Restricted Legends Tiering Discussion

Serapis

Losing my way to Victory
#1
Welcome! In this thread, we as a community will rank every one of the new Restricted Legendary Pokemon into "tiers" based on how well they perform in the current metagame. This thread is NOT to put Pokemon into strict tiers (i.e., based on usage), but you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in VGC16 and what tier they should fall under. The general idea of the topic is to rank each Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats. Think of this as a guideline as to what's common and/or good in the metagame and what to watch out for when building teams.

Voting will happen when there isn't a general consensus on where a Pokemon should be tiered. Otherwise if there is a good amount of people nominating a tier change and it sounds good, it'll be edited in without having to go through voting (copied from lucariojr's post for 2015 rankings with slight updates). (still looking for non massive Primal Sprites)

S-Rank
Reserved for the top threats in the VGC16 metagame. The Pokemon in this tier are able to perform multiple roles to tremendous effect, whilst having few to no flaws. Support Pokemon in this tier can easily create free turns for their teammates without creating clear openings for the opponent. Any flaws that these Pokemon have can be taken care of with little to no team support.
Primal Groudon
Xerneas

A-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that function very well within the current VGC16 metagame. The Pokemon in this tier are either able to perform multiple roles to great effect, or execute one extremely well. Support Pokemon in this tier can create free turns, but not as easily as those in the S Rank.The flaws that the Pokemon in this tier may have are usually mitigated by their positive traits, or with minimal team support.
A Rank
Primal Kyogre
Mega Rayquaza
Rayquaza

A- Rank
Ho-Oh
Palkia
Mega-Mewtwo-X

B-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that fit well in the VGC16 metagame, but they have notable flaws that prevent them from filling their role to the fullest extent. The Pokemon in this tier are either predictable, require some team support to work to it's full potential, or are at disadvantageous match-ups against some common threats. The flaws that the Pokemon in this tier have are mostly mitigated by their positive traits.
B Rank
Dialga
Giratina-O
Kyurem-W
Mega-Mewtwo-Y
Mewtwo
Yveltal

B- Rank
Zekrom
Kyurem-B
Giratina-A
Kyogre
Groudon

C-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that can work okay within the VGC16 metagame. However, they either have crippling flaws that prevent consistent performance or require much team support to work on most teams. Pokemon that have a few niches in the metagame but are mainly outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon also belong here.
C Rank
Lugia

C- Rank
Reshiram

D-Rank
Many niche Pokemon can be squeezed into VGC16 teams due to a certain move or ability (niche Wide Guard or Intimidate users, for example). Many Pokemon fit here, but none of them have a place in the metagame solid enough to have a special spot on the rankings.
D Rank
Kyurem
Zygarde
 
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#4
okay like I'm going to ignore every other grammar mistake and the fact the images are so big but for A- Rank you didn't put a space between the - and rank and this is hurting me
 
#5
From what I have heard, Yveltal should be higher than C rank. Mewtwo Mega formes might be a tad high, but idk how they really play but they seem to be not as good as this list makes them to be. I have used Kyurem-B, and it seems to be pretty good, so I'd maybe move it up. Btw sorry for the lack of reasoning for the changes, but it is difficult to give a reasoning when we frankly still have almost no clue about which Pokemon are good and bad. On a side note, I would assume the intention of this thread is to have just a simple viability ranking to discuss the new Pokemon until the proper viability ranking thread goes up?
 

Serapis

Losing my way to Victory
#6
Ksh13, you're mostly right. The only thing I want to add is that even when the official thread goes this will still be somewhat relevant because of the restrictions existing on these Legends. Since you can only have two of them per team, understanding how legends stack up against each other without other Polemon cluttering up the list will be useful.
 
#7
Zygarde in D? I'm cool with that. I'll be happy inflicting misery and despair to the world with a more defensive Garchomp with the godsend of Glare and Coil.
If you thought I did crazy shit with Arbok, just wait until Zygarde happens. But leave it in D for now, I'm not bumping it until after I play with it.
 
#8
B- --> C

Black Kyurem is outclassed by White Kyurem. If Black Kyurem had a reliable physical Ice-type STAB it would have its niche, but White Kyurem just does its job better. Black Kyurem has to run a mixed or special set to take advantage of its Ice STAB (Ice Beam), where as White Kyurem can solely run special. White Kyurem is better because it can fulfill any role of Black Kyurem (besides Fusion Bolt w/ Scarf) and has more nuking power in the form of powerful STAB Draco Meteor.

A --> B-

Rayquaza is outclassed by its Mega counter part. The only niche has is its ability Air Lock, which allows it to Waterfall Primal Groudon for an OHKO. Otherwise it is slower, frailer, and less powerful than Mega Rayquaza.

C- --> B

Palkia is p versatile. It can operate as either a niche Trick Room setter or a powerful Rain attacker. At the very least it should be B-. I don't know why it is rated so low.
 
#9
I'll be back to make arguments for Yveltal to move up once I play with it a bit more, but Yveltal's supposed to be pretty good against boosting mons, with Foul Play. Additionally its ability makes it a great partner and can stop quite a few of the new threats like Mega Mewtwo-Y and Giratina since DArk typed moves get an added bonus. For now I won't give a specific ranking, but I'm confident I'll be back to request a boost for it
 
#12
Im not seeing POgre anywhere whats up with that?
It's there; just it's sprite isn't... for some reason.
Edit: ninjas :(

On the note of Kyogre though; why are non-Primal Kyogre and Groudon ranked? Is there something I'm missing...? All I can really think is that they can keep rain/sun up for abusers of it even after they leave the battlefield, but that seems such an absurdly small niche to be as high as B- especially when there's other legends much more worth using (remember, only two legends allowed on a team), their Primal forms outclass them in every way and have infinite weather, and said primals cancel out the weather as well as Kyogre's STAB. I'm really not seeing why they're B-.
 
#13
It's there; just it's sprite isn't... for some reason.
Edit: ninjas :(

On the note of Kyogre though; why are non-Primal Kyogre and Groudon ranked? Is there something I'm missing...? All I can really think is that they can keep rain/sun up for abusers of it even after they leave the battlefield, but that seems such an absurdly small niche to be as high as B- especially when there's other legends much more worth using (remember, only two legends allowed on a team), their Primal forms outclass them in every way and have infinite weather, and said primals cancel out the weather as well as Kyogre's STAB. I'm really not seeing why they're B-.
They can hold other items; ScarfOgre for example is a very dangerous thing. Yes, they're 95% outclassed by Primals, but by no means are the base form of Kyogre and Groudon weak enough to be in the realm of unfused Kyurem.
Probably won't see non-Primal Groudon at all, and ScarfOgre probably won't be a thing either, but they're still on par with things like Mewtwo in and of themselves.
 
#14
I agree with ProjectTitan on this, but there's also the fact that if they have the opposing primal weather you don't necessarily need to bring your regular weather that gets bopped.
I would also like to think that Scarf Kyogre/regular groudon would be really neat in this meta, not incredibly common but definitely a useable thing (and by "useable thing" I do not mean something like Mence in VGC '15, but I also don't mean something like Pachirisu in '14 if you know what i mean).
 

Serapis

Losing my way to Victory
#15
Kurona, I can't seem to find mini sprites for the Primals. If you know where I could get some, I'd update the initial post immediate. With that said, and to address your question about Kyogre and Groudon, ProjectTitan313 has the right idea, especially about ScarfOgre. In fact, the GS Cup tournament format that we currently have has been held as an official tournament before as a side event at the World Championships this past year. Scarf Kyogre win the event with Cloud Nine support, so it's the most successful legend in this format in terms of officially conducted tournaments. Sure, it's not great but it has a niche. As for Groudon. . . yeah, it'll probably be dropping some.

B- --> C
Black Kyurem is outclassed by White Kyurem. If Black Kyurem had a reliable physical Ice-type STAB it would have its niche, but White Kyurem just does its job better. Black Kyurem has to run a mixed or special set to take advantage of its Ice STAB (Ice Beam), where as White Kyurem can solely run special. White Kyurem is better because it can fulfill any role of Black Kyurem (besides Fusion Bolt w/ Scarf) and has more nuking power in the form of powerful STAB Draco Meteor.

A --> B-
Rayquaza is outclassed by its Mega counter part. The only niche has is its ability Air Lock, which allows it to Waterfall Primal Groudon for an OHKO. Otherwise it is slower, frailer, and less powerful than Mega Rayquaza.

C- --> B
Palkia is p versatile. It can operate as either a niche Trick Room setter or a powerful Rain attacker. At the very least it should be B-. I don't know why it is rated so low.
Kyurem B is something I agree with, though I'm going to wait till tomorrow to move it to see if anybody else has something to say about it.

For Rayquaza. . . it not only has Air Lock (which is quite arguably a better ability than Delta Stream in a format where pretty much every team should have a Primal) but it also doesn't take up your team's Mega slot. Mega-Rayquaza is the stronger of the two, undeniably, but it restricts your team's options. Whereas you can have 2 Legends + a Mega, Mega Ray means that your Mega is a Legend so you have 2 of the heavy hitters instead of the normal 3. Sure, Dual Mega is a thing but that puts unneeded stress on teams. Furthermore, Rayquaza would mainly be for the support it can provide. With that said, A does seem a bit high and it would probably bit better in B-.

Palkia is another one that I mostly agree with. I put the list together quickly to start discussion so things might be a bit out of place, but so far this thread has received plenty of responses and it's not even a day old so I don't consider it to be an issue. B rank does sound reasonable, so baring objections it'll be bumped up tomorrow.
 
#18
I think Kyurem-W should be bumped up to A- at least. It has an amazing Special movepool with Draco Meteor, Ice Beam, Earth Power, Psychic, Fusion Flare, Shadow Ball, and Flash Cannon. It is also a pretty good check to Groudon, having a good chance to OHKO max HP/Attack variants. It can effectively run either Life Orb if you want versatility, or Choice Specs if you just want to hit everything stupidly hard. Its 125/90/100 defenses, while not amazing, aren't too bad either. Given Tailwind support, it becomes nigh unstoppable. The only thing it lacks is a good spread move outside of Blizzard.

Calcs:

252+ SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 195-230 (107.7 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 195-231 (111.4 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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#19
Kurona, I can't seem to find mini sprites for the Primals. If you know where I could get some, I'd update the initial post immediate. With that said, and to address your question about Kyogre and Groudon, ProjectTitan313 has the right idea, especially about ScarfOgre. In fact, the GS Cup tournament format that we currently have has been held as an official tournament before as a side event at the World Championships this past year. Scarf Kyogre win the event with Cloud Nine support, so it's the most successful legend in this format in terms of officially conducted tournaments. Sure, it's not great but it has a niche. As for Groudon. . . yeah, it'll probably be dropping some.



Kyurem B is something I agree with, though I'm going to wait till tomorrow to move it to see if anybody else has something to say about it.

For Rayquaza. . . it not only has Air Lock (which is quite arguably a better ability than Delta Stream in a format where pretty much every team should have a Primal) but it also doesn't take up your team's Mega slot. Mega-Rayquaza is the stronger of the two, undeniably, but it restricts your team's options. Whereas you can have 2 Legends + a Mega, Mega Ray means that your Mega is a Legend so you have 2 of the heavy hitters instead of the normal 3. Sure, Dual Mega is a thing but that puts unneeded stress on teams. Furthermore, Rayquaza would mainly be for the support it can provide. With that said, A does seem a bit high and it would probably bit better in B-.

Palkia is another one that I mostly agree with. I put the list together quickly to start discussion so things might be a bit out of place, but so far this thread has received plenty of responses and it's not even a day old so I don't consider it to be an issue. B rank does sound reasonable, so baring objections it'll be bumped up tomorrow.
I really appreciate your thoughtful response, and agree with you on Rayquaza-Regular. It'll probably find a good home in the B rank.

Anyways, more suggestions.

B- --> A-

Ho-Oh is v good. It has a great mix of offenses and defenses, able to check Primal Don (as long as it doesn't have a rock move, which it probably will lol) and Xerneas, and threaten physical attackers with a burn from Sacred Fire. What's more, it can provide speed control in the form of Tailwind. If Rayquaza didn't exist it'd probably be the best Flying-type attacker in the meta.

C- --> D

This thing is garbage.

EDIT:

C --> B

Yveltal is powerful and unpredictable. It gets an assortment of good STABs, namely Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Dark Pulse, and Oblivion Wing, and also gets good supportive moves such as Tailwind and Taunt. Its biggest flaw is that it gets rekt by Xerneas.
 
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#20
So? What kind of moveset are you guys using that makes Primal Groudon (one of) the best Pokémon in the metagame?
I've been playing around with the Primal Groudon/Xerneas/Mega Kangaskhan/Cresselia core for the past few days and in my experience Precipice Blades is unreliable garbage.
Double Battles with Ubers is so fast-paced, that a single miss can easily cost you the game.
 
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Lord Wallace

Hentai Connoiseur
is a Tiering Contributor
#21

B -> A-
Hella bulky, hella strong, can beat both Primals, beats Mewtwo, beats Kanga, beats Lando, immune to Fake Out, Knock Off only has 65 BP on it, Shadow Force breaks Protect, and it can support the team with Will-o-Wisp.
Xerneas keeps it from going any higher imo (and even then it can live an unboosted Dazzle and do like 60 back with Shadow Force) but it's still pretty disgraceful that this thing is ranked the same as regular Mewtwo and it's inferior Altered form.

So? What kind of moveset are you guys using that makes Primal Groudon (one of) the best Pokémon in the metagame?
I've been playing around with the Primal Groudon/Xerneas/Mega Kangaskhan/Cresselia core for the past few days and in my experience Precipice Blades is unreliable garbage.
Double Battles with Ubers is so fast-paced, that a single miss can easily cost you the game.
Use Gravity you nub [:
 

Lord Wallace

Hentai Connoiseur
is a Tiering Contributor
#23
Yeah... that's not going to happen. I run Skill Swap Cresselia to neutralize Groudon's Ground-type weakness. Gravity would be really counterproductive.
Gravity makes Precipice Blades a lot more accurate and it nullifies Ground immunities, imo thats a lot more useful than neutralizing Groudon's Ground weakness considering Cress beats Lando-T anyway and it's on you to speed creep other Groudon or run Icy Wind Cress to slow them down. It's just a matter of doing more with a single turn.
 
#24
Gravity makes Precipice Blades a lot more accurate and it nullifies Ground immunities, imo thats a lot more useful than neutralizing Groudon's Ground weakness considering Cress beats Lando-T anyway and it's on you to speed creep other Groudon or run Icy Wind Cress to slow them down. It's just a matter of doing more with a single turn.
Fair enough, I'll try it your way.
That being said, Skill Swap has been very useful so far. Reactivating Desolate Land, swapping Intimidate around, stealing Parental Bond or Huge Power... there is so much shenanigans to do with it at the moment.
 
#25
So? What kind of moveset are you guys using that makes Primal Groudon (one of) the best Pokémon in the metagame?
I've been playing around with the Primal Groudon/Xerneas/Mega Kangaskhan/Cresselia core for the past few days and in my experience Precipice Blades is unreliable garbage.
Double Battles with Ubers is so fast-paced, that a single miss can easily cost you the game.
SUB DON (Groudon) @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Protect

Special Don is p cool because it wins a mirror match. Also, Fire Blast is fucking powerful. I've found Substitute to be more far more useful in the third moveslot rather than a coverage move like Rock Slide, Iron Head, or Dragon Claw. Protect is staple. Alternatively you can run PBlades/EQ and a Brave Nature over Earth Power, but Fire Blast, Substitute, and Protect should remain the same.