Reshiram and Zekrom

[Golden Aether]

Reshiram: Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Earth Power, Heat Wave, Hyper Voice, Outrage, Roost, Sleep Talk, Snore, Tailwind, Zen Headbutt

Zekrom: Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Earth Power, Hyper Voice, Magnet Rise, Outrage, Roost, Signal Beam, Sleep Talk, Snore, Tailwind, ThunderPunch, Zen Headbutt

Standouts include Tailwind and Roost for both, and Magnet Rise for Zekrom.

Reshiram could use Tailwind over Flame Charge to outspeed everything as opposed to getting revenged killed by Scarf Palkia (Ditto will also fail to revenge Reshiram this way). Zekrom could potentially make use of this in a similar manner. Magnet Rise could also be used to suprise a Groudon that attempts to EQ you.

Discuss, ect.

 

[Pokémon Trainer R]

Reshiram @ Life Orb
Trait: Turboblaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Blue Flare
- Dragon Pulse
- Flame Charge
- Roost

A set-up sweeper with reliable recovery and a pair of awesome and completely unresisted Same Type Attack Bonus moves. Now that it has Roost, it has no qualms with holding Life Orb like before, enabling the Flame Charge set to be insanely powerful while still maintaining survivability.

 

[Lugztina]

I'm starting to question Reshiram's usefulness now that White Kyurem is out. Reshiram's sun dependence, slow speed, and weakness to all hazards make him a very high maintenance pokemon to use. Kyurem W, although weak to all hazards, is faster and is less reliant on weather. Really the only thing that Reshiram has over White Kyurem is Blue Flare, which I think Focus Blast on Kyurem can make up for in 2HKOing Blissey and Chansey.

 

[Furai]

The two may outclass each other in one way or another, but hey - pair them up together on a team, and good game world! Reshiram supports Kyurem-W with Tailwind to boost its Speed, whereas Kyurem-W hits like a truck, after Reshiram softened the foe up a bit. Groudon is mandatory, and I honestly think that offensive variants are the best for this role. Theorymon used this against me, and I use 5-0'd, iirc. Not to mention my team is super Kyurem-W weak...

 

[polop]

I'm starting to question Reshiram's usefulness now that White Kyurem is out. Reshiram's sun dependence, slow speed, and weakness to all hazards make him a very high maintenance pokemon to use. Kyurem W, although weak to all hazards, is faster and is less reliant on weather. Really the only thing that Reshiram has over White Kyurem is Blue Flare, which I think Focus Blast on Kyurem can make up for in 2HKOing Blissey and Chansey.

Wow, wait where did we get the idea that Reshiram was useless? His STABS provide perfect neutral coverage, something Kyurem-W lacks, sure Kyurem-W gets Fusion Flare, but its lack of STAB will make it weaker by a large margin. Reshiram also gets Flame Charge and Tailwind to pair up its middling speed, a problem that Kyurem-W can only resolve via Choice Scarf. Choice Specs Blue Flare in the sun remains much stronger then any move Kyurem-W can dish out. The same thing happens with Zekrom and Kyruem-Black, except well Zekrom actually HAS a movepool and can set up all over Ferrothorn.

Reshiram @ Life Orb
Trait: Turboblaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Blue Flare
- Dragon Pulse
- Flame Charge
- Roost

Very interesting set, certainly worth a try at least. The only thing that concerns me with this set is that it attracts Tyranitar -- and to a lesser extent-- Kyogre to ruin your fun. If Kyogre's becoming one of those CM Rest Talk Ogre's Reshiram may have issues but it can always just switch so idk, while Tyranitar can play around with Pursuit and Stone Edge to try to annoy the thing :P. Not saying its unviable just food-for-thought, also I think Draco Meteor and Focus Blast pair up the aformentioned problems. I want to fit them into the set but I'm having a hard time, think the moves could work?

The two may outclass each other in one way or another, but hey - pair them up together on a team, and good game world! Reshiram supports Kyurem-W with Tailwind to boost its Speed, whereas Kyurem-W hits like a truck, after Reshiram softened the foe up a bit. Groudon is mandatory, and I honestly think that offensive variants are the best for this role. Theorymon used this against me, and I use 5-0'd, iirc. Not to mention my team is super Kyurem-W weak...

The only problem I see with that combo is that Chansey will literally stand their and wall both of the two dragons until they run out of fire / Meteors to shoot (barring Specs Flare Crit / Burn Hax), probably could be paired up by having one of them run mix though, but in all honesty, I think Ho-oh is a better partner for Tail Winding.

 

[Jibaku]

Magnet Rise sounds pretty bad on Zek since Groudon will just phaze it away every time it does that. Better just use Draco Meteor and dent it hard. MRise might help slightly against Ground Arceus but don't expect much.

Roost and Tailwind have potential on Zekrom. Although Zekrom has his share of common weaknesses, his resistances and offensive presence can force a good amount of switches, enabling recovery. Really helps against stall since Zekrom is burdened by the numerous sources residual damage there, and there are Pokemon that can't hurt him much. Tailwind is interesting as it patches Zek's middling speed, and a set of Tailwind/Outrage/Bolt Strike/[Dragon Claw/HP Fire/Focus Blast] can probably do fine.

Re: Reshiram
The release of Regenerator Ho-Oh is somewhat of a bad news to Reshiram, who not only strongly competes for the Fire-type slot of the team, but can also check Reshiram relatively well as long as it doesn't have Stone Edge (which it could legitimately have since his STABs already grant perfect coverage and might leave a moveslot open). Kyurem-W and Lati@s are also three new things it has to watch out for. However, to say that Reshiram is outclassed is misguiding. Reshiram still possesses key resistances over White Kyurem, such as 4x to Fire (i dont need to tell you how useful this is), and 2x to Steel (Steelceus check), and its sun boosted Blue Flares deal more damage than anything Kyurem-W can do. Reshiram remains as one of the best sun team counters (which...might have somewhat led to its downfall...), and even moreso now with Tailwind, outrunning Scarf Palkia and Scarf Kyurem-W, and the rare Chlorophyllers. Roost just adds to the pain, enabling it to cope with entry hazards as the enemy struggles to get a safe switch in.

 

[Pokémon Trainer R]

Very interesting set, certainly worth a try at least. The only thing that concerns me with this set is that it attracts Tyranitar -- and to a lesser extent-- Kyogre to ruin your fun. If Kyogre's becoming one of those CM Rest Talk Ogre's Reshiram may have issues but it can always just switch so idk, while Tyranitar can play around with Pursuit and Stone Edge to try to annoy the thing :P. Not saying its unviable just food-for-thought, also I think Draco Meteor and Focus Blast pair up the aformentioned problems. I want to fit them into the set but I'm having a hard time, think the moves could work?

I see. But with those moves though, I believe one may as well use the standard Flame Charge + Blue Flare + Draco Meteor + Stone Edge/Focus Blast/Dragon Pulse/Outrage set, which seeks to maximize coverage to the detriment of Reshiram's survivability. The coverage VS. survivability debate is, I believe, the biggest factor differentiating the Reshiram set I posted and all other Flame Charge Reshiram sets.

As for whoever who said Reshiram is useless now with the advent of Kyurem-W, do realize that, despite the fact that Kyurem-W's Special Attack is 20 points higher than that of Reshiram, there is still not a single move in Kyurem-W's arsenal which comes anywhere close to matching the legendary power of Reshiram's Choice Specs and Sun-boosted Blue Flare. Also, while enjoying the 1.5x Speed boost of a Choice Scarf, Reshiram in the Sun can fire off a Blue Flare whose power is very similar to that of Kyurem-W's Choice Specs Draco Meteor, its strongest attack. In other words, Kyurem-W can only be either insanely powerful (by holding a Choice Specs) or insanely fast (by holding a Choice Scarf), but not both. But Choice Scarf Reshiram is almost as fast as Choice Scarf Kyurem-W,while in the Sun it is simultaneously almost as powerful as Choice Specs Kyurem-W. And with Choice Specs, Reshiram's Blue Flare in the Sun far outclasses any of Kyurem-W's moves in power. This, I believe, is an immense advantage Reshiram holds over Kyurem-W, which is why it is unsafe to say that the latter renders the former useless. Also, keep in mind that Reshiram's most powerful attack can be used again and again in succession, while Kyurem-W's cannot due to the extremely inconvenient Special Attack drop. This is especially important when comparing the two Pokémon's Choice Scarf sets, as it allows Choice Scarf Reshiram to sweep with far greater ease than Choice Scarf Kyurem-W.

 

[pwnage77]

okay i'm not gonna say that i'm gonna contribute a lot here but i am just gonna say a few stuff about zekrom vs kyurem-b.

First off, i think people will use kyurem-b a lot more than zekrom (hell zekrom is already useful, what more is kyurem-b). but let's not talk about raw power and speed. first off, zekrom still holds the huge advantage of typing that isn't weak to stealth rock meaning it can switch in and out with impunity. second, zekrom gets volt switch which we all know, is something that many choiced pokes would kill for. with this, i can say that zekrom would be a better choiced pokemon, if not the better wall breaker. also, zekrom has the ability to set up on ferrothorns, something that kyurem-b can't do if ferro has gyro ball.

 

[Bossness]

okay i'm not gonna say that i'm gonna contribute a lot here but i am just gonna say a few stuff about zekrom vs kyurem-b.

First off, i think people will use kyurem-b a lot more than zekrom (hell zekrom is already useful, what more is kyurem-b). but let's not talk about raw power and speed. first off, zekrom still holds the huge advantage of typing that isn't weak to stealth rock meaning it can switch in and out with impunity. second, zekrom gets volt switch which we all know, is something that many choiced pokes would kill for. with this, i can say that zekrom would be a better choiced pokemon, if not the better wall breaker. also, zekrom has the ability to set up on ferrothorns, something that kyurem-b can't do if ferro has gyro ball.

I think you mean this the other way around as shown my the rest of your post. BTW go to the Black Kyurem and White Kyurem thread. Most people agree that Zekrom is better than Black Kyurem. Those who dont cant back it up with good points. Also, I personally believe that Zekrom is better than the other fifth gen uber dragons - as shown by the PO server usage statistics.
http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/Wifi%20Ubers/index.html
Its at #12 sitting one spot below Giratina-O.

 

[Bossness]

I'm sorry, what? I could say the same for those who stubborn enough to think that Zekrom actually performs better than Kyurem-B against Groudon, Arceus-Ground and any non-steel wall, that 95 base speed doesn't matter and that Zekrom is nowhere near Kyurem-B's level as a mixed attacker.
Please do not post random fallacies whilst dismissing all the VALID points that have been made as "not good".

Zekrom simply lacks the speed and good special attacking moves to run an efficient mixed set. It's amazingly easy to force out or revenge kill after Draco Meteor's Sp.Atk drop, a problem that Kyurem-B doesn't have.

Oh so Zekrom has no special attacking moves? Its forced out after Draco Meteor? Please tell me how Kyurem-B is different. Its Kyurem-B that is forced out more easily. Whats it gonna do after Draco Meteor? Use Outrage on steels? Zekrom can still use Bolt Strike. What are non-steel walls that Kyurem-B deals with better? Who are they anyway? Arceus Formes? Well Zekrom does better against them. You are right Zekrom is nowhere near Kyurem-B's low potential as a mixed attacker - Zekrom is better. Nobody said that Zekrom deals with Groudon and Arceus-Ground better. Zekrom lures in Groudon while Kyurem-B forces Groudon out.
If you want to prove that Kyurem-B is better, please post its set and evs and moves included. 95 base speed matters? Oh, then Kyurem-B must use a speed boosting nature to make it actually worthwhile which means that its attack stat will be a max of 439 which is only 1 point higher than Zekrom's. Kyurem-B's Outrage is the only good physical move it has and thats why its more easily revenge killed. The other noteworthy attack option is Fusion Bolt. Zekrom's Bolt Strike is 2 times stronger than Kyurem-B's Fusion Bolt.

 

[Jibaku]

I see you guys moved the argument over here. It was perfectly fine in the other thread x_x

Rayquaza_ I have explained why Kyurem-B is not superior in the other thread. Like I said, Kyurem-B simply lacks raw power (except for one locking move, which is needed to dent several Arceus formes and Chansey), suffers from the SR weak, has less switch in opportunities in general, and some other issues. And frankly, Zekrom doesn't need anything more in his special attacking package because his main coverage move is a STAB 130 base power physical electric move.

 

[Furai]

Hi can you guys keep it low? I don't mind these discussions at all, in fact I appreciate them, but slow things down. Don't use an aggressive, preaching tone. Thanks.

 

[Pokémon Trainer R]

I think you mean this the other way around as shown my the rest of your post. BTW go to the Black Kyurem and White Kyurem thread. Most people agree that Zekrom is better than Black Kyurem. Those who dont cant back it up with good points. Also, I personally believe that Zekrom is better than the other fifth gen uber dragons - as shown by the PO server usage statistics.
http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/Wifi%20Ubers/index.html
Its at #12 sitting one spot below Giratina-O.

I personally believe that the best Generation V dragon is Kyurem-W, followed closely by Reshiram, due to the former being the greatest anti-lead in the entire tier (with Choice Specs, it is able to effortlessly demolish Dialga, Kyogre, Groudon, Forretress and Tyranitar, which are all extremely common leads), and the sheer, destructive power of the latter's Sun-boosted Blue Flare attack.

 

[Bossness]

I personally believe that the best Generation V dragon is Kyurem-W, followed closely by Reshiram, due to the former being the greatest anti-lead in the entire tier (with Choice Specs, it is able to effortlessly demolish Dialga, Kyogre, Groudon, Forretress and Tyranitar, which are all extremely common leads), and the sheer, destructive power of the latter's Sun-boosted Blue Flare attack.

I wont disagree with that. Kyurem-W is definitely the best. However Zekrom is the 3rd best if not second. Its debatable if you ask me. Even though Reshiram has unresisted coverage, on the choice sets it sucks when you predict wrong and hit the steel with Draco Meteor and hit Kyogre/Dragons(admittedly even some of the dragons take huge damage) with Blue Flare. Reshiram is also Stealth Rock weak so it also sucks to be forced out.

 

[Go10]

I personally believe that the best Generation V dragon is Kyurem-W, followed closely by Reshiram, due to the former being the greatest anti-lead in the entire tier (with Choice Specs, it is able to effortlessly demolish Dialga, Kyogre, Groudon, Forretress and Tyranitar, which are all extremely common leads), and the sheer, destructive power of the latter's Sun-boosted Blue Flare attack.

Tyranitar anti-lead always wear a focus sash, able to 2HKO everything without the need to lock himself on anything, he is the best anti-lead in the metagame. You're right about Wkyurem, but Reshiram isnt the second best dragon at all, Zekrom has access to a lot of tools which let him be far more useful than Ram (one of them is his neutral weakness to SR).

 

[Pokémon Trainer R]

Tyranitar leads hardly ever wear a Focus Sash. In fact, out of the countless Tyranitar leads I have battled, there is only one instance in which I have seen one wearing a Focus Sash, and that was someone I recently battled on the Reborn Server, who was using the team your signature links to. Also, Tyranitar being able to destroy all Pokémon in two hits while always being able to survive a hit itself with Focus Sash hardly makes it the best anti-lead, as most Pokémon are faster than it and can take it out in two hits before it even gets the chance to launch its second attack anyway.

Anyway, all the dragons in the Übers tier have their own unique advantages over one another, which is why every single one of them sees usage, as none of them is completely better than any other. So I guess the question of which dragon is the best in Generation V (or even which dragon is the best in Übers) is ultimately just a matter of opinion. I personally just find Reshiram's amazing pair of unresisted Same Type Attack Bonus moves, the devastating power of its Sun-boosted Blue Flare, and its ability to sweep with Flame Charge to be a lot more appealing than Zekrom's Stealth Rock neutrality, mixed attacking prowess, and ability to destroy stall-oriented teams with its Substitute + Hone Claws set, which is why I consider Reshiram to be better than Zekrom.

I wont disagree with that. Kyurem-W is definitely the best. However Zekrom is the 3rd best if not second. Its debatable if you ask me. Even though Reshiram has unresisted coverage, on the choice sets it sucks when you predict wrong and hit the steel with Draco Meteor and hit Kyogre/Dragons(admittedly even some of the dragons take huge damage) with Blue Flare. Reshiram is also Stealth Rock weak so it also sucks to be forced out.

The exact same thing applies to Choice Band/Choice Scarf Zekrom though, as the opponent could switch their Steel-type Pokémon into its Outrage, or their Groudon into its Bolt Strike. Aside from Reshiram's unresisted coverage, the biggest thing that Zekrom lacks compared to Reshiram is the access to an absurdly powerful weather-boosted attack, because as I already explained before, a Choice Scarf Reshiram in the Sun is basically like a Pokémon that is holding both a Choice Scarf and a Choice Specs at the same time, making it an incredible sweeper. But I do agree that Zekrom is definitely the third best dragon of Generation V though, mostly due to how devastating its Substitute + Hone Claws set can be, especially against slow and defensive teams (as well as the fact that the only Generation V Über dragon besides Kyurem-W, Reshiram and Zekrom is Kyurem-B, so it doesn't really have much competition for its title anyway).

 

[Go10]

We're talking about anti-lead right ? So yeah, Tar anti-lead always wear a sash, your battles doesnt matter and refering some arguments to the ladder is p.bad since there is very few people who play seriously on it (charizard, props to you).

Pokemon faster than him who can take 2 hit arent a true lead anymore so Tar did his job (and there is really no lead able to do that beside Groudon who invest like a crazy in speed). Also, there is really a few mons able to do that. Tar was in DP, and still in BW, the best anti-lead you can have. Anyway, that was off topic.

 

[Bossness]

Reshiram @ Life Orb
Trait: Turboblaze
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Roost
- Blue Flare
- Dragon Pulse


This is the new Reshiram set I have used and it works great with its unresisted coverage. With substitue and roost, the opponent cannot take advantage of Reshiram's normal flaws - stealth rock weak, wrong prediction, draco meteor stat drop and Status. This should be the substitute set onsite

 

[Pokémon Trainer R]

We're talking about anti-lead right ? So yeah, Tar anti-lead always wear a sash, your battles doesnt matter and refering some arguments to the ladder is p.bad since there is very few people who play seriously on it (charizard, props to you).

Pokemon faster than him who can take 2 hit arent a true lead anymore so Tar did his job (and there is really no lead able to do that beside Groudon who invest like a crazy in speed). Also, there is really a few mons able to do that. Tar was in DP, and still in BW, the best anti-lead you can have. Anyway, that was off topic.

The skill level of the average ladderer does not matter. The fact is, there is only one instance in which I have actually seen someone using a Focus Sash Tyranitar (lead, anti-lead or not) out of the countless battles I've had on numerous ladders across multiple servers. As such, I have every reason to not believe in the claim that "Tar anti-lead always wear a sash". Maybe you believe that an anti-lead Tyranitar at the hands of a skilled trainer should always wear a Focus Sash, but that doesn't change the reality that Focus Sash Tyranitar is almost non-existent on any ladder, and therefore, until a significant number of people start actually using Focus Sash Tyranitar on the ladder, Focus Blast on anti-lead Kyurem-W is perfectly viable.

Similarly, we all know that Arceus is the best Pokémon in the game and every team should be able to handle it. But if, hypothetically, for some reasons no one decided to use Arceus on the ladder in spite of that, then a team that cannot handle Arceus would actually be viable on the ladder. It is the exact same story here.

Kyogre, a very common lead, easily outruns Tyranitar and takes it out with two hits, while surviving any of Tyranitar's attacks barring a critical hit. Same with Groudon and Aura Sphere Dialga. But the main reason why I do not think Tyranitar is anywhere near as good as Kyurem-W as an anti-lead is because unlike the latter, the former cannot take down Dialga, Groudon and Forretress before they get Stealth Rock up. And if they do, they have pretty much already completed one of their major duties anyway. Being able to prevent the opponent's lead from setting up Stealth Rock by being able to KO them before they can use that move is a huge part of an excellent anti-lead.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

Not necessarily, the tournament scene can be a reflection of what you believe the pokemon 'metagame' to be as well. Given, the majority of matches take place on the ladder, but you don't have to ladder (a lot of people don't) to be a good player.

 

[Pokémon Trainer R]

That's true, but to my knowledge, most people who participate in tournaments are also ladderers anyway, and out of a desire to win, they would likely use their most successful team on the ladder in tournaments, so I don't think that the "metagame" in tournaments would be very different compared to that among the top trainers on a ladder. But in any case, I don't see any evidence of many, let alone all Tyranitar anti-leads holding Focus Sash in the tournament scene, or anywhere else either.

 

[Go10]

The fact is, there is only one instance in which I have actually seen someone using a Focus Sash Tyranitar (lead, anti-lead or not) out of the countless battles I've had on numerous ladders across multiple servers. As such, I have every reason to not believe in the claim that "Tar anti-lead always wear a sash".

The fact is in BW, people tend to think that the lead doesnt exist anymore du to the team preview; they just throw the most suited pokemon in the lead position after they see the opponent's team. That explain why you dont see any anti-lead, not just Tyranitar, there is really no true anti-lead who's used. For example, did you ever saw Arceus anti-lead ? I didnt, and even thought I never saw him, I can tell you he's always used with Magic Coat. What about Rayquaza anti-lead ? Tyranitar is in the same boat, the anti-lead is always wearing a focus sash because he has to take some hit he can't; sometimes the lum berry is used but not that much since it's useful only against darkrai who isn't used a lot in the lead position. So yeah, you can't trust me, I dont really care to be honest, but I can tell you for sure that he has a Sash when used as an anti-lead (not just lead, it seems you're misunderstanding my post).

Kyogre, a very common lead, easily outruns Tyranitar and takes it out with two hits, while surviving any of Tyranitar's attacks barring a critical hit. Same with Groudon and Aura Sphere Dialga. But the main reason why I do not think Tyranitar is anywhere near as good as Kyurem-W as an anti-lead is because unlike the latter, the former cannot take down Dialga, Groudon and Forretress before they get Stealth Rock up. And if they do, they have pretty much already completed one of their major duties anyway. Being able to prevent the opponent's lead from setting up Stealth Rock by being able to KO them before they can use that move is a huge part of an excellent anti-lead.

Kyogre outspeed Tyranitar in only one case : when he's used with an offensive set, the Choice. Tyranitar can easily put him under the 50% with Stone Edge and switch on a resistance. Also, when you send Tyranitar, you can immediately know what type of Ogre you're facing due to the weather because the defensive variant is slower than you. Groudon is the only one who can outspeed you but he need 116 EVs in speed to outrun you lol. He'll never invest that much, same goes for Dialga (who use Fire Blast most of the time, even under rain, not Aura Sphere; Tar dgaf about Aura Sphere anyway). Kyurem-W can kill them before they setup SR, ok, I'll give you that. Beside Groudon and Arceus, Tyranitar 2HKO/OHKO everything, if they have the balls to setup their SR, not only they lose their lead, but they have to take another hit to break the sash, who really hurt, or you can setup your own. Tyranitar allow you to begin the battle with a 6-5 most of the time, with SR. That was the case in DP, and still the same in BW (but less powerful since Arceus's here now).

I used every anti-lead existing atm since i'm an offensive player, and I can assure that Tyranitar is the best one. Test it, I can tell that you didnt, theorymoning isnt enough.