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Reset to Zero (Peaked 2600+)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by False Sense, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    407
    [​IMG] Reset to Zero [​IMG]

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    [​IMG] Introduction [​IMG]
    Hello, people of Smogon! Welcome to my latest RMT! After a long hiatus I had after Smogon was hacked, I finally decided to reintroduce myself to the competitive scene. And of course, what better way to do that than through an RMT? And so I began work on this team, with the goal of making one of the best and most effective teams I ever created. The result was this Balanced team based around a surprisingly underused threat.

    Now, my usual method for building teams is to try and take something underrated and construct a team around it to bring out its best qualities. The trick to this is trying to find something that is underused and under appreciated, but still actually has competitive value. I'm not going to build a team around something that requires too much support to be moderately viable; no, it has to be a real diamond in the rough. After some time spent searching for such a pokemon, I finally decided to give Kyurem a try. Despite having fantastic stats and a fairly good movepool to go with it, Kyurem remains one of the few pokemon existing in the BL tier. Why? Well, being an Ice type certainly doesn't help matters, nor does the fact that Kyurem-B, with its superior stats and movepool, is already OU. But does Kyurem still have a place in the metagame? I decided to find out firsthand. Now, for whatever reason, at around this time I got to thinking about one of my favorite pokemon to use in OU; SubDD Dragonite. The old star of one of my earlier teams popped into my head, and I remembered just how easy it was for it to pull off a sweep. And I thought of something crazy; Kyurem has a Sub set that it can use, too. I wonder what would happen if both SubDD Dragonite and SubRoost Kyurem were used on the same team? Turns out, they work together fantastically. Now unfortunately, Dragonite would get replaced by another SubDD pokemon, Gyarados, but the basic idea of remains the same.

    [​IMG] The Team [​IMG]

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    [​IMG] Team Building Process [​IMG]


    So, obviously I started the team off with the pair of SubDD Dragonite and SubRoost Kyurem to see how that would work out.

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    Of course, whenever you see Dragonite and Kyurem together, you're obviously going to think STEALTH ROCK WEAKNESS. Well, yeah, that is a definite problem. On previous teams, I managed to get around it, but this time, with the focus of the team being Dragonite and Kyurem, I had no choice. I was going to have to put a Rapid Spinner on the team. And I HATE Rapid Spinners. So for starters, I stuck Bulky Starmie on the team.

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    So with the Rapid Spinner out of the way, I decided the best thing for the team would be a good Steel type to handle Dragons, since nothing on the team wanted to take an Outrage. I decided to go for Offensive Heatran, for its powerful attacks, Stealth Rock support, being a bulky Steel, and being a good Sun check.

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    At this point, the team was lacking a real defensive backbone, and seeing as how I wanted the team to be Balanced, I needed something to absorb hits. I ended up going with an old favorite of mine, Amoonguss, for the incredible support it can provide with Spore, its synergy with Heatran and Starmie, and for being good against Rain.

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    With all that in place, the last thing I needed was a Choice Scarfer for some speed. I settled for Choice Scarf Terrakion, bringing the team to its first form.

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    So, the team was complete! How did it do? ...Eh... not that good. To be fair, there were parts that did really good, and others that just fell flat. Dragonite and Kyurem, to my relief, worked brilliantly together. I'll explain that in detail later. The rest of the team? Not so good. I didn't really like Starmie here as it just wasn't really bulky enough to really take hits, and it really didn't do much for the team outside of Rapid Spin. I also found that I hardly used Terrakion and Heatran. Sure, I used them for checking sweepers and Sun, but outside of that, they served very little purpose to the team. I wanted something that could do those roles and still support the team outside of that. Oh, and Amoonguss worked fine, always does. But clearly some major renovation had to be done to make the team work properly.

    For the first step in restructuring the team, I replaced Starmie with Tentacruel for a bulkier Spinner. Tentacruel also provides Toxic Spikes support for the team, which Kyurem and Dragonite absolutely love to have. At the same time, I replaced Amoonguss with Celebi so as to have a status absorber with Starmie gone. Celebi does have its other advantages over Amoonguss though, such as Perish Song and a Psychic STAB.

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    Now this version of the team worked better, but it still wasn't quite functional. The problem, I realized, was my lack of defense. My only "real" defensive pokemon were Celebi and Tentacruel, and while Tentacruel is bulky, it just isn't meant to take repeated hits, especially outside of Rain. But since I lacked any other defensive teammates, Tentacruel had to take on more pressure than it normally should, and ended up dying far too quickly. So what should I do for a stronger defensive backbone? After giving it some thought, I realized that Terrakion was probably the most replaceable member of the team. It was just a revenge killer; anything could do its job. So I ended up giving the Choice Scarf to Heatran, freeing up a team slot while still keeping a Scarfer. In that empty slot I added an Offensive Pivot Landorus-T to serve as a physical wall.

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    The team did pretty good at this point. However, I, along with many others, noticed a glaring weakness to Mamoswine, who could come in and proceed to murder my entire team. One of the suggestions made to rectify this, suggested by Halcyon of Light, was to replace Dragonite with SubDD Gyarados, a set that works similarly to Dragonite, but could cover up my weakness to Mamoswine. Naturally, I was reluctant to replace one of my favorite sets in OU, but in the end I felt it was for the better. This brings us to the latest version of the team, which let me reach a new ladder peak just above 2600.

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    [​IMG] Analysis [​IMG]

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    Gyarados @ Leftovers [​IMG]
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 88 HP / 248 Atk / 4 Def / 168 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    -Waterfall
    -Bounce
    -Dragon Dance
    -Substitute


    Well, meet the new star of the team, SubDD Gyarados. While I think it doesn't quite match up to SubDD Dragonite in terms of pure sweeping ability, it does manage to support the team much better than Dragonite was able to, covering up his teammates weaknesses while receiving valuable support from them. Most of this stems from its Water/Flying typing, and its ability Intimidate. The two combined make it an effective check for threats like Mamoswine, Scizor, and other such physical attackers. Actually, Scizor is one of the few things that can really threaten Kyurem, so having a sweeper that can set up on it is excellent to have.

    The moveset here is pretty basic for SubDD Gyarados. Waterfall is the primary STAB move for sweeping, packing a punch after a boost or two. On top of that, it can also take advantage of Rain to become a real powerhouse attack. Oh, it also can flinch. Bounce is a move you really don't see much of in OU, but it works surprisingly well on Gyarados. It hits a little bit harder than Waterfall does (outside of Rain) and offers great neutral coverage. The main drawback is that it takes two turns to execute, one of which Gyarados is invulnerable. While this does give the opponent a turn to retaliate, knowing exactly what I'm going to do, it usually works out to my advantage. Nothing really wants to switch into Bounce since it has a 30% chance to paralyze the target, the same as Scald has for a burn. Combined with Waterfall's flinch, this can cause headaches. It also gives Gyarados some free Leftovers recovery, which is vitally important since Gyarados lacks any other form of recovery to fuel Subs. Speaking of which, Dragon Dance and Substitute make this set what it is, giving Gyarados a way of boosting its stats to incredible levels while also giving it protection from attacks and Status.

    While Gyarados was mostly added to the team for the purpose of checking a single threat, it's proven to be useful outside of that role. Its typing and ability allow it to play as a team supporter as well as a sweeper, checking dangerous threats and making sure that physical attackers pack very little punch. And just like Dragonite, it works together brilliantly with Kyurem. Overall, Gyarados might not be the original star of the team, but it has proven itself to be a worthy successor to it. (R.I.P. Dragonite.)


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    Kyurem @ Leftovers [​IMG]
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 52 HP / 220 SAtk / 236 Spe
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Modest Nature
    -Ice Beam
    -Earth Power
    -Substitute
    -Roost
    And here's the second star of the team, the one who this whole team was built around, Sub Roost Kyurem. So, why am I using Kyurem? Why use it over Kyurem-B, who has all around better stats? Why use it with Gyarados, another pokemon with a Stealth Rock weakness? Well, for starters, Kyurem does have something Kyurem-B doesn't: Pressure. This is probably Kyurem's biggest claim to fame at the moment, as it can abuse its great bulk to actually PP stall a wide variety of threats, rendering them useless after awhile. It also has slightly more special attack than Kyurem-B, which is perfect for this set. Speaking of the set, this is an interesting wall breaker/staller set designed to tear apart walls while it hides behind the safety of Substitute, a job it does great at. And if it can't flat out kill a wall (which is fairly rare), it can usually just stall it to death, or at least to the point where it can't do anything anymore.

    So, onto the moveset. Ice Beam is the main attack Kyurem uses, and it packs quite the punch. Seriously, an Ice Beam coming from a Modest Kyurem leaves a serious dent in anything that isn't either bulky or resists it. Earth Power is a new move Kyurem got from BW2, and it's a great coverage move to complement Ice Beam, tearing up Heatrans and the like who think they are safe from Ice Beam. Substitute is what really makes this set work, giving Kyurem a shield from threats that could otherwise endanger it. From behind it, Kyurem can safely launch its powerful attacks or watch as the opponents PP drops to zero. As a side note, the EVs Kyurem has gives it enough HP for 101 HP subs, meaning they can't be broken in one turn by moves like Seismic Toss or Night Shade. Roost gives Kyurem reliable recovery so it can continue to make more Subs.

    Again, why did I decide to use Kyurem with Gyarados in the first place? Well, it turns out they complement each other great. Certain walls like Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Rotom-W, that could stop Gyarados' sweep cold are easy set-up bait for Kyurem. From behind a Sub, Kyurem is capable of punching holes into teams just perfect for Gyarados to clean up. I was quite impressed by how well Kyurem performs in this metagame, and I have yet to be disappointed by it.

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    Tentacruel @ Black Sludge [​IMG]
    Ability: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spe
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Bold Nature
    -Rapid Spin
    -Scald
    -Rain Dance
    -Toxic Spikes
    Now as I said before, the most obvious flaw with the Gyarados/Kyurem core is that it's weak to Stealth Rocks. Kyurem in particular is hurt by every kind of hazard. That simply would not do. As a result of that, Tentacruel is on the team to make sure that hazards are kept off the field as much as possible. It does a pretty good job at that. So why Tentacruel over something else like Starmie? Simple. Tentacruel can provide support that brings out the very best potential in Gyarados and Kyurem: Toxic Spikes. Once something is badly poisoned, Gyarados and Kyurem can use their Sub Roosting (or Sub Bouncing) abilities to stall the opponent to death. What once could possibly stop Kyurem from breaking through becomes a small delay before inevitable demise. It's for that valuable support that I have Tentacruel on the team.

    Now aside from that support, Tentacruel is capable of holding his own as part of the team's defensive backbone as well as having some small offensive presence. Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes are obviously not immediately threatening moves, but they do provide the team with incredibly important support. Scald is definitely Tentacruel's best self defense, threatening potential switch-ins with Burns that could potentially cripple them. Like on any other bulky water, this makes Tentacruel rather difficult to switch into. Rain Dance is a new move I've been trying out on Tentacruel, and so far it's been very effective. Something that I noticed soon after I added Gyarados to the team was that, because it relied solely on Leftovers for recovery, could not recover any HP against Sandstorm or Hail teams. The same applied to Tentacruel and, at least in the case of Hail, Landorus-T. This began to really bug me after awhile. At some point, I realized that Giga Drain just wasn't very helpful on Tentacruel. Too weak to actually break through Bulky Waters. So I figured, why not replace it with Rain Dance to screw up weather teams? Teams that sack their weather inducer early on find their strategies wrecked once their weather is gone. Now, admittedly Rain Dance is useless against Rain teams, but since my team can handle those just fine, I think it's alright.

    Now I'll be honest here; initially, I really didn't like Tentacruel. I thought it was just too weak to really do anything and should only be used for the support it provides. And while that technically is true, I've found that it is capable of being a good team player outside of the pure support it provides. Of course, the pure support it does provide is utterly fantastic for this team, and it definitely deserves the spot on the team.
    Oh yeah, did I mention that it's near immortal against Rain teams? That's always a plus.

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    Landorus-T @ Leftovers [​IMG]
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 200 HP / 64 Atk / 244 Def
    Adamant Nature
    -Earthquake
    -Stone Edge
    -U-Turn
    -Stealth Rock
    Landorus-T was added to the team in hoped of providing me with a strong defensive pivot for the team to work around. Of course, Landorus-T fulfills that role perfectly. With its enormous attack power, its ability Intimidate, and solid natural bulk, Landorus-T is fantastic at being a wall that can stop physical attackers in their tracks while still hitting hard. As long as it's around, I never have to worry about annoying physical sweepers like Scizor or Lucario possibly sweeping my team. Truly a fantastic pokemon.

    Anyway, the moveset here doesn't require much explanation. Earthquake is a powerful STAB attack that can rip things to shreds, while Stone Edge creates the famous EdgeQuake combo for great coverage. U-Turn is a fantastic move on this set, allowing Landorus-T to bounce in and out of play, gaining momentum and constantly forcing switches with Intimidate. Stealth Rock, of course, is the standard hazard that just about any good team should have somewhere. Since Landorus doesn't particularly need that last moveslot for anything, Stealth Rock is an easy fit on it.

    Really, I don't think Landorus-T needs too much explanation. It stops threats like Scizor and Terrakion from threatening my team gives me a great pivot for bringing in other team members. He's a valuable member of the team and I'm glad I added him in.

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    Celebi @ Leftovers [​IMG]
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 236 SDef / 20 Spe
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Calm Nature
    -Psychic
    -Giga Drain
    -Recover
    -Perish Song
    Specially Defensive Celebi rounds out my defensive core by providing me with a powerful special wall capable of checking dangerous threats like Keldeo and Thundurus-T while also absorbing annoying status conditions for the team. Together with Landorus-T and Tentacruel, they can handle a good portion of the metagame on their own thanks to their solid synergy.

    Celebi's moveset is a bit interesting as it's much more flexible than other walls are. For a STAB move, I've chosen Psychic for a hard hitting attack that can hit Fighting types, Thundurus-T, and Dragons harder than Giga Drain. Recover is the obvious healing move to keep Celebi alive that much longer. I've actually replaced Baton Pass with Giga Drain as of late. Why? Two reasons: one, it's very easy to predict when a Pursuiter is about to try and come in, and I can usually just switch out before hand. I rarely used Baton Pass, or never needed to, as a result. Secondly, my team had a bit of trouble breaking past Bulky Waters, particularly Jellicent, who could also keep me from Rapid Spinning. So, Giga Drain AND Psychic are being used, and I don't regret it. Perish Song is arguably Celebi's best move on the set, as it lets Celebi put a timer on how long an opponent can stay in, oftentimes ruining a potential sweep. Because of that, Celebi is often my best defense against opposing sweepers. I can't count how many times Perish Song has saved me the game, to be honest.

    Celebi's main job on the team is to check opposing Rain teams, as well as being a general special sponge and a check against dangerous set up sweepers. Without it, this team would surely crumble against the powerful Hydro Pumps, Thunders, and Scalds Rain teams love to use. It fits right in with the rest of the team and does its part to keep it functional.

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    Heatran @ Choice Scarf [​IMG]
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 112 HP / 160 SAtk / 236 Spe
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Modest Nature
    -Overheat
    -Earth Power
    -Hidden Power (Ice)
    -Flamethrower
    So, here we are at the last member of the team, and perhaps the most unusual; Choice Scarf Heatran. Yes, it is a rather uncommon set for a Heatran to run, so why am I using it? Well, as I've hopefully established by now, each of the other team members play vital roles in keeping the team together. Take one out and the team doesn't really work, like it did in its earlier stages. Still, the team needs a way of checking those annoying Sun teams, but it also needs a Choice Scarfer. So why not combine the two roles into one? Turns out Choice Scarf Heatran works surprisingly better than you'd imagine.

    Onto the moveset. Overheat is Heatran's main STAB attack, and for good reason; it's basically a Fire type Draco Meteor. Couple that with Heatran's already huge Special Attack and the investment it has in the stat, and you get a very hard hitting attack. Earth Power complements Overheat by hitting things that could otherwise shrug off Overheat, such as other Heatran or Terrakion. Hidden Power Ice is good for hitting Dragons and Ground/Flying types hard, especially since most of them don't expect to be out sped by a Heatran. Flamethrower is a more reliable alternative to Overheat, being more accurate and not having the Sp. Atk drop Overheat does. It's best suited for late game as a possible cleaning move.

    Heatran's role on the team is to be a reliable Sun check while also being a good revenge killer that's capable of taking a hit and retaliating. Heatran finishes off the team brilliantly, covering up a good portion of the holes it would otherwise have, most notably a weakness to Sun. Seriously, this thing is brilliant against Sun. Oh the joy of a Sun boosted, Flash Fire, STAB Overheat...

    [​IMG] Notable Threats [​IMG]

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    Mamoswine, of course, is probably the biggest threat to the team. Between Icicle Crash/Ice Shard, Earthquake, and Superpower/Stone Edge, it can hit my whole team for super effective damage, and there is very little I can do about it. Usually my best bet is to try and get Heatran in safely and roast it, but obviously that doesn't always work. However, with the addition of Gyarados to the team, this might not be that large of a threat anymore.

    [​IMG]
    Kyurem-B, being the near-Uber that it is, is also a huge threat to the team, much in the same way that Mamoswine is. My team rather dislikes the combination of Ice and Ground attacks, and thus any pokemon that can hit hard with both of those is usually a threat, and Kyurem-B is no exception. My best bet against this thing is to hit it with Stealth Rock damage, then send Heatran in for the kill. Still, not the most reliable method.
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    I rather hate this thing. With its great speed and huge Special Attack, it can hit my team hard with its attacks before I can really do much. The fact that they usually carry a Focus Sash doesn't help. Most of the time, I try to send Celebi in since it can take most of its hits alright and go from there, but lately a lot of Alakazam I see carry Signal Beam. It's a rather difficult threat for me to deal with.



    [​IMG] Conclusion [​IMG]
    Well, that's my team. I've really enjoyed battling with this team and discovering just what it's capable of. If you haven't tried out Kyurem or any of the other unusual sets I've used here, I recommend giving them a try. They all continue to impress me on a regular basis, and I'm sure they won't disappoint. (Besides, Kyurem should really be OU at this point anyway.) I hope you enjoyed reading through this RMT, and I hope to get some nice feedback! If you have any ideas for how to improve the team, don't hesitate to share with me. I'm always open to new possibilities to make my team the best it can be!

    Special Thanks to Halcyon of Light for helping me test out the team as well as providing the Gyarados suggestion.

    That's about it then. I look forward to seeing your ideas for improvement!
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2013
    frewboo, Usatoday, alexwolf and 15 others like this.
  2. Matt Tuck

    Matt Tuck

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2013
    Messages:
    33
    Hi, I really like your team and props to you for using SubDD nite in this meta. The one thing i find really iffy is the use of Baton Pass + Perish Song. I'd recommend switching Perish Song for something like T-wave maybe? so it doesn't clash with Baton Pass. Also you might wanna run the faster variant of Sub tentacruel because as you said Giga Drain is just there for being there and Mamoswine seems like a pretty big threat to your team. Other than that you've done a really good job.
    Hope I helped.
    False Sense likes this.
  3. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    407
    Hi Matt Tuck! Thanks for the feedback!

    Now, I totally agree with you about the Baton Pass + Perish Song issue. It can be rather annoying at times. I actually had Thunder Wave on Celebi at an earlier phase of the team. However, without Perish Song, I found myself struggling to stop set up sweepers from mowing through my team. It's a critically important move on the team, and one I can't see myself getting rid of within the foreseeable future. I'd rather deal with not being able to Baton Pass out when using Perish Song over not having Perish Song at all. Sorry about that.

    Now, Sub Tentacruel is a rather interesting idea, and one that I also tried out earlier on during team construction. Unfortunately, without Rain to activate Rain Dish, I found that Tentacruel just doesn't get enough recovery to pull off a working Sub set. In the long run I found that Tentacruel was doing more damage to itself with its Subs than it was doing anything to the opponent.

    Regardless, I do appreciate that you took the time to rate my team. Thanks again!
  4. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
    is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    1,760
    Hello False Sense! This is a very wonderful team you have there! I especially like the design and effort that you put into this RMT, and thus will put in my effort too to give you a good rate.

    Most of your sets are well defined; they are very good with a clear purpose. Your team members, individually, are extremely tough to break through. Furthermore, your offensive cores are succint and are quite ready to fight in today's metagame, being able to bring a sweep once your win conditions are fulfilled.


    However, I find that your team is weak to common OU powerhouses. In particular, Mamoswine and Keldeo.
    I will talk about Mamoswine first, because it seems that you have a Keldeo check in Celebi already

    Mamoswine's Ice + Ground coverage can destroy your team. Ice can take down Celebi, Dragonite and Landorus, while Ground removes Tentacruel and Heatran. Kyurem is going to lose as Mamoswine resists Ice, and Earth Power is not really a big deal. Worst of all, it can set up the dreaded hazard for your team: Stealth Rocks.

    Mamoswine can switch in easily on most of your pokemon, including Celebi and Overheated Heatran. Ice Shard deals 4x damage to Dragonite, and it appears that thanks to priority, it is going to break through the Roost effect and bombard Dragonite for obscene damage. Icicle Spear is going to annihilate Dragonite no matter which way you look at it.

    Therefore, I suggest that you use Focus Blast > Earth Power on Kyurem in order to check Mamoswine better. Granted, Focus Miss is a pain in the ass, but you are still able to check Heatrans as well. Notice that Heatrans are not OHKOed by Earth Power(I learnt this the hard way in a tournament match lol, dammit); they are 2HKOed.
    Similarly, Heatrans are also 2HKOed by Focus Blast. This means that the same amount of moves can be used to kill Heatran, with the exception of the disappointment which Focus Miss brings, it will be able to benefit your team likewise.

    220+ SpA Kyurem Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 292-348 (75.84 - 90.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    220+ SpA Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 194-230 (50.38 - 59.74%) -- 81.64% chance to 2HKO

    220+ SpA Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 426-502 (118 - 139.05%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    220+ SpA Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 160-189 (44.32 - 52.35%) -- 17.58% chance to 2HKO


    Next is Keldeo. It appears that you have prepared fairly adequately for Keldeo, which is a plus point. Tentacruel and Celebi are quite a fair option.



    Your team is very solid and I feel that it will perform well in-games. One nitpick is that I find that Baton Pass with Perish Song on Celebi is iffy at best, no thanks to Baton Pass passing the Perish Song as well. I believe that it is possible to use U-turn > Baton Pass so that this irritation does not happen. In the event that an Intimidate user switches in on the Baton Pass or a random SpDef drop from a stray Shadow Ball happens to hit Celebi as well, the ill effects do not get passed on to whoever in switching in.



    I hope this rate has improved your team! It is a very solid and novel team, but I do urge you to watch out for Mamoswine!


    -Metal Sonic
    False Sense likes this.
  5. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    407
    Hi Metal Sonic! Thanks for the rate!

    You're actually right about Mamoswine; I loathe that thing. Not just with this team, but with just about any team I make, Mamoswine seems to be a threat. So annoying. I've been lucky enough to not have much problems with it as of late, but its still a threat, probably one of the biggest to the team. The problem is finding a way to actually deal with the thing.

    Now about your Focus Blast suggestion. Problems with it first; it's Focus Blast. It's infamous for missing more than any other move is, really. In general I'd prefer not to run it if not absolutely necessary. Also, its low PP makes it less suited for Kyurem's attempts to PP Stall out certain threats. On the other hand, it does give me a powerful Fighting type attack to use against threats like Mamoswine and Tyranitar, which would be a nice addition to the team. It's also much stronger than Earth Power is, making it all the easier to break through walls. So in the end, I guess it's a mixed bag. I'll give the move a test run and see how that turns out. Again, thanks for the rate! I appreciate how much effort you put into it!
  6. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,406
    Hey False! Glad you finally got around to making a team around Kyurem. I remember you saying how much you wanted to try him out.

    As a few of the raters have mentioned to you above, Mamoswine is a huge threat to this team, because the only thing that can fight back against Mamoswine on your team is Heatran, but even then it can't reliably switch into it fearing an Earthquake or a Superpower. Once Heatran is gone, your team just straight up loses to Mamoswine. Speaking of which, nothing on your team can switch into Mamoswine at all. Celebi can't switch into the combination of Earthquake and Icicle Crash, Tentacruel is destroyed by EQ, Dragonite and Landorus-T are both obviously destroyed by Ice Shard, and Kyurem is mauled by Superpower. If Mamoswine gets a free switch into anything, it's going to KO something, and sadly Mamoswine can switch into just about anything on your team. On top of your Mamoswine weakness, you are also incredibly weak to Shell Smash Cloyster. Once it gets a free Shell Smash boost, it's pretty much GG from there. Tentacruel can somewhat check Cloyster, but it's still takes a TON from a +2 Rock Blast. With all this said, I think you need to fit Rotom-W somewhere on your team. It covers your team's two biggest threats, with little effort, while also helping you out against the deadly T-Tar + Keldeo core.

    Out of all the things on your team, I think your Dragonite is the most dispensable. Outside of sweeping, it brings absolutely nothing to the team. Kyurem already takes advantage of T-Spikes with its Sub Roosting capabilities, and having another Dragon-type that does the exact same thing seems a bit redundant don't you think? It sweeps...sometimes... but with the massive amount of Steel-types in the tier that wall that set to hell, and the fact that it needs multiple boosts before it can go to town, T-Spike support, and all revenge killers taken care of first, it shows me that D-Nite requires a little to much support for this team, and it's uneeded. I think you should use Bulky Attacker Rotom-W over Dragonite. Rotom-W patches up your weakness to both Mamoswine and Cloyster, while also patching up your slight weakness to DD Gyarados. On top of that, you will no longer struggle against the T-Tar Keldeo core because you can burn T-tar and threaten Keldeo. I know that D-Nite is one of the "stars" of this team, but I feel like Kyurem does a LOT more for this team then Dragonite anyway, and Rotom-W will round off your team's common weaknesses and overall coverage.

    Well that's that. Sorry if you find me a bit intrusive for trying to replace one of your star Pokemon, but I feel like D-Nite is actually holding your team back. Anyways, I hope I helped, and good luck!

    Rotom-W (open)
    [​IMG]
    Rotom-Wash
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 232 HP / 56 SAtk / 220 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Volt Switch
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Thunderbolt / Pain Split


    [​IMG] Sub Roost DD Nite-----> [​IMG] Bulky Rotom-W
  7. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    407
    Hi Gary! Thanks for the rate!

    So yes, Mamoswine is probably the biggest threat to the team that I've noticed. For the most part, I can handle everything else fine enough. But Mamoswine... yeah, that kills me. If Heatran can get in safely, it can usually blow it up, but otherwise it can leave a huge wound in the team.

    Now about Rotom-W replacing Dragonite... As you already guessed, I'm not fond of the idea of replacing one of the pokemon the team was built around. I feel that kind of goes against the original idea of the team. Anyway, I've done some testing with Rotom-W on the team, and so far... I've only won once. Why? It's hard to pin point the exact cause. Could be the changes, could be bad luck on my part. I think one possibility is that without Dragonite, I don't have that much of a win condition. Sure, I have Kyurem, but he's not so much a sweeper as he is a wall breaker that can potentially sweep. I'm able to do some damage to teams, but I'm usually not able to finish them off before they do the same to me. Dragonite is usually the one that wins me games, often times saving me from almost certain defeat and reversing the tide of the battle, which is one of the things I love about the set. Though enough about that, how does Rotom-W perform on the team? Well, it's Rotom-W, so it can't possibly be bad. It works well enough. But I just don't really see it adding much to the team. To be fair, there was one time when it was able to Volt Switch a Gyarados that got a boost, but it wasn't exactly a life or death situation. Other than that, I feel like it doesn't do much for the team other than checking those threats. It's another Bulky Water, and I already have one of those. It's another pivot, but I already have two that are fine on their own. It feels like filler, to be honest. The fact that it keeps getting killed by Tyranitars doesn't exactly help matters.

    Nonetheless, I'll keep testing it out to see if maybe I just need to adjust to it. Again, thanks for the suggestion.
  8. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,523
    Hey False Sense! As I've said before, this is a great team, and it totally kicked my ass in our battle.

    The threat to Mamoswine is a pretty big one (you also have a problem with many different physical attackers as I mentioned in our PM conversations such as Dragonite and Breloom, which can actually OHKO Celebi with a 4 hit Bullet Seed at +2!). As I've been looking through the team, I have to say that I don't much like Dragonite. I know that you really love this set, but it makes it so hard for you to sweep if it is walled by Skarmory, Forretress, and virtually every other Steel type in the tier. I really think you should change it for something else, but you mentioned to Gary that you wanted to have a win condition, so Rotom-W is out of the question. I completely understand that feeling, as almost all of my teams have some sort of setup sweeper as well. Since that's the case, I suggest you switch your Dragonite for a Bulky DD Gyarados. I don't think I need to tell you how great Gyarados is in the current metagame. It walls all sorts of threats, and after two Dragon Dances, it can sweep entire teams that lack a Rotom-W (and even some that do!). Not only that, but between Gyarados and Landorus-T, no physical attacker will be threatening your team. Before, Mamoswine could put a stop to your Dragonites fun with Icicle Spear or Ice Shard, and there wasn't anything your teammates could do about it. With Gyarados, Mamoswine becomes much less of a threat. With Intimidate and STAB Waterfall, Gyarados becomes almost a perfect counter to Mamoswine, fearing on the extremely rare Stone Edge. I think Gyarados would be a much more reliable sweeper for your team, and would contribute to the team much more thanks to Intimidate.

    Hope I was able to help! Thanks very much for the shout out, even though I didn't help at all haha. be sure to let me know how Gyarados works out. Good luck!

    Set (open)

    [​IMG]
    Gyarados @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 88 HP / 248 Atk / 4 Def / 168 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Waterfall
    - Bounce
    - Substitute
    - Dragon Dance


    Jaiho, Metal Sonic, vyomov and 2 others like this.
  9. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    407
    Thanks for the rate Halcyon!

    Gyarados over Dragonite, huh? Well, the main problem I have with that is... uh... ok, that actually sounds like a pretty good idea. Again, I'm not fond of the idea of replacing Dragonite at all, but that Gyarados set actually looks and works very similarly to SubDD Dragonite. Minus the recovery and awesome Multiscale, but still, I think it might actually work pretty well. I'll give it a test run and see how it works out. Thanks for the idea!

    Sub DD Dragonite is still amazing though. Just saying.
    vyomov and Halcyon. like this.
  10. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
    is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    1,760
    Hey False Sense! I'd like to check on your progress on how your teams have progressed. Has Focus Blast added value to your team? I understand its misses are disappointing, but its more powerful and checks more enemies that your team requires. Please do give feedback so that we can help you better!

    It is unfortunate that the other raters believe that Dragonite, the star of your team, is unnecessary. I would like to refute this as False Sense's team is specially built around Dragonite + Kyurem(look at his Heatran and Tentacruel, ready to counter those Steel types for Dragonite). However, I can support Halcyon of Light's suggestion about adding DD Gyrados. Although it removes a star member from your team, it is able to Intimidate, therefore being able to stall against Physical Attackers. Next, its Bounce provides rather reliable paralysis which can also win you games. However, this may not be possible using Toxic Spikes; fortunately Waterfall's 20% flinch rate can stun your opponent and let it take one extra turn of poison. Finally, Gyrados' favourable typing(2 weaknesses, multiple resistances) are very helpful towards your "Stalling" objective.

    I suggest you give it a try, and see if you like it. If it happens that Gyrados is not your cup of tea, I still encourage you to use Dragonite as usual. I find that it is fine.


    Also, don't forget to change Baton Pass on Celebi > U Turn so that you do not clash with Perish Song!
  11. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    407
    Ok, so I've done a bit of testing with some of the suggestions I've received, and here's what I've found so far.

    Focus Blast on Kyurem: Well, the next person I battled after I had made this change had a Mamoswine on their team. When Mamoswine came out, Kyurem was on the field behind a Sub. Kyurem then proceeded to miss all of its Focus Blasts and ended up getting killed by Mamoswine. In short, Focus Blast is, I think, just far to unreliable to be my main safety measure against a major threat.

    Rotom-W over Dragonite: I've already touched on this, so I won't go into too much detail. While Rotom-W is a good pokemon on its own, and is great for checking those specific threats, it doesn't particularly blend well with the rest of the team, and replacing Dragonite removes my main win condition.

    Gyarados over Dragonite: Since this is a rather significant change, I probably need some more testing with this to be sure wether or not I want to make this change. So after about 15 or so battles with this thing, here's what I think. On the plus side, its Intimidate coupled with its typing and Landorus-T is a great buffer against physical attackers (notably, it's particularly good against Scizor, which Kyurem appreciates), and is great against set up sweepers of that kind, or for just forcing switches. Theoretically, I assume it would also be great against Mamoswine as well, but I have yet to actually encounter one. Hence the need for more testing. Now for the other end of the spectrum. This might sound weird, but in all the battles I've used it in, I have yet to actually sweep with this thing. Most of my victories come from Kyurem being able to pick apart unlucky teams that weren't prepared for it, or just my team having a general advantage over the other. Actually, I've been on a bit of a losing streak as of late. I dropped from around the top 30 on Showdown's ladder to around 60. Still, that could very well be due to me not being used to Gyarados. Like I said, I still need more testing for this change.

    Regarding U-Turn over Baton Pass: Now, I haven't actually tried this out yet, but I wanted to address this regardless. Baton Pass's purpose is to allow Celebi to safely escape Pursuiters like Tyranitar and Scizor unharmed, which is important for keeping me from being swept by Keldeo and the like. U-Turn does not offer up that same protection, and I usually don't use Baton Pass for the sake of scouting. If I did get rid of Baton Pass, it would preferable be for something like Giga Drain to let Celebi handle Bulky Waters or Thunder Wave to let it cripple threats. Sorry, but I'd rather keep Baton Pass and deal with the Perish Song detail than lose my protection from Pursuiters.

    Well, I think that's about it. Later on I might add a list of notable threats I've found to help simplify rating. Keep the rates coming! I appreciate any feedback you can give!
  12. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    407
    Updated with Notable Threats. Keep the rates coming!
  13. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
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    407
    Updated the team with a few changes:

    Dragonite has been replaced with SubDD Gyarados. (Thanks to Halcyon. for the suggestion)

    Tentacruel now runs Rain Dance over Giga Drain.

    Celebi now runs Giga Drain over Baton Pass.

    That's about it. Keep the rates coming!
    Halcyon. likes this.
  14. Explorer

    Explorer

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2012
    Messages:
    684
    Hate Alakazam huh? Here's your answer (to replace Heatran):

    [​IMG]
    Houndoom (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 Atk/252 SpA/252 Spe
    Nature: Hasty
    -Fire Blast
    -Pursuit
    -Crunch
    -Hidden Power Ice

    Like Heatran, it is immune to Fire-type moves and thus serves as a decent check to Sun teams. It also keeps Hidden Power Ice to nail Dragon-types and Gliscor/Landorus-T for you. However, unlike Heatran, it can trap Psychic-types (most notably the Alakazam you struggle with), and it has a higher base speed, letting it outspeed +1 Dragonite and other Pokemon that Scarf Heatran cannot catch (95 Base speed vs. 76 Base speed FTR). A Latios locked into Psyshock or Hidden Power Fire is also a gateway for Houndoom to enter the scene, and that is a VERY common scenario, removing a key threat to Kyurem since Draco Meteor absolutely destroys it if it is not behind a Substitute.

    Also as a nitpick I think 248 HP/240 Def/20 Spe gives Tentacruel a Stealth Rock number. If I'm right you should change the EV spread to this.

    Otherwise this is a fantastic team and I plan to give it a spin myself. Plus I love the Kyurem picture! Good luck!
  15. chimpact

    chimpact fire nation
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

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    Hey there, I think the simplest way to combat sun and your current weaknesses is to add politoed over heatran on your team. Politoed combats sun in itself by forcing them to bring in ninetales prematurely and often. Adding politoed to your team also frees up a moveslot on tenta to add protect/substitute on there to aid in its survivability.

    Politoed (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 228 SDef / 28 Spd
    Calm Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Protect
    - Refresh

    Refresh gives it utility against opposing rain teams as it can be difficult to wear down without statusing it. It's also incredibly helpful against sun, as ninetales will more than likely try to will o wisp you and you will be able to outlive it if you managed to get a toxic ff. The rest of the moveset is pretty self-explanatr. The speed EVs are to get the jump on other base 70's with no investment and speed creeping scizor/tar.

    I would additionally give Tentacruel a timid nature with 96 speed EVS to outspeed opposing Mamoswine to scald them.
  16. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    407
    Thanks for all the rates everyone! Much appreciated!

    We've got some rather interesting suggestions and comments here, so I'll address them one at a time.

    Houndoom over Heatran: Well, this is definitely something I never would have thought of, I'll give it that. It's a rather unique idea, and I applaud your creativity, Explorer. In terms of checking Alakazam as well as Sun teams at the same time, Houndoom fits the bill. My main problem is what holes will open up in the team in Heatran's absence. As you may or may not have noticed, Heatran is my team's only Steel type. As a result, I rely on it occasionally to take Dragon attacks for me. Luckily, Landorus-T and Celebi are bulky enough to withstand a fair amount of onslaught on their own, but still, a team without a Steel type is really just asking for trouble. As such, I'm not sure about replacing Heatran for Houndoom simply for better checking Alakazam. Actually, given that most Alakazam carry Focus Sashes, Houndoom still runs the same risk as Heatran of failing to KO Alakazam and being hit by a Focus Blast. Sorry, but I don't know if that change will benefit the team too much.

    Politoed over Heatran: You have to admit, this is a pretty significant change. Really, what this is doing is changing my team from a Weatherless Balanced team to something more like a Rain Stall team. Because of that, I'm not too sure about this change. I'm very much a weatherless purist, and I usually prefer to try and find unique and creative ways of thriving in the metagame without having to resort to using weather. Aside from that, the same problems I have with the Houndoom suggestion apply here as well; I don't feel very comfortable replacing my only Steel type. As the team is already slightly vulnerable to DragMag, this isn't, in my mind, a step in the right direction. Also, replacing my only Scarfer for a defensive pokemon is, again, not something I think is a particularly good idea. Politoed does have its benefits, of course, such as providing the all-powerful Rain, but I'm not sure how much my team really needs that as much as it needs Heatran. Again, I'm not sure if this will benefit the team that much.

    On another note, those Tentacruel EVs sound like they could be quite helpful! I'll give them a test run to see how they work. Thanks for the suggestion!

    Regarding DragMag: First of all, thanks for the nice words, ogasian! I'm glad you've found success with my team! Now, as to how I usually deal with DragMag... Well, as I've said earlier, Landorus-T and Celebi are usually bulky enough to handle Outrages and Draco Meteors, respectively. Celebi in particular can take a Meteor and Recover off the damage. Outrages can be a bit more problematic, but between my dual Intimidators and Heatran, I can usually handle it. In large amounts, though, it can be problematic. On the bright side, if Kyurem can set up a Sub at any point, it can usually get an easy free kill. Anyway, thanks for bringing that issue up, and again, I'm glad the team worked so well for you!
    ogasian likes this.

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