 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Flamethrower
    - Toxic
    - Roar

    Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Taunt
    - Toxic
    - Earthquake

    Haven't really tested this much but it's pretty fun to play with. Patches up my mewtwo weakness but is a bit weak to terrakion+ekiller
  10. Blim

    Blim
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2005
    Messages:
    402
    Yeah, thing is, I personally don't see any potential for Abomasnow / Hail in ubers. It just isn't that good for various reasons. Sure, you could play hail stall with it as trickroom said, but it'd just be an inferior version of rain stall due to abomasnow's mediocre stats, horrible typing, and not to mention that drizzle is just an overall better weather than hail because a lot of the top pokemon used in stall benefit greatly from drizzle, while hail does nothing for them except chip away at their health. So in conclusion, I think abomasnow and hail is a gimmick, "cool" thing to mess around with in ubers for fun, but it's just an inferior style of play and has zero chance to influence the meta, hence remaining at the bottom of the usage statistics

    Late Edit: I may have mis-understood what the purpose of this research thread is =P, while i dont think hail will be good, ill attempt it and see what happens on the ladder.
  11. Vemane

    Vemane

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    Messages:
    398
    What about Iceceus?

    Arceus @ Icicle Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 SpAtt / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature (+Spd -Atk)
    - Blizzard
    - Thunderbolt
    - Calm Mind/Substitute
    - Recover/Substitute

    Being part Ice Type as well as having access to base 120 speed and spatt, what is stopping arceus from being a blizzard spammer? It is virtually kyurem except better coverage+better speed+better bulk+recovery. Substitute can be run over calm mind or recover to, in calm mind's case, allow the wearing down of the opponent so that unboosted attacks can ko, and in recover's place, as a way to block status.

    Basically, 120BPx1.5x1.2 and Perfect Accuracy and 120 spatt=Dayummmm!

    Achieves the renowned bolt beam combo with blizzard+thunderbolt and can deal HUGE amounts of damage.

    Should uber's main hail abuser imo
  12. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    528
    I tried building a team around Kyurem/Abomasnow a while back and when using two hazard weak pokes in hail, its very hard to do well since Stealth Rocks are on such durable pokemon (Dialga, Groudon, Arceus, Chansey). The best way to use hail is to not use any hail abusers and just make a heavy stall team. That in mind, Abomasnow is really useless. You're almost playing with only 5 pokemon. Aboma is worn down incredibly fast with only one layer of rocks and spikes up, so if you are playing a team with Kyogre/Ferrothorn or Groudon/Ferrothorn, even if you have Heatran they can set up pretty fast and you'll lose the weather war before they do.

    The stall aspect itself is inferior to other weather, as Arceus types with plates (not including Ice Arceus, which adds another SR weak poke) and Chansey take hail damage, and all pokemon with leftovers lose constant recovery.

    Its been a while since I made that team, I'll definitely give it another go without Kyurem but hail seems more of a gimmick than a legitimate strategy.
  13. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    528

    Blizzard runs out of PP so fast that the extra power really isn't worth it. You aren't going to be able to setup and sweep a team with 8 moves, especially if hail isn't up. Without calm mind the set would be bad as well, it defeats the purpose of special attacking arceus. It also provides another hazard weak poke.
  14. Fiction.

    Fiction.

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    392
    I've been playtesting a bit with Hail, and I agree with what everyone else has been saying. While it's nice to cancel opposing weather and opposing Leftovers recovery, Abomasnow's subpar defenses and weakness to hazards make it hard to keep it on the field. Plus all your own Leftovers get cancelled (except for Abomasnow's obviously) so that doesn't help, especially if using an Arceus forme like I'm doing. I guess Hail can screw Shell Smash over too, but so can Sand so w/e.

    tl;dr: use other weathers
  15. locoghoul

    locoghoul

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2008
    Messages:
    809
    i say we change the test. Best I've seen so far is guerrilla radio's stall team and even then, Abomasnow doesn't accomplish much.
  16. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    Messages:
    3,171
    Judgement outclasses Blizzard on Iceceus. More PP, and more accuracy(outside of hail). I doubt the 30% chance of breaking through Protect is enough of an advantage to make Blizzard worth using over Judgement.

    EDIT: 10% chance of freeze is only really "reliable" in long stall wars, which definitely require more than 8 PP(4 with Pressure).
  17. barry4ever

    barry4ever
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    877
    This research week has expended itself it seems. The general outlook on hail was that while it is definitely viable in Ubers, other weather and play styles are easier to pull off and more effective in general. We have a new research week up shortly with a new approach and a new layout, till then hold on tight !
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)